Here's what I don't get about the stand your ground crap

[cali]

how does stand your ground translate to follow someone around in your car and then get out and confront them when you've been told by the police that they don't want you to do that?

I just don't get how "stand your ground" applies in the Trayvon Martin case.

[alferoutou]

1. IMHO It does not

I am not a lawyer but I did live in the South for many years and in the South shooting people of color is sort of a past time for some almost a regional sport, just like football, part of that whole Southern Heritage thingy.

[freshwest]

9. Yes, the good old days the GOP wants to bring back. With years of hate radio, they normalized it.

It was this sort of shoot anything that's alive to improve your aim, which is a foulness of itself, teaching people to have a lack of empathy and respect for life as a whole, denying ones own vulnerable nature. The first part is dehumanization, which the RW pushes daily.

Those were also the days when picking up a gay guy and beating him up was just something that the good old boys did when they came to town over the weekend. Go further back in time, and white frat boys would get their initiation in their fraternity by finding, kidnapping and raping black girls.

Somewhat like what Rand Paul and his friends did in college to a white girl, hauled her off and scared her to death. Just a prank, you know, like Abu Graib later, according to Rush.

There has been a long history of white criminal behavior, actually excusing political and personalized terrorism, that has never been acknowledged for what it is. I remember those days very well, but it's the kind of thing you try to forget and move on.

Not possible for those affected, unless they become one of the enlightened people like Shirley Sherrod. That was the part that Breitbard edited out of his smear piece, because that wouldn't promote the white victimhood meme.

[alferoutou]

10. It is all part and parcel of the Southern Strategy

I am over well over 50 now and I remember what was considered normal down south when I was young.

Sadly many parts of the South are regressing, I know it is not like they ever progressed in the first place.

LBJ was right when he said the South would be lost for a generation, saldy it is looking like it will be 2 - 3 generations well beyond my lifetime.

[DrDan]

13. our obsession with guns is a national disgrace - but don't let that stand in the

way of your region bashing.

Castle laws have been enacted throughout the U.S. - not just the south. - to include no duty to retreat.

"Southern Strategy" - ridiculous.

[alferoutou]

14. Stating FACTS is not Region Bashing

I lived in the South for many years and saw things first hand including how non-whites are treated and how justice does not work for people of color in the South.

If you love the South so much what have you done or are doing to change the image?

[DrDan]

16. are you saying you have never seen that anywhere else? Just the South?

Changing the image starts with challenging attitudes like yours - like this is a regional characteristic.

[alferoutou]

18. In my direct experience

It is way more prevalent in the South than in other places in America I have lived.

Until the people that live in the South admit the racism is a problem change will not happen.

The accusation of region bashing is IMHO nothing but a deflection to keep from addressing the systemic problem of racism in the south in the first place.

[DrDan]

20. and to emphasize racism in the South and ignore it elsewhere does NOTHING

to address the problem. It just deflects the extent of the problem.

[alferoutou]

22. OK you win

Da South is 100% racism free!



Happy now?

[DrDan]

32. I never said that - now did I

just saying it is a nation-wide problem.

Let's not make stuff up, ok?

[Mojorabbit]

34. I live in the south

but I have never seen racism like I saw in Pittsburgh where my husband is from. I was appalled. It is not just a southern problem.

[Texasgal]

47. When I visited Philly

I was appalled by the outright racism there. I was shocked actually!

I'm from Texas and while I've seen it, I have never seen it like I did in Philly.

[arely staircase]

48. actually the "facts" you stated were that

shooting blacks was a "past time" (sic) for some down here. and one way he/she is trying to change the image is by calling bs on bs.

[DrDan]

11. quite a generalization, don't you think

[alferoutou]

15. Nope not at all

I live up North and when I go south one of the first questions people ask me is how can you stand living with N____ers as your neighbors.

So if you want to call it a generalization go right a head but facts are facts and I am living it now.

[DrDan]

17. that word and that attitude are never, ever demonstrated in your part of the country

must be nice to live in your Camelot.

And yes - I want to call it a generalization.

[alferoutou]

19. Yes it is nice in Camelot

Call it what ever you want I don't care.

I know the TRUTH and the FACTS.

I don't live in denial and pretend things don't happen.

[DrDan]

21. I never claimed they do not happen - just that they happen nationally - something

you choose to ignore.

[alferoutou]

23. It happens nationally but more common and frequent in the south then in other places

but that is what happens when racism is part of the southern culture.

[fascisthunter]

45. I Agree.... it's strange how much denial there is regarding racism being more prevalent in the south

sure, bigotry exists up north too, but not as much.

[DirkGently]

26. Sounds like you spend too much of your time visiting racists.

I live in the South, with all kinds of neighbors, and have rarely met anyone who talks the way you describe.

Your facts are not THE facts, whatever you think, and whether the multi-racial shooter in this case was motivated by racism or not "the South" is not the primary problem.

[arely staircase]

44. i got the same question in newark

after that the guy went on and on about "the waps." that seems to be an enlightened northern term of endearment for italian americans.

[Ian David]

31. So is having sex with farm animals...

Bizarre Sex Habits of The Extreme Right-Wing
Reported by Ellen - May 6, 2005

Last night, anti-abortion extremist Neal Horsley was a guest on The Alan Colmes Show, a FOX News radio program. The topic was an interesting one - whether or not an internet service provider should allow Horsley to post the names of abortion doctors on his website. Horsley does that as a way of targeting them and one doctor has been killed. In the course of the interview, however, Colmes asked Horsley about his background, including a statement that he had admitted to engaging in homosexual and bestiality sex. Updated with audio!

At first, Horsley laughed and said, "Just because it's printed in the media, people jump to believe it."

"Is it true?" Colmes asked.

"Hey, Alan, if you want to accuse me of having sex when I was a fool, I did everything that crossed my mind that looked like I..."

AC: "You had sex with animals?"

NH: "Absolutely. I was a fool. When you grow up on a farm in Georgia, your first girlfriend is a mule."

AC: "I'm not so sure that that is so."

NH: "You didn't grow up on a farm in Georgia, did you?"

AC: "Are you suggesting that everybody who grows up on a farm in Georgia has a mule as a girlfriend?"

NH: It has historically been the case. You people are so far removed from the reality... Welcome to domestic life on the farm..."

More:
http://www.newshounds.us/2005/05/06/bizarre_sex_habits_of_the_extreme_rightwing.php

[arely staircase]

42. did you report these crimes?

because i've lived in the south my whole life and never knew there were so many people committing murder with such impunity that it was a "past time" (sic).

[freshwest]

2. Zimmierman had an inflated sense of personal space obviously. The entire community was 'his ground.'

Or at least that's the only reasoning I can imagine. I suspect the law was meant to imply if someone was getting into one's house or car, very upclose and near, to stand one's ground.

If you can get away from someone, you do that as your first 'line' in self-defense. My taekwondo teacher taught us to first avoid situations, then if threatened, to move back.

If more happens, if necessary, you, the one defending yourself, YOU RUN AWAY. It's not a matter of ego or being tough. Only in close quarter, surrounded or trapped do you strike, and then only enough to escape. Anything more and you are the criminal. We were legally responsible for what we did with our training.

There was no way this was self-defense, which is the only way I can imagine that this 'stand your ground' law came about. But then, I haven't read the law, but the title sounds a bit wrong. Is this the Florida version of 'castle' law?

Some states have extended the right to shoot someone to beyond one's own person and property. Or to percieved threats, like 'I felt threatened.' But if you feel threatened, my master had taught us the appropriate thing to do, see above.

People who aren't balanced mentally or physically, know they can defend or attack with a gun and use it too easily. It doesn't take much training to finger a trigger.

Did I answer your question?

[cali]

3. Not a bad stab at it

I suppose I should go learn more about the law itself.

thanks.

[freshwest]

4. Ah, you replied as I was editing. Hope you find out for us what the law says. IDK.

[tulsakatz]

8. here's a link I found....

[link:http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html|

[lukkadairish]

6. The true

Stand Your Ground defense was in the slain boy's corner. He was walking along the sidewalk, hood on his head due to rain, enjoying a bag of candy and a drink. A strange car slows down and tracks his movement. He gets scared and begins to run. The man in the vehicle exits said vehicle and accosts the boy, who begins screaming for help. He has no choice but to fight for his survival. Candy vs. Gun. There isnt a jail dark enough or recompense large enough on this Blue Planet Earth for this. The man needs to pay, and pay as dearly as we paltry humans can summon.

[freshwest]

12. The boy was doing exactly what I would have done and what I was taught. How hideous this was, and

There was another case in Sanford with the police chief's son (may not have remembered the exact details) on another thread where he was not charged. I wonder how far away this was from Rosewood, Florida:

Rosewood was a quiet, primarily black, self-sufficient whistle stop on the Seaboard Air Line Railway. Spurred by unsupported accusations that a white woman in nearby Sumner had been beaten and possibly raped by a black drifter, white men from nearby towns lynched a Rosewood resident. When black citizens defended themselves against further attack, several hundred whites combed the countryside hunting for black people, and burned almost every structure in Rosewood. Survivors hid for several days in nearby swamps and were evacuated by train and car to larger towns. Although state and local authorities were aware of the violence, they made no arrests for the activities in Rosewood. The town was abandoned by black residents during the attacks. None ever returned.

Although the rioting was widely reported around the country, few official records documented the event. Survivors, their descendants, and the perpetrators remained silent about Rosewood for decades. Sixty years after the rioting, the story of Rosewood was revived in major media when several journalists covered it in the early 1980s. Survivors and their descendants organized to sue the state for having failed to protect them. In 1993, the Florida Legislature commissioned a report on the events. As a result of the findings, Florida became the first U.S. state to compensate survivors and their descendants for damages incurred because of racial violence. The massacre was the subject of a 1997 film directed by John Singleton. In 2004, the state designated the site of Rosewood as a Florida Heritage Landmark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre

We should not forget the roads blocked off in black communities and voter disenfranchisement, all aimed at the black voter in 2000 in Florida. The nightrider mentality has never left some of the people down there, in a way. Although I doubt that has ANYTHING to do with this incident. Just another zombie acting out his warped idea of what was 'manly' on another human.

The trial should prove enlightening, I just hope that it won't provoke any revenge. But in my experience, blacks in this country have the patience of Job. I can hardly imagine how they have had the strength to go on in the face of such hatred as so many have endured. If I were black, I would be a much different person. I would distrust all white people.

[tulsakatz]

7. the law is written to pertain to death or great bodily harm....

...but then again some people will act out of a sense of paranoia just to be able to protect themselves even when a real threat did not even exist!! Which is why these kinds of laws are so bad! Especially in the south!!

A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm

[link:http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html|

[DirkGently]

27. Florida had "Castle Doctrine" already. This law favors vigilantes.

Although it wasn't the case, it was argued self-defense was too hard to prove. The new law removes the duty to flee rather than use force, if it was safe to do so and one was outside his or her own home.

Which of course leaves open the possibility of someone seeking out a confrontation, accelerating it, and THEN feeling threatened and killing someone. It was argued that would never happen. Armed citizens are always responsible, etc.

Looks like it's happened.

[malaise]

5. It doesn't

He will soon discover that

[zipplewrath]

24. I'll explain, not defend

It applies in this case because the concept behind the law is that you are not required to be "passive". i.e. if you see trouble, you are allowed to confront it, not just run from it. And no, you don't need the police permission to do so.

The obvious trouble with the law, and not just in this case, is that it is a fine line between "confronting trouble" and "creating trouble". Furthermore, so much of this law depends upon the perception of the shooter, that it is very easy for BOTH sides of a confrontation to be legally justified in shooting. The law really makes no provision for the shooter to have much responsibility at all for their fears. No overt act is required, although goes a long way towards supporting the case. And there is no part of the law that increases the burden on the shooter when they are the primary instigator of a confrontation.

The vast majority of CCW permit holders don't have anything close to the training that someone from a police force has. And the police are far from perfect in their application of force. The reason permit holders tend NOT to end up in these confrontations is because they are STILL smart enough to avoid trouble when they can, despite what the laws may "allow". It's when nutballs like this pick up the guns that trouble starts.

[cali]

25. thanks

sounds like a really bad law.

[zipplewrath]

30. NRA authored

That's what Florida gets when it lets the NRA write its laws.

[DirkGently]

37. The NRA has authored terrible laws all over. Do we all deserve it?

[zipplewrath]

38. Your state, your problem

I'm being a bit sarcastic of course, but when the folks of my state complain about this crap, I point out that all these guys get elected after all. They can't blame it on folks from some other part of the country. Heck, our LOCAL representatives vote for this crap so ya can't even blame it on the folks from "over yonder".

[DirkGently]

41. The NRA gets its lobby money nationally, & spreads its filth nationally as well.

[jpak]

29. Because it allows you to create a confrontation, stand your ground and pull the trigger

GOP/NRA douchebaggery at its worse.

yup

[fascisthunter]

46. Bingo!

[Blue_Tires]

33. It doesn't apply at all, and never did...

Zimmerman racially profiled an innocent teen, intimidated him by stalking him in his car and then on foot, and the teen was shot in a confrontation...

Zimmerman knowingly reported an assumed crime in progress to the police, which he knew was false... Whatever make-believe 'stand your ground' story he told the cops in the aftermath, the cops apparently took at face value with no doubts whatsoever...

And I still want to read his whole statement to the police that night...It's the last piece that will make the entire case blow up, because not only is it pure fiction, he probably accused Martin of at least a half-dozen illegal activities...

[spanone]

35. it. does. not. apply. period.

[DirkGently]

40. If that was certain, Zimmerman would already be in jail.

Before "stand your ground," the law was that a person in a potentially threatening situation had a duty -- so long as they were not in their dwelling place at the time -- to flee, if they could safely do so.

There is no question the shooter here could have fled, any number of times. Before he stopped the car. Before he confronted the victim. Before he gave chase. After he gave chase. After he apparently began to lose the physical confrontation he started.

Stand Your Ground is the NRA's Vigilante Protection Act.

And it's working.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. It shouldn't, but if Zimmerman is charged, he will certainly use it as a defense.

And if he is able to confuse the jury with it and argue that it applies, God help us all.

Zimmerman was not actually standing his ground, but he'll say he was.

Just scrap the damn law. It's going to be exploited for situations just like these.

Thank you Marion Hammer, you disgusting little troll.

[Ganja Ninja]

39. It's a bullshit excuse.

This was a case of an armed man stalking a minor. It's know wonder the kid ran.

Stand your ground does not mean you can follow and then chase and then confront someone walking down the street minding his own business.

[slackmaster]

43. IMO it does not apply. You can't pick a fight, then escalate to deadly force because you are losing.

You can't stalk someone, then decide you are afraid of him and shoot him.