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RandySF

(61,299 posts)
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:59 AM Dec 2013

Doctor who testified to keep brain-dead teen on ventilator is a religious quack.

If you live in the SF Bay Area, you are probably aware of the heart wrenching story of the Oakland family fighting to keep the brain-dead teeanger on her ventilator even after Neurology from Stanford made it clear there is no hope to bring her back. I understand the family's difficulty to come to terms, but I hate it when religious nuts and other quacks give them horrible advice that just make things worse in the long run.

In a declaration filed with the federal action by Jahi's family, Dr. Paul Byrne, a pediatrician who has questioned the definition of brain death, said he visited Jahi's bedside and observed her responding to her grandmother's voice and touch with a squirming movement.

"In my professional opinion, she is not a cadaver," Byrne said. "Her heart beats thousands of times a day."


http://www.sfgate.com/news/medical/article/Life-support-extended-for-girl-declared-brain-dead-5100915.php

It took VERY little time to discover what kind of "doctor" this guy is.

Dr. Paul A. Byrne is a neonatologist and a Clinical Professor of Pediatrics. He is past President of the Catholic Medical Association. He is the producer of the film Continuum of Life and the author of Life, Life Support and Death, Beyond Brain Death, and Brain Death is Not Death. Dr. Byrne has presented testimony on life-death issues to nine state legislatures beginning in 1967. He opposed Dr. Jack Kevorkian on Cross-Fire, and has appeared on Good Morning America, the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) documentary, “Are the donors really dead?”, and public Television in Japan. He is the author of many articles in medical and law journals and the lay press.

Dr. Byrne and his colleagues recently held a conference at the Vatican on this very subject.

Dr. Byrne spends many spare waking moments in defense of those unable to communicate on their own behalf. He is available for speaking engagements and radio and television interviews at a very minimal, or donations only, cost to audiences and organizations around the country. This is a topic that the general public must continuously be made aware of before it happens to them.


http://www.truthaboutorgandonation.com/aboutdrbyrne.html
76 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Doctor who testified to keep brain-dead teen on ventilator is a religious quack. (Original Post) RandySF Dec 2013 OP
Yes, he is, and just the type an exploitive lawyer-type would hire in a case like this. NYC_SKP Dec 2013 #1
All other pros/cons notwithstanding, I hope family sues big time Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #3
It's not even clear that the procedure was necessary. NYC_SKP Dec 2013 #4
It was elective surgery for sleep apnea (see rant below) nt. Barack_America Dec 2013 #10
It wasn't routine XemaSab Dec 2013 #7
It will all come out. This is malpractice. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #8
We have no idea what happened. tammywammy Dec 2013 #11
from what I have heard Niceguy1 Dec 2013 #26
That's what the parents say, but we don't know that for sure. tammywammy Dec 2013 #27
Sounds like she had an artery rupture after she awoke from surgery. SunSeeker Dec 2013 #39
I'm thinking she has a clotting disorder. FarPoint Dec 2013 #62
I wondered that too ninjanurse Dec 2013 #68
Not "routine". Not a "tonsillectomy" as has been reported. Barack_America Dec 2013 #12
I have a question. tammywammy Dec 2013 #16
There is poor compliance in the pediatric population. Barack_America Dec 2013 #19
Thanks. n/t tammywammy Dec 2013 #20
Very likely but she could have an undetected clotting disorder.... FarPoint Dec 2013 #63
That's what I suspected. kcr Dec 2013 #2
Read your title and was like, intheflow Dec 2013 #5
Brain death isn't death? awoke_in_2003 Dec 2013 #6
Brain death IS legal death in CA (*rant*) Barack_America Dec 2013 #9
Thanks, this is what I expected. An unnecessary surgical procedure. NYC_SKP Dec 2013 #14
Physicians have largely given up fighting the obesity machine. Barack_America Dec 2013 #21
You know nothing about this girl's medical condition, so blaming her parents pnwmom Dec 2013 #22
Throat surgeries are much more difficult in obese people. Barack_America Dec 2013 #30
And it feels so good to fasten blame on the parents pnwmom Dec 2013 #57
Well Said ninjanurse Dec 2013 #69
She didn't need that crazy operation. The poor girl needed to lose weight. SunSeeker Dec 2013 #23
Even tall, thin people can have obstructive apnea. One of my relatives does. pnwmom Dec 2013 #24
Of course there's no guarantee, but geez, why not give weight loss a try? SunSeeker Dec 2013 #31
If she's not breathing at night, she might have needed treatment pnwmom Dec 2013 #56
But removal or trimming of the turbinate bones is the very last proceedure that should be used intaglio Dec 2013 #61
How is that not malpractice? NYC_SKP Dec 2013 #70
How would the parents know that? They obviously followed the advice of a respected doctor. pnwmom Dec 2013 #73
Please read, I laid the blame for this at the doors of the consultant intaglio Dec 2013 #75
And people who never smoke get emphysema. Barack_America Dec 2013 #71
I think you covered that well workinclasszero Dec 2013 #66
Yeah, the more they say they love Jebus Warpy Dec 2013 #13
DU Rec... SidDithers Dec 2013 #15
Someone they trust needs to have a heart to heart with the parents. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #17
Uh.....what exactly is it about his background and experience that makes him a quack? Th1onein Dec 2013 #18
The fact he doesn't accept settled law that brain dead = dead, for one. Barack_America Dec 2013 #25
So, now it's left up to the LAWYERS as to who is brain dead? Th1onein Dec 2013 #34
-1 ZRT2209 Dec 2013 #47
Well, considering coroners are government officials, yes. Barack_America Dec 2013 #67
+1 ZRT2209 Dec 2013 #46
He's entirely opposed to organ donation. PEOPLE WILL DIE because of his work. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #28
What's evil is making money off of organ donation. Th1onein Dec 2013 #35
No, he's entirely against organ donation. Read the link upthread. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #36
This doesn't really say that he is for or against it. Th1onein Dec 2013 #40
Go click around on more of those links. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #42
I've looked. They are against it. Th1onein Dec 2013 #43
You're the one arguing that the guy isn't a crank. The evidence is clear that he is. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #45
Nah. He's not a crank. Sorry, you're wrong. Th1onein Dec 2013 #49
He rejects science based on something Pope Ratzi said. He wants to keep corpses warm a little longer LeftyMom Dec 2013 #50
This guy has done extensive research on this topic. He doesn't reject science. Th1onein Dec 2013 #51
He's a neonatologist by training. He's acting far out of his speciality. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #52
There are a lot of doctors who happen to agree with him. Th1onein Dec 2013 #59
There's a lot of doctors who aren't neurologists who agree with him. jeff47 Dec 2013 #65
And, by the way, it's not good form to call your opponent in an argument a "moron." Th1onein Dec 2013 #41
You keep threatening people with your ignore list MattBaggins Dec 2013 #74
There's absolutely no substantiation that anyone is making money off organ donation! riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #76
How about this? RandySF Dec 2013 #32
So what? Th1onein Dec 2013 #37
My heart breaks for the family, but what's the point? Beacool Dec 2013 #29
It's sad to see people exploited by a right wing agenda kcr Dec 2013 #64
The family seems to have "brain death" mixed up with "coma" davidn3600 Dec 2013 #33
And from what I've been seeing on the news, Mr.Bill Dec 2013 #38
bet he loves guns, war and supports the death penalty though. ZRT2209 Dec 2013 #44
Paging Dr. Frist. Paging Dr. Santorum... jsr Dec 2013 #48
Was somebody really expecting that this quack would turn out to be Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #53
This is a very sad, tragic story. So please don't think I'm making light of it when I mention that Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #54
She has no blood flow to her brain Kurska Dec 2013 #55
if bran-death is not death - then why is cardiac-death considered death? Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #58
Religious fanatics believe that as long as the heart pumps, a person is alive. RandySF Dec 2013 #60
If this had been handled by the original doctors with a shred of respect, decency and care ScreamingMeemie Dec 2013 #72
 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
1. Yes, he is, and just the type an exploitive lawyer-type would hire in a case like this.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:09 AM
Dec 2013

This is all just so very sad.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
3. All other pros/cons notwithstanding, I hope family sues big time
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:13 AM
Dec 2013

And wins a large settlement. This is a horrendous outcome for a fairly routine procedure.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
4. It's not even clear that the procedure was necessary.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:16 AM
Dec 2013

We read of so many surgeries and procedures that are done unnecessarily.

I hope this wasn't one of those, but it was very tragic in it's outcome in any event.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
11. We have no idea what happened.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:42 AM
Dec 2013

The hospital cannot comment without the parent's permission which of course they're not giving. I wouldn't be so quick to assume it was malpractice when there's no details.

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
26. from what I have heard
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:30 AM
Dec 2013

the facility did not respond appropriately when postoperative complications first arose.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
27. That's what the parents say, but we don't know that for sure.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:34 AM
Dec 2013

For the family they would say the response time was slow, but haven't we all had times where a minute can seem like forever.

The hospital cannot refute statements by the family, since the mother has not given the hospital permission.

SunSeeker

(52,169 posts)
39. Sounds like she had an artery rupture after she awoke from surgery.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:17 AM
Dec 2013

The parents note she awoke from surgery and asked for a popsicle. Then all of a sudden started bleeding profusely, causing the brain damage.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/30/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=0

It's not clear if the hospital could have saved her. If the parents had facts that show the hospital could have saved her, I imagine they would have relayed them by now.

FarPoint

(12,577 posts)
62. I'm thinking she has a clotting disorder.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:26 AM
Dec 2013

Maybe it just never surfaced until now....Autopsy will show this...and maybe they already did testing now that she had the incident.

ninjanurse

(96 posts)
68. I wondered that too
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:50 PM
Dec 2013

But the record and mother's testimony should answer that question. One article said Jahi was spitting blood up into cups, but another said she died 1/2 hour post-op. I think the mother will get only more grief from the course she's on, and would have done better to demand an investigation of the hospital care.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
12. Not "routine". Not a "tonsillectomy" as has been reported.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:46 AM
Dec 2013

It was removal of the tonsils, adenoids and other throat tissue to address sleep apnea caused by her obesity. There is scant data on the efficacy of this procedure in children, but current figures estimate no more than 50% of children as obese as she was would benefit.

In short, the procedure was almost certainly unnecessary to begin with, the risks likely outweighed the potential benefits, and she would have likely benefitted much more from both an OSA and cardiovascular/diabetic standpoint from weight loss.

But hey, we are a society of quick fixes that is in denial of the risks of obesity.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
16. I have a question.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:06 AM
Dec 2013

I don't know much about sleep apnea, but I thought the CPAP machine was normal for that. Could the machine not have been good enough requiring surgery?

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
19. There is poor compliance in the pediatric population.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:17 AM
Dec 2013

It's very difficult to tolerate, more so for kids. I don't know whether Jahi ever attempted it. I have read she underwent a formal sleep study to diagnose her OSA. This is generally done to justify a script for CPAP.

FarPoint

(12,577 posts)
63. Very likely but she could have an undetected clotting disorder....
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:29 AM
Dec 2013

Factor disorders are not routinely tested for pre-op.

Example: Von Willebrand Disease

http://www.childrensmn.org/services/cancer-and-blood-disorders/blood-disorders/teen-hematology-and-gynecology-program/von-willebrand-disease


snip>


What are the symptoms of von Willebrand disease?

Von Willebrand disease can be a mild disorder and often children have very few symptoms. Recurrent nosebleeds are a common complaint in children with vWD. Usually, children with vWD bruise easily, or bleed after tooth extraction, tonsillectomy or other surgery. Females can have increased menstrual bleeding. A person's symptoms may change throughout their life, but the type of vWD does not change.

How is von Willebrand disease diagnosed?

Von Willebrand disease can be difficult to diagnose. This is partly because the results of a person's blood tests can vary day-to-day. For example, the amount of von Willebrand factor can be temporarily increased when a child/teen:

Is under stress.
Has an infection.
Has recently undergone surgery.
Has recently undergone a blood transfusion.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
9. Brain death IS legal death in CA (*rant*)
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:38 AM
Dec 2013

As in many other states. 6 physicians have now examined her and declared her to be legally dead. Scans have demonstrated 0 blood flow going to her cortex and brain stem.

She is dead.

Furthermore, she did not have a "tonsillectomy" as is widely reported. She had a much more involved and risky procedure to address sleep apnea. Sleep apnea likely caused largely by her significant obesity, which in-turn almost certainly complicated her operative and post-operative course. 13 year olds do not achieve this level of obesity without the help of their parents.

So, in essence, what you have here is a family that allowed a child to reach levels of obesity that caused a significant side effect (sleep apnea). They then chose an elective surgery to correct the sleep apnea (which has no greater than a 50% success rate for obese children, based on limited studies). Now, after a tragic post-operative course, they are demanding all manner of abuse be done to her corpse. Her ENT docs share blame in this case, but I cannot get over the horrible decisions the parents have made for this child. I have no doubt they loved her, but holy hell, have they made wrong decisions for her at almost every pass.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
14. Thanks, this is what I expected. An unnecessary surgical procedure.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:48 AM
Dec 2013

Had they treated her obesity, the causes thereof, helped her family understand proper nutrition and exercise instead of this procedure, the girl would still be with us.

I saw this over and over with my parents before they died this year. They ate shit and go medicated for their acid reflux and high cholesterol.

I believe both were treatable through diet.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
21. Physicians have largely given up fighting the obesity machine.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:21 AM
Dec 2013

Sad to say. But look what they are up against. There's simply too much money to be made in the food, clothing and diet industries. And it's so tempting to go along with the message that it's perfectly fine to be fat.

pnwmom

(109,055 posts)
22. You know nothing about this girl's medical condition, so blaming her parents
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:24 AM
Dec 2013

for her obesity is really going too far. She is not a two year old who has been force fed. She was a teen who was fully capable of eating too much on her own -- or she could have had a physical condition that made obesity more likely.

They are clearly wrong not to accept her death, but it's pretty heartless to pile on blame for the death when NONE of us knows exactly what went wrong. That surgery should NOT have killed her. Obese children have surgeries every day, and survive.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
30. Throat surgeries are much more difficult in obese people.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:42 AM
Dec 2013

It sure as hell makes securing an airway in a crashing patient more difficult.

You might look at obesity rates and OSA rates in the pediatric population (hint: direct correlation).

As for her obesity, true, I do not know if she was gainfully employed and capable of purchasing all of her own food. But at 13, I assume she was not, thus her parents share a large part of the responsibility regarding her diet. I do not know if she had a "medical condition" that affected her metabolism (I suspect pediatric metabolic syndrome DUE to her obesity). But I do know that she was unable to violate the 1st law of thermodynamics and that any energy she stored in her adipose tissue began as calories in her mouth.

I refuse to ignore the role her obesity played in this tragedy.

pnwmom

(109,055 posts)
57. And it feels so good to fasten blame on the parents
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:29 AM
Dec 2013

because then you can be certain nothing bad will happen to your loved ones, because you, of course, will never make a mistake like that.

One of our relatives lost his daughter due to an eating disorder. It's much harder to control a child's eating than you are acknowledging, or there wouldn't be deaths from anorexia and bulimia.

ninjanurse

(96 posts)
69. Well Said
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:53 PM
Dec 2013

it's so hard being a parent, and this mother is dealing with her daughter's death from surgery she set up. All anyone can do is make the best decision possible at the time with what they know.

SunSeeker

(52,169 posts)
23. She didn't need that crazy operation. The poor girl needed to lose weight.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:24 AM
Dec 2013

Sounds like child abuse/neglect by the parents to me. And what doctor in his right mind would have agreed to perform that operation? The adults in her life really failed this child. And they are continuing to do so, basically abusing her corpse.

pnwmom

(109,055 posts)
24. Even tall, thin people can have obstructive apnea. One of my relatives does.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:28 AM
Dec 2013

There is no guarantee that she wouldn't have had apnea even if she weren't obese, though obesity raises the risk.

SunSeeker

(52,169 posts)
31. Of course there's no guarantee, but geez, why not give weight loss a try?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:43 AM
Dec 2013

She needed to lose weight for her health regardless. Why not see if she still had obstructive apnea even after losing weight, then doing the surgery once it is proven necessary.

pnwmom

(109,055 posts)
56. If she's not breathing at night, she might have needed treatment
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:27 AM
Dec 2013

sooner rather than later -- losing weight can take a while.

I don't know why people here are harping on the parents, though. Some doctors recommended this procedure. Haven't the parents been through enough?

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
61. But removal or trimming of the turbinate bones is the very last proceedure that should be used
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:01 AM
Dec 2013

TBH the surgeon involved should be shot; he attempted 3 procedures at once, all of which carry significant risk of bleeding on their own. Then there was the removal or trimming of the turbinates when there was a less risky process - ablation.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
70. How is that not malpractice?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:10 PM
Dec 2013
For the last three weeks, Jahi's family has been calling routine press conferences, jumping on social media, filing court papers and praying for a miracle following Jahi's Dec. 9 surgeries to cure her sleep apnea. Jahi's story turned into an international tale about patients' rights and the legal, medicial and religious definitions of "brain death."

The surgeries she received included: An adenotonsillectomy; a uvulopalatopharyngloplasty, or UPPP, which is tissue removal in the throat; and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates, which is nasal obstruction. Singer described the surgeries as "complex."

pnwmom

(109,055 posts)
73. How would the parents know that? They obviously followed the advice of a respected doctor.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 05:15 PM
Dec 2013

Should they be blamed for that, too?

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
75. Please read, I laid the blame for this at the doors of the consultant
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 06:06 PM
Dec 2013

I said nothing about the parents.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
71. And people who never smoke get emphysema.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:15 PM
Dec 2013

But obesity and smoking dramatically increase your chances of getting OSA and emphysema, respectively. And once you have the diseases, obesity and smoking make them worse and harder to treat.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
66. I think you covered that well
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 11:34 AM
Dec 2013

Its sad but why cant people understand when you are brain dead, you are dead?

Everything that makes a person, a personality, is in your brain. Not your arms, legs, etc.


Sure they can keep her lifeless, personality free body going on for years probably but that poor kid is gone forever.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
18. Uh.....what exactly is it about his background and experience that makes him a quack?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:16 AM
Dec 2013

He's a neonatologist, clinical profession of pediatrics, presented testimony before legislatures since 1967--sounds like he's pretty respected in his field. What, exactly, makes you think he's a quack? He sure doesn't look like a quack to me.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
25. The fact he doesn't accept settled law that brain dead = dead, for one.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:28 AM
Dec 2013

He may be great at neonatology, but he should leave neurology to the neurologists. Overstepping one's own level of expertise is the first level of quackery for a physician. Doing so intentionally in a public forum is the second. Diagnosing a patient without having personally examined them is the third.

Whatever he once was, he is now a quack.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
34. So, now it's left up to the LAWYERS as to who is brain dead?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:58 AM
Dec 2013

He's no quack. And I doubt that the legislature would have had him testify if he were. But, of course, here on DU, we reserve the right to call anyone who disagrees with us a quack, right?

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
67. Well, considering coroners are government officials, yes.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 01:41 PM
Dec 2013

They serve as the link between medicine and the law. There needs to be some legal directive for when to call them.

If there is no legal definition of "death" and it's all up to the physicians, then as an MD myself, I could pronounce you dead right now. What state are you in? I can start filling out the paperwork.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
28. He's entirely opposed to organ donation. PEOPLE WILL DIE because of his work.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:34 AM
Dec 2013

Thinking, feeling people with brains that work.

That's not quackery, that's pure fucking evil.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
35. What's evil is making money off of organ donation.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:07 AM
Dec 2013

I don't think that Byrne is necessarily against organ donation. He's against the idea of "brain death" as it's currently used, to harvest organs. And I think he's right.

Wonder what happened in this lawsuit: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208896/Patrick-McMahon-lawsuit-Donor-network-pressured-medics-declare-patients-dead-organs-harvested.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
36. No, he's entirely against organ donation. Read the link upthread.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:09 AM
Dec 2013

Only morons get science news from the Daily Heil.

edit: Here, just to make it easy for you: http://www.truthaboutorgandonation.com/informeddecision.html

Are you thinking about being an organ donor?


MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION
By Paul A. Byrne M.D.

...

Q: What happens to the recipient?
A: The recipient must take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of his/her life. These are anti-immune, anti-nature drugs. The
recipient exchanges one set of problems for another set of problems.

Q: What is the moral teaching of Pope Benedict XVI on this topic?
A: “Individual vital organs cannot be extracted except ex cadavere. . . ”
“The principal criteria of respect for the life of the donator must always prevail so that the extraction of organs be performed only in the case of his/her true death” (cf. Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 476).

Q: What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach about this?
A: Article 5 The Fifth Commandment, Section 2296 states: “Organ transplants are in conformity with the moral law if the physical and psychological dangers and risks to the donor are proportionate to the good sought for the recipient. Organ donation after death is a noble and meritorious act and is to be encouraged as an expression of generous solidarity. It is not morally acceptable if the donor or his proxy has not given explicit consent. Moreover, it is not morally admissible to bring about the disabling mutilation or death of a human being, even in order to delay the death of other persons.” (Bold and underline added by author.)


Q: Now, do you WISH to be an organ donor?
A: After full and explicit information is obtained, it seems one cannot be an organ donor.

© Paul A. Byrne, M.D.


Emphasis added.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
40. This doesn't really say that he is for or against it.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:27 AM
Dec 2013

But I would assume that, since he is against it for himself, he is against it for others. That's his morality. I don't think that he is necessarily against donation for brain dead people because of his religion. I think that he thinks that many of these people are actually still alive.

I think that there is too much money involved in organ donation. It lends itself to corruption. And "brain death"? Not a settled issue, and I don't think that we have the technology to settle it right now.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
42. Go click around on more of those links.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:31 AM
Dec 2013

Look around the site a little more, look at the other organizations they link to. They're 100% opposed to organ donation.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
45. You're the one arguing that the guy isn't a crank. The evidence is clear that he is.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:35 AM
Dec 2013

edit: And a dangerous crank at that.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
50. He rejects science based on something Pope Ratzi said. He wants to keep corpses warm a little longer
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:46 AM
Dec 2013

and is willing to let people who have a shot at a long healthy life die without a transplant.

That's stupid and evil.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
51. This guy has done extensive research on this topic. He doesn't reject science.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:56 AM
Dec 2013

It amazes me, the people who are called "cranks" and "quacks" simply because they disagree.

The science of "brain death" is not settled science. There are many scientists who disagree with this notion; Byrne is not alone. I don't doubt that his religion plays some part in his views, but so does others'. The fact is that we don't really know, because we don't have the technology, when the human brain is truly dead; we cannot test beyond the first couple of layers. In addition, we know that the brain has holistic, and even holographic properties, so until we can test the entire brain, we really are just guessing, and I don't think we have the right to do that, whatever our religion.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
52. He's a neonatologist by training. He's acting far out of his speciality.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:00 AM
Dec 2013

There's a reason that neurologists aren't making his claims, and it's because they're not supported by people who understand the brain.

Here's a hint: a legitimate doctor with such an important discovery would publish in a respected journal, not in web pages and pamphlets put out by anti-woman crank organizations.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
59. There are a lot of doctors who happen to agree with him.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 05:04 AM
Dec 2013

And he's done extensive research on this topic. That makes him a non-crank. And, I think, one of his early patients, a baby, was found to be brain dead. The baby is now an honor roll student.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
65. There's a lot of doctors who aren't neurologists who agree with him.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 11:24 AM
Dec 2013

You wouldn't trust a neurologist to diagnose and treat a problem in your pancreas. Likewise, you wouldn't trust a endocrinologist to diagnose and treat a problem in your brain.

You wouldn't trust a neurologist to monitor and treat any problems arising from a pregnancy. Likewise, you wouldn't trust an obstetrician to diagnose and treat a problem in your brain.

And so on.

Specialization means you don't know much beyond the general public outside your specialty. Your opinions outside your specialty should be treated with the same level of trust as the opinions of the general public, even though you have "Dr" in front of your name.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
41. And, by the way, it's not good form to call your opponent in an argument a "moron."
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:30 AM
Dec 2013

I don't know about you, or others on here, but I don't have the time to keep track of every single publication that is accepted here as credible, or not credible. Who does? I do my best, as I'm sure everyone else does, to quote credible sources. This article was written up in more than the Daily Mail. Another personal attack and you'll join my Ignore list.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
76. There's absolutely no substantiation that anyone is making money off organ donation!
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 06:15 PM
Dec 2013

This persistent mis-information campaign you are on is evil. Please stop. Please.

RandySF

(61,299 posts)
32. How about this?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:48 AM
Dec 2013
Dr. Paul A. Byrne, a Neonatologist, is Director of Neonatology and Director of Pediatrics at St. Charles Mercy Hospital in Oregon, Ohio, is Clinical Professor of Pediatrics University of Toledo College of Medicine, Board Certified in Pediatrics and Neonatal-Perinatal Medicine, Member of Fellowship of Catholic Scholars. Dr. Byrne is past-President of the Catholic Medical Association (USA), formerly Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at Creighton University School of Medicine in Omaha, NE, and at St. Louis University School of Medicine in St. Louis, MO. He is author and producer of the film "Continuum of Life" and author of the books "Life, Life Support and Death," "Beyond Brain Death," and "Brain Death Is Not Death." Dr. Byrne has presented testimony on "life issues" to eight state legislatures beginning in 1967. He opposed Dr. Kevorkian on the television program "Cross-Fire." He has been interviewed on Good Morning America, public television in Japan and participated in the British Broadcasting Corporation Documentary "Are the Donors Really Dead?" Dr. Byrne has authored articles against euthanasia, abortion, and "brain death" in medical journals, law literature and lay press. Paul was married to Shirley for forty-eight years until she entered her eternal reward on Christmas 2005. They are the proud parents of twelve children and grandparents of twenty-six grandchildren.


http://www.lifeissues.net/writer.php?writerID=247&submit=Go


And he even wrote a column on the whole tragedy on a right-wing blog:

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne/131224

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
37. So what?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:10 AM
Dec 2013

When my sister was dying and Methodist Hospital in Houston was trying to pull the plug on her--she was conscious, aware, and absolutely terrified--the right wing blogs interviewed our family, and posted all kinds of stuff in support of our fight. We're all still liberals.

You speak to those who will listen; that's the way it is.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
33. The family seems to have "brain death" mixed up with "coma"
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:50 AM
Dec 2013

With a coma, the lights are still on inside. They are just not in a conscious state. People can still wake up from a coma. But when someone is brain dead, the TV is unplugged. She's gone.

Mr.Bill

(24,438 posts)
38. And from what I've been seeing on the news,
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:14 AM
Dec 2013

enter the family clergyman who says the girl should be kept on life support while they pray for the miracle that will make her well. He says, after all, that miracles are real because they are documented in the bible.

This family is being manipulated and abused by clergy, quack doctors and lawyers while they are most vulnerable. Those that would do this to a family during such a time of crisis are the scum of the earth.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
53. Was somebody really expecting that this quack would turn out to be
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:02 AM
Dec 2013

some "saint in surgical garb"? Never forget that half of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class, and that 'D' stands for diploma.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
54. This is a very sad, tragic story. So please don't think I'm making light of it when I mention that
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:04 AM
Dec 2013

I had to read the headline about 4 times before figuring out that it's not about "Doctor Who"

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
55. She has no blood flow to her brain
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:06 AM
Dec 2013

Without blood flood to the brain irreparable brain damage occurs in a matter of minutes, she hasn't had blood flow to her brain in weeks.

She is dead.

It is a horrible situations, but the only thing the parents are doing is keeping all the other organs alive. The part that really makes her her (her brain) is long gone and there is no way to bring it back.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
58. if bran-death is not death - then why is cardiac-death considered death?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:53 AM
Dec 2013

Even if one were to define death in purely theological religious terms that "death occurs when the spirit of the person permanently departs the body" there would be far less of a case that death occurs when cardiac activity stops - given that it has long been possible to maintain circulation artificially as is done all the time for numerous cardio-thoracic procedures - but it is not even remotely possible to maintain electrical activity if the brain were to be similarly disconnected from the rest of the Central Nervous System

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
72. If this had been handled by the original doctors with a shred of respect, decency and care
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:17 PM
Dec 2013

for the family, this could have been avoided.

Shout at me if you wish, but I get the feeling this family was probably dealt with in a detached manner, leading to a misunderstanding, leading them to believe the original physicians just didn't care, resulting in this.


Very, very sad. Doctors, nurses, and humanity need to remember to live and work with just a teensy bit of compassion for the betterment of us all.

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