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RandySF

(62,589 posts)
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 04:35 PM Dec 2013

Gun activist sent 30-round magazine to Conn. Governor for Christmas

For one gun activist, high-capacity magazines were the perfect Christmas gift to send a message to pro-gun control governors.

Mike Vanderboegh, the blogger at Sipsey Street Irregulars who is credited with turning Operation Fast and Furious into a subject of national news, said he sent forbidden ammunition to the governors of Connecticut, Colorado and Maryland, the New Haven Register reported Thursday.

Vanderboegh wrote in letters posted on his blog and dated Dec. 18 that he sent a 30-round magazine to both Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper (D) and Connecticut Gov. Daniel Malloy (D). After the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Connecticut passed a package of gun control legislation that outlawed new magazines holding over 10 rounds, while Colorado's new gun control laws restrict magazine capacity to 15 rounds.

Vanderboegh told the Register Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley's (D) office signed for a 20-round magazine he sent along with a letter also dated Dec. 18. Maryland's new gun legislation, also enacted in the wake of the Newtown, Conn. shooting, limited magazine capacity to 10 rounds.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gun-activist-says-he-sent-high-capacity-magazines-magazines-to-guvs-for-christmas

237 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Gun activist sent 30-round magazine to Conn. Governor for Christmas (Original Post) RandySF Dec 2013 OP
Another uneducated, racist, militia, "Moron Labe" type gun fancier. Here's his SPLC bio: Hoyt Dec 2013 #1
scary dude.. G_j Dec 2013 #120
I don't recall reading about that, but thanks for the heads-up. CBHagman Dec 2013 #216
is this the right forum? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #2
A 30-round clip sent to the Governor of Connecticut RandySF Dec 2013 #4
never seen a 30 round clip Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #5
Nomenclature police are here to obfuscate. Hoyt Dec 2013 #8
I have often heard experienced gun owners refer to a magazine as a "clip". .... spin Dec 2013 #14
As have I. Paladin Dec 2013 #22
I guess the term "clip" sounds scarier than "magazine" to those who do not understand gun ... spin Dec 2013 #40
They both feed bullets. That's really all that matters except to gun fanciers trying Hoyt Dec 2013 #29
The reason that the AR-15 with a hi-cap magazine is so popular with mass murderers is ... spin Dec 2013 #37
You are only assuming that people buy Jenoch Dec 2013 #83
If I become interested in anything that resembles something that has killed lots of folks Hoyt Dec 2013 #85
I take it you don't drink alcohol or drive a car... beevul Dec 2013 #93
It seems that your prefered weapon, a machete, oneshooter Dec 2013 #97
That's one of the best modern novels ever! sir pball Dec 2013 #140
I've long felt if one is attracted to "assault" weapons, that's enough to take all their gunz away.w Hoyt Dec 2013 #142
Well, I have one out of many. sir pball Dec 2013 #144
Nope. You owe it to other members of society to destroy it and repent your gun love andv Hoyt Dec 2013 #145
You wanna buy it off me? sir pball Dec 2013 #146
No doubt, sniping is an important skill in what gun fanciers think is a war zone. Hoyt Dec 2013 #147
What's the difference between sniping and hunting? sir pball Dec 2013 #148
thats what hunting and target shooting is Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #152
Most gun fanciers are not hunters. Sniping at targets that resemble humans? Hoyt Dec 2013 #156
all I know is MY Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #158
If target shooting is merely practice for shooting people hack89 Dec 2013 #168
"Why are so few people shoot by AR-15s?" rdharma Dec 2013 #189
Feel free to provide a link hack89 Dec 2013 #190
He can't Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #192
... beevul Dec 2013 #173
What's scary is that you actually believe this nonsense. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #186
Yep nt Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #193
The gungeoneers can't provide accurate citations of the law or accurate crime data. rdharma Dec 2013 #194
In 2011, more people were murdered with knives, "hands or feet" or "clubs and hammers" than with any Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #197
Colorado just had another school shooting. Claire Davis died DevonRex Dec 2013 #12
That was a teribble thing to happen. Jenoch Dec 2013 #94
Have you ever seen an automatic pistol? rdharma Dec 2013 #188
Have a Colt 1911, uses magazines Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #195
"Semi-automatic" vs. automatic........ clip vs. magazine............ rdharma Dec 2013 #196
I have and actually fired one several times, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #198
Thank-you for taking the jargon bait! rdharma Dec 2013 #200
Why your quite welcome. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #201
George Zimmerman has one of these. rdharma Dec 2013 #202
GZ is a murderer who got lucky and got away with it Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #203
But he's getting VIP tours though weapons factories! rdharma Dec 2013 #204
Yep Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #206
Yup! Not guilty by a court of law.... rdharma Dec 2013 #210
did you read my post? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #211
so what would you do now? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #212
Yeah, which is sickening and says alot about the manfacturer. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #207
just another reason not to buy their Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #208
+1000. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #209
Not my type Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #205
Pump shotgun, must be manualy reloaded for each shot. oneshooter Dec 2013 #213
bullpup holds 14 rounds Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #214
Cycled or reloaded? rdharma Dec 2013 #217
14 rounds, very high capacity Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #215
Actually it's much higher capacity! rdharma Dec 2013 #218
Doesn't matter, they're wearing off their little fingers furiously alerting kcr Dec 2013 #7
not me Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #10
Discuss it all you want Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #11
Post removed Post removed Dec 2013 #52
don't do FR Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #57
This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #66
You going to answer my questions? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #61
no, I am not. because yours is a red herring. bringing something up the OP nor I had mentioned Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #64
you know most gun show purchases do have background checks Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #69
I agree with the overall approach you mention Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #77
Yep, I could go down to a gun show, set up a booth and sell a number of semi-autos Hoyt Dec 2013 #80
If you did that the ATFE would arrest you for "commerce in firearms without a license" oneshooter Dec 2013 #98
Ummmm, no, you can't Hoyt. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #99
How many guns can you sell without an FFL? rdharma Dec 2013 #102
At a gun show? Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #104
Cite the law that states that! rdharma Dec 2013 #106
There aren't any specific rules, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #107
So what? rdharma Dec 2013 #108
Great post with facts even all knowing gun fanciers can't dispute. Hoyt Dec 2013 #111
Gun fanciers? Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #115
Nope. Which is why I support universal FFL transfers. sir pball Dec 2013 #141
Unfortunately, gun fanciers like to have option of buying and selling in back alley Hoyt Dec 2013 #143
From page 5 of the form 4473 Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #112
Yes, there is a loophole. Folks who are not engaged in business of dealing firearms can sell Hoyt Dec 2013 #121
Now, *there's* some hard evidence-photos with no attribution! friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #131
See post #108 above and you'll see that liquidating your collection is NOT engaging in business. rdharma Dec 2013 #125
So, I can do it. Actually, it's more than 2. I can also sell in the parking lot, or Hoyt Dec 2013 #110
And your point is? Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #116
Renchemp, lots of things are legal . . . . . . . but immoral and not good for our society. Hoyt Dec 2013 #118
And until such time as those are made illegal, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #122
they would have more credibility Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #127
The "Gun Show Loophole" is NOT a lie. rdharma Dec 2013 #149
so I can only sell to a private citizen at a GUNSHOW? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #151
No, but a gun show provides a very good platform to conduct your illicit sales! rdharma Dec 2013 #154
private intrastate sales can happen anywhere Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #157
Gun-Control Advocates Drop 'Gun Show Loophole' Talking Point Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #159
Keep pounding your head! "Gun show loophole" provides killers with guns! rdharma Dec 2013 #160
name a couple of those killers? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #162
Those points are real facts..real law...sorry they don't match with your NRA "talking points"! rdharma Dec 2013 #163
It's funny how the biggest pro-rkba folks are also the loudest voices against talking about it in GD Electric Monk Dec 2013 #222
Funny to those against guns perhaps. beevul Dec 2013 #223
Perfect example here. Step right up to the plate. Play up that oppressed victim mentality. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #224
Says the poster who proposed the pre-emptive blocking of pro-gun posters from the gun control forum. beevul Dec 2013 #225
Just like I would propose blocking flat-earthers from a forum dedicated to Geology. Yup. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #226
Thanks for the confirmation. N/T beevul Dec 2013 #227
Are you saying you'd be in favor of allowing flat-earthers to post in a forum dedicated to geology? Electric Monk Dec 2013 #228
I'm saying that I appreciate your confirmation that you guys block based on identity... beevul Dec 2013 #229
re: "Not.A.Single.One." You're sure about that, are you? Electric Monk Dec 2013 #230
I'm quite certain. Plus, those are not examples. beevul Dec 2013 #231
Schools and churches are perfect example of places where you shouldn't need a gun. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #232
Non sequitur. beevul Dec 2013 #233
You're trying to argue that "Everywhere" doesn't include Schools and Churches? Electric Monk Dec 2013 #234
No, I'm arguing that "everywhere" means "everywhere". beevul Dec 2013 #235
"everywhere" does include schools and churches. You fail again. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #236
And? The discussion is about your false attribution, not the things covered by "everywhere". beevul Dec 2013 #237
Nope. This is a post about a racist, militia type, who just happens to use gunz to intimidate. Hoyt Dec 2013 #6
Really Hoyt clffrdjk Dec 2013 #9
In order to actually intimidate a person with a firearm a responsible gun owner ... spin Dec 2013 #16
Not true. Take this militia gun fancier. He intimidates by sending hi Cap mags to government offic Hoyt Dec 2013 #19
"not that hard to spot...especially the racist/bigoted ones which make up the majority" friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #25
How can you argue with a master of mass telepsychoanalysis? Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #28
Especially one with a large collection of pictures! friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #43
Gun fanciers are by and large, bigots and view minorities as thugs. Not 100%, Hoyt Dec 2013 #30
I have absolutely no idea if Robertson is a racist or not. ... spin Dec 2013 #42
You don't? Seems obvious. Hoyt Dec 2013 #55
He may well be a racist. I simply do not have enough info to from that opinion. spin Dec 2013 #91
*You* made the claim re "most concealed carriers" friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #44
Go to any gun show or store, tell me who is drooling over weapons? Hoyt Dec 2013 #84
I've been to plenty of firearms shows, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #100
pot.kettle.black Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #88
Yep, I am bigoted against those who promote more gunz in more places to detriment of society. Hoyt Dec 2013 #96
"planted axiom" Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #128
An article of faith, not demonstrated by any evidence you have shown friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #130
Hoyt, we know the reason for your animosity towards most gun owners friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #132
You need to read in context. Hope you are more perceptive when drawing your gun. Hoyt Dec 2013 #133
I've read *all* your posts in context. You have a problem with guns... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #134
How about gun addicts? Hoyt Dec 2013 #135
What gun addicts? beevul Dec 2013 #138
Addicts think they have it under control. Hoyt Dec 2013 #139
True-but one cannot diagnose addiction by appearance... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #150
Unlike you I don't find an inanimate object intimidating in the least. ... spin Dec 2013 #31
Unfortunately, Spin, there are a lot of Zimmermans and militia types carrying. To keep you happy, Hoyt Dec 2013 #34
I will agree that there are militia types around. ... spin Dec 2013 #41
Still flogging Robert Bork's theory of "moral harm", Hoyt? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #24
We aren't talking about Robert Bork, we are talking about gun fanciers and the price they make Hoyt Dec 2013 #32
Feh. Issue posturing on a par with the WCTU and Harry J. Anslinger friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #45
I have little fear of others for good reason. ... spin Dec 2013 #46
This is news. It can be inferred that such a move was meant to be a threat to an elected official Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #51
Daily basis? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #58
I'm not that dumb to call humpers out Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #59
you have to know the correct Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #60
I leave that to the Congress and their staff to sort out correct terminology Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #62
I always enjoy some sinking to Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #63
it's shorthand for the obvious worship of guns some have that borders on the phallic Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #65
I just have a few and shoot targets Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #70
when I reference that, I am obviously not including all nor even the majority of gun owners Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #74
Thank you very much for that. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #76
agreed on the broad-brush nonsense Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #78
Hoyt is a hoot Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #79
We need to try to keep gun fanciers laughing. Maybe they will become less callous. Hoyt Dec 2013 #86
Parrot-like repetition of a false dilemma doesn't actually make it true, logical, or even rational. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #89
I've said it before Hoyt, but it bears repeating, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #101
Wayne is that you? nt hack89 Dec 2013 #109
Provides a nice contrast, doesn't it? Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #73
IBTL Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #3
They sent a metal box with a spring in it to the Gov? davepc Dec 2013 #13
The horror!!! Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #15
Apparently you overlooked this sicko's SPLC bio. He's your typical uneducated, racist, Hoyt Dec 2013 #20
Does hating him make your day better? Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #21
What? You afraid of visiting the SPLC website? Hoyt Dec 2013 #33
Naaah, just have better things to do Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #35
Wouldn't want to read about a racist gun fancier. Hoyt Dec 2013 #36
Caps game is more entertaining Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #39
Here it is, served up especially for you... GReedDiamond Dec 2013 #56
It's not HIS website. RandySF Dec 2013 #92
So you make light of the actions of a person Kingofalldems Dec 2013 #113
This message was self-deleted by its author Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #114
I don't give a damn what it is--sender is dangerous. Kingofalldems Dec 2013 #119
This message was self-deleted by its author Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #123
That was a waste of a good magazine. (n/t) spin Dec 2013 #17
which happens to fit into a gun perfectly and perfectly hold 30 rounds of ammo Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #50
Well... bobclark86 Dec 2013 #117
the entire raison d'etre of gun nuts is to stick it to libtards.. frylock Dec 2013 #18
Culture warriors love to jerk people's chains friendly_iconoclast Dec 2013 #23
Gee, what a home-grown hero. TheCowsCameHome Dec 2013 #26
That's a terrific idea! Turbineguy Dec 2013 #27
That was in poor taste hollowdweller Dec 2013 #38
I basically agree with you but ... spin Dec 2013 #47
What you said makes no sense to me hollowdweller Dec 2013 #48
she just poisoned the well for all Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #54
My response was to your comment. ... spin Dec 2013 #90
With you 1000% Mopar151 Dec 2013 #185
yep. a "freedom and liberty" guy living on the government dole. typical swine. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #49
New gun control plan: jeff47 Dec 2013 #53
I really hate when this type of racist rhetoric is used firsttimer Dec 2013 #67
Mr. Vanderboegh believes they are criminals. jeff47 Dec 2013 #68
I don't know who he is firsttimer Dec 2013 #72
I think he is stating a fact. If the bigoted white wing folks arming up thought minotities were Hoyt Dec 2013 #81
He's the guy in this story. jeff47 Dec 2013 #187
Sounds like a threat to me. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #71
I think it could be interpreted that way firsttimer Dec 2013 #75
Kind of like burning a cross on front lawn and waving guns around. Hoyt Dec 2013 #82
Yeah yeah.. Agressive bullies and then when Cha Dec 2013 #87
Nothing says "Peace on Earth" like a 30-round mag pinboy3niner Dec 2013 #95
This Vanderboegh is a dangerous nutjob! rdharma Dec 2013 #103
He is that no doubt. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #105
What a strange article... Lost_Count Dec 2013 #124
He sent a veiled threat of violence. rdharma Dec 2013 #126
The magazines are illegal in the states to which he sent them, RandySF Dec 2013 #129
He sent a magazine to tweak anti-gun politicians. hack89 Dec 2013 #136
Seems so... Lost_Count Dec 2013 #137
How about dragging yourself into present-day reality? Paladin Dec 2013 #165
It could be... But it isn't... Lost_Count Dec 2013 #166
Does "tweak" mean threaten with violence? rdharma Dec 2013 #153
Like I said.... nt hack89 Dec 2013 #155
Like I said..... "Veiled threat of violence." rdharma Dec 2013 #161
No - just pointing out he got the reaction he wanted hack89 Dec 2013 #167
I think we can see which side you are on. rdharma Dec 2013 #169
Left, actually hack89 Dec 2013 #170
But you saw no veiled threat? rdharma Dec 2013 #171
If he had send an actual bullet I would say yes hack89 Dec 2013 #172
It doesn't take "people like me" to make the NRA crazies.... look crazy! rdharma Dec 2013 #174
You play an important part hack89 Dec 2013 #175
Still trying to defend that crazy fug's actions? rdharma Dec 2013 #177
Stop lying hack89 Dec 2013 #178
No such implication was mad by me. rdharma Dec 2013 #180
Your posts back me up hack89 Dec 2013 #182
"laws governing mailing ammo are strict as hell." You're joking...... aren't you? rdharma Dec 2013 #179
Glossing over "all federal, state and local laws"? hack89 Dec 2013 #181
UPS is not the same as USPS. Think about it. n/t oneshooter Dec 2013 #183
Thank-you, oneshooter. rdharma Dec 2013 #184
the article states Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #191
"Now maybe the article is wrong." firsttimer Dec 2013 #199
This cheap hit at Malloy will get him few more votes next year. Dawson Leery Dec 2013 #164
Hopefully, Vanderboegh receives a "do not get out of jail free card" as a "thank-you"! rdharma Dec 2013 #176
Magazine is not ammunition. :-) LibertyAdvocate Dec 2013 #219
Welcome to DU. William769 Dec 2013 #220
Oh, bullshit. RandySF Dec 2013 #221

G_j

(40,379 posts)
120. scary dude..
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:40 PM
Dec 2013

In 2010, after Congress passed President Obama’s health care reform bill, Vanderboegh used his Sipsey Street Irregulars blog to urge opponents to throw bricks through the windows of Democratic offices nationwide. “Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night,” he wrote.

Thugs responded in several U.S. cities, including Wichita, Kan., Rochester, N.Y., and Tucson, Ariz., where bricks shattered the office windows of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat who was later shot in the head by a deranged gunman with no known ties to Vanderboegh. At least 10 Democrats in Congress reported harassment, vandalism or death threats. Vanderboegh was unapologetic, telling The Washington Post that the attacks were a legitimate warning to Democratic lawmakers that health care reform could lead to civil war. Throwing bricks, he said, “is both good manners and it’s also a moral duty to try to warn people.”

It wasn’t the first call for criminal violence from the man who led the Sons of Liberty, an antigovernment militia, in the 1990s. In 2006, he urged people to throw bricks through the office windows of members of Congress who supported legislation giving undocumented immigrants the same rights as U.S. citizens.

In recent years, Vanderboegh was a founder of another Patriot group, THREE%ER, which takes its name from the theory that only 3% of American colonials actually fought the British. He also engaged in vigilante border patrols.

CBHagman

(17,039 posts)
216. I don't recall reading about that, but thanks for the heads-up.
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:13 AM
Dec 2013

Here's a 2010 account from The Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032501722.html

"To all modern Sons of Liberty: THIS is your time. Break their windows. Break them NOW."

These were the words of Mike Vanderboegh, a 57-year-old former militiaman from Alabama, who took to his blog urging people who opposed the historic health-care reform legislation -- he calls it "Nancy Pelosi's Intolerable Act" -- to throw bricks through the windows of Democratic offices nationwide.

"So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party [that they] cannot fail to hear, break their windows," Vanderboegh wrote on the blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars. "Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats. But BREAK THEM."

In the days that followed, glass windows and doors were shattered at local Democratic Party offices and the district offices of House Democrats from Arizona to Kansas to New York. At least 10 Democratic lawmakers reported death threats, incidents of harassment or vandalism at their offices over the past week, and the FBI and Capitol Police are offering lawmakers increased protection.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
2. is this the right forum?
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 04:45 PM
Dec 2013

big news, These gun threads are like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

Why do you not post this in the correct forum?

Is the exception still going?

As long as the recipients follow the state laws they will be fine.

RandySF

(62,589 posts)
4. A 30-round clip sent to the Governor of Connecticut
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 04:47 PM
Dec 2013

Connecticut is where the Newtown massacre happened. I think this is the correct forum.

spin

(17,493 posts)
14. I have often heard experienced gun owners refer to a magazine as a "clip". ....
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 05:49 PM
Dec 2013
Clip vs. Magazine

Simply put, a clip is something that introduces cartridges into a magazine. A magazine can be either fixed, removable, box, tubular, rotary, etc. Stripper clips allow the user to “strip” rounds off into a magazine. There are also types of clips, such as those used in the M1 Garand and some Mannlichers, that are loaded, along with the cartridges they hold, into a magazine. Then they are either ejected or dropped out after all the rounds have been expended. An auto pistol’s magazine is just not a clip, no matter how many times people call it that.

Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/03/07/whats-in-a-name-common-gun-term-mistakes/#ixzz2oiKpfClN


I used to correct people who called a magazine a clip but recently I have given up. It's not as egregious as calling a semi-auto AR-15 an assault rifle.

Paladin

(28,469 posts)
22. As have I.
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 07:16 PM
Dec 2013

This "clip" vs. "magazine" thing never was an issue until gun militants started using it against gun control proponents as a means of intimidation and shutting down discussions. And military-styled semi-auto rifles were marketed as "assault rifles" once upon a time.

spin

(17,493 posts)
40. I guess the term "clip" sounds scarier than "magazine" to those who do not understand gun ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:13 PM
Dec 2013

terminology.

You are absolutely correct that a long time ago the AR-15 and similar "black rifles" that look similar to true fully automatic or burst fire assault rifles used by the military were advertised as "assault rifles".

I also remember that a fairly popular gun magazine tried to label such military style semi-auto rifles as "fun guns". That tactic failed to catch on.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
29. They both feed bullets. That's really all that matters except to gun fanciers trying
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:29 PM
Dec 2013

to avoid the real issues. I agree with you there.

Where I have an issue with an AR15 not being an "assault" rifle, is that the yahoos attracted to them buy them for the similarity to fully automatic assaut weapons. To me that is sick. In fact it is sick enough that anyone attracted to thembfor that reason should be prohibited from owning gunz. As Joe Biden said to the gun nut in the debates, "if that's your baby", you are a friggin loon. (Not you, you, because you actually display some gun sense every now and then.)

spin

(17,493 posts)
37. The reason that the AR-15 with a hi-cap magazine is so popular with mass murderers is ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:01 PM
Dec 2013

the constant advertisement that it gets from gun control advocates.

In reality at close range, a 12 gauge shotgun is FAR more lethal.

In passing a high capacity 50 or 100 round magazine is often unreliable and often causes a firearm to jam. Clearing a jammed semi-auto firearm takes longer than changing a magazine.

In fact the fact that the Colorado theater shooter was using an AR-15 with a hi-cap magazine probably saved lives.

James Holmes' Gun Jammed During Aurora Attack, Official Says
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL 07/22/12 02:42 AM ET

WASHINGTON -- A federal law enforcement official says the semi-automatic assault rifle used in the deadly Colorado movie theater shooting jammed during the attack.

The official said late Saturday the rifle had a high-capacity ammunition magazine which, based on witness accounts and evidence collected at the scene, apparently jammed. The rifle's malfunction then forced the suspected shooter, James Holmes, to switch to another weapon.

***snip***

Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates has said a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene of the shooting in suburban Denver. Oates said such a weapon was capable of firing 50 to 60 rounds a minute.

Police said Holmes also had two Glock pistols and a shotgun.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/james-holmes-gun-jammed-aurora-colorado-dark-knight-shooting_n_1692690.html


Another AR-15 jam also happened in Oregon:

Mall Shooter Jacob Roberts' Assault Rifle Jammed, Averting 'Much Worse' Tragedy, Sheriff Says
Posted: 12/12/2012 7:01 pm EST | Updated: 12/14/2012 11:24 am EST

A man who killed two and injured one on Tuesday in a Portland, Ore., mall packed with holiday shoppers might have taken many more lives, authorities said, had his military-style assault rifle not jammed in the midst of his shooting spree.

Jacob Tyler Roberts, 22, was armed with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, which he stole from an acquaintance, Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts (no relation) said at a press conference Wednesday.

The sheriff said the gun jammed as Roberts sprayed bullets into the Clackamas Town Center's food court, allowing potential victims to escape. Police estimated 10,000 shoppers were in the mall at the time of the shooting.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/12/jacob-roberts-portland-mall-shooter_n_2288479.html


 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
83. You are only assuming that people buy
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:56 AM
Dec 2013

AR-15 weapons because they assume the guns are like 'the real thing'. Only most people who are unaware of the difference between such weapons would make such an assumption.

You know the difference, you just never leave your own small area to pretend you do not know the difference. Keep your blinders and your small viewpoint on so the rest of us are allowed to have an intelligent discussion.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
85. If I become interested in anything that resembles something that has killed lots of folks
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:08 AM
Dec 2013

it's time I should be committed and prevented from owning it, especially if I'm buying it to kill people in highly unlikely event "I fear for my life."

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
93. I take it you don't drink alcohol or drive a car...
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 04:20 AM
Dec 2013

I take it you don't drink alcohol or drive a car, because both have killed lots of people.

Don't bother moving the goalposts.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
97. It seems that your prefered weapon, a machete,
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 09:43 AM
Dec 2013

was used to kill and maim thousands of men, women, and children.

Do you still want to carry one?

sir pball

(4,836 posts)
140. That's one of the best modern novels ever!
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:25 AM
Dec 2013
There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he were sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle. (p. 56, ch. 5)
--Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
142. I've long felt if one is attracted to "assault" weapons, that's enough to take all their gunz away.w
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:46 AM
Dec 2013

If one wants the dang things, they can't have them because they aren't sane enough to be around them. Of course, like Zimmerman, Lanza, NRA President's son, etc., they think they are sane and responsible right up until they aren't (not to mention the indirect effects of gun love).

sir pball

(4,836 posts)
144. Well, I have one out of many.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:53 AM
Dec 2013

It's less powerful than any of my other hunting rifles and I couldn't care less about the pistol grip or magazine. It's just a great, accurate, reliable deer gun. May I keep it, Sir?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
145. Nope. You owe it to other members of society to destroy it and repent your gun love andv
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:58 AM
Dec 2013

promotion of the dang things. Make it a NewYear resolution, and don't backslide.

sir pball

(4,836 posts)
146. You wanna buy it off me?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:03 AM
Dec 2013

It's worth about $4K. Money I'd gladly spend to hop-up my .338 to a two-mile killer. But you'd love that..

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
147. No doubt, sniping is an important skill in what gun fanciers think is a war zone.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:09 AM
Dec 2013

I bet that 4 grand rifle tickles your fancy.

sir pball

(4,836 posts)
148. What's the difference between sniping and hunting?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:14 AM
Dec 2013

Even at 100m, it's all about bullet placement. That's why I love my AR-10 so dearly, she'll put a GameKing 165 into a deer out to 800 yards. I'll sell her for your confiscation fetis though, to barrel, bed and adjust that bolt-action 300 that will do it out to a thousand or so.

Don't complain boy, you enabled me. Made me trade a popgun for a Magnum.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
152. thats what hunting and target shooting is
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:11 PM
Dec 2013

nothing about a war zone is even thought about when doing these LEGAL sports

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
156. Most gun fanciers are not hunters. Sniping at targets that resemble humans?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:49 PM
Dec 2013

Some gun fanciers even liked the Trayvon Martin "thug" target.

The hunting excuse doesn't work well with me because most guns are not sold for hunting. The target shooting, is often just practicing for shooting people. That's kind of immoral too, but very popular among those in the so-called gun culture.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
158. all I know is MY
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:00 PM
Dec 2013

targets are square or round. Most people shoot at paper plates or cans and bottles because they are cheap.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
168. If target shooting is merely practice for shooting people
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 07:42 PM
Dec 2013

Why are so few people shoot by AR-15s? Why is the number declining year by year?

Seems to be a major flaw in your "logic".

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
189. "Why are so few people shoot by AR-15s?"
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 10:53 PM
Dec 2013

I hate to break this to you hack89, but the number of people killed annually by various AR-15s and their clones is increasing!

And that's a fact!

hack89

(39,171 posts)
190. Feel free to provide a link
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:01 PM
Dec 2013

Because the FBI crime stats over the past 20 years say exactly the opposite. Rifles are the least likely murder weapon - knives, hands/feet and blunt objects each kill many more people.

Time you showed some hard numbers.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
192. He can't
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:14 PM
Dec 2013

refused to answer any of my requests either when called out on it. Just kept spewing his talking points.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
194. The gungeoneers can't provide accurate citations of the law or accurate crime data.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:22 PM
Dec 2013

But they can still throw pooh. Luckily they're still behind that thick window!

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
197. In 2011, more people were murdered with knives, "hands or feet" or "clubs and hammers" than with any
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:30 PM
Dec 2013

type of rifle. TRUE

The post uses data selectively, ignoring the significant role of handguns in gun violence. But the statistics it mentions are solid. FBI data backs up the Facebook post’s claim that in 2011, more people were murdered with knives, "hands or feet" or "clubs and hammers" than with any type of rifle. We rate the statement True.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jan/18/facebook-posts/facebook-post-says-more-people-were-murdered-knive/

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
12. Colorado just had another school shooting. Claire Davis died
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 05:35 PM
Dec 2013

right before Christmas from being shot in the head at Arapahoe High School.

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
94. That was a teribble thing to happen.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 08:22 AM
Dec 2013

Does that mean all shotguns should be banned or does it mean that more attention should be paid to individuals with mental health problems?

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
188. Have you ever seen an automatic pistol?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 10:32 PM
Dec 2013

<a href=".html" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt=" photo AutoII_zpsb1440b9d.jpg"/></a>

I love the firearms "jargon police"!

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
196. "Semi-automatic" vs. automatic........ clip vs. magazine............
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:29 PM
Dec 2013

Glad you seem to recognize the folly of the gungeon "jargon red herring"!

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
198. I have and actually fired one several times,
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:33 PM
Dec 2013

the Glock G18 9mm select fire handgun. Not too bad of a auto handgun.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
202. George Zimmerman has one of these.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:58 PM
Dec 2013

Hell, he even got a VIP factory tour before he got one!

In fact, his girl friend claimed he pointed it at her!

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
203. GZ is a murderer who got lucky and got away with it
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 12:00 AM
Dec 2013

He should be in a prison cell for the rest of his life.
Now that I've gotten that rant out of me I feel better.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
206. Yep
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 12:20 AM
Dec 2013

And we can do what to stop that? He was found not guilty of the charges. I may not agree with it but that is the facts.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
211. did you read my post?
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 12:56 AM
Dec 2013

I do not agree with it but I also was not in the jury that had all of the facts. I defer to our jury system.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
212. so what would you do now?
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 12:59 AM
Dec 2013

go hunt him down, throw him in jail for what. I am sure you have a plan to punish him even though he was found not guilty by his peers in a court of law.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
205. Not my type
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 12:18 AM
Dec 2013

I prefer my old bolt action rifles, my AR for its modular design. Do not have the use for a shotgun. The VP says I should have one though.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
214. bullpup holds 14 rounds
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:08 AM
Dec 2013

so would 10 be good, I guess that other 4 make it that much more dangerous.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
215. 14 rounds, very high capacity
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:10 AM
Dec 2013

I guess 10 would be enough in a pump action shotgun. The pump action has only been around for over 100+ years.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
218. Actually it's much higher capacity!
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:22 AM
Dec 2013

Ever seen those little Aguila short buck and slug shells?

Now? What is the capacity of that shotgun that Zimmerman owns?

kcr

(15,378 posts)
7. Doesn't matter, they're wearing off their little fingers furiously alerting
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 04:50 PM
Dec 2013

The community doesn't want to discuss this. Hide! Hide!

Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #11)

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
57. don't do FR
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:39 AM
Dec 2013

as I do not agree with them on issues, so I have no username

Do not know what CC is so I guess I do not have a user name.

I suppose you do not know what DUCKHUNTER means either.

And if you looked up some of my posts I am in favor of control measures that would actually make a difference and not just cosmetic or feel good measures.

Questions for you, When has a bayonet lug killed anyone? Why ban it?

Why can two rifles, each with the exact same operational parts have one banned and one legal just because one has an adjustable stock?

Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #57)

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
64. no, I am not. because yours is a red herring. bringing something up the OP nor I had mentioned
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:11 AM
Dec 2013

something about AR-15's being all about cosmetics and so-called "assault rifles" being just one feature different than normal rifle blah blah blah.


Let's focus on those and not highly restricting/banning high capacity magazines or getting universal background checks so private purchases and gun show purchases are also subject to background checks.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
69. you know most gun show purchases do have background checks
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:24 AM
Dec 2013

By federal law, ALL FFL dealers must perform them and that is most booths at any gun show. It is not a GUN SHOW loophole it is a PRIVATE SALE loophole but the former sounds bad. Now private sales between two people within the same state (intrastate private seller transfer) may happen in the parking lot or in a persons garage. Since this is state controlled it may differ by state. I agree lets do something about that. How about opening NICS up for private sales? How about making sure all mental heath records are in NICS? How about ensuring all domestic violence convictions are in NICS, same with restraining orders? The database is only as good as the data in it. 100% check with bad or missing data is useless.

How about issuing a license to purchase and own a firearm. Could be by type and you would have to demonstrate firearms safety and handling. Background check could be done when issued. Have it buy a weapon no waiting period. Transfers done through FFL to verify.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
77. I agree with the overall approach you mention
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:42 AM
Dec 2013

also, how about the fucking NRA-fed Rethuglicans stopping their attempts to starve ATF of leadership and funds they need to adequately enforce the existing gun laws?

That is the coldest form of cynicism in this debate. Everyone in the citizens' lobbying arm for gun companies (NRA) love to spout "how about we enforce the current gun laws instead of writing new ones"? Uh, yeah dipshits...how about your fuckwit GOP congressperson stop voting against appropriations needed to staff the folks who do the enforcement?

And how about we both ENFORCE EXISTING LAWS and work on passing sensible NEW LAWS?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
80. Yep, I could go down to a gun show, set up a booth and sell a number of semi-autos
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:43 AM
Dec 2013

at premium prices to folks who seek me out because they want a gun but can't pass the lax bckground check. I'd benefit from gun show promoters advertising and the yahoos it draws. I can't do it too often, or i'd need a license. But I could do it, if callous as most gun fanciers, but I don't want to be involved in trading lethal weapons to gun yahoos. That is the very definition of a loophole.

The gun apologists try to call that "private sales," like it's perfectfully OK for gun traffickers to sell a gun in a back alley for a fistful of dollars. Private sales without a licensed dealer -- to check background and keep documentation -- involved should be a felony a well.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
98. If you did that the ATFE would arrest you for "commerce in firearms without a license"
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 10:06 AM
Dec 2013

Then you would be doing ten years in Club Fed.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
99. Ummmm, no, you can't Hoyt.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 11:54 AM
Dec 2013

You could sell one or two, but any more than that and you'll get a very unpleasant visit from the ATF with the added bonus of a possible 10 year sentence at a Club Fed of the govt's choosing.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
102. How many guns can you sell without an FFL?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:33 PM
Dec 2013

You said one or two. Which is it? Or how about three or four?

How many firearms is a non-FFL private individual permitted to sell? What does the law state?

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
104. At a gun show?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:40 PM
Dec 2013

If you set a booth and try to sell more than 2, the local cops or ATF are gonna want to see an FFL.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
107. There aren't any specific rules,
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:47 PM
Dec 2013

but if you set up a booth at a gun show and attempt to sell guns, you're probably going to get a visit from the locals or the on site ATF agent.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
108. So what?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:03 PM
Dec 2013

That means that the ATF can't do a damn thing about it.

Since you seem unable to cite the law that validates your claim, look at this passage in 18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—
(A) is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent resident alien of the United States;

(B) involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States; and

(C) is intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

Now, what if I claim I'm just "liquidating part of my collection"?

sir pball

(4,836 posts)
141. Nope. Which is why I support universal FFL transfers.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:31 AM
Dec 2013

Every gun sold in the US should be transferred via FFL, recorded in their bound book for later LE scrutiny if needed. No computerized database, no registration, just a paper trail. It's how I've deaccessioned every firearm I've ever sold and had no problem with it. There's no database for the Feds to ID gun owners (nevermind a CCW already does that), let alone into on what we all own...but every firearm has a paper trail.

I mean, who would argue that?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
143. Unfortunately, gun fanciers like to have option of buying and selling in back alley
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:52 AM
Dec 2013

for a fistful of cash. Otherwise, they fear they will lose profits on gun sales, or more importantly, lose access to gunz if they pull a Zimmerman and get rightly convicted.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
112. From page 5 of the form 4473
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:14 PM
Dec 2013

From page 5 of the form 4473

It is unlawful for a person to engage in the business of dealing in firearms without a license. A person is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms if he/she devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A license is not required of a person who only makes occasional sales,exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his/her personal collection of firearms.

gun shows have no special loophole and state laws very as this is an intrastate transaction

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
121. Yes, there is a loophole. Folks who are not engaged in business of dealing firearms can sell
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:44 PM
Dec 2013

them to any yahoo with a fistful of cash without a background check. There are a bunch of yahoos at guns shows.

Here's a diverse crowd waiting to get into a gun show to buy "assault" weapons just one week after Sandy Hook:




Loopholes are not illegal. For example, the mortgage interest deduction is considered a loophole.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
131. Now, *there's* some hard evidence-photos with no attribution!
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 05:19 PM
Dec 2013

"Here's some people I don't like, therefore guns are bad, mmkay?"

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
125. See post #108 above and you'll see that liquidating your collection is NOT engaging in business.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:57 PM
Dec 2013

That's how that works. Thank dog for the NRA sponsored passage of The Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA).

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
110. So, I can do it. Actually, it's more than 2. I can also sell in the parking lot, or
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:37 PM
Dec 2013

run an ad in the paper and make transfer in person. Many gun fanciers do just that.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
116. And your point is?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:34 PM
Dec 2013

Until such time as the Congress changes the law, it's perfectly legal, except in some states where all transactions have to have a background check.

I'm all for every firearm transaction having a b/c.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
122. And until such time as those are made illegal,
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:46 PM
Dec 2013

then there's nothing that can be done about what you deem immoral and not good for our society.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
127. they would have more credibility
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:10 PM
Dec 2013

if they would quit lying on the GUN SHOW loophole and INTERNET purchases. They know it is not true and the may actually get more support if they would push the private sale angle instead of trying to confuse low information people.

I have no issues with background checks, been through plenty of them. They would be better if they had all of of the information to make a good decision but then people will scream about mental health privacy. Probably some that are yelling the loudest for UBC.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
149. The "Gun Show Loophole" is NOT a lie.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 01:30 PM
Dec 2013

I don't see how you can say that the gun show loophole "is a lie", when at the same time you quote the existing laws that show it's a loophole in the law that you could drive a truck through!

You're not very consistent or believable.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
151. so I can only sell to a private citizen at a GUNSHOW?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:08 PM
Dec 2013

No it is a private intrastate sale that can happen ANYWHERE. Can you get that. MOST GUN SHOW sales are done by FFL dealers and by law have a background check.

There is nothing in the law about gun shows and exceptions to the law, please show me one, just one that states gun shows are exempt from background checks.


PLEASE POINT ME TO THIS GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE- I would like to see this in writing since it is not a lie

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
154. No, but a gun show provides a very good platform to conduct your illicit sales!
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:23 PM
Dec 2013

No private intrastate sale can take place? Are you kidding?

Where is there a requirement for a private seller to demand proof of residence from a private buyer?

Good luck with those NRA talking points. It's not hard to expose them as pure BS!

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
157. private intrastate sales can happen anywhere
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:57 PM
Dec 2013

If I was interested in selling a car I might go to a CAR SHOW. People interested in that product. Same with a firearm, some may want to sell where buyers are concentrated. Not a gun show loophole but how any legal product is sold. States have different laws since it is within the state rules will very. So yes the GUN SHOW loophole bullshit IS a lie. It is a private sale of a legal item performed by two individuals and can happen at a gun show or anywhere else within the state as long as state laws allow. Like I said before I support UBC and I would prefer all transactions to be verified at an FFL with NICS loaded with all good information. I would like NICS opened up to the public. But to pass bullshit information out like it is some fact just makes it harder to get these things done.

You you could not show me this non-existent gun show loophole could you. IT DOES NOT EXIST!

It is a LIE

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
159. Gun-Control Advocates Drop 'Gun Show Loophole' Talking Point
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:10 PM
Dec 2013

You are behind please update your "TALKING POINTS"

http://www.governing.com/blogs/politics/gov-gun-control-advocates-drop-gun-show-loophole-talking-point.html

"Assuming that 40 percent of all gun sales come from private party transactions and unlicensed dealers are responsible for about one-third of all gun-show sales, Wintemute estimated that guns sold at gun shows represent between 3.3 percent and 7.5 percent of all private gun sales."

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
162. name a couple of those killers?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:32 PM
Dec 2013

I am done here since you fail to understand plain facts and just spout talking points and nothing else. I hope you have a great day.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
163. Those points are real facts..real law...sorry they don't match with your NRA "talking points"!
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:36 PM
Dec 2013

Buh-bye! Have a nice day!

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
222. It's funny how the biggest pro-rkba folks are also the loudest voices against talking about it in GD
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:15 AM
Dec 2013

It's almost as if they know that the more it gets talked about here, the greater the chance of their veils of "Sure, I really am a Progressive Liberal Democrat" will accidentally slip away and they'll show their true colors, and they might get banned, again.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
223. Funny to those against guns perhaps.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:47 AM
Dec 2013

Progressive Liberal Democrat does not by definition, however, mean "against guns".

Most of us think its "funny", that you guys got a forum specifically for "gun control", with an SOP craftily created and strictly enforced to exclude pro-gun viewpoints, discussed pre-emptively blocking people from it for holding them, and even had hosts of that forum discussing in the hosts forum, how to bait/hide/ban pro-gun posters.

And funny that you or others for that matter, would complain about anyone asking for the same level of SOP adherence and enforcement in GD, that you guys demand in your own protected group.

Theres a word for that, and it begins with the letter H...






 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
225. Says the poster who proposed the pre-emptive blocking of pro-gun posters from the gun control forum.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:57 AM
Dec 2013

Says the poster who proposed the pre-emptive blocking of pro-gun posters from the gun control forum.

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
228. Are you saying you'd be in favor of allowing flat-earthers to post in a forum dedicated to geology?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 03:16 AM
Dec 2013

It would not be conducive to constructive discussion or debate. It would degenerate into similar nonsense being repeated over and over by those immune to evidence. Kind of like your sides "more guns everywhere makes people safer" faith based nonsense.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
229. I'm saying that I appreciate your confirmation that you guys block based on identity...
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:14 AM
Dec 2013

I'm saying that I appreciate your confirmation that you guys block based on identity rather than post content.

Of course, we already knew that because you guys have already demonstrated that, but its nice of you to confirm it for all to see.

"It would not be conducive to constructive discussion or debate."

That's hilarious. You guys don't want discussion or debate. You want an echo chamber, as evidenced by the SOP of your group, the strict application and enforcement of it for some but not others (yes Virginia, half the posts by pro-more-control posters do not meet the SOP of your little group, but its allowed, because you know, "guns bad&quot , and your proposal of pre-emptively blocking people for their beliefs rather than what they post.

And an echo chamber, you guys got. Good for you.

But not good enough apparently.

So pro-gun posters retaliate by SOP alerting in GD - to put a finer point on it - Pro-gun posters attempt to have the GD SOP as strictly adhered to and enforced as your own little group, and you guys complain. That's the textbook definition of hypocrisy - Rules for thee but not for me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594429


"Kind of like your sides "more guns everywhere makes people safer" faith based nonsense."

That's a popular strawman. Not a single poster here says "more guns everywhere makes people safer".

Not.A.Single.One.

You knew that, yet grossly misrepresent and mischaracterize the positions of pro-gun posters just the same.

In short, you guys are all about strict adherence and selective enforcement of your SOP in your group, which I would be most willing to provide proof of should you choose to deny it since its all over every single page of that forum, but expect to be treated to loose adherence requirements and enforcement of the SOP in GD.

I'd be happy to stop pointing out hypocrisy, as soon as I see it cease.


 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
230. re: "Not.A.Single.One." You're sure about that, are you?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:35 AM
Dec 2013

If I were sufficiently motivated I'm sure I could dig up a few posts like that from the gungeon here, re: carrying in schools or churches, for example. At this point, I don't know why I'm bothering with you at all, though. It's not like we're going to convince each other to change their minds.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
231. I'm quite certain. Plus, those are not examples.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:01 PM
Dec 2013

"re: carrying in schools or churches"

You're moving the goalposts.

Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of "everywhere".

You said "more guns everywhere makes people safer", and attributed it to my "side". That makes it ok to attribute "ban them all" to "your side" right? Since there are far more "ban them all" types on your side, than there are "eliminate all gun laws" types on mine here on DU. That would be right proper fair and accurate according to the rules "your side" demonstrates that they operate by right?

This has become far less about guns, here on DU, and far more about behavior, namely that of "your side". Behavior as in the way your side interact with those of who are pro gun. Sexist insults (penis extension), false attribution of words, sentiments and positions to posters that do not hold them like you did in one of your previous posts in this subthread, outright insults, goalpost moves like the one you did in this subthread.

You shouldn't need to be reminded you that such behavior is no demonstration of any intention to discuss anything in good faith, and is in fact quite contrary to any but the most twisted definition of the term.

That or your definition of "good faith" is far far different than...just about anyone elses.


You tell me.










 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
233. Non sequitur.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:20 PM
Dec 2013

You said "Kind of like your sides "more guns everywhere makes people safer" faith based nonsense."

You said something which was an absolute, and applied it to everyone on the pro-gun side of the debate on DU.

Again, its about behaviors such as that, and as much as I know you'd like to pretend it just isn't so, your words and what you intended when you authored them just isn't going to go away.

Debates and discussions are perfect examples of events where you shouldn't need behave that way, if you intend to debate and discuss in good faith.

Do you?




 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
234. You're trying to argue that "Everywhere" doesn't include Schools and Churches?
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:25 PM
Dec 2013

Talking about debating in good faith, you've failed miserably yet again. LOL

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
235. No, I'm arguing that "everywhere" means "everywhere".
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 08:32 PM
Dec 2013

Now you're attributing to me an argument I did not make.

False attribution - Color me shocked.


 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
237. And? The discussion is about your false attribution, not the things covered by "everywhere".
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 10:19 PM
Dec 2013

But you knew that.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
6. Nope. This is a post about a racist, militia type, who just happens to use gunz to intimidate.
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 04:50 PM
Dec 2013

That's a big percentage of gun owners in America.

Why don't you join in demonizing these folks, rather than trying to hide the posts which describe a bunch of America's gun fanciers.

spin

(17,493 posts)
16. In order to actually intimidate a person with a firearm a responsible gun owner ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 06:25 PM
Dec 2013

would have to display it or point it at another person. In Florida, even with a concealed weapons permit this would be considered to be brandishing a weapon and could easily get a person in a world of trouble with law enforcement.

Of course if some fool breaks into my home and I point a firearm at him, I hope he is intimidated and follows my instructions or runs (in which case I will not shoot him).

Of course in some states open carry of firearms in public is legal. I will agree that individuals who carry a rifle or an openly displayed holstered handgun at a political rally may be trying to intimidate others. In my personal opinion doing so makes them look like fools and does little to advance their political agenda. This often occurs at Tea Party gatherings and makes the Tea Party movement look uneducated and dangerous. Since I am not a tea bagger, I don't really care as long as these idiots handle their weapons in a safe manner. It surprises me that the leadership of this movement doesn't discourage such activity. If I lived in a state that allowed open carry and witnessed an individual at a political meeting acting in such a rude manner, I would politely point out that he was making responsible gun owners look bad.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
19. Not true. Take this militia gun fancier. He intimidates by sending hi Cap mags to government offic
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 07:09 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Open Carry sickos intimidate. And, it is not that hard to spot most concealed carriers, especially the racist/bigoted ones which make up the majority.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
25. "not that hard to spot...especially the racist/bigoted ones which make up the majority"
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 07:38 PM
Dec 2013

Did you get your degree in telepsychology before or after the one in phrenology?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
30. Gun fanciers are by and large, bigots and view minorities as thugs. Not 100%,
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:33 PM
Dec 2013

but well over 50%. Are you saying that you weren't reasonably sure Robertson is a gun fancying bigot long before he said it in print?

spin

(17,493 posts)
42. I have absolutely no idea if Robertson is a racist or not. ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 10:31 PM
Dec 2013

All the uproar about what he said did cause me to record two episodes of Duck Dynasty. I watched one and skimmed the other. I fail to see why the program is so successful.

It does seem he dislikes those who follow a homosexual lifestyle. I suspect that he is a fundamental Christian who feels the Bible is the literal word of God and is unaware that Christ never condemned homosexuals and that also there are numerous problems involved in translating the Bible from Aramaic and Greek while preserving the original meaning.

I have known and worked with a good number of gay people and have found them to be in general to be extremely intelligent and overall good and honest people. Some owned firearms and had concealed weapons permits as they had good reason to fear bigoted heterosexuals.

spin

(17,493 posts)
91. He may well be a racist. I simply do not have enough info to from that opinion.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 04:07 AM
Dec 2013

His comments on Blacks that I have read were:


"I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once," the reality star said of growing up in pre-Civil-Rights-era Louisiana. "Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I'm with the blacks, because we're white trash. We're going across the field ... They're singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, 'I tell you what: These doggone white people' — not a word!"

Robertson continued, "Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues."
http://tv.yahoo.com/blogs/tv-news/-duck-dynasty--star-phil-robertson-digs-his-hole-a-little-deeper-by-also-stinging-african-americans-173821415.html


The blacks he knew might well have been hesitant to express their views in front of white people and if Robertson was actually working with them in a cotton field they might have viewed him as one of the few good white people and been very friendly with him.

I'm not defending Phil Robertson but I am hesitant to label a person as a racist without more information. If he is, I'm sure the media will dig up other comments that he has made in the past that are more conclusive. I'll hold my judgment until then.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
44. *You* made the claim re "most concealed carriers"
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 10:46 PM
Dec 2013

Now, when your obvious lack of evidence is pointed out, you redirect attention to the
AW Robinson.

One is a racist jerk, therefore most of them are? Thin gruel, even for you.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
84. Go to any gun show or store, tell me who is drooling over weapons?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:02 AM
Dec 2013

Look at ads for gunz. Look at the militia groups, targets that resemble humans including Trayvon Martin, look at NRA leadership, etc. Go to just about anything related to gunz, racists/bigots are way too common. Maybe you just don't recognize it because they pretty much are all the same, certainly callous enough to be a bigot.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
100. I've been to plenty of firearms shows,
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 11:59 AM
Dec 2013

not once did I ever see anyone "drooling over weapons". Your hyperbole is really getting out of hand, you should think of something new to post.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
88. pot.kettle.black
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:30 AM
Dec 2013

And while I thought for a long time you were just trolling, I now realize you actually believe that broad-brush horseshit. The very definition of bigotry...

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
132. Hoyt, we know the reason for your animosity towards most gun owners
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 05:41 PM
Dec 2013

Quoth you: "As a former robber, I locked the door to keep people out, especially police."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

And there's the nub of the gist:

You're one of those annoying types sometimes found in various 'recovery' programs
that just knows that anyone and everyone that engages in a behavior
that they themselves can't handle also has the same problem- anyone that drinks is an alcoholic,
anyone that tokes at all is a Spicoli-level stoner, everyone that likes dessert
will end up weighing 400 lbs.

"The first step in controlling your drinking is acknowledging that everyone else has
a problem"...

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
134. I've read *all* your posts in context. You have a problem with guns...
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 06:04 PM
Dec 2013

...therefore everyone has a problem with guns.

I've heard much the same from some dry drunks and Overeaters Anonymous types.
Nothing new under the sun.

spin

(17,493 posts)
31. Unlike you I don't find an inanimate object intimidating in the least. ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:42 PM
Dec 2013

A steel box with a spring inside doesn't scare me. Even it was loaded with ammo I would realize that it was harmless unless inserted into a firearm.

I also take exception with your assertion that the majority of people who legally carry concealed are "racist/bigoted". A minority are but most are responsible and honest citizens especially if they live in a state that requires a criminal background check to obtain a carry permit. I and most other people I know who legally carry are not overly afraid of being attacked by an individual who happens to be Black or Hispanic but realize that race in no way determines who is a criminal or might suffer from a serious mental problem that makes them dangerous.

You often suggest that most people who carry concealed are afraid to leave their houses without at least a couple of guns strapped to their body. I have never met a Floridian with a carry permit who had a BUG (back up gun). In fact almost all carry light weight low powered handguns with a magazine that holds less than 10 rounds or a revolver that carries at the most six rounds. Of course to be fair I live in Florida where the heat makes concealing a full sized handgun difficult. Still if those who legally carry concealed were as paranoid as you often suggest, they would find a way to conceal a pistol with a 17 round magazine.

I also doubt that if you encountered me or most people who legally carry concealed you would be able to tell if we were carrying a concealed weapon. Those who legally carry go out of their way to wear proper clothing and carry in a manner that prevents their weapon from "printing". I've legally carried a handgun for well over fifteen years and I doubt if anyone including numerous police officers that I have talked to ever realized it. I probably simply strike most people as a polite older gentleman with a noticeable limp because of a bad hip and back.

I first got a concealed weapons permit when I lived in a crime ridden area in the Tampa Bay Area. Now that I am retired I live in a small rural town in north Florida with a surprising high crime rate. I realize that my limp makes me to appear to be a weak member of the herd and consequently a target for a mugger.

Once when I was out walking my daughter's dog I was approached by a panhandler who acted somewhat suspicious. He asked me for a buck and I calmly replied that I didn't even have my wallet on me. I had no real fear of him but he struck me as somewhat dangerous. The situation ended peacefully but when I described this individual to a cop who was rooming with us, he immediately knew who he was. He had recently got out of prison and was known to mug elderly people in order to get money for his drug habit. Like me he had a noticeable limp but the cop told me he could run like the wind when chased. Two weeks later he was arrested and now is back in prison.

Had he attacked me I would have first used what remains of my martial arts skill to stop his attack. If that failed as a last resort I would have drawn my snub nosed revolver and shot him. Was I scared half to death? Absolutely not. I was prepared. My attitude is not unusual among those that I know who legally carry concealed . We are not paranoid or overly fearful. We practice situation awareness to avoid potentially dangerous situations and that tactic almost always guarantees that we will not be attacked by someone who intends to put us in the hospital or six feet under. If we are attacked we have one of the most effective means available to stop the assault. Therefore we have little to fear. We also realize that we are not police officers with a badge and uniform dedicated to stop crime nor are we vigilantes looking for an excuse to blow someone away.

I fear you live in a fantasy world and have an unrealistic fear of those who are licensed to carry. Admittedly we are not all angels but neither are we like Zimmerman who was, in my opinion, a cop wanna be looking for trouble and hoping to be viewed as a hero.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
34. Unfortunately, Spin, there are a lot of Zimmermans and militia types carrying. To keep you happy,
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:50 PM
Dec 2013

we have to allow them to pollute society, give criminals easy access to guns, allow bigots like in the OP to arm up, and even worse stuff.

spin

(17,493 posts)
41. I will agree that there are militia types around. ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 10:12 PM
Dec 2013

One showed up at the range I used to shoot at in the Tampa Bay Area and tried to recruit members. As soon as realized what his objective was, we chased him off.

I also remember being in a grocery store in 1985 buying supplies (beer) for an incoming hurricane (Elena) that was supposed to strike the Tampa Bay Area and seeing a member of a Florida militia group in a camouflage outfit with a openly displayed .45 automatic in a holster on his belt. Apparently the police were too busy to respond and arrest this idiot. I don't really see such people as all that dangerous as I feel their organizations are well infiltrated by our government which is in my opinion a damn good thing.

Only one gun owner that I have personally known well over the years belonged to a militia. He was a co-worker and he also tried to enlist me. I have absolutely no interest in wearing fatigues and running around in the woods playing soldier with a bunch of other idiots on the weekend. I politely refused his offer.

We might be able to make some real progress in addressing the criminal misuse of firearms if only our party was willing to stop trying to ban assault weapons such as the AR-15 and impose magazine size restrictions. I honestly believed that a requirement for universal background checks might have passed at the Federal level until Dianne Feinstein tried to push through another assault weapons ban. That poisoned the chances for any real improvements to our current federal gun control laws.

Most members of minority communities are amazed at how friendly white gun owners can be. I can't speak for all gun ranges but all that I have shot at welcomed everybody and their race or gender was never a problem. If a person goes to most gun ranges and shows an interest in shooting he will most likely find a member more than willing to teach him/her the basics including how to safely handle a firearm.





 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
24. Still flogging Robert Bork's theory of "moral harm", Hoyt?
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 07:29 PM
Dec 2013
Dan Baum said in a recent Harper's article (August, 2010)..

.....My friends who are appalled by the thought of widespread concealed weapons aren't impressed by this argument, or by the research demonstrating no ill effects of the shall-issue revolution. "I don't care," said one. "I don't feel safe knowing that people are walking around with guns. What about my right to feel safe? Doesn't that count for anything?"

Robert Bork tried out that argument in 1971, in defense of prosecuting such victimless crimes as drug abuse, writing in the Indiana Law Journal that “knowledge that an activity is taking place is a harm to those who find it profoundly immoral.”

It’s as bad an argument now as it was then. We may not like it that other people are doing things we revile—smoking pot, enjoying pornography, making gay love, or carrying a gun—but if we aren’t adversely affected by it, the Constitution and common decency argue for leaving it alone. My friend may feel less safe because people are wearing concealed guns, but the data suggest she isn't less safe....
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
32. We aren't talking about Robert Bork, we are talking about gun fanciers and the price they make
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:45 PM
Dec 2013

society pay for their sick little habit, addiction, hobby, solution/compensator to fear of others, etc.

Dan Baum is just slightly more tolerable than Massab Ayoob. Who cares what some gun fancier -- that can't walk out of his house without a gun tucked in his pants, and maybe another on his ankle -- has to say? They obviously aren't rational and care little about society.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
45. Feh. Issue posturing on a par with the WCTU and Harry J. Anslinger
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 10:48 PM
Dec 2013

I know it chaps you and your cohorts that you've consistently failed to gin up
a moral panic. One might almost feel sorry for you, were it not for the damage your
sort does in swing states like Colorado...

spin

(17,493 posts)
46. I have little fear of others for good reason. ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 11:01 PM
Dec 2013

I am armed and have a good amount of experience with shooting handguns both for target shooting and for the more martial art of using a firearm for self defense. (There is a considerable difference similar to the difference between judo and jujitsu.) I also practice "situational awareness" which in 99% of real life incidents will protect a person from being attacked.

Once again I have never known a person with a civilian permit to carry who felt a need to carry a BUG (back up gun) in Florida and I know a fairly large number of people who have concealed weapons permits in my state. Police officers often do carry a BUG but they commonly face far more danger than any civilian.

Carrying a back up gun for a civilian is most likely a idea promoted by the gun industry to increase sales.

I have only known one civilian who carried a handgun in an ankle holster and he was a gun store owner. Using an ankle holster has to be one of the most uncomfortable and least effective ways to carry a concealed handgun.

Criminals and uneducated fools without training are usually the people who leave their house carrying a gun "tucked in their pants". Honest citizens with any understanding of concealed carry use a holster. The criminal knows that being caught with an empty holster after running from the police will lead to a search for the weapon they threw away. Honest citizens with a carry permit do not have to worry about this.





 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
51. This is news. It can be inferred that such a move was meant to be a threat to an elected official
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 11:55 PM
Dec 2013

so I treat it as a definitely newsworthy item.

You know. Because we have a bunch of gun humping fuckheads running around this country showing off their psychosis on a daily basis.

Some of them even post on this site.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
58. Daily basis?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:42 AM
Dec 2013

Have not seen those idiots in months. Post some pictures of them today.

Please point out the ones posting on this site, I dare you. In fact I double dog dare you.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
59. I'm not that dumb to call humpers out
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:49 AM
Dec 2013

you know who they are. And the gun psychosis manifests itself daily in this country. You're too busy arguing the finer points of gun nomenclature to actually care.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
62. I leave that to the Congress and their staff to sort out correct terminology
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:09 AM
Dec 2013

wherease this is a message board where some would rather argue intricacies rather than overarching substance.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
63. I always enjoy some sinking to
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:10 AM
Dec 2013

the name calling stage. I am glad I do not have to sink that low.


I think you are better than that also

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
65. it's shorthand for the obvious worship of guns some have that borders on the phallic
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:12 AM
Dec 2013

as I've had more than ample evidence of in past forays into this topic.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
70. I just have a few and shoot targets
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:27 AM
Dec 2013

Once every few months, I do not worship them, they are what they are. They are in my gun safe now. One of my favorites is almost 90 years old.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
74. when I reference that, I am obviously not including all nor even the majority of gun owners
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:30 AM
Dec 2013

I grew up around guns and used them frequently. But I haven't fired a gun in over 20 years. Just no real strong urge to. though I did enjoy trying my skill at marksmanship with targets way back in the day.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
76. Thank you very much for that.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:35 AM
Dec 2013

After encountering broad-brush nonsense like Hoyt spews ("the majority of gun owners are racist&quot , it's hard not to respond by hardening one's own position.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
86. We need to try to keep gun fanciers laughing. Maybe they will become less callous.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:13 AM
Dec 2013

Maybe they will someday accept that society is more important than their gunz and all the negatives that go with them.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
89. Parrot-like repetition of a false dilemma doesn't actually make it true, logical, or even rational.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:32 AM
Dec 2013
 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
101. I've said it before Hoyt, but it bears repeating,
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:02 PM
Dec 2013

you are the gift that just keeps on giving to the pro gun movement.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
73. Provides a nice contrast, doesn't it?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:30 AM
Dec 2013

Besides, there's nothing like a nice effusion of bullshit amateur psychoanalysis to bring forth the belly laughs.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
20. Apparently you overlooked this sicko's SPLC bio. He's your typical uneducated, racist,
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 07:11 PM
Dec 2013

Last edited Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

militia, terrorist, gun weasel type. I guess that's OK with you?

 

Blanket Statements

(556 posts)
21. Does hating him make your day better?
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 07:14 PM
Dec 2013

I won't visit his website nor will I give him time out of my day

GReedDiamond

(5,331 posts)
56. Here it is, served up especially for you...
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:29 AM
Dec 2013

...four paragraphs from the Southern Poverty Law Center web site:

In 2010, after Congress passed President Obama’s health care reform bill, Vanderboegh used his Sipsey Street Irregulars blog to urge opponents to throw bricks through the windows of Democratic offices nationwide. “Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night,” he wrote.

Thugs responded in several U.S. cities, including Wichita, Kan., Rochester, N.Y., and Tucson, Ariz., where bricks shattered the office windows of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat who was later shot in the head by a deranged gunman with no known ties to Vanderboegh. At least 10 Democrats in Congress reported harassment, vandalism or death threats.

Vanderboegh was unapologetic, telling The Washington Post that the attacks were a legitimate warning to Democratic lawmakers that health care reform could lead to civil war. Throwing bricks, he said, “is both good manners and it’s also a moral duty to try to warn people.”


-snip-

At the same time, he tried to portray himself as a moderate, denouncing neo-Nazis and posturing as a civic improver by leading attacks on a botched gun investigation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. In that role, he has been regularly consulted as an expert by Fox News, which hasn’t bothered to mention his background as a militia leader or instigator of criminal brick-throwing attacks.

Kingofalldems

(38,735 posts)
113. So you make light of the actions of a person
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:28 PM
Dec 2013

who has threatened violence against Democrats? Interesting.

See post 103.

Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #113)

Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #119)

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
50. which happens to fit into a gun perfectly and perfectly hold 30 rounds of ammo
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 11:52 PM
Dec 2013

so enough with the "what, I don't know what you're talking about?" kind of attitude.

Let me ask. Do you have children? If someone shot your child in the face repeatedly until it was unrecognizable and your young child's only crime was going to school and obediently lining up to be shot dead, then you might be more interested in controls on the ubiquity of guns in our society.

As it is, my guess is you haven't procreated.

bobclark86

(1,415 posts)
117. Well...
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:37 PM
Dec 2013


You're going to make me defend a crazy-ass nutjob, aren't you?

Nah, fuck that.

But I will say this: Jumping from "A box with a spring" to a graphic depiction of someone's child dying in a horrible fashion is, well, an appeal to emotion and not an argument. It's a logical fallacy that makes people post memes of Ron Burgundy. Oh, and the personal attack about not having kids.

frylock

(34,825 posts)
18. the entire raison d'etre of gun nuts is to stick it to libtards..
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 06:47 PM
Dec 2013

this asshole's asshole buddies are probably setting him up at the bar, and slapping him on the back.

 

hollowdweller

(4,229 posts)
38. That was in poor taste
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:04 PM
Dec 2013

Especially sending the one to CT.

I think the whole in your face with guns thing a lot of gun rights people are pushing is a bad move and will eventually lead to a backlash.

Also the refusal even to increase screening to try to keep them out of crazies hands is a REALLY bad move if we continue to have more mass shootings.

I love guns. I like collecting them. Shooting them. Enjoy hunting.

There has always been a macho element in the gun culture, but anymore there is a really juvenile element.
Guys marching around with guns made to look like military guns and sending clips to politicians. Sheesh! Grow up.

I think it's a combination of things, but really, I think where we are more urban. Nobody hunts much anymore so there is this whole industry popping up that's all about paranoia and end times porn and selling guns that look like military guns to cater to that mindset.

Hell if you want to play soldier join the army and they'll let you shoot a real full auto and send you somewhere where people shoot back. Why play with semi automatic military knock offs and march around in some parking lot saying your are a patriot??

People need to grow up.

spin

(17,493 posts)
47. I basically agree with you but ...
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 11:13 PM
Dec 2013

I live in one of the poorest counties in the United States.

Hunting deer and hog in my area is very common and many people stock their freezers up with deer meat during the hunting season and hog during the off season as feral hogs can be hunted year around as they are considered to be pests not native to and damaging to the environment.

In passing I feel we might have been able to pass a requirement for a universal background check (which I support) on all gun sales at the national level if only Dianne Feinstein not pushed for another assault weapons ban. She poisoned the waters for any real improvements to our national gun laws and also caused the sales of AR-15s and other assault weapons to skyrocket.

 

hollowdweller

(4,229 posts)
48. What you said makes no sense to me
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 11:44 PM
Dec 2013

Either you are responding to somebody else or I'm totally misunderstanding what your point is.

I was commenting on how juvenile the gun culture is these days with the fascination on military knock off rifles.

As I said in my previous post that you replied to I hunt myself. I eat what I hunt too. I often say the only natural resource managed to the benefit of all citizens here in WV is the deer herd.

I think you misunderstood I was somehow criticizing hunters.

Also there was no assault weapons ban in Manchin Toomey, so I'm not sure how Feinstein had anything to do with that.
 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
54. she just poisoned the well for all
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:03 AM
Dec 2013

weapons legislation. UBC is fine until you get to the details. I have no real issues with it as long as all of the needed information is available to NICS unlike now.

spin

(17,493 posts)
90. My response was to your comment. ...
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:38 AM
Dec 2013

"Nobody hunts much anymore ."

Where I currently live almost everybody hunts for deer and hog including grandmothers, wives and children. It may be true that in many areas of our nation, interest in hunting has dropped but not here.

When I first moved here I remember an elderly grandmother bragging in a hardware store of how she bagged her first deer of the black powder season. My daughter had several female friends in their thirties who would bow hunt for deer in the archery season.

While I enjoy shooting, I have never hunted animals nor do I have any interest in doing so. Still I have no problems with hunting as long as the animals harvested are used for food not just for trophies.

Just yesterday I was talking to a local resident and friend who hunts deer and hog on a regular basis. I asked him if any hunters in this area were using AR-15s to hunt game. He replied that AR rifles were beginning to catch on but most local hunters that he knows who use an AR chose a larger caliber round than .223. The AR-10 using the .308 round or a an AR-15 modified to fire a .308 are becoming increasingly common. Modifying an AR-15 to fire a different caliber is fairly simple and does not require a gunsmith. All that's necessary is to swap out the upper receiver.

The fact that the AR-15 is so easy to modify largely explains its popularity and why the gun culture is so fascinated with this weapon. It really isn't as juvenile as you think.

Configuring and Accessorizing Your AR-15

One of the virtues of the AR platform is its modular design, and the ability to customize it in literally thousands of different configurations. The wide array of choices however can leave many new to the AR platform perplexed with just where to begin. There are already a number of fine articles and videos out on the internet that cover various aspects of assembling your own AR. Yet, we still get new shooters calling and emailing us confused by the wide variety of options available.

***snip***

In fact, one of the primary reasons for the success of the AR platform is its modularity. With one lower and a handful of uppers or parts, you can go from a short-barreled 9mm carbine to a .22LR plinker to a match grade .223 rifle all in the same day. No matter what type of rifle you need, you can build an AR to accomplish the task. It's like the Swiss Army Knife of rifles. Too many people try to make their AR into a gun that can "do it all" - that's not quite the right way to look at it. The AR can be assembled and configured to perform well in a wide variety of applications, but you can't have it perform well in any role in a single configuration. Decide what you want to do with your AR, and build it to that spec.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MediaPages/ArticleDetail.aspx?mediaid=938



AR 15 Upper Conversions .22, 9mm, .45, 300, .458, .50
So one day you go to your local gun store or ammo supplier to pick up some .223, but they're out. No biggie except its starting to seem like there's almost never any .223 around. The reason is .223 is always the first ammo to disappear from store shelves during a time of change. Well there an easy way to get your shooting fix & still use your favorite rifle.

The answer is to change or convert your existing AR 15 upper into a different caliber. This can be easily done & undone in seconds. All you have to do is drop the magazine, ensure no rounds are in the chamber, push both take down pins, & replace with a new upper. Here are some of the different calibers that can be added:
http://gunsnpigs.blogspot.com/2012/05/ar-15-upper-conversions-22-9-458-762-50.html


Less than a month after the tragic school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary school which occurred on December 14, 2012 Dianne Feinstein introduced her idea for a new assault weapons ban. Had she not done so I feel that it is quite possible that the chances for the passage of Machin-Toomey would have been significantly higher. Machin-Toomey failed in the Senate on April 17, 2013.

Mopar151

(10,068 posts)
185. With you 1000%
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 10:00 PM
Dec 2013

And there is venison in my freezer. But if the "good guys" in the gun business don't do something about the losers in their sport/hobby/thing you fuck around with, people like me will eveturally lose paitence. 'Cuz the slob hunters, gun fondlers, and backyard blasters are more than a little much, never mind the total imbeciles that leave loaded guns out, for whoever to find.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
53. New gun control plan:
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 12:00 AM
Dec 2013

Start handing out free guns to African-Americans and Latinos.

Lovely individuals like Mr. Vanderboegh (Check out his SPLC profile!) will suddenly like gun control.

 

firsttimer

(324 posts)
67. I really hate when this type of racist rhetoric is used
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:16 AM
Dec 2013

I know that wasn't your intention but it suggests that Blacks and Latinos
are some how all criminals.

So the right will want more control .

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
68. Mr. Vanderboegh believes they are criminals.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:19 AM
Dec 2013

That's why he has his guns - to fight of the hordes of minorities out to steal his stuff and hurt him and his family.

Again, this guy has a rather long history of public racism.

 

firsttimer

(324 posts)
72. I don't know who he is
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:29 AM
Dec 2013

And I know I have heard what you posted many times before
by people in the media , advocates for more gun control , on MSNBC , CNN etc..

I think it's offensive to Blacks and Latinos and it's done by the person without realizing it.

Because the person saying it I know for a fact is not a racist.

Maybe I'm just the minority on this.

I don't know

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
81. I think he is stating a fact. If the bigoted white wing folks arming up thought minotities were
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:54 AM
Dec 2013

doing the same, they'd be all over the NRA and Congress to pass gun control (or perhaps they just buy more gunz and push for expanded stand your ground laws). The Tbag racist gun fanciers would go nutz. The white wingers are arming up because they fear minorities, even unarmed ones like Trayvon Martin. The only offense minorities should take relates to these bigoted yahoos arming up out of hatred and fear.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
187. He's the guy in this story.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 10:27 PM
Dec 2013

His SPLC profile has been linked multiple times in this thread.

Look, the last big wave of gun control that succeeded was in part a racist reaction to radical African-American groups in the 1960s walking around with guns.

The racist douchebags would line up behind gun control again if "those people" started heavily arming themselves.

Cha

(300,214 posts)
87. Yeah yeah.. Agressive bullies and then when
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:17 AM
Dec 2013

called out.. they start whining like "poor me" victims.

Paladin

(28,469 posts)
165. How about dragging yourself into present-day reality?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 05:13 PM
Dec 2013

After the Gabby Giffords shooting, after the Sandy Hook school massacre, sending a politician a high-cap magazine can reasonably be characterized as a terroristic threat. You're doing your very best to make it seem otherwise, but it's not working.
 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
166. It could be... But it isn't...
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 05:33 PM
Dec 2013

Some politicians and some regular folk would be thrilled to receive a nice new PMAG.

Little suckers got expensive...

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
153. Does "tweak" mean threaten with violence?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:13 PM
Dec 2013

Yup! That's what he did. Just like he advocated bricks though windows of political opponents.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
161. Like I said..... "Veiled threat of violence."
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:22 PM
Dec 2013

Are you defending this a-hole's actions, hack89?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
167. No - just pointing out he got the reaction he wanted
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 07:23 PM
Dec 2013

That's all. I personally think that fringe radicals on both sides of the issue are crowding out any chance of reasonable legislation.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
170. Left, actually
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:05 PM
Dec 2013

I have no patience for fringe idiots on either side. I do not support what he did - it serves no useful purpose.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
172. If he had send an actual bullet I would say yes
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:11 PM
Dec 2013

I see his actions more as an attempt to make people like you publically say and do things that help paint anti-gunners in a bad light. The NRA depends on people like you to fire up their base.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
174. It doesn't take "people like me" to make the NRA crazies.... look crazy!
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:48 PM
Dec 2013

It's NRA folks that try to defend the actions of crazy psychos within their ranks ....... that makes them look crazy!

"He didn't send him an actual bullet." Riiiiiiight!

hack89

(39,171 posts)
175. You play an important part
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:55 PM
Dec 2013

No where does it say those magazines were loaded - we know they were unloaded because the laws governing mailing ammo are strict as hell. The governors would have had him arrested if there were live rounds.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
178. Stop lying
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:17 PM
Dec 2013

I said twice that I disapprove of what he did. I was merely correcting your implication that he sent actual ammo.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
180. No such implication was mad by me.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:25 PM
Dec 2013

And do you think you can call folks "liars" without backing that up?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
182. Your posts back me up
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:27 PM
Dec 2013

Did I not say I did not support what he did? How is that supporting what he did? That is your lie I was pointing out.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
179. "laws governing mailing ammo are strict as hell." You're joking...... aren't you?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:21 PM
Dec 2013

Seriously! Aren't you joking?

You better check into UPS shipping regs!

"UPS accepts for transportation such ammunition as constitutes "cartridges, small arms," as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59. All other allowable ammunition shipments are accepted only on a contractual basis, and must be prepared under the rules for a fully regulated hazardous material. Ammunition cannot be shipped where it exceeds 12.7 mm (50 caliber or 0.5 inch) for rifles or handguns or 8 gauge for shotguns.

The shipper must comply with and must ensure that each shipment containing ammunition complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package, including, without limitation, age restrictions."



hack89

(39,171 posts)
181. Glossing over "all federal, state and local laws"?
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:25 PM
Dec 2013

Do you know that the USPS forbids ALL ammo shipments?

So - what proof do you have that the magazines were loaded?

 

firsttimer

(324 posts)
199. "Now maybe the article is wrong."
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:34 PM
Dec 2013

Highly unlikely the media would get anything wrong when talking about guns.
I'm sure they research everything thoroughly before talking about assault weapons , high cap magazines and such.

Dawson Leery

(19,348 posts)
164. This cheap hit at Malloy will get him few more votes next year.
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:57 PM
Dec 2013

The "sovereign citizens" (terrorists) need to understand this is New England, not the boonies.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
176. Hopefully, Vanderboegh receives a "do not get out of jail free card" as a "thank-you"!
Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:06 PM
Dec 2013

Veiled threats of violence to elected officials can bring you troubles.

 

LibertyAdvocate

(3 posts)
219. Magazine is not ammunition. :-)
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:08 PM
Dec 2013

"...said he sent forbidden ammunition to the governors of Connecticut, Colorado and Maryland, the New Haven Register reported Thursday."

Apparently, gun bigotry and ignorance of basic gun-related facts go hand in hand.

A "magazine" holds ammunition.

If you're going to attack our culture and rights, at least know what you are talking about, please.

William769

(55,582 posts)
220. Welcome to DU.
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 03:12 PM
Dec 2013

Just a little friendly advice being a "newbie", if your going to quote don't take it out of context. The whole article is explained by ammunition & magazine.

I am retired Law Enforcement Officer and I had no problem understanding what was written.

Again, welcome to DU.

RandySF

(62,589 posts)
221. Oh, bullshit.
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 03:13 PM
Dec 2013

The guy sent a magazine to the governor of CT near the first anniversary of Newtown. If attacking this asshole is bigoted, then so be it. He's a known right wing supremacist who wants to sends your precious firearms to minorities so they can kill each other. But maybe you didn't read that part before your knee-jerk reaction kicked in. With the way you nuts get worked up over every criticism of your hobby, it sure looks like you people know you're in the wrong.

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