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Me on porn. (Original Post) RandySF Nov 2013 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Agschmid Nov 2013 #1
Would I know you if i saw you? Callmecrazy Nov 2013 #2
. Dash87 Nov 2013 #3
lol nt arely staircase Nov 2013 #72
Is that also how you feel about kiddie porn? dawg Nov 2013 #4
Kids are harmed in kiddie porn and there are laws that prevent children from penultimate Nov 2013 #7
You gave an intelligent, well thought-out answer. I disagree with you ... dawg Nov 2013 #8
Well, you better get out your ban-hammer then. LAGC Nov 2013 #10
But do people try to get off to anime? dawg Nov 2013 #12
yeah, its s question that you probuably wont want answered. loli phabay Nov 2013 #14
If you're looking for a fair or reasoned legal precient for limiting freedom, marijuana prohibition Kurska Nov 2013 #19
I disagree with laws limiting what adults can do penultimate Nov 2013 #39
Kids can't consent and simulated anything should be illegal, no matter how disgusting it is n/t Kurska Nov 2013 #18
I'm sorry. RandySF Nov 2013 #46
I don't think hardly anyone who regularly posts on this board would want to ban porn. dawg Nov 2013 #49
What about where two obviously adult men in their 40s are having sex MNBrewer Nov 2013 #50
I think you lost your point at ... dawg Nov 2013 #52
I don't know how the law makes that distinction. It's a depiction of underage sex, is it not? MNBrewer Nov 2013 #55
If the character played by the 40 year-old had been consistently depicted as being underage ... dawg Nov 2013 #56
better question would be, would you ban all porn and whats the cutoff point between porn loli phabay Nov 2013 #5
There is no cutoff between porn and art. Porn is art. nt rrneck Nov 2013 #9
i would agree, everyone has their own taste in art kinda like music or food. loli phabay Nov 2013 #16
I'm pro-choice. JaneyVee Nov 2013 #6
How about if you are in a relationship with someone who likes it page of coins Nov 2013 #11
kinda like sports or chinese foods. its something couples work out. loli phabay Nov 2013 #15
Then it should be only an occasional thing that the porn-liking partner ... dawg Nov 2013 #21
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #36
Just as with gambling, it ruins some people's lives. dawg Nov 2013 #51
That's something you have to work out, then. RandySF Nov 2013 #47
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #54
Agreed. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #13
Yeah. Just like guns, gambling, prostitution, drugs. No one thinks any of those ... dawg Nov 2013 #17
Don't use the word regulated, when what you mean is banned. Kurska Nov 2013 #20
I would never be in favor of a blanket ban on porn. dawg Nov 2013 #22
You're free to to not like it all day, all night and everyday ending in y. Kurska Nov 2013 #24
I wouldn't jail anyone unless there was "actual" rape, statutory or otherwise. dawg Nov 2013 #26
That is a good sentiment, but I don't know how it is workable in a constitutional sense Kurska Nov 2013 #28
I support making it illegal to "produce" or "distribute". dawg Nov 2013 #34
You're still encountering the freedom of speech problem. Kurska Nov 2013 #37
I'm not adjusting my opinion; I'm just explaining it better. dawg Nov 2013 #42
Citing precedents I disagree with probably won't win me over to your side. Kurska Nov 2013 #43
Determining what is or isn't porn ... dawg Nov 2013 #48
Well see, you need to determine what is or isn't porn. Kurska Nov 2013 #53
So you want to fill our prisons with people consenting adults who fuck in front of cameras? Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #61
Read all my other posts in this thread and you'll have your answer. dawg Nov 2013 #63
How would you regulate porn? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #23
I'd be okay with banning rape porn or porn purporting to depict sex with minors. dawg Nov 2013 #25
Heavy fines? Kurska Nov 2013 #27
No fine at all for consumption. dawg Nov 2013 #30
I can say one thing Kurska Nov 2013 #35
Thankfully, that's unconstitutional LittleBlue Nov 2013 #32
We can't stop meth either. dawg Nov 2013 #38
How do you define what is or isn't porn? Kurska Nov 2013 #40
Legitimate writers depicting rape as part of a story should ... dawg Nov 2013 #44
There is a well established legal precedent forbidding differential treatment of different artistic Kurska Nov 2013 #45
Since you don't like simulated rape porn, don't watch it. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #58
And if you don't like assault rifles, don't buy one. dawg Nov 2013 #59
Assault rifles kill. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #67
Rifles, by themselves, can't kill anyone. dawg Nov 2013 #68
This isn't about assault rifles. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #69
Adults choose to buy assault rifles. dawg Nov 2013 #70
Good thing the government doesn't think the same way you or Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #74
Yeah, good thing. dawg Nov 2013 #76
Good thing those all involve consenting adults. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #78
So we can't even discuss the things that bother us? Even if we say explicitly - as dawg has on this nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #81
on this i agree, both sides should discuss it, but realistically its not going to make a difference loli phabay Nov 2013 #82
Consume willingly as adults, arguably, but xulamaude Nov 2013 #79
Generally speaking, I don't think minors should be exposed to hard-core porn nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #85
I don't see absolutism RainDog Nov 2013 #93
Well, it's good that we at least all agree ... dawg Nov 2013 #94
It was astonishing to me to read lies about this position RainDog Dec 2013 #96
It's astonishing to me that so many people are willing to write ... dawg Dec 2013 #97
LOL RainDog Dec 2013 #98
But you support the rape porn and simulated kiddie porn right? dawg Dec 2013 #99
IF YOU DON'T OPPOSE POT SMOKING YOU SUPPORT CANNIBALISM!!! Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #60
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......... dawg Nov 2013 #62
It's the other other white meat. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #73
What of the arguments that it is harmful to society generally? Deep13 Nov 2013 #29
People have been arguing that certain kinds of fiction are harmful to society for centuries. Kurska Nov 2013 #33
Well, talking of illegality is putting the cart before the horse. Deep13 Dec 2013 #95
let me paraphrase the general reaction BainsBane Nov 2013 #65
But it can be argued... egduj Nov 2013 #31
Except it can't be argued very well with any scientific evidence. Kurska Nov 2013 #41
Yeah, but you can prove anything with facts NoOneMan Nov 2013 #77
K&R #5 Egalitarian Thug Nov 2013 #57
Is that also your view on Fox? BainsBane Nov 2013 #64
If you don't like criticism of porn,don't read or listen to it. athenasatanjesus Nov 2013 #66
Not that simple. duffyduff Nov 2013 #71
And what if those adult, consenting women don't see using their bodies polly7 Nov 2013 #75
So, you believe that football should be banned Yavin4 Nov 2013 #80
" Former porn stars fare a lot better in old age than do former NFL players." xulamaude Nov 2013 #83
Um, have you seen the many media reports about traumatic brain injuries Yavin4 Nov 2013 #84
"The average porn star fares a lot better in old age than does the average NFL player." xulamaude Nov 2013 #86
There are several stats on the health of former NFL players Yavin4 Nov 2013 #87
Former porn stars' "health in old age is not an issue." xulamaude Nov 2013 #90
Also, why is there soooo much concern for people using their bodies in porn Yavin4 Nov 2013 #88
good points, there are lots of careers where people risk their health in all sorts of ways. loli phabay Nov 2013 #89
"little or no concern about workers in other industries whose bodies get exploited" xulamaude Nov 2013 #91
We haven't seen 12(?) threads recently about coal worker's being exploited Kurska Dec 2013 #100
No, but there have hundreds xulamaude Dec 2013 #103
Yet, count up the number about sex workers vs. other specific workers in the past few weeks. Kurska Dec 2013 #104
Exactly - link the last few weeks to years and years xulamaude Dec 2013 #105
I know you're apparently new here, but we've had weeks of "porn wars" pretty much every year on DU. Kurska Dec 2013 #106
DU can be read by anyone with an internet connection xulamaude Dec 2013 #107
Oh I'm sure you're very familiar with DU, I bet you know a lot about the people here. Kurska Dec 2013 #108
Okay, I'm wrong and you're right. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #110
Wow this must be the first time I ever won an argument on the interwebs Kurska Dec 2013 #111
I have a feeling.. Upton Nov 2013 #92
"It's a convenient vehicle for them to use however.." Kurska Dec 2013 #101
Asking you to think of something is banning? BainsBane Dec 2013 #112
Oh, thank goodness, thought you had a youtube link of Rex Dec 2013 #102
gmta Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #109

Response to RandySF (Original post)

dawg

(10,632 posts)
4. Is that also how you feel about kiddie porn?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 11:23 AM
Nov 2013

What about "simulated" kiddie porn, where the actress is 18 but appears 12 and is portrayed in the plot of the story as being 12?

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
7. Kids are harmed in kiddie porn and there are laws that prevent children from
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 12:07 PM
Nov 2013

being subjected to such abuses even if it isn't being filmed or photographed. Therefore I don't see how you can compare the two.

As for simulated kiddie porn. That's a tough one, much like the simulated rape. But I personally think so long as all parties are of age and consenting, there isn't much that can or should be done about it. We may not understand it or think it's healthy, but it is adults taking part in it. I was talking to this girl on the dating website okcupid once, and she started talking about this strange daddy/"little" fetish thing she has. She sent me links to her tumblr page, and it just kinda freaked me out enough to get me to distance myself. But that's what she's into and seems to enjoy. Should we prevent her and her significant others from taking part in such things? If so, what right do we have? Should we only prevent it if it's being filmed and shared? If so, what gives us that right? The same goes for "rape" fantasy porn too. I find it hard to see what right any of us have to force our personal preferences on to others. Of course that all goes out the window if none of it is consensual. Which is why actual child porn is not acceptable.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
8. You gave an intelligent, well thought-out answer. I disagree with you ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 01:56 PM
Nov 2013

but respect you for clearly stating and defending your opinion.

We live in a society that does not allow adults to make their own decisions about marijuana use. It doesn't allow legal adults (18 year-olds) to purchase beer. Clearly, as a society, we have taken the position that we have the right to regulate and limit the sort of products that can be produced and distributed.

Personally, I don't have a problem with porn in general. But I am very concerned about porn that attempts to depict rape or pedophilia.

LAGC

(5,330 posts)
10. Well, you better get out your ban-hammer then.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 02:26 PM
Nov 2013

Because there's an awful lot of Japanese anime that falls in those categories.

Just sayin'...

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
19. If you're looking for a fair or reasoned legal precient for limiting freedom, marijuana prohibition
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:32 PM
Nov 2013

ain't it.

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
39. I disagree with laws limiting what adults can do
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:02 PM
Nov 2013

I personally do not drink nor do I do any drugs (not even pot), but I do not think that laws should limit adults from partaking in such activities. Only when they directly affect other non-willing participants should laws be made to stop that. For example, people shouldn't be allowed to drive under the influence, because that adversely affects people. The same can even be said for smokers and second hand smoke in public enclosed locations. That affects other non-consensual people.

I think there is room to say that drugs, alcohol, porn, simulated rape porn, simulated violence have negative indirect affects on some people in some situations, or even society as a whole. But that's difficult to prove or pinpoint, in fact, I'm sure we can say that about anything though. There are plenty of studies out there that discuss the negative affects on society that eating meat has too.

Fake rape and kiddy porn is weird and I wouldn't want anything anything to do with the people who are into that. I would not trust them, because, in my opinion, 'normal' people don't get off on rape and kiddy porn. But again, if it's something consensual adults are filming in the privacy of their homes or studios, I just can't find a logical reason to deny them that right just because of my personal opinion. This might be a bit ridiculous, but let's say someone has a very realistic looking fake sheep (or a human in a sheep costume), should it be illegal for them to use it as a sex toy and sell videos of it?

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
18. Kids can't consent and simulated anything should be illegal, no matter how disgusting it is n/t
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:30 PM
Nov 2013

dawg

(10,632 posts)
49. I don't think hardly anyone who regularly posts on this board would want to ban porn.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:22 PM
Nov 2013

But there have been big discussions lately over "rape" porn and porn that simulates sex with minors. I think those are very nuanced issues that go beyond the "If you don't like it, don't watch it" bumpersticker mentality.

That being said, for most forms of porn I absolutely agree with you.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
50. What about where two obviously adult men in their 40s are having sex
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:25 PM
Nov 2013

and the banter goes "Oh yes, daddy, fuck your little son in the ass"? It's a simulated scenario of kiddie porn. Should it be punished as though minors were harmed in its making?

dawg

(10,632 posts)
52. I think you lost your point at ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:29 PM
Nov 2013

"obviously adult men in their 40s". No, of course I don't think such a movie should be banned. On the other hand, if it were an 18 year-old playing a 15 year-old character, that's another thing altogether.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
55. I don't know how the law makes that distinction. It's a depiction of underage sex, is it not?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:46 PM
Nov 2013

It's legal if the "kid" looks 45.
It's legal if the "kid" looks 35.
It's legal if the "kid" looks 25?
What about 24?
22?
21?
What IS the difference in looks between a boyish 21 year old and manly 17 year old?

What evidence would a prosecutor need to bring the case to trial?

dawg

(10,632 posts)
56. If the character played by the 40 year-old had been consistently depicted as being underage ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:52 PM
Nov 2013

then I think he would have evidence to bring the case to trial if he really wanted to do so. He would then be laughed out of court due to the fact that the actor was obviously a middle-aged man.

To me, if you want to make an explicit movie with a very young looking 18 or 19 year old man .... fine. But don't depict his character as being underage.

I don't have any problem at all with porn that depicts consensual sex between two adults. (Or three, or four ...)

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
5. better question would be, would you ban all porn and whats the cutoff point between porn
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 11:48 AM
Nov 2013

And art. Now to your post, i agree with you.

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
15. kinda like sports or chinese foods. its something couples work out.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:11 PM
Nov 2013

Only issue is if its hidden or lied about.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
21. Then it should be only an occasional thing that the porn-liking partner ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:35 PM
Nov 2013

indulges in whenever the porn-hating partner is not around. The porn-loving partner should be mindful of her significant other's feelings, and should always be vigilant to make sure her porn use does not become detrimental to her real relationship.

And the porn-hating partner should respect his partner's different sensibilities so long as they don't prove detrimental to the relationship. He should even try to find common ground with her, softcore erotica maybe.

Couples must respect each other's differences, but together is better than separate IMHO.

Response to dawg (Reply #21)

dawg

(10,632 posts)
51. Just as with gambling, it ruins some people's lives.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:25 PM
Nov 2013

Most people can handle it just fine, and I'm sure there are millions of couples whose lives have been greatly enhanced by pornography.

I would never advocate for a general ban on porn.

But, just as with gambling and alcohol, there are dangers. And I think that we liberals are too quick to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that those dangers don't exist.

Response to RandySF (Reply #47)

dawg

(10,632 posts)
17. Yeah. Just like guns, gambling, prostitution, drugs. No one thinks any of those ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:27 PM
Nov 2013

should be regulated either. Right?

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
20. Don't use the word regulated, when what you mean is banned.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:34 PM
Nov 2013

All four of those things should be regulated, but an adult should have a default right to access any four of them if they so wish.

I don't get how repeatedly citing some of the dumbest banning decision our society has ever made in reference to the thing you want banned, is strengthening your argument.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
22. I would never be in favor of a blanket ban on porn.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:36 PM
Nov 2013

I just don't like people getting off to simulated rape or pedophilia. Especially when it's marketed as "real".

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
24. You're free to to not like it all day, all night and everyday ending in y.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:40 PM
Nov 2013

That doesn't mean that we should start throwing people in jail for FICTION. It is fictional, it isn't real. If you want to talk to about a ban on marketing it as a real, now there is somewhere where I think we can find a little common ground. However, pointing a camera at a legal and consenting act, even if it is simulating something horrible, shouldn't get people thrown in jail.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
26. I wouldn't jail anyone unless there was "actual" rape, statutory or otherwise.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:47 PM
Nov 2013

But I would take away any possible profit motive for producing or distributing rape porn or simulated kiddie porn.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
28. That is a good sentiment, but I don't know how it is workable in a constitutional sense
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:51 PM
Nov 2013

If something is legal to produce and consume, doesn't it also have to be legal to sell? I can't think of any item that you can make and freely distribute, but are not allowed to sell.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
34. I support making it illegal to "produce" or "distribute".
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:54 PM
Nov 2013

We do this with drugs, games of chance, some firearms. We should probably do it for cigarettes and the KFC double-down as well.

Hell, didn't NYC just ban Big Gulps?

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
37. You're still encountering the freedom of speech problem.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:58 PM
Nov 2013

It is fictional material. Americans currently have a absolute right to write and then film any fictional material using fictional character they want. Once you decide that is no longer the case, I'm not sure I am comfortable with where society is going. Remove the profit motive? Fine, but people have a right to freedom of speech.

You at least seem to be adjusting your position, which I do appreciate.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
42. I'm not adjusting my opinion; I'm just explaining it better.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:06 PM
Nov 2013

Free speech has never been a blanket protection that covered any and all forms of communication. For instance, try acting out one of those movies in the park next summer - see how far your free speech rights carry you.

Likewise, how many jurisdictions in the country would allow such a story, with actual graphic sex, to be performed onstage as a play? Sure, there are plenty of places where it would be legal. But there are plenty of places where it would be banned also. The precedents are there for regulating this sort of thing. It's just a matter of what standards we, as a society, are willing to enforce.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
43. Citing precedents I disagree with probably won't win me over to your side.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:09 PM
Nov 2013

Laws against public sexual performance have been used to disproportionately against gay people and other vulnerable sexual minorities for decades. That have even been used to crush depictions of gay life that aren't even very sexual.

I'm very curious how you'll respond to my question about determining what is or isn't porn. It is down thread.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
48. Determining what is or isn't porn ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:16 PM
Nov 2013

I don't care about that because I don't want to ban porn. Whether or not something is porn isn't really an issue with me. But ...

If they did ban porn (a move I would fight), and I was somehow forced to be the guy who decided what was porn and what was not, and I was not allowed to let almost everything slide (which would be my natural inclination), I think this would be my measuring stick ...

If the main purpose of the film is to tell a story, then it isn't porn. If the main purpose of the film is to arouse and titillate, then it's porn.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
53. Well see, you need to determine what is or isn't porn.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:29 PM
Nov 2013

Because if you want to make the inclusion of rape into porn illegal, you need an ironclad way of determining what is or is not porn. Why? It is simple, without one you'd also be banning the examination of rape by fiction for all other literary works. If you want to ban something just for porn you need to identify what porn is.

And let me tell you, millions of very smart people have been trying to do that for decades and the best they can come up with is "I know it when I see it". If you're comfortable with judges deciding what does or not does not have artistic merit and who should be punished for producing the wrong kind of fiction, than you're a very different person than I.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
61. So you want to fill our prisons with people consenting adults who fuck in front of cameras?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:42 PM
Nov 2013

Good point about the drug war. It's working out GREAT.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
63. Read all my other posts in this thread and you'll have your answer.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:46 PM
Nov 2013

Hint: I don't support throwing *anyone* into jail over rape porn or simulated kiddie porn.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
25. I'd be okay with banning rape porn or porn purporting to depict sex with minors.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:45 PM
Nov 2013

I wouldn't be okay with throwing anyone into jail over it, but I would levy harsh enough fines to discourage anyone with a profit motive from producing or distributing it.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
27. Heavy fines?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:49 PM
Nov 2013

So if you're a super rich guy, you can consume all the rape porn you want, but if you're a poor person and your underage son downloads a video on your computer your are screwed with a capital S.

Don't pretend you're being lenient to people for consuming fiction you do not like, just because you aren't throwing them in jail. Most people value their livelihood as much as their freedom.

How bout we NOT massively fine people for consuming fictional material, would that possibly work?

dawg

(10,632 posts)
30. No fine at all for consumption.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:52 PM
Nov 2013

I would fine those who produce and distribute. This isn't something I'm comfortable letting the invisible hand of the market determine.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
35. I can say one thing
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:56 PM
Nov 2013

At least your heart is in the right place and you're willing to make compromises about it.

I'd have to see the specific law (and whether it would be ruled constitutional is another matter entirely), but there are far worse arrangements than the one you have proposed.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
32. Thankfully, that's unconstitutional
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:53 PM
Nov 2013

In fact I'd be willing to bet the majority of that sort of porn is already produced in foreign countries. The efforts you speak of are already rendered ineffective by the nature of the internet.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
38. We can't stop meth either.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:59 PM
Nov 2013

But I think we should try.

Admittedly, porn isn't a major issue with me. I only jumped on this thread because I see the same ridiculous absolutism on this issue that I see with the gun debate. Just because I don't think you need a 40 round magazine doesn't mean I want to grab all your guns. Likewise, just because I don't think rape porn or simulated kiddie porn should be legal, doesn't mean I want to ban all porn.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
40. How do you define what is or isn't porn?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:03 PM
Nov 2013

Alright, so lets say you have banned simulated rape in porn. Alright, now anyone who has rape in their work of fiction has to be very worried that that work of fiction will be determined to be porn. Who is going to decide what is or isn't porn? A porn producer could throw in 20 minutes of fluff story into the video and then sell it. A legitimate writer might want to address the topic of rape in a realistic and vivid way. There is no objective standard for differentiating between the two. The only way to do it would be how we did it in the past, drag the person in front of the judge and have him decide if the it has "artistic merit". Of course, in the good ole days such laws were used disproportionately to punish gay people and unpopular sexual minorities or artists unpopular with the powers that be.

I find the idea of a small group of elite individuals deciding what represents legitimate artistic output in our society far more offensive than the most disgusting consensual act between adults. Especially considering there are many well documented cases of such elite groups of judges abusing their power throughout history to crush unpopular speech.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
44. Legitimate writers depicting rape as part of a story should ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:09 PM
Nov 2013

probably refrain from having the actors perform actual penetrative sex on film if they want to feel safe from my wrath.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
45. There is a well established legal precedent forbidding differential treatment of different artistic
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:12 PM
Nov 2013

mediums.

If you can do it in book you have to be able to do it in a video game or do it on film (provided it is simulated, but the others are simulations too if you really think about it).

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
58. Since you don't like simulated rape porn, don't watch it.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:11 PM
Nov 2013

Thankfully adults are free to do what they choose. If two consenting adults consent to doing simulated rape porn, I'm glad they have that choice to do it.

Don't like it, don't do it. Don't like it, don't watch it.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
59. And if you don't like assault rifles, don't buy one.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:39 PM
Nov 2013

It's really simple when you think about things that way, isn't it?

dawg

(10,632 posts)
68. Rifles, by themselves, can't kill anyone.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:57 PM
Nov 2013

Now it's true that someone could choose to act out some horrible fantasy using their rifle, but that's hardly the rifle's fault, is it?

Edited to clarify: Actually, I favor reasonable restrictions on guns, including bans on high-capacity magazines. But the so-called logic of, "don't like it; then don't buy it" could be improperly applied to the gun issue as well as to hundreds of other situations where common sense limits and regulations would make more sense.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
70. Adults choose to buy assault rifles.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 06:06 PM
Nov 2013

Shooting them is fun. They look cool. I don't have one. That's not my thing, but I have friends who love them.

I think they should be restricted, personally. I don't give a damn that my friends have been safe with their assault rifles so far. I believe that common sense limits should be put in place for the benefit of society.

Same goes for rape porn and simulated kiddie porn. I don't *know* that viewing those images makes it more likely that such fantasies will be acted upon, but I think reasonable, common sense restrictions are called for - just like with guns, and just like with *some* drugs.

FWIW, I'm not anti-porn, I just think there should be limits.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
74. Good thing the government doesn't think the same way you or
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:30 PM
Nov 2013

Rick Santorum do.

I suppose you believe that playing violent video games leads to violent behavior as well.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
76. Yeah, good thing.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:16 PM
Nov 2013

Otherwise, there might be no rape porn or simulated kiddie porn. And that would be a sad, sad world that no one would want to live in.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
78. Good thing those all involve consenting adults.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:34 PM
Nov 2013

And good thing we have laws against kiddie porn and rape.

Your argument is meaningless.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
81. So we can't even discuss the things that bother us? Even if we say explicitly - as dawg has on this
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:55 PM
Nov 2013

thread - that we're not interested in throwing anyone in jail?

For the record, I did rec this OP, because in most cases I agree with the sentiment. But criticism of the porn industry has to be considered just as much a free speech issue as porn itself.

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
82. on this i agree, both sides should discuss it, but realistically its not going to make a difference
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:01 PM
Nov 2013

In the end. I think a big problem is also both sides talk about different things sometimes and the extreme viewpoint from both sides takes over and it turns into a poo flinging endevour, which though is some fetish its not mine.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
79. Consume willingly as adults, arguably, but
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:46 PM
Nov 2013

What about those who are exposed to it against their will? Do you think that there are/could be associated harms?

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
85. Generally speaking, I don't think minors should be exposed to hard-core porn
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:11 PM
Nov 2013

any more than the law should allow them to purchase cigarettes or alcohol, which it doesn't. But just as many kids will inevitably get an older sibling or classmate to buy them some smokes, or a six-pack, I can't see age restrictions on porn consumption being anywhere near universally effective.

But even still, we can and should discuss the issue of who's watching what, and how it may be affecting them.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
93. I don't see absolutism
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 11:33 PM
Nov 2013

People here are in general agreement that non-consensual sex acts are not okay for porn. (The disagreement is over what constitutes consent, or whether adult females are capable of consent - and that argument is made by some who call themselves feminist.. that women are incapable of making a choice to participate in porn.)

People here are in general agreement that criminal activities should be prosecuted (again, actual rape and anything involving minors.)

People here are in general agreement that adult material should be limited to adult consumption - i.e. they support age limits on who may purchase porn. Kids can access porn without purchasing it, however, so those who want to keep this away from their children have to take responsibility for filters on their home computing devices - and they have to accept that, if a teenager is determined, she or he will find a way to view these things, but will also know they are doing so outside of parental approval.)

As far as fictional depictions of things that are illegal in fact - banning such things is not, imo, advisable because such depictions are not created just for consumption of those who would choose to do those things, and sometimes those things are done within works that have artistic merit and not to condone them.

So, the issue is not really about banning assault rifles vs. no restrictions at all on porn. The issue is about regulation of porn, with some consumption illegal based upon content or the age of the consumer.

The reality is that, according to statements here, the vast, vast majority of people on DU are agreement about the way in which porn should be handled in our society.

The disagreement is whether or not someone should condemn porn, in and of itself, or condemn those who consume it, or those who don't think the consumers care what another person thinks and that person is protected by free speech conventions in this nation.

So, since both sides of the issue are in general agreement about regulation of porn, how is one side engaged in absolutism to argue that porn is not anyone else's business but those who create and/or consume it?

This seems to be another one of those straw men arguments put forth to allow someone to argue with a position that is not in evidence here.

Why would anyone choose to misrepresent the issue?

This misrepresentation is what leads others to think the anti-porn posters are not arguing honestly.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
94. Well, it's good that we at least all agree ...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 11:49 PM
Nov 2013

that depictions of actual rape and child molestation should be banned.

And on the gun control issue, we all agree that shooting an innocent person to death should be a crime as well.

Do you know any gun enthusiasts who argue that they should be allowed to shoot anyone they want? I don't.

Does that mean that they don't have absolutist opinions after all?

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
96. It was astonishing to me to read lies about this position
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 12:20 AM
Dec 2013

here on DU. It was disgusting or baffling to see so many people here claim that others were in support of actual rape depictions. But I wasn't surprised because I've seen this same tactic, over and over by a few. Maybe it's not a tactic, tho. Maybe it's a lack of reading comprehension and I am assuming more competency by those who do it than they deserve.

Or maybe the point was that they were being absolutists who could not distinguish between fact and fiction. Actually, I don't know that that would be described as absolutist. I think it's children, more likely, who don't distinguish between fact and fiction until they reach a particular point in mental maturation.

After that point, I think the failure to distinguish between fact and fiction has another name, if such a situation is constantly a problem.

As far as your statement about guns relative to absolutist positions on porn, I don't see that you've made an effective comparison.

On other threads on this topic I have also read and noted myself that people here, overall, who have spoken about this topic on this forum also spoke about the need to have regulations regarding porn - regulation of the industry to insure safety for participants, worker protections - this is the general view held about this issue on DU, in spite of certain people here who seem to have a dedication to misrepresent the same.

dawg

(10,632 posts)
97. It's astonishing to me that so many people are willing to write ...
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 12:23 AM
Dec 2013

long-winded diatribes in defense of rape porn and simulated kiddie porn.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
98. LOL
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 12:24 AM
Dec 2013

buh bye!

edit to add in case this demonstration of my point is deleted or alerted upon and disappeared.

dawg (6,114 posts)
97. It's astonishing to me that so many people are willing to write ...

long-winded diatribes in defense of rape porn and simulated kiddie porn.


dawg

(10,632 posts)
99. But you support the rape porn and simulated kiddie porn right?
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 12:47 AM
Dec 2013

Or am I missing something?

Edited to add: I would never intend to imply that you supported depictions of actual rape or actual child abuse. Your post very clearly indicated that you do not. And for that matter, I don't remember seeing anyone on this board take such a position.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
29. What of the arguments that it is harmful to society generally?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:52 PM
Nov 2013

There's the argument that it conditions young men to view women as mere entertainment, and that it pressures young women to see themselves that way.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
33. People have been arguing that certain kinds of fiction are harmful to society for centuries.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:54 PM
Nov 2013

Ultimately they've always been wrong and outlawing it never makes the stuff go away in the first place, it just drives it underground. I'd rather have porn legal and regulated so that I can now all the workers are being treated fairly.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
95. Well, talking of illegality is putting the cart before the horse.
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 12:06 AM
Dec 2013

First, we would have to ascertain if it is actually harmful. If it is, then we would have to determine what, if anything, the response should be. That could be legal restrictions or it could just be a PSA campaign.

Yes, it is an argument that is often made. Frankly, it may be true often. And even if it is untrue for fiction, violent movies, or video games, it still may or may not be true of apparently violent porn.

egduj

(807 posts)
31. But it can be argued...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:53 PM
Nov 2013

Thar the effect porn has on the people who choose to watch it, has a sort of "second-hand" effect on those who choose not to participate in porn watching. As in a higher rate of sexual assault, molestation, and a general degradation on the view of women in a sexual aspect.

Just as in someone's choice to own a gun starts to affect other people who don't choose to own a gun, when that gun owner gets depressed and heads to the closest school. Or when the person who chooses to use drugs decides to get in his car and joins other people on the freeway who don't choose to do drugs.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
41. Except it can't be argued very well with any scientific evidence.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:06 PM
Nov 2013

Porn consumption has exploded in the past 30 years, meanwhile sexual assaults are down by I think over 50%. If there was a casual link between porn consumption and rape, we'd see that in the numbers, but we don't.

Meanwhile, the societies with the most rape per per person tend to have bans on porn. Clearly, porn is not the major thing driving the phenomenon of sexual assaults.

BainsBane

(53,178 posts)
64. Is that also your view on Fox?
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 05:48 PM
Nov 2013

Or that if people don't like Walmart they just shouldn't shop there and not bother people about telling others what's wrong with the place? How about banks and Wall Street?

polly7

(20,582 posts)
75. And what if those adult, consenting women don't see using their bodies
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:14 PM
Nov 2013

in film and profiting from it as being exploited? It seems being pro-choice for some lasts only until women do something they don't approve of.

I'm 1000% for preventing violence against women, and would hope that anyone advocating for these women to lose the opportunity to do as they please, are also concentrating on actually doing something constructive for those that obviously are being abused and mistreated ... such as working to provide safe havens for them, education and other employment opportunity, being diligent in reporting possible illegal acts, etc. etc. There are so many ways to help. Guilt shaming those who do enjoy being in the profession and those who may watch it may make one feel better, but what real good it's doing is beyond me.



Yavin4

(35,526 posts)
80. So, you believe that football should be banned
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:54 PM
Nov 2013

As well as boxing and MMA fighting. Former porn stars fare a lot better in old age than do former NFL players.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
83. " Former porn stars fare a lot better in old age than do former NFL players."
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:05 PM
Nov 2013

How so?

ETA - and if so, in which ways

Yavin4

(35,526 posts)
84. Um, have you seen the many media reports about traumatic brain injuries
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:08 PM
Nov 2013

that former NFL players are suffering from? There was a huge settlement with the NFL about it. Some former players have even killed themselves because of it.

The average porn star fares a lot better in old age than does the average NFL player.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
86. "The average porn star fares a lot better in old age than does the average NFL player."
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:29 PM
Nov 2013

Is that so?

Are there as many stats on the health and well-being of the average former porn star as on former NFL players?

ETA - computer crash. apologies for the duplicate
ETA.2 - not a dupe at all

Yavin4

(35,526 posts)
87. There are several stats on the health of former NFL players
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:00 PM
Nov 2013

and they are not good. There are little stats on the health of former porn stars, but that's because their health in old age is not an issue.

Yavin4

(35,526 posts)
88. Also, why is there soooo much concern for people using their bodies in porn
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:04 PM
Nov 2013

but little or no concern about workers in other industries whose bodies get exploited. I mentioned the NFL, boxing, and MMA, but there's also coal mining, the military, police work, fire fighting, etc.

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
89. good points, there are lots of careers where people risk their health in all sorts of ways.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:07 PM
Nov 2013

There is also the fact that so much porn nowadays is changing to the amateur web cam interactive stuff. Especially at the more fringe and fetish end.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
91. "little or no concern about workers in other industries whose bodies get exploited"
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:13 PM
Nov 2013

Right. Nobody cares about the rights of workers around here...

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
100. We haven't seen 12(?) threads recently about coal worker's being exploited
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:04 AM
Dec 2013

For some reason a person running their body into the ground to provide a living for their family isn't exploitative enough to care, but a woman having sex on a camera is so exploitative is doesn't even matter if she enjoys it, she is still be exploited.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
103. No, but there have hundreds
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:15 AM
Dec 2013

(nay, thousands) of threads all over DU for years and years condemning the treatment and conditions that every sort of worker - other than sex-workers - must endure.

Please.

ETA - maybe it's just time for this

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
104. Yet, count up the number about sex workers vs. other specific workers in the past few weeks.
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:18 AM
Dec 2013

Apparently sex worker conditions must be so intolerably worse than every working condition on the planet they deserve such special emphasis.

Or people are using the conditions of sex workers to drive their other purely ideological complaints about pornography.

Nah that couldn't be.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
105. Exactly - link the last few weeks to years and years
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:21 AM
Dec 2013

of threads. As I said, maybe it's just time to talk about this for a minute.

Or a couple of weeks out of years and years.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
106. I know you're apparently new here, but we've had weeks of "porn wars" pretty much every year on DU.
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:26 AM
Dec 2013

The number of threads dedicated to the plight of porn workers far outstrips any other profession on the planet.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
107. DU can be read by anyone with an internet connection
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:32 AM
Dec 2013

for years and years.

I beg to differ with your assessment.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
108. Oh I'm sure you're very familiar with DU, I bet you know a lot about the people here.
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:35 AM
Dec 2013

You're wrong though, there is a pretty standard blowup about this every single year. This one has been particularly fierce though, but it always happens.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
111. Wow this must be the first time I ever won an argument on the interwebs
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:44 AM
Dec 2013

I'm going to print out this entire exchange and get my mother to put it on the fridge, if that is cool with you.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
92. I have a feeling..
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:20 PM
Nov 2013

it's because the anti porn crusaders have a lot more going on than just concern about the exploitation of sex workers. It's a convenient vehicle for them to use however..

BainsBane

(53,178 posts)
112. Asking you to think of something is banning?
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 02:48 AM
Dec 2013

Somehow I don't think it's the porn that is in danger.

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