This message was self-deleted by its author

[Arcanetrance]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Arcanetrance) on Wed Nov 27, 2013, 01:46 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[renie408]

1. Oh, what woman doesn't get excited about being called a cum loving whore?

As long as she is consenting to having objects shoved into her anus while being called a slut and a bitch, how could any First Amendment loving liberal have a problem with that?

[Major Nikon]

33. Because those who are civl libertarians see the bigger picture

You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger pro-choice advocate than myself. In fact, I don't even call myself pro-choice. I am pro-abortion. Do I ever plan on having an abortion? I doubt it. I posted in the vaping thread condemning those banning efforts despite not doing it or having any desire to do it. The same goes for drugs, sugary drinks, and all sorts of other things people want to ban based on half-fast abstract moral arguments of the greater good. I have no use for porn, but my position on these subjects is pretty consistent. Anything else reeks of the doublethink.

Why would some woman(or man for that matter) want to do something like that? I have no idea nor do I care. But it's not my place to tell them they can't when the evidence for impact to anyone else who isn't consenting is virtually non-existent.

And for those who think this is teh menz vs teh womyns position, I will remind them that there's no shortage of feminists, and damn smart ones at that making these same arguments just as passionately.

If you want an authoritative answer to your question, you should read what this First Amendment loving liberal has to say about it...

"To suppress free speech in the name of protecting women is dangerous and wrong."
-- Betty Friedan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Friedan

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

[renie408]

38. Yeah...we are going to agree to disagree on this one.

[KittyWampus]

94. We stand up for Walmart workers who "consent" to crappy jobs, crappy wages and

crappy work conditions.

But we can't do the same for women?

I am staying out of porn bickering for the most part.

But I sincerely doubt many of those who "consent" are enthusiastic about what they are consenting to or the money they get for doing it.

[renie408]

101. Ok.

[renie408]

110. Do you shop there?

Because Walmart is a shitty place to work, I do not shop there. I don't defend shopping there by saying that the desperate employees took their shifty jobs with their eyes wide open.

[jeff47]

148. Why only the women?

Porn isn't terribly good for the men either.

First, the "gaping" the OP complained about is not something only women in porn do.

Second, even in "straight" porn, the men are damaging their bodies by abusing Viagra.

We stand up for Wal-Mart workers by trying to get those crappy jobs to be less crappy. Are you calling for us to try and make jobs in porn less crappy, or are you saying we need to eliminate porn? Or eliminate certain kinds of porn?

[Kurska]

303. Why does no one ever respond to this question?

It is like the other side of the debate pretends it doesn't even exist.

Straight men engage in some odd stuff in porn, gay men do pretty much all the "nasty" stuff that people say women shouldn't be subjected to.

Yet whenever you ask why these people are only talking about women, when guys also do this stuff.

Crickets, nothing but cricket.

[Major Nikon]

191. Sure you can, and you should

That's not the same as suppression. Suppression means you are telling someone else they can't do it regardless of how much they are paid or what the working conditions are.

[BainsBane]

208. "regardless" is hypothetical

Either someone cares about workers rights or he doesn't. If someone pretends to care about workers rights but suddenly evokes the "choice" argument about porn work, there is an ideological disconnect.

It appears to me your continual use of "suppression" is evading the issues people are concerned about. The poster who mentioned the First Amendment didn't argue for suppression. She asked how people could justify it.

As I have repeated many times, some porn is made with slave labor. It is not a trivial matter or an insignificant amount of porn. Continually evoking the First Amendment and ignoring the other rights at stake, such as workers rights or the right to be free from bondage, is to focus exclusively on the rights of consumers--overwhelmingly male--over the rights of porn workers, free or coerced--overwhelmingly female.

No right is absolute. The exist in relation to each other. To posit an imaginary porn universe where workers are treated well as a justification for all extreme porn is an unsound argument.
Now if someone made a point of consuming porn only from licensed and regulated companies, that would be a step forward. When I have made that suggestion, however, it has been rebuked. The focus for most remains entirely on the wants and liberty of the porn consumer.

[Major Nikon]

211. Gonna call bullshit

I was a union member and steward for over 20 years. If you wanna accuse me of not supporting workers rights, I'm quite sure you're barking up the wrong tree. How much time have you spent on the picket line?

[BainsBane]

219. My point is that your concern should not stop at the picket line

It should extend to porn workers as well, if you are to be ideologically consistent. What I am focusing on is this very disconnect.

[Major Nikon]

230. It does and is no different than any other worker, but nice try

[BainsBane]

240. They why do you continue to evoke choice?

There is nothing straw like about my point.

[Major Nikon]

247. Tap...Tap....Tap....Is this thing on?

Believe it or not those two things are not mutually exclusive. Claiming I'm not for worker's rights and then proceeding to argue on that basis is the epitome of strawman. In fact it's even more ridiculous because you couldn't be more wrong, not that it matters because even if you weren't the very best you'd have is still strawman gibberish. Do you understand what strawman rhetoric is and why it's bullshit? It's not as if you don't employ that strategy on a daily basis and others haven't explained it to you. At some point one has to believe it's intentional, or at least hope so. The best you can say about any of it is it's a worthless red herring distraction that doesn't come within a cab ride of the central point, but if you want to start a separate thread about worker's rights, please do so and send me the link. I'll be happy to discuss it. I have quite a bit of knowledge in the area and I'd wager considerably more than you so you might learn a thing or two. I can let you know exactly how it relates to sex workers and what the opportunities and rights are under the law. However, somehow I don't think you really care about anything other than the red herring opportunity it presents so I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.

A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man&quot , and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues. In those cases the false victory is often loudly or conspicuously celebrated.

(emphasis mine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_(rhetoric)

[BainsBane]

245. It is increasingly clear that the new definition of straw

is any idea that someone is uncomfortable with. I pointed out a clear contradiction in your logic.

[Major Nikon]

248. ...

[BainsBane]

255. An opinion supported by the evidence in this subthread

I've also noticed you get snarky when you don't know how to respond to a point.

[Major Nikon]

260. OK, so it's true

I don't know shit from beans about worker's rights and could give a shit less about any worker.

There! You got me!

Congratulations. Here's your prize:

[BainsBane]

262. I did not say that

I pointed out an ideological inconsistency in a concern for workers rights that does not extending to porn laborers. I pointed out an inconsistency in invoking choice in an argument about porn, when the free choice porn workers exert is no different from that of retail workers who choose to take jobs requiring them to work on Thanksgiving. Both choose to take that work, but their choices are constrained by the marketplace. In some cases, porn workers do not choose because they are enslaved.

Repeating insults doesn't change the fact you are evading the issue. Rather, it only highlights it.

[xulamaude]

252. And I agreed. nt

[xulamaude]

223. How many hours (approximately) have you spent on a picket line

and for which industry or industries if I may ask?

[Major Nikon]

231. Welcome to DU

I post anonymously and am protective of my personal details. The question was rhetorical

[xulamaude]

239. Okay and thanks for the welcome

I dig you're not wanting to be too personal about your identity (doxxing is a worrisome phenomenon, no?) but you did say that you were a steward so I was mostly just curious about which industry mostly - generally speaking, like: automotive or retail or whatever.

You did ask BB how many hours she's spent on a picket line so, you know...

Anyway if you'd prefer not to answer that's fine by me.

[BainsBane]

257. Did he? It must have been after a bunch of snark so I tuned it out

Most of the jobs I've had haven't had an option of being unionized. I was a Teamster for a couple of years but we never went on strike. I was a member of the TA union in grad school, but how do grad students strike? So no, I've never been on strike. I've done a good deal of protesting on Iraq, Central America, gay rights, etc...

[BainsBane]

210. Additionally, the same choice exercised by free-wage porn laborers

is the same by retail employees who work on Thanksgiving.

[nomorenomore08]

222. +1

Exactly. Low-paying and/or unpleasant jobs are more similar to each other than they are different.

[JustAnotherGen]

227. That's a really good point!

[BainsBane]

205. Exactly

[seabeyond]

108. One might see the bigger issue being women, human beings, world wide

[renie408]

116. Oh quit with your trying to take away a woman's right to make bad decisions.

I know that if my daughter got involved in the porn industry I would respect her right to make a bad decision. She is 18 after all.

[seabeyond]

125. ya. no, wouldnt happen. nt

[Major Nikon]

140. What makes you think feminists who make the exact same arguments aren't?

[BainsBane]

147. How does civil libertarianism negate the rights of others to say they find

something disturbing? It seems to me that your "bigger picture" is exceedingly narrow. It focuses entirely on what porn consumers want and denies even the most basic right to free speech who anyone who objects to anything about that industry. In essence: your rights mean the rest of us have none.

[Major Nikon]

189. The answer is the same for anyone who finds homosexuality disturbing

If you don't like it, don't participate. I'm not saying you can't object. Stand on a streetcorner with a bullhorn and talk till you are blue in the face if you like. But if you want to talk suppression, then you're talking about something else entirely. You don't get to suppress something just because it's not your cup of tea.

[BainsBane]

195. Arcanetrance isn't talking about suppression

The only talk about banning that I'm aware of was in the context of the UK law. My position is the same as those advocating for folks not to shop on Thanksgiving day. Demand drives production, so I try to spend my money in socially responsible ways wherever possible.

[Major Nikon]

202. I didn't reply to that poster

I've never been against boycotting. I boycott it myself, but for different reasons.

There's been plenty of talk about suppression, including the poster I did reply to who was complaining about those who use the First Amendment to counter ban arguments.

[whathehell]

162. Consider another side of that "bigger picture", and ask yourself how you'd feel about material

that, for instance, illustrated illustrated the "joys" of lynching, or the gassing of jews with the appropriate slurs as commentary.

This is HATE SPEECH and since a woman is beaten every 15 seconds in this country, I'd suggest it's anti-social

and dangerous.

Our quality of life and Fourth Amendment rights as citizens to be treated EQUALLY are more important than the "right"

of pornographers to sell hate porn to misogynists.

[LittleBlue]

168. Well done, that's easily the most specious argument of this entire debate

Use the 4th Amendment to negate the 1st Amendment.

Not only is that illogical, I get the impression you haven't even read the 4th Amendment.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

Did a pornographer search your house without a warrant?

[whathehell]

291. No, dear, I just confused my amendments for a moment..I meant the Fourteenth.

and if you still think the argument specious, you need to acquaint yourself with the court arguments already made.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1994/mar/03/pornography-an-exchange/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Only_Words_(book)

[Major Nikon]

184. I'm not going to get into red herring arguments

Analogies are useful for describing things that can't be described otherwise. This is not the case here. The hazard to analogies is they never fullly replicate the issue at hand without introducing red herring fallacies. If you can't debate the issue directly without conflating other things, you probably never had much of an argument to begin with. Furthermore you are making a lot of assumptions that I don't accept, so I'm certainly not going to get into your analogy and get roped into a "have you stopped beating your wife?" loaded question. And no I'm not going to explain what I don't accept about it because I'm just not playing that game today.

Not biting here.

[whathehell]

287. No, a "red herring" would only exist if the situations were non analogous..

but they are, and you know it.

We're back to the unavoidable, If unspoken truth: That it's okay to oppress women as a class, but not others

or, as Nation writer Katha Pollitt put it: "Misogyny is the last acceptable bigotry of the Left"

I think you might have saved yourself the long paragraph by simply admitting it.

[Tikki]

212. Stand your ground…by definition is free….something.

No foul , No harm….


Tikki

[Major Nikon]

213. The man in the wilderness

The man in the wilderness asked of me,
How many strawberries grew in the sea?
I answered him as I thought good,
As many as red herrings grew in the wood.
-- Mother Goose

Just sayin'

[Tikki]

216. Stand Your ground…

I see your mother goose and raise you a...

"..I've seen the needle and the damage done…a little part of it in everyone"…Neil Young


Tikki

[Major Nikon]

233. Which is simply more of the same

Just sayin'

[duffyduff]

263. It's a human rights issue, not a phony baloney "civil liberties" issue.

That's what people like you can't understand and never will understand.

This is not "consent" when financial and other pressures force people to "work" in porn and in prostitution.

This is NOT "free speech."

[Democracyinkind]

2. I've consumed porn for years, and have never, not once, come upon so called rape or violent porn.

Maybe, though, I'm just ignorant... I've never had an interest in "pro" porn - movies produced for commercial markets. But I find it hard to believe.

[Arcanetrance]

5. So if you find it hard to believe obviously it must not be than is that what your saying

[Democracyinkind]

10. What I'm saying is, it can't be that prevalent if it never crossed my eyes.

Of course, at this point it becomes an empirical question, which must be settled by science, and not by anecdotes. I wouldn't know if there are any such studies, though. (As an academic myself, I would hope not...)

[nomorenomore08]

224. I suppose if you're careful and/or selective enough you might avoid the worst material.

Doesn't mean it's not out there, and in no small amount at that. I stay away from anything violent or abusive myself - I find it a turn-off to say the least - but I still come across ads for sites that look absolutely appalling.

[gollygee]

6. Then google it

The whole discussion started with a UK law that prosecutes companies that film what they claim to be actual rapes, with "this is an actual rape" actually written on the DVD packaging. People think that prosecuting that is wrong.

I certainly HOPE it is rare porn that very few people would be interested in. Who would seek out video footage of someone getting raped, and then find that sexually gratifying? Nobody has a right to that for fuck's sake. No one's rights are being trampled upon by not allowing that sick shit.

[Gravitycollapse]

13. I truly do not believe you. Right now you can go to any popular site...

And what is commonly referred to as forced porn is everywhere. If you consume porn you have seen this probably every time you visit a site.

[Democracyinkind]

20. Maybe you missed the part where I said that commercial porn doesn't excite me.

Maybe it's just that I find the whole concept of rape porn so outlandish that I'm having a hard time believing it. Many people in this thread are saying the same thing, so I guess it is prevalent on popular porn sites. (Which would mean that I only visit unpopular sites...)

[BuddhaGirl]

3. if all involved are consenting adults

then there is no problem.

To each his own. YMMV. etc, etc.

[hfojvt]

85. what if the women are consenting

in the same way I consent to doing my crappy job.

Not because you really want to do it, or enjoy doing it, but because you need a paycheck. So you hold your nose, swallow your bile and do what it seems like you gotta do.

Is THAT consent?

Or is it exploitation?

[Eleanors38]

92. Probably both consent & exploitation, and not a crime.

The best way to fight this is to take specific action against specific parties through boycotts or persuasion. Government action would run straight into the "consent" you reference. Exploitation is a virtual term of art with little use in court proceedings and prosecutions.

What do you think of "fisting?"

[nomorenomore08]

226. All low-paying and/or unpleasant jobs are exploitative in some sense. I have no problem saying that.

Making most of these jobs illegal, however, would be at the least impractical.

[closeupready]

4. I disagree with you. Sex and violence are not equivalent.

Sex at times gets very graphic and simple.

Violence is an element added to some fantasies for some people, but it's never done anything for me.

[Arcanetrance]

9. Sex and violence shouldn't go together

But an industry that makes its money making women into little more than sex toys than uses terms like slut, whore, and bitch is selling sex and violence together as one package

[closeupready]

17. Sorry, I don't see it. Women like sex, too.

I'm not getting how your logic is set up, going from sexualizing females to violence.

[Arcanetrance]

25. Because they've completely removed the human being

It depicts women as objects whose only purpose is to please the male in front of them. With no control of their own bodies beings that don't raise to the level of human so we use derogatory terms like the ones in my last post to describe them. That breeds people in the real world where that's whats expected from women.

[closeupready]

30. I don't see the violence in that, however.

Violence is not mere social interaction; it is behavior that physically harms other people, against their will.

Sexual intercourse, objectively, is no more violence than - for example - physicians drawing blood, or even a game of football.

[Blue_Adept]

145. For you. and that's great.

But others need, want or desire something different.

One past girlfriend of mine really liked being slapped across the face during sex. It was a huge turn-on for her. That was simply how she was wired.

[Niceguy1]

196. I had a partner

that loved dirty talk all the words listed above and then some. It was a turn on for her.

I don't think we should judge people for what turns them on, within legal Bounds

[Blue_Adept]

229. Exactly.

Except now we're seeing more people (here at least) saying these things should not be legal.

[Niceguy1]

246. kind of like

The republicans...sticking their nosr whete it doesn't belong

[Vox Moi]

7. I've been staying out of this too, but all these posts made me think ...

… of war movies.
Almost exclusively the victimization of young men. Their bodies are penetrated and violated too.
Extreme violence, the dehumanization and expandability of men (in particular) … very often involving involuntary servitude.
Very popular entertainment.
Maybe off topic but I thought I'd mention it.

[gollygee]

8. Are people finding those movies sexually gratifying?

And are they claiming to be actual videos of people being killed on camera, available for people's sexual gratification?

[Vox Moi]

22. War is not for sexual gratification but it is entertainment.

Actual war videos of people getting killed are very popular.
The connection is that it's entertainment at the expense of one gender primarily.

I think I might be too far off topic. Does anyone think that war movies belong in a porn discussion?

[Major Nikon]

241. Do you realize that perpetuating the myth that rape is about sex is dangerous and wrong?

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

[dawg]

16. And then there was this movie ...

[Vox Moi]

27. One of the best put downs I've ever seen!

No prob Dawg … your objection is noted.
Next time, please don't hold back.

[dawg]

35. I love that clip.

I also love your willingness to have a sense of humor.

[thucythucy]

97. Post this as an OP and see what happens.

I wonder if you'll get dozens of people objecting to your even raising the topic, accusing you of being a prude, denouncing you for wanting "some sort of grand government censor" etc. etc. Because war movies are just entertainment, is all. No political content or impact whatsoever.

Actually, I think you raise a valid point, which brings up some interesting questions: does the near-continual portrayal of war as noble, exciting, "manly" in any way contribute to constructing a society in which war is more and more seen as a "normal" way to resolve international conflict? In which the vast bulk of discretionary spending goes to the MIC? And does the acceptance of horrific violence in any form as "entertainment" by a society spill over into how that society deals with actual violence?

To me these are rather important questions, similar to the questions I'd like to see raised in any discussion of porn. Of course, that'll never happen, because as soon as someone mentions even the remote possibility that, for instance, rape porn might have an impact beyond simply enabling men to get off--well, next thing you know we'll be on the slippery slope to a right wing nanny state tyranny.

I wonder if the NAACP faced this kind of grief when they called for pickets and boycotts of "Birth of a Nation.'

[get the red out]

11. I'm middle aged

I had no idea stuff was this bad now. I have completely had this porn issue out of sight out of mind. I feel myself about to become a staunch anti-porn advocate at this point. Nothing like this should be legal. Men who want to watch it need a psychiatrist.

[LittleBlue]

12. You are confused about what consent is

Whatever anal sex is happening is consensual.

People aren't looking for your approval of what they find erotic. Don't like it, don't visit the porn site. But rather than saying you don't like it, you incorrectly claim it "strikes me as rape." In fact it's not rape, so you don't need to worry about it.

And regardless, it's legal.

[Arcanetrance]

15. So do you think its outside the realm of possibility to have gotten consent through coercion

[LittleBlue]

23. On the popular tube sites? no

Truth is, there is so much money in porn that no one has to be forced to insert objects into themselves. So many are willing.

If you find a porn that looks like rape, report it to the police like any other crime. Watch those videos and see the various actors and actresses named in the first part of the film, or the name of the company that produced it.

[NYC_SKP]

26. Those who condone these depictions conveniently leave out a few facts.

It's not even about consent, which is a different matter (still important but not at the heart of it, IMO).

What is over the top and unacceptable, and sociopathic, and enabling and something everyone should be ashamed of, are:

The use of these names, slut, whore, bitch, are all the kinds of terms you can imagine a rapist using.

They are demeaning, oppressive, and yet are the common terms used in titles and, I would imagine, in much of the dialogue.

Some of the responses to your post are depressing.

I recommended your OP.

[Union Scribe]

53. "It's not even about consent"

When the OP is labeling something rape then yeah, actually, consent is exactly what it's about.

[NYC_SKP]

88. "...acts that seem to be depicted in those videos strike me as rape."

Perhaps the OP means that the acts depicted seem to resemble acts of rape, and not that the production of them constitute actual acts of rape.

[nomorenomore08]

237. +1

And the difficulty of distinguishing one from the other is also an obvious problem.

[MissMillie]

31. this is what worries me about porn

I'm willing to bet that for every "legitimate" porn manufacturer, there are hundreds that prey upon people (mostly women) who are either uneducated, broke, addicted to drugs or alcohol, etc. I'm betting that in the overwhelming majority of porn production, the actors are completely taken advantage of.

[rrneck]

103. I understand your concern but

porn is so ubiquitous that it would be hard to believe someone could get into it without knowing what they are getting into.

In a time when teenagers are "sexting" and you can Google "two girls and a cup" (but I don't recommend it) porn is hardly a mysterious secret.

[renie408]

32. Or just sheer desperation.

Of course, if you like porn you have to tell yourself that the women involved are consenting freely and without any duress at all. How could you consider yourself a card carrying liberal AND find pornography utilizing desperate women sexually stimulating? Ergo, all the women involved are freely consenting and its all good.

Cause there are so many women who are secure in themselves and their lives who enjoy having 10 or 15 people watching while some guy inserts an object into their anus for the purpose of producing videos for total strangers to jack off to.

I mean, isn't that every little girls dream? Right after doctor and teacher.

[Arcanetrance]

37. Yes sheer desperation as well

[jeff47]

40. So we should make them more desperate?

Let's say we ban porn so that women do not turn to porn out of desperation.

What do you think those women would do? Magically be less desperate? Or turn to even worse alternatives because they're just as desperate, and no longer have that option?

[renie408]

49. Never said that...

I didn't say porn should be illegal. Maybe I just think the men on this PROGGRESSIVE message board shouldn't so glibly hide behind 'the women consent' as if that magically makes porn an uplifting experience for the women involved.

[jeff47]

62. An experience does not have to be uplifting in order to consent to it.

There's lots of people who consent to sending their money to Limbaugh. Doesn't make it uplifting.

Being an adult means you get to make bad choices as well as good choices.

Since the men on this PROGGRESSIVE (sic) message board think women are adults, they get to make bad choices.

Btw, do you think acting in porn is a good decision for men?

[renie408]

81. No

But I think the stigma for men is less.

So, the men on this PROGRESSIVE message board can feel good about jacking off to a woman's bad decisions secure in the knowledge that they are on the side of the angels since they are respecting a woman's right to make those bad decisions.

You get 4.3 for your over all performance int the Mental Gymnastics Olympics. You scored some deductions for the dismount.

[jeff47]

89. So women need to be protected from bad decisions?

So, the men on this PROGRESSIVE message board can feel good about jacking off to a woman's bad decisions secure in the knowledge that they are on the side of the angels since they are respecting a woman's right to make those bad decisions.

Why do you want to take away their ability to make that bad decision? Are they not adults?

And do you realize just how much you're parallelling anti-choice fanatics?

[Eleanors38]

99. The quote you high-lighted is probably the reason for this post.

Only mean "hide" behind consent when it comes to porno, but the women are better paid.

[renie408]

104. No

Why does everybody automatically assume that if you don't think porn is a great career opportunity, you must want legislate against it?

[jeff47]

129. Because that's the route everyone else takes when posting "porn is bad"

Including the OP.

And your insistence that no one can view porn and be liberal also makes it appear you want a political/legal solution instead of a cultural shift. Add to that your theme of "we must protect the women" and it reads like yet another "ban porn!!" post.

[renie408]

206. Well, why didn't you tell me.you wanted to handle both sides of the discussion?

Since you are going to extrapolate entire themes I never mentioned or intended, I could have just saved my fingers.

Where do I say anything about protecting the women? I said that I would think a man who considers himself liberal might take into account the fact that the consent of the women involved in porn might not be a free pass to enjoy themselves with a clear conscience. That is ALL I have said.

I do not think we should legislate morality. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have any. You can form moral, humane judgments and act on them without a law being involved.

[nomorenomore08]

242. Where did the OP explicitly advocate banning *anything*?

I swear people are seeing things that aren't even there.

[thucythucy]

105. I'm assuming then you would oppose

a boycott of Walmart? Since, after all, Walmart employees "choose" to work crappy hours, for crappy pay, and any attempt to "take away their ability to make that bad decision" parallels "anti-choice fanatics."

Turn your question around: do you realize how much your position parallels "right to work" Republicans?

[renie408]

113. Bingo

[jeff47]

124. A boycott and a legal ban are different things.

I'm all for trying to steer porn into being "nicer" by altering consumption habits - boycott the "mean" producers and reward the "nicer" ones with business.

Exactly like a Wal-Mart boycott is supposed to work.

[CTyankee]

181. well, what I see feminists here doing is consciousness raising.

If you don't mind, of course...

[jeff47]

185. Because only women act in porn, right?

Or perhaps those same people so heteronormative they don't realize there's other kinds of porn out there?

[CTyankee]

187. oh, dear, missing the point again...I try so hard...

but sometimes it just doesn't work...what do to?

[closeupready]

19. +1. The logic in the OP's arguments here is lacking in my opinion.

[KittyWampus]

96. Liberals generally understand that sometimes "consent" can be manufactured and coerced.

[LittleBlue]

100. Liberals have brains

and understand that thinly-veiled Rick Santorum talking points are bogus.

[Eleanors38]

107. And such "coercion" must be proven in a court of law.

Another notion generally understood by MOST liberals.

[nomorenomore08]

244. You don't have to prove something in a court of law to decide on it (or against it) for yourself.

And I'm not saying anything about deciding what others can and can't watch. Only choosing for oneself.

[Eleanors38]

296. Good. I hope others make the distinction between...

Unconstitutional censorship and personal choice.

[loli phabay]

298. yup personal choice is what it should come down to, you dont want to be callwd names during sex

Then dont allow it but let others get called, prodded, poked etc etc as is their wish as its teally no ones business.

[Ian David]

14. The titles and the way they refer to women in the titles of porn videos has always bothered me.

Also, their use of words like "tranny" and "shemale."

I was thinking of inventing a web browser plug-in that automatically changes the titles to things that are more respectful. Perhaps even into titles that sound like they're from a Jane Austin novel.

Although it would be better if the porn sites themselves were less demeaning, at least in their titles and descriptions.

And over the past ten years, I've noticed a disturbing trend in mainstream porn to do the kinds of things that used to be limited to fetish and "specialty" porn.

[loli phabay]

299. those words are self descriptors, you see them in the chatrooms every day.

[Vashta Nerada]

18. If it was done between consenting adults, who fricken cares?

[Capt. Obvious]

21. What's the name of this popular site? For research purposes only.

Oh, and good on you for staying out of the porn wars.

[FreakinDJ]

24. From a man's perspective - that's always been a Turn Off

To me too

Certainly don't mind seeing a beautifull woman naked but can do without all the "Beatin Up the Pussy" BS

[penultimate]

28. Not to mention all the oral sex videos. No woman would ever willingly give oral sex.

or be into anything outside missionary sex for the sole purpose of procreation.

[Gravitycollapse]

36. I find it weird how you conflate oral sex with the kind of sex...

Being objected to here. It's not ethically monolithic.

[penultimate]

51. Because some people find oral sex gross and would never do it

some people find anal sex gross and would never do it. Some people find rough sex awkward and would never do it. I had a girlfriend who insisted on some weird stuff that I didn't understand the appeal of... Sometimes we even do things because our partners enjoy it, even if it's not something we really 'get' or like. So long as it's not be forced against someone's will, I don't see why I should be outraged or even try to discourage others. I've seen women create videos of themselves sticking questionable objects in questionable orifices on their own accord, not getting paid for it or being coerced. Why should I concern myself with what she does?

I will say that many of the titles on porn videos can be rather pathetic and poorly written. But those titles are usually written by lonely losers from the internet who probably never had a real relationship in their lives.

[nomorenomore08]

268. I would generally tend to agree, except what we're talking about is more "rough" than "sex"

if you know what I mean. Which is to say, more about pure humiliation and degradation than actual sexual pleasure.

[Eleanors38]

119. Oh! I thought you were referencing the other way around. Wel-l-l now...

I've heard there Are a very few men who are exploited mightily in such a manner, and must endure all the noise, histrionics and flopping about which inevitably results. And be paid less, too! Let's ban these videos as well, and require only verifiable, shameful live depictions.

[TroglodyteScholar]

166. The voice of reason

But you left out the parts about only making "the beast with two backs" when separated by a sheet with a strategically placed hole in it.

Otherwise, you might see each other's shame....

[jeff47]

29. Consenting adults get to do things we don't like.

Be it give piles of cash to Limbaugh and televangelists, or starring in porn we find unappealing.

[Nye Bevan]

34. Serious question: how do you equate "cum loving whore" to "violence"?

Loving cum is certainly not violent. And neither is selling sexual services (i.e. being a whore). So how exactly does the title "cum loving whore" (i.e. a person who chooses to sell sexual services and happens to enjoy the taste of semen) show you that there is a "violent culture around porn"?

[Arcanetrance]

39. Actually selling sexual service has proven to be very violent to the women doing so

As far as what's so violent about the term itself. It takes the human being away and lowers them to something only described as an adjective. In the eyes of those viewing the person is no more only the whore

[LittleBlue]

42. Switching up the discussion, what do you want to do about rape porn?

What about porn with titles that use "cum loving whatever"?

It's all well and good to say you find something detestable, but the interesting part is finding out what you want to be done about it.

[Nye Bevan]

46. What these folks seem to want is an official Government Porn Inspector who views it all,

and decides whether to ban it based upon whether he considers it too weird or freaky. Now it's not an exact science as certain acts might be considered too freaky by some inspectors but not others. But that's the price you pay for deciding to selectively ban movies made by consenting adults.

[thucythucy]

91. What I want is for liberal men

to take the use of sexist language as seriously as they do racist or homophobic or classist or ablest language.

Is that too much to ask?

[Bonobo]

234. Porn Tsar! nt

[Gravitycollapse]

44. Calling a woman a whore is very clearly psychic violence.

[Nye Bevan]

45. Well yes, the term can be an insult. But it can also be a job description.

And it does not necessarily have to be a woman.

[Gravitycollapse]

74. Maybe you should educate yourself on the history of the word.

Because it is a pejorative. If you call a woman a whore, you're extremely out of line.

[LittleBlue]

56. I'll ask you the same question that I asked the OP

Are you merely objecting to porn titles using "whore", or do want something done about it? If so, what?

[Nye Bevan]

64. Perhaps force them to replace the word "whore" with "call girl"?

Or "lady of the night"?

[LittleBlue]

67. Haha, indeed

Think I'll get an answer? Asked that question twice and dead silence.

[xulamaude]

152. Ask politely and for political reasons that people do not use the word

"whore" at all.

It could start right here - leading by example. Perhaps then the porn producers would see that there is less money to be made from liberal/progressive people?

[Agschmid]

154. Umm...

Okay 1984.

[Gravitycollapse]

72. I want people to stop consuming it.

[LittleBlue]

79. You want people to voluntarily stop watching porn?

Obviously most porn watchers won't voluntarily stop watching it.

[Gravitycollapse]

111. No, I want people to stop consuming violent, misogynist porn.

Not all porn.

[nomorenomore08]

270. +1

[Comrade Grumpy]

102. I want unicorns and rainbows.

But no one ever gives them to me.

[Gravitycollapse]

114. Are you finished? It's time for a grown up discussion.

Historical social movements have successfully curbed all sorts of horrible things. Social justice is the answer. And part of that includes educating the lay person on the harms associated with violent, misogynist pornography.

[Agschmid]

159. The lay person?

What's that mean to you exactly?

[Gravitycollapse]

217. Someone who isn't blatantly aware of the violence and misogyny inherent in most porn.

[Agschmid]

218. I think most are aware...

I think many choose to ignore.

What are your thoughts on gay pornography?

[Gravitycollapse]

221. I don't know. What part of gay pornography are you talking about?

[Agschmid]

225. I guess I am curious to know...

Does homosexual porn effect gay male couples in the same way heterosexual porn effects straight couples?

Can gay porn spur the same issues?

[Gravitycollapse]

235. Yes, it absolutely can. Although, despite myself watching a good amount of gay porn...

I've never heard an exchange between two men like "you dirty little faggot queer."

Because that would be the equivalent of calling a woman a "cum guzzling whore" or "piece of shit cunt." Which I have heard before and whore and cunt are commonly used words in pornography.

Actually, it seems the same pejoratives wielded against women in pornography are often wielded against men in gay porn. Bitch, whore and slut are tossed around very often. And, as is the same with straight porn, "daddy complex," incestuous themes are often in gay porn. The need to establish one participant as the dominant force is almost compulsory. But we also have to recognize that the use of these words in gay pornography, even in every day life, is an attempt to lower the status of a male to that of a woman. Kind of in the same way that being called a "girl" as a young boy is an attack upon your masculinity.

Let me put it this way. The worst porn title I've ever read on a mainstream porn site, I could not stomach watching it, was "two bitches caught licking forced to fuck."

Step back for a moment and consider the sheer depravity of such a film. It is a film about two lesbian women being caught by men and then are forced to have sex with the men. In the real world that's called "corrective rape."

I have never, ever seen a piece of gay pornography as disturbing as that. There are many similar themes. But the kind of hatred and violence wielded against women, I have never witnessed in gay porn.

[FreakinDJ]

266. I think your projecting way to much

Its a movie - its "Make Believe"

Step back for a moment and consider the sheer depravity of such a film. It is a film about two lesbian women being caught by men and then are forced to have sex with the men. In the real world that's called "corrective rape."

They know the script before they start. There is a director queuing when the men enter the scene. No one is "forcing" anyone to do any thing.

but ya - it can gross, vile, and borderline deprave, IF your not into that sort of thing

[nomorenomore08]

271. Most likely, yes. But you never know.

There is a not-inconsiderable amount of real rape/torture footage out there, albeit usually not accessible from typical porn sites.

[Agschmid]

158. It's not going to happen.

The internet has brought everything (good and bad) right to our fingertips. You can have any kink and live it out online, and desire and make it happen. Sometimes this ability is used for bad things (say downloading movies) other times it is used for good things say (warning an entire nation about sever weather)... But good or bad that technology seems to be here to stay, and will only grow over time.

[nomorenomore08]

269. Maybe simply get people to think more carefully about the media they consume?

That's all I, for one, really want to see happen here.

[PassingFair]

87. Try whispering that in somebody's ear.

You'll see the violence!

[NCTraveler]

41. I really don't mind saying I think porn should be illegal.

You are correct about doing a search for porn. It is clear what type of porn is driving the industry. I trust that they know their customers, and the images and words they display on their home-pages shows a clear direction towards pain and violence.

I think that all porn or sex trade business, where some form of trade is made for work that requires any type of penetration, should be outlawed. I also think the laws of a state should govern the actions of fetish porn.

[jeff47]

70. Yes, that's worked so well for prostitution

Prostitution has been illegal for a very long time now. Are you under the illusion that making prostitution illegal has actually reduced prostitution? Do you realize that in any city in the US, you can get a whore to your hotel room faster than a pizza?

Why do you think a ban on porn would work when a ban on prostitution has been such an utter failure?

[NCTraveler]

76. 100% solutions rarely exist in the real world.

Doesn't mean we have to accept it. Your argument is seriously flawed. Why do we have a drinking age? Why not eliminate it? Countless teenagers consume alcohol. Why is their a prohibition on crack? Tons of people smoke it. Why is their a law against domestic violence? Thousands of women are abused in the home everyday.

[jeff47]

86. I'm not arguing we should keep those laws.

For drinking, take a look at Europe vs. the US. Our drinking age causes a lot more problems than their lack of drinking age. Similarly, relaxation of the "war on drugs" in other countries seems to be leading to better outcomes and reduced drug abuse.

Why is their a law against domestic violence? Thousands of women are abused in the home everyday.

Because drinking alcohol or smoking crack is something you do to yourself. Assault is something you do to someone else, who did not ask to be assaulted.

[NCTraveler]

109. I do not believe hard crack should be legal.

I do not want the drinking age lowered. Drinking alcohol and smocking crack has a profound effect on society, very little positive. I do not support libertarian solutions.

Smoking crack is not something you do to yourself. The line of scum it takes to get it to the consumer can be long.

[jeff47]

122. That line of scum exists because it's illegal.

Make it legal, and that "line of scum" goes away, replaced with non-scummy manufacturers.

As for drinking age, there's no evidence it helps, and lots of evidence it hurts - Drinking by teenagers, binge drinking, drunk driving and alcoholism are far worse in the countries with a drinking age than countries without, or where it's basically not enforced.

Now those countries do have better mass transit that probably explains a lot of the drunk driving. But the rest of those problems arise because alcohol is a forbidden fruit that only adults get to use. As a result, lots of underage people get a hold of it to prove how adult they are. And crossing that age threshold produces a lot of binge drinking.

[NCTraveler]

128. This is not even close to correct.

"Make it legal, and that "line of scum" goes away, replaced with non-scummy manufacturers."

[jeff47]

132. Well, look at prohibition.

Capone and friends were quite "scummy". Do you think Miller, Jack Daniels, and the host of alcohol manufacturers today are as scummy?

[Glassunion]

43. But I love Gorn

[FirstLight]

47. I have tried to ignore these threads too..

as a victim of spousal rape, brought on by porn addiction. There's even a good chance my youngest child was conceived by rape and porn, for a time that was the only sex we had...

let that one soak in for a minute...

Now there will are those of you who say my ex husband was probably psycho to begin with, and that may be true. but pornography has a specific effect on the brain and does lead to addiction behavior, where the stuff you start out with just doesn't do it anymore and you need a "harder" fix to get off... I watched it happen over the course of a couple years, and I bore the brunt of the results.

It started innocently enough one might think, "let's get kinky together, let's watch this, let's try that..."
THEN it went to another level, he couldn't get off if there wasn't something pornographic going on in the room with us, he wanted ME to wear the strap on (while pregnant, even)
Eventually He *needed* the porn to be more violent, wanted us to try doing an online livecam where you watch someone get off or do what you tell them to do... he even was starting to get into the 'barely legal' stuff...
That was when I just walked away from him and the computer, stopped trying to bring him back to reality, stopped trying to BE the slut he wanted me to be. I had even bleached out my hair after our youngest child was born to please him...ugh

He would lock me out of the bedroom to stay up all night fondling himself in front of the computer...meanwhile I slept on the couch with a toddler and the baby...he barely worked and the rest of the day he was a shadow of self.

When I finally left him, he actually came home as I was packing up the back of my friend's car...he watched me, glaring, until I picked up the computer drive to carry it outside...he blanched. I told him the computer was MINE, as it had been a graduation gift from MY parents, so I was taking it.
After I got settled a day later in my temporary housing, I thought about that look on his face and decided to delve deeper into my own computer's guts. Little did he know I could hack my own hard drive...

The first thing to come up and PLAY was a video of the RAPE of a seven year old girl...it did NOT look staged, though I could only handle the first 15 seconds or so, i was horrified.

I looked deeper and found countless images he had hidden...called the cops and they took the computer as evidence. They wiped the drive and I lost everything else on it...baby pics, writing manuscripts, everything... He received a slap on the wrist - because POSSESSION of CHILD porn in CA is only a MISDEMEANOR!
The DA report said he had almost 200 images and videos - meticulously cataloged by age, act, and genders (boy on girl, girl on girl, boy on boy)...ages ranging from 8 to 16.

For a long time I worried he could have hurt our daughter...but she seems to be unscathed.(no weird actions as she grew up coming from her subconscious) Looks like I got her out just in time - at 2 years old, he had bought her a life size doll for c-mas( actually, insisted on it)...and the psychologists tell me that was the beginning of "grooming" someone for molestation...

I have never shared this story in it's entirety before and the disgust I feel for ALL porn is real. It can become a disease and a dangerous addiction, and the argument about whether the parties are consenting is stupid when we know from reports from those in the biz that it it most often NOT the case.
I am sure there are some who can handle a little T & A from time to time...but rape is rape and even the act or glorification of it is sick and wrong. and anyone who thinks women like it like that needs help.

[Arcanetrance]

58. Wow I'm really sorry those things happened to you it must have taken alot of strength to share that

[xulamaude]

59. Thank you for telling it like it really is

for so many women.

Truly courageous.

[FirstLight]

65. thanks

It will be ten years this January since I left him and it took a few years of therapy to feel "normal" again...

I am glad to be able to share this, especially to be able to tell it without crying or being triggered.

[riderinthestorm]

66. You are so tremendously brave. I hope you have found peace

Thank you so much for sharing your story. Pro-porn advocates need to hear first hand accounts like yours since so many try to dismiss porn's uglier effects.

[FirstLight]

80. well

It's like the experiment we all know so well...the rats who can hit the button and get food or an orgasm...they will starve to death.

...same thing with porn, it effects the limbic system directly and causes the brain to do weird things. It's not about God or prudishness ...it's science.
And a porn addict is just as dangerous as a heroin addict IMO


(thanks for the support, I am much better off now, ten years and lots of therapy later...and yes, I still have a HEALTHY relationship to sex. thank goodness!)

[jeff47]

83. If it was science, then it would be provable.

First your ex had big problems, to put it mildly. And I'm sorry he put you through such hell.

But your thesis that porn caused his insanity has a problem: the vast majority of porn users do not follow your ex's footsteps, or anything approaching those footsteps.

If it's science proving porn causes this, then we'd see a whole lot more rape and child molestation in Utah than any other state - Utah uses WAY more porn than any other state. But that's not the case.

[thucythucy]

121. Considering that rape and incest are so under reported

I'm not sure how you can be so certain Utah doesn't rank up there in instances of rape and incest.

I'd like to see more research on all this as well: objective, fact based, non-biased science, not only on violent porn specifically but on media violence in general and its broader impact, if any.

Given how charged this topic is, and how lucrative these forms of "entertainment" are for some, I doubt this will happen any time soon.

[jeff47]

134. Because under-reported would not be unique to Utah.

So under-reporting should be similar between Utah and say, Kansas. So it should not have an effect on comparing rates of sexual abuse.

I'd like to see more research on all this as well: objective, fact based, non-biased science, not only on violent porn specifically but on media violence in general and its broader impact, if any.

Exactly.

If I had to guess, I'd presume porn is like alcohol. The vast majority are fine with consumption. A minority has problems when they drink. Of that minority, some can get it back under control, and others must avoid it completely.

But that's a guess. I'd far prefer real, long-term studies to show exactly what happens. Then we can make an informed decision. In the absence of that data, we should not act out of assumptions of how it affects people.

[thucythucy]

150. I don't think under reporting is an evenly

distributed phenomenon. In fact, I'm pretty sure it isn't.

In environments where rape and incest survivors are more discouraged from reporting (and I'd hazard an opinion that socially conservative areas might fit that bill) I'd expect under reporting to be more of an issue. And so, to take a mega-example, I'd expect rape to be way more under reported in Saudi Arabia, say, than it is in the US. And I would hazard a further guess, that rape might be more under reported in Utah, for instance, than in Massachusetts. In any case, like I said, I don't think you can simply assume that under reporting is at all evenly distributed by state. Even within a state, I'd bet there are differences, depending on all sorts of factors including existence of rape crisis centers and services, training (and sensitivity) of law enforcement, public outreach, social climate, etc. Not to mention economics, issues of racism and class... Just saying.

Alcohol: There are of course some pretty strict regulations regarding alcohol. Federal and state laws, for instance, not only regulating who can drink, but what sorts of products can be sold. A bar tender selling drinks spiked with wood alcohol would be put out of business pretty damn fast.

Considering the wide range of humanity, I would also expect there to be a wide range of responses to porn, and to various aspects or types of porn.

All I'm asking is that we as progressives begin to take this issue more seriously--and look at it with more nuance--than has seemed possible on DU thus far. Mostly, it seems, it's been flame wars and jokes.

I would hope we could do better than that.

[jeff47]

151. That's why I picked another socially conservative state as an example.

I don't think you can simply assume that under reporting is at all evenly distributed by state. Even within a state, I'd bet there are differences, depending on all sorts of factors including existence of rape crisis centers and services, training (and sensitivity) of law enforcement, public outreach, social climate, etc. Not to mention economics, issues of racism and class... Just saying.

I'm saying it's probably close enough between Utah and other socially conservative states that we would see an effect from Utah's much higher porn consumption, if porn consumption lead directly to sexual abuse. It's not close enough to give us an exact percentage, but it's close enough that we should see a difference caused by porn consumption.

Alcohol: There are of course some pretty strict regulations regarding alcohol. Federal and state laws, for instance, not only regulating who can drink, but what sorts of products can be sold.

And unfortunately, many of those regulations were created based on people's assumptions instead of data. For example, 21 as the drinking age is not a good thing. It leads to far more teenagers drinking and binge drinking, along with all the things that those cause.

All I'm saying we shouldn't start regulating until we understand whether or not the regulation would be good in the long run.

In the meantime, we should probably be working on things we know can help - unionization/organization of the actors, requiring STD testing, requiring more downtime, etc.

[nomorenomore08]

276. The plural of anecdote is not data, true. But that doesn't mean anecdotes are invalid or useless.

Your comparison to alcohol is probably fairly accurate, I would guess based on first-and-second-hand experience. But there's always another side to the story, and another person's experience of the world has just as much validity, at least for them, as yours does for you.

[FirstLight]

281. thanks for saying that...but my story will not matter to those die hard "statistics" people

I have had plenty of people here at DU jump on me for posting experience and even citing research, but because I get emotional or may have some figures wrong they attack and say that everything I meant was invalid.Regardless of the naysayers-
I *still* believe strongly that porn is hurtful to the psyche in MANY cases, even if they don't end up as extreme as mine. It's a dangerous area of the psyche that it triggers and it *does* have the ability to take hold and feed upon itself.

What really sucks is that I went thru the day thinking I wasn't affected by posting this.... and then fell apart at my doctors appointment and bawled about nothing and had a really shitty afternoon/evening... funny how traumas like that can sit so deep in your cells that even if you can't put your finger on it, you get triggered...

[nomorenomore08]

288. It's important that people tell their stories though. No matter how "extreme" their case.

And I' m sorry you're having a rough time of it.

[jeff47]

297. Your story is how we get those statistics

People don't study things randomly. Someone has to see a story like yours, wonder about cause-and-effect, and then study it.

[thucythucy]

90. Thank you for this post.

I have to admire your courage in posting, and your strength as a surviver.

Best wishes.

[dawg]

95. Thanks for posting this.

I'm glad you got away.

[azurnoir]

120. Thank you for posting that and I'm glad you and your daughter got out

and are recovering however that your ex was induced to this by porn is IMO wrong, he is a pedophile period and the kind of porn he sought out was driven by pedophilia not the other way around

Hopefully he is undergoing some sort of treatment because if he's just on the loose he's a danger to anyone with children he forms a relationship with

[Number23]

137. Gut renching and horrifying. Thank you so much for sharing this

I don't have anything that comes even remotely close to what you've experienced. But I know that I've dated men in the past that were always trying to "try" shit that they'd seen in "a movie." I have had to explain to more than one man that the women moaning and groaning and acting as though they like the shit being done to them in those movies are PAID to do that crap. If what they were suggesting didn't sound the slightest bit fun, sexy or enjoyable, as far as I was concerned they had my full permission to go and find one of them gals in the movies to do that stuff to because I wasn't having it.

I do think that pornography has at the very least messed up alot of men's abilities to appreciate a "normal" sexual relationship. Your ex sounds like the extreme but the minor cases I've experienced could fall along the spectrum as well. And the fact that the bastard didn't go to jail the second you sent that computer to the cops makes me sick and furious at the same time.

[Logical]

201. Porn is like alcohol, most handle it fine, some it causes major issues. n-t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

293. Thank you for the courageous post. n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

48. I agree that porn is tasteless and that our repressive culture has made large

numbers of pretty fucking freaky-kinkies, but that doesn't make rape. Rape is not sex, rape is violence.

The current popularity of anal sex, ridiculously over-sized breast implants, and bald pubes are not my cup of tea either, but it's not my business to tell other people what they are allowed to watch or do.

[Schema Thing]

50. I'm curious why you thought all the "anal" sex shown

is relevant to the rest of your point?

I ask, because it almost sounds as if you think that a person receiving anal sex must not be fully on board with what is going on.

Is that what you think?

[Nye Bevan]

52. Surely nobody would do *that* willingly.

Since consent is in question, it should probably be banned. I mean, come on. It's a butt.

[eggplant]

130. you've got to be kidding.

Why, it's a part of the body that has tons of nerve endings! What possible reason could someone have to want to stimulate them?

Don't like it? Don't do it. But don't tell anyone else what is ok and what is not.

[William769]

198. I suggest you read the joy of Gay sex.

And yes it was illegal until 2003.

[Arcanetrance]

54. The anal sex itself isn't what got to me it was the "gaping" and insertion of objects both anally

and vaginally. That really bothered me

[ForgoTheConsequence]

57. I know gay men who are into that.

I'll let them know that you're bothered by their sexual preferences.

[Arcanetrance]

61. Whatever man if that's what you've taken away from this

[Nye Bevan]

63. A perfect illustration of the slippery slope.

Look how quickly we've gone from wanting to ban extreme rape porn to wanting to ban depictions of anal insertions. Because that's well, you know, gross.

[Arcanetrance]

68. Question anywhere in my post did I say anything about wanting a ban or advocating for a ban

or anything to do with a ban of any kind.

[Nye Bevan]

69. That's just the impression I got from your post. But I apologize if I misunderstood.

It seems to me now that you are stating that all porn made by consenting adults should be legal, which I agree with.

[Arcanetrance]

73. I don't want to ban what two adults do in the comfort of their own home

But pornography in my opinion is going in a very violent direction and that does worry me because I do believe there's a link between pornography and people's views toward personal relationships.

[LadyHawkAZ]

123. I keep seeing this sentiment

If you genuinely believe this to be rape as stated in the OP, why wouldn't you be arguing for a ban?

I would, if I thought that.

[eggplant]

157. People have been doing that for thousands of years. At least.

I'm sorry it bothers you. Don't look at it.

Personally, I don't like gory horror movies. They gross me out. So I choose not to watch them, but I don't complain that they exist, nor do I suggest that people who like it are somehow deviant.

[Marrah_G]

165. There are lots of people out there who enjoy that

[ForgoTheConsequence]

55. Didn't you hear? Sodomy is unnatural and against God.

Brought to you by Democrats for Cuccinelli.

[Jesus Malverde]

75. Agree: Whats wrong with anal?

People need to get over their personal hangups. Strange op.

[last1standing]

60. This type of porn disgusts me but I strongly support its legality.

Do you believe this type of porn should be illegal or merely avoided?

[thucythucy]

84. I think, for starters, it should be subject to the same criticism

and analysis that any other "product" would get if it used terms like "slut," "whore," "bitch," "cunt" or whatever else to describe women (and teenage girls) in a description of what's for sale. If a car company produced an ad that said, "Buy this to impress the whores in your life," would you shut down any condemnation of such a term by claiming it as a free speech issue? You wouldn't see it as sexist?

Why should porn be immune to the same censure we--as supposed progressives--would bring to anyone or anything else who uses those terms? It's particularly weird to see so many people defending an industry that does this--as if the manufacturers of porn were somehow great altruists, as opposed to being about as concerned for their workers safety and well-being as your average Walmart executive.

It really does puzzle me: why is it that whenever anyone here raises the idea that this sort of language--let alone the imagery--might be detrimental to the struggle for equal rights for women, it's immediately defended as a free speech issue?

Just to be clear--because I'm sure this will come up, since it always does--I'm opposed to censorship. At the same time, I think any progressive ought to be concerned about how women are so often described and portrayed in porn. Just as I can critique "Birth of a Nation" or "Gone with the Wind" for their racist, reactionary content, I think I and others are entitled to bring up the sexist reactionary messages so often imbedded in so much porn.

You disagree?

[jeff47]

117. Most of the posts attacking porn seem to be calling for a legal ban

would you shut down any condemnation of such a term by claiming it as a free speech issue? You wouldn't see it as sexist?

It's both.

Why should porn be immune to the same censure we--as supposed progressives--would bring to anyone or anything else who uses those terms?

Because the people making the posts are not trying to steer towards "nicer" porn They're trying to ban porn. (And yes, "nicer" porn does actually exist.)

To use a completely non-sexual example, we aren't trying to ban jobs at Wal-Mart. We're trying to make those jobs better.

There's no reason for us to not try and do the same with porn.

[seabeyond]

135. none of the posts attack porn has been about banning. regardless how the discussion is continually

flipped to that from pro porn so they do not have to address the effect porn has on people. that has been what the discussion has been

or, are you talking rape porn, that presents itself as rape, from uk. totally different

[jeff47]

139. There's a certain amount of reading into the posts

But when there's post after post that is essentially "we must protect these women from being exploited", it sounds an awful lot like calling for a ban. Even if no ban is explicitly requested.

To wander back to the Wal-Mart example, people propose specific methods to make those jobs better - higher minimum wage, better and more consistent hours, sick & vacation time, and so on. With porn, people are not making specific proposals to improve the "work environment". That makes it appear they think there is no way to improve the work environment and so a ban is the only logical solution.

Nor is there any acknowledgement that there actually have been some great strides recently - the Internet de-centralizing porn production means a lot better porn (and a lot worse porn) are being made, and the actors are better able to tap into the profits. Companies like Vivid Video aren't able to dictate what porn stars have to take because those stars can set up their own web site very easily.

To sum up, just like we encourage people to "shop local" instead of Wal-Mart, we should be encouraging people to visit "better" porn sites. And support unionization efforts in both situations. And require more STD testing in porn. And require more "downtime" in porn - in addition to the obvious threats to the women's bodies, the men in porn are damaging their bodies with Viagra abuse. And so on.

[seabeyond]

142. "certain amount of reading into the posts" NO. just NO. nt

[jeff47]

146. People are rarely explicit in what they want on message boards.

As a result, there will be some interpretation by readers.

I know you've experienced this, and I know you've "read into" my posts in the past.

[seabeyond]

264. Not really Jeff. I tend to ask. I do not like ASSuming cause I do not like being wrong.

Guessing, I am as likely to be wrong as right, hence, guess

[thucythucy]

138. Some people posting here and elsewhere

might be "trying to ban porn"--not sure how that would even be possible--but I've also seen that quite a few--perhaps the majority--of those posters who raise these concerns also say, up front, "I'm not calling for censorship" or words to that effect. As did I. They're raising questions about the content of porn--some porn anyway--the language and the images used therein--and it's effect on women, both those who work in the industry and those who might suffer collateral effects. In any case, I can only be responsible for my own opinions and posts.

I alluded to how the NAACP picketed showings of"Birth of a Nation" when it was released. Which side would you have been on? The picketers decrying the film's outrageous racism (which, BTW, led to a massive influx of membership into the KKK, and which also, coincidentally? used rape as a teaser for audiences), or those defending the film as "free speech?"

My basic point is: I think it's legitimate to raise questions about porn, as we progressives might raise about any other media product. If a movie contains obvious racist or homophobic content, I'll condemn it. Same with obvious sexist content. If I raise such issues about a movie or even a genre of movies ("snuff" films, "slasher flicks&quot , I wouldn't expect people on a supposedly progressive website to instantly respond with "So you want to ban all Hollywood movies?" or "those people consented to making a racist, homophobic film, so what's your problem?" I suppose it might happen, but I'd be surprised.

I don't see why porn should be any different. And yet there is this visceral reaction to any attempt even to raise these issues, a reaction that I find rather troubling.

Anyway, I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

[jeff47]

144. It's both.

I alluded to how the NAACP picketed showings of"Birth of a Nation" when it was released. Which side would you have been on? The picketers decrying the film's outrageous racism (which, BTW, led to a massive influx of membership into the KKK, and which also, coincidentally? used rape as a teaser for audiences), or those defending the film as "free speech?"

It's both.

The movie should not have been 'forbidden', and the NAACP (and all the rest of us) should picket.

If a movie contains obvious racist or homophobic content, I'll condemn it. Same with obvious sexist content. If I raise such issues about a movie or even a genre of movies ("snuff" films, "slasher flicks&quot , I wouldn't expect people on a supposedly progressive website to instantly respond with "So you want to ban all Hollywood movies?" or "those people consented to making a racist, homophobic film, so what's your problem?" I suppose it might happen, but I'd be surprised.

The difference, IMO, is the lumping together.

You're separating 'mainstream' films into fairly narrow categories. But porn is lumped into a single block. "Porn" includes things that aren't abusive at all to things that are horrifically abusive. Discussing it as a single category removes nuance. Without that nuance, there are not options like steering people to "better" porn.

Anyway, I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't think our opinions are that far apart.

[last1standing]

133. Can't I condemn the terms but still defend them as free speech?

The right to free speech isn't only guaranteed for ideas and words we agree with. It is essential for a progressive society to protect the very words that offend us most. Otherwise, the 1st amendment guarantees nothing. I don't use the words mentioned and I speak up when others use them around me. It is absolutely a positive that society censure certain words and ideas in the community sense (i.e. Westborough Baptist Church, Nazis, KKK), yet it would be a negative if we were to censure words and ideas via government action (i.e. McCarthy hearings, sedition act).

Yet based on the last paragraph of your post, I don't think we disagree at all. I'm not sure why we're arguing.

[historylovr]

71. Careful, or someone will come along and say you're anti-sex.

I mean, anyone can see those are terms of endearment and oh, so empowering. What a sty this place has become.

[Xithras]

77. The most popular porn video site on the web is XHamster

Not by their own claims, but per Alexa (a general website rating system). Overall, XHamster is the 43rd most popular site on the entire Internet, coming in only a couple of slots lower than Paypal and Apple.Com, and just ahead of Craigslist.

Their homepage currently shows 43 videos overall. Of these 43, THREE have titles involving anal sex (anal sex is offensive?), THREE have titles that some might find offensive (chick, bitch), and TWO display clearly consensual BDSM. Most of the other 35 have titles that aren't even particularly explicit, and the majority display fairly conventional single, couple, and group sexual acts between straight, gay, and lesbian people of all gender identities.

While you can pick any porn site on the Internet to prove a point, I've objectively picked the largest and most popular porn video site on the web. There are niches for everything, but if you look at what's actually POPULAR, the material is a bit more conventional.


XVideos, the second most popular porn site on the Internet, a few slots down and with about 350 million visitors a month, showed similar results. 36 videos on the home page, 4 involve anal sex, three have titles that some might find offensive, and two involve BDSM. I could run down the list of all the popular porn sites, but the numbers are fairly consistent until you get into the niche sites.

Most porn is not violent.

[Arcanetrance]

78. Well I went to xvideos the second video on the first row is entitle

Russsian incest 1, brother rape sister under it they say it has a porn quality of 100% so I'm sorry if you don't find that a tad violent sounding

[Xithras]

82. Indeed. That was one of the two I cited.

Two videos out of 36 isn't a majority. And it should be made clear that it was the only ONE out of the 36 that displayed anything akin to "rape porn". The other is a "more conventional" bondage video.

There is violent porn out there because there are people who are into that sort of thing, but it's a small part of the overall porn market.

[nomorenomore08]

277. I suppose to a certain extent, you'll always find what you're looking for.

Which is one reason I tend not to look at this issue in a black-and-white fashion.

[polly7]

127. I just went to that site and

there are literally hundreds! of videos ... I watched the first few seconds of about ten, and every one of them showed people obviously (over)acting out sex and kinky sex.

Not my cup of tea, but I've seen waaay more realistic depictions of sexual violence (sans most of the actual nudity), in many, many popular movies over the years.

[closeupready]

93. Anyone else here remember The Hite Report?

It was a 1976 survey, and huge bestseller, about women's sexuality.

As I recall, many questioned her methodology, but her findings were rather groundbreaking in showing that women (like men) have all kinds of sexual ideas and fantasies, some involving BDSM, violence, and rape (and no, not simply as victim, but as perpetrator, too). She was attacked by some for being anti-feminist, I guess on the basis that her frank questions were somewhat too clinical...?

Anyway, I think there are many anti-porn voices on this board who demonstrate sexual ignorance in the sorts of twisted logic employed whenever sex or porn are discussed on this board. I am not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, but I do think it's naive to assume you'll get an informative or enlightening discussion here about these matters.

[lillypaddle]

98. Just what we need around here

another porn thread.

[Eleanors38]

131. Yeah, when we could all be talking about Zimmy some more!

[quinnox]

106. Whatever, people are into weird stuff and you can't do anything about it really

You can complain, but that is about it, the only way to stop it would be to ban or censor it, and that is very unlikely to happen in the United States.

[zazen]

112. not only female-hating but viciously racist, anti-semitic language too

In addition to plantation and even, yes, holocaust porn (Dworkin said it was rampant in Israel), there are the constant vicious stereotyping portrayals of African American women as animalistic (with a lot all-fours sort of presentation), Latina women as having larger sexual appetites than WASP-Y types), Asian women as passive and submissive (the famous Penthouse issue of Asian women hanging from trees was found the month after its issuance in the home of a monster who abducted, raped and hanged a little Asian girl in Chapel Hill), and Jewish women as being tortured by Nazi concentration camp guards.

I'm not going to repeat the language.

Because people's orgasms get conditioned to this, this racism gets rationalized as "natural."

[Arcanetrance]

115. Very true on the racist aspects I've never heard of holocaust porn that sounds disgusting on another

level I don't think I can wrap my mind around.

[eggplant]

169. Fine, so don't watch it.

There is porn that depicts degradation of men as well as women. Gay porn, straight porn, interracial porn (heavens! where's my fainting couch?).

Porn with people in animal costumes. Transvestite porn. Butch porn. Food porn. Spanking porn. Solo porn. giant orgies of porn. Porn where some of the people don't even have sex.

The arguments you are making are the exact arguments that people have made for centuries about content they found offensive. And not even because they depicted sex. Can you imagine the outrage of photos of interracial couples, fully clothed, just sitting together? Women with dresses above their ankles? Teenagers in bikinis?

[Arcanetrance]

172. Do you think the dehumanization of anyone male or female is an okay thing

Furthermore holocaust porn or any porn of racist intent is disgusting and yes it should fucking be banned mass murder of people isn't a subject that should lend itself to pornographic parody.

[eggplant]

176. Wow.

So how would you define "acceptable" porn then? Where is the line?

[Arcanetrance]

178. I'm done man I'm done if you're willing to tell me that pornography depicting racist intent is okay

there's really nothing more I can say

[eggplant]

182. There is a ton of non-porn that depicts racist intent.

That it is porn is irrelevant.

[Arcanetrance]

186. But there is porn degrading women because of their race and that is quite relevant and wrong

[eggplant]

192. Um, no.

Bigotry and hatred cannot be legislated away. People can think what they want. And they can create works of fiction about what they want. And they can share that work with others of like minds. That's the price of living in a civilized society. People get to think what they want. Even you!

You just don't get to be the one who decides what is ok and what is not.

[LittleBlue]

238. No, it shouldn't be banned

I'm sorry, but yes we should be allowed to depict dehumanization in media. And that includes porn.

As long as the actors are consenting adults, it should unquestionably be allowed.

Freedom of expression doesn't mean you have to agree with what's being expressed. I would guess that no one on this site would agree with the KKK, but most will argue for their right to free speech. Whether you respect that right is irrelevant as it has been ruled a right.

You're dead wrong, and your beliefs are authoritarian.

[Arcanetrance]

243. It's not authoritarian to draw a line racist dehumanization

[Major Nikon]

254. If you are talking about preventing people from crossing that line...

Then yes, it is.

If you want to draw that line and claim people are shitbags for crossing it, then no it isn't.

That's how freedom of speech works.

[Hissyspit]

118. Oh, good grief....

[eggplant]

126. Thank you for your puritanism.

What you saw is but one genre of porn. There are more genres than you can imagine. Lots more. Some you might even like.

As for the names they call each other or the activities they show, it's porn for god's sake. You are upset because it offends you? Then don't watch it. You don't get to be the arbiter of what is acceptable and what is not.

As many others have said, violence and sex have nothing to do with each other. Violence implies non-consent. That's the whole point. Activities between consenting adults are none of your business.

Porn has existed since the dawn of time. It's not like it is something new that is threatening to destroy our society. On the contrary. Porn drives technology, more than any other industry. You sit there at your personal computer able to anonymously complain about porn, because of porn!

If you want to complain, sell your computer and stay offline.

[Arcanetrance]

136. Any puritanism in me is completely self imagined on your part

I really doubt when computers were being thought up it was by a bunch of guys going holy shit i can't fucking wait to finish inventing this so i can Jack the fuck off to porn. Trust me my ability to use my computer has nothing to do with porn.

[eggplant]

155. As someone who has been in the computer industry for the past 35 years...

...I can tell you that crappy ASCII printouts on dot matrix printers of naked women were common back then. If you don't think that each new technical innovation in computing was quickly followed by people sharing porn, you're really naïve.

It is the volume of money spent on porn which makes technology viable in the marketplace.

The internet exists in its current form in order to provide the bandwidth necessary to stream porn. DSL and Cable modems became commercially viable because people were willing to pay a premium for fast access to porn. Dial-up modems ran at higher and higher baud rates so people could download crappy images of porn. Pay-per-view TV exists because of porn. Cable TV exists because of porn. VCRs exist because of porn. DVD players exist because of porn.

Back in the day when people had home movie cameras, you could buy 8mm porn. Or photo postcards. Or printed books. Or paintings. There was probably porn cave art.

Porn exists because humans like it. We have for millennia. You may find it shocking, but others enjoy it.

Your ability to *economically own* a computer with high speed access to the internet is 100% because of porn, whether you like it or not.

[xulamaude]

171. And that really is the sad truth of it

That we only have access to tools designed primarily for porn and war applications.

Thank you for reminding us of that.

[eggplant]

175. And kittens! Don't forget the kittens!

What would the internet be without endless photos and videos of cute, cuddly kittens?

I'm sorry you think it is sad. Technology has brought distant people together, provided a means where anyone - anywhere - can share their thoughts, their hopes, their dreams, with anyone else on the planet. People are able to see the truth about the world around them, because people have the means to share it. To me, that's astounding.

[xulamaude]

179. Astounding indeed and I make good use of it myself

it IS sad however that two of the biggest reasons I am able to utilize these tools (and I don't forget it for a minute because I am fully aware of it) is because of war and porn.

Two things I am personally against and have no hand in propagating except that I pay taxes.

[eggplant]

188. The kittens thank you!

I will mention that technology can be used for good as well as bad. The same internet that promotes war also promotes peace. The same internet that brings us porn also brings us together.

I can respect that you are anti-war and anti-porn. And I can respect that you pay taxes and recognize that some of that money is going to be used for things you aren't happy about. This is what allows us to live in a civilized society.

[mwrguy]

141. There are plenty of videos where men get called those names, and things inserted into their butts

I'd share some links, but that probably wouldn't go over so well.

[Arcanetrance]

160. And I think it's just as dehumanizing to call men those names

[mwrguy]

197. Some people like that sort of treatment and seek it out

Hell, a lot of guys pay big bucks to be treated like that.

[AtheistCrusader]

143. There's a 'categories' button at the top.

Rule 34. There's plenty of it that doesn't have the material you are concerned about.

Can some of it be harmful to people? I suppose, depending on what they take away from it as being normal human behavior. True of any form of fantasy entertainment though.

[BainsBane]

149. You found very mild representations of what we've been talking about

If you would have googled rape porn, you would have found "Indian gang rape," "drunk girl rape," and "military rape."

[zazen]

153. I wish there were an easy way to report what clearly looks criminal

I mean, you and I know the circumstances are typically coercive varying only by degree, but some of the things I've found (without looking more than "three links deep&quot were so upsetting I wanted to report them. But to whom? Is there a national clearinghouse now? The girls were Asian and 15ish?, but what they were being made to do in the still shots was so shocking and their faces so dead that it had to be part of a syndicate. I also wondered if I'd be accused of using child porn simply by happening upon the links.

[BainsBane]

161. Very little of it is illegal

and most of what you probably see is not produced in the US, or if it is they route through an international server to avoid detection.

In this country, disturbing isn't a criteria. Child porn is dealt with most seriously. Other than that you would need to know the porn is documenting an actual crime or have some evidence (probably more than a suggestion) that the performers are victims of human trafficking, meaning slavery.

This is all supposition. I have no expertise in the matter.

I once reported a pedophile I encountered online and that resulted in an arrest for possession of child pornography. He talked to me about raping his daughter. I called the police department in the area indicated on his profile. The local police department came out to take a report from me. This was on AOL many years ago.

[eggplant]

164. Modern porn requires proof of age of the actors.

"Kiddy porn" is not porn. It is non-consensual abuse. Let's not confuse the two. Some 18 year olds "look" quite young. Some people like that. 18 is the legal age of consent in most places. Sorry if that bothers you.

You seem to think that all porn is coercive. Most porn is porn you never see -- porn made by average people for their own amusement. You'd be hard pressed to argue that was coercive. Polaroid made a fortune because of homemade porn.

You also seem to think that all porn is about young girls for the amusement of misogynist men. On the contrary, there is porn for everyone. There is audio porn for the blind. There is porn for the disabled. Some people really get off on that. There is porn about balloons. Yes, balloons. There is porn for blind lesbian paraplegics. You name it, and there's porn about it.

Are there types of porn that make me squeamish? Sure. Then again, I don't like brussel sprouts -- but I don't freak out that other people like them.

[LadyHawkAZ]

180. Contact the FBI

If you think you've found child porn, this is where you go:

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/innocent

[zazen]

265. thx--the condescension of other posters aside, I recognize pubescent breasts,

having had them, you know.

When I wrote that what I saw was disturbing (what the poster above said must have just made me "squeamish,&quot what I actually saw was obvious abuse of girls clearly underage. But to provide the gruesome details here would trigger people and is unnecessary. It wasn't faked and their breasts weren't fully developed. But they weren't obviously younger than 12, and I haven't known where to go to report abuse within the "Lolita" genre, having felt that it's been so prolific as to be ignored.

Thanks LadyHawkAZ for the links.

[LadyHawkAZ]

267. You're quite welcome.

I support porn made by consenting adults. Kids aren't consenting adults. That stuff needs to be reported wherever it turns up.

[Arcanetrance]

163. I can't stomach it the descriptions of it or any of it I get physically ill

[eggplant]

170. And yet you are staying and continuing to argue.

If it bothers you that much, don't look at it.

[Arcanetrance]

174. If you think you'll go to every one of my posts and harass me into submission you're in for a

surprise.

[CTyankee]

183. geez...Stay classy, eggplant...

how charming...

[eggplant]

190. I was just making a point.

Porn is what we make of it. What does it for some people doesn't do it for others. Some people can't get enough of it. Some people are turned off by all of it.

But this whole thread of "yea, but *this* porn is unacceptable" is just silly.

[lostincalifornia]

200. Remember when Lenny Bruce was arrested for obscenity because of his vocabulary? Cuccinelli

has from very strong opinions on sodomy, and what should or should not be considered "normal"

Should oral sex be a felony? Who decides?

[CTyankee]

236. I think that 5-1 jury was telling you something, buddy...

[kentauros]

156. I prefer consenting cartoon characters anyway:

http://www.studiofoglio.com/xeno.html

[Blue_Adept]

167. Foglio for the win!

He always produced some hilarious stuff.

[kentauros]

173. He never stopped producing great stuff :)

I've never read Girl Genius, but have seen that it's quite popular.

Now, I thought I had the Xxxenophile game cards, but I haven't looked at my non-sport trading cards sets in a while. I'll have to do some digging. The Xxxenophile comics were great and you can still get the TPB collections

[mwrguy]

199. Girl Genius is great

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

The entire run of the comic (so far) is there.

[kentauros]

203. Thanks!

more online stuff to read...

[kentauros]

214. Ack! Wrong place!

[Blue_Adept]

228. I still remember his Dragon Magazine work

Phil & Dixie. So much awesomeness.

[lostincalifornia]

193. Staying out of porn threads, but appears not porn sites. Curious, where do you find that a porn

site is The most popular on the net?

and actually, anyone who is going to where you are suggesting is most likely risking that there computer may get infected with malware

[Paolo123]

204. You are totally wrong though

All these things combined show me that there is a violent culture around porn that is creating sexually violent individuals who desire not only to see more and more violent sexual acts but also participate in them. [/blockquote

Sex crimes have plummeted since the advent of the internet.

[Major Nikon]

207. The casual evidence to support the OP's claim is dubious

It generally involves things like 'erotoxins' and other shit for brains concepts developed by right wing influence peddlers. Real research by genuine scientists and analyzed by competent and unbiased experts has already provided us with the "does porn cause rape?" question, and the answer is it's time to put that one to bed. Substitute sexism for rape and the answer isn't much different.

As you noted the correlative evidence goes the other way.

Another hypothetical goes something like this. What if folks who are predisposed to actual sexual violence are using porn as an outlet rather than actual sexual violence?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-sunny-side-of-smut

[BainsBane]

220. violent crime has declined in the industrialized West due to demographic factors

The percentage of women being raped has not declined.

[Paolo123]

250. nope

There is plenty of research that has taken that into account.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130111326.htm

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html

http://phys.org/news187448961.html

[Major Nikon]

251. RAINN disagrees

I'll take the word of the largest and most respected rape victim advocacy organization in the world over the opinion of a nameless blogger any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Just sayin'

The Unvictims
Sexual assault has fallen by more than 50% in recent years.2

Had the 1993 rate held steady, about 9.7 million Americans would have been assaulted in the last 20 years.

Thanks to the decline, the actual number of victims was about 4.2 million. In other words, if not for the progress we've made in the last 20 years, an additional 5.5 million Americans would have become victims of sexual violence.

While we should be happy that we’re making progress, we are still a very long way from solving this problem. Every two minutes, another American is sexually assaulted.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

[lumberjack_jeff]

259. stickily MRA LIES!!!!

A smart guy said "If the reality doesn't match the theory, reject the theory, not the reality".

[alarimer]

209. I think porn can be done in a way that's not misogynistic, but most of it is not.

Most is degrading and extremely misogynistic.

I also think it's exploitative, especially to young, impressionable people new to Hollywood who only want a movie career. They are often sucked into the adult film industry.

Now I think a lot of Hollywood is sexist and exploits people as well.

[kentauros]

215. And then there are the consenting Gingerbread Men:

Thank you Cake Wrecks!

[ecstatic]

232. I have no doubt the proliferation of easily accessible porn has harmed

relationships.

That being said, I think people (at least up until 10 years ago) were able compartmentalize porn in a way that didn't spill over into day to day life. For instance, imagine someone who likes to "talk dirty" during sex but is completely the opposite outside the bedroom. The video titles you spoke of are just an extension of that "talking dirty" thing. Personally, I prefer not to shift in and out of character like that and find it completely awkward, but many people don't have that issue--or at least didn't have that issue before porn became so easily available online.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

253. Offense to women

[TransitJohn]

256. You look at wierd porn.

I'm sure it "was all just for research, honest."

[Arcanetrance]

258. Yes that must be it of course how could I have been so dumb

It's me I'm looking at the wrong stuff. Come on kid gotta do better than that

[aikoaiko]

261. fiction is bad because it reminds you of something real?

Is that your main point?

[nomorenomore08]

278. Maybe more that the line between fiction and reality here is blurry enough to concern people?

[99Forever]

272. In the eye of the beholder.

What you or I may or may like, hate, love, detest, be revolted bt, crave or whatever is irrelevant.

That's called FREEDOM OF EXPRESION. It's protected by the Constitution. Sorry that troubles you.

No, actually I'm not sorry at all.That freedom is far more important than your delicate sensibilities.

[Arcanetrance]

273. You seem to think I have delicate sensibilities

It's funny it seems I have offended you more than anything. You put in all caps freedom of expression while completely pissing on me for expressing myself and my point of view. This whole catch all that the constitution protects anything you want to do or say. But even the supreme court says there are exceptions to this idea.

[nomorenomore08]

279. "The Supreme Court says there are exceptions." See, I agree with you completely, otherwise.

But a sentence like that only gives people fuel to say you're trying to ban porno, when I (and others) know full well you're not.

You're absolutely correct, though, that the First Amendment gives you just as much right to object to disturbing content, as it gives others the right to generate that disturbing content.

[Arcanetrance]

282. True that's not what I wanted to put forward

[99Forever]

295. You're citing Fat Tony and the Supremes?

The clowns that gave us The Idiot Son? And says money is Free Speech? And Corporations are People and have rights as such? That court? How very "Democratic" of you. So very "liberal and progressive." Yessir, Scalia and Thomas, true activists for for equal rights.

And capitalization = emotions now? Wow, who knew?

(Oh, and btw way, where did I say you can't express yourself? Seems as if you are the one getting all worked up because I dared to argue the other side, not I.)

Pot meet kettle.

[Kurska]

304. "the supreme court says there are exceptions to this idea." and they said this kind of porn ain't it

So unless you're suggesting we determine the "exceptions" via as he/she said "your delicate sensibilities" his/her point still stands.

[liberal_at_heart]

274. My daughter is taking a psychology/sex class. She has a female classmate that is into fisting.

To each their own. Stay out of their bedroom.

[Arcanetrance]

275. How is pointing out the violent trend in mainstream pornography putting myself in anyones bedroom

I have no objections to what people prefer in their sex life with their chosen partner or partners. What I object to like I said is the decided dehumanization and violence toward women in porn .

[Prophet 451]

280. "None of you can sit here with a straight face and tell me those are terms of endearment"

Actually, I can. Or at least, they can be. This smells very strongly to me of trying to ban (no, you didn't say it but there's a clear undertone of "ban this filth", let's not play games) sexual tastes that you find icky. There are people who enjoy being degraded, humiliated, called names and so on. I know that because I'm one of them. There are people who enjoy inserting objects into their anus, who enjoy anal sex. You're making the assumption that because you find this or that act repulsive, everyone would and obviously, these poor girls couldn't be doing it voluntarily but here's the thing, human sexuality is really, really weird. People have all kinds of fetishes. Lots of people are into crazy stuff, lots of people are sexual submissives who enjoy being dominated. Take a look around one of the kink dating sites (Alt.com being the biggest) and you'll find tens of thousands of them around the country and probably several hundred in your area. You're not into this stuff, fine. Nothing says you should be. But you don't get to define what is acceptable sexual tastes for anyone else which is what you're doing now. You're simply assuming that the girls couldn't possibly be into this stuff because you're not into it.

I've known porn girls. Some of them are screwed up, that's true and if you're wanting to get some more support for those girls, I'm right there with you. But most of them are no more screwed up than you or I and yes, some of them are into this stuff. My SO was a phone sex operator and you would not believe what some people are into. Or go looking on any porn tube style site and you'll find a shitload of amateur porn where teh girls are filming and exhibiting themselves for their own kicks.

And if someone's consenting, it's not rape. No matter how extreme or distasteful you find the sex act. Only rape is rape. That's another misconception about the porn business; that the porn business needs to rape the girls. The fact is, there are a dozen girls lining up at the door to do porn, there's no need to coerce a girl into doing porn when there's a dozen waiting who'll happily do the same job without the fuss (Noteable exception: rape porn. That probably does need to be banned due to the difficulty of telling teh difference between a girl pretending to be raped and a girl actually being raped).

Now, I'm not saying that the porn business is all happy or risk-free. It certainly needs some proper regulation. Rubbers need to be mandated, standards need to be enforced and pretty much all the performers are drastically underpaid. And yes, rape porn probably needs to be banned unless we can come up with a foolproof way of ensuring it's only simulated. But, assuming consenting adults, you don't get to dictate what people do with their sexuality just because you find it distasteful.

[Arcanetrance]

283. I'm not trying to push for a ban my point was against those that say there are no violent tendencies

In mainstream porn

[Prophet 451]

284. Stop playing semantic games

No, you didn't say the word "ban" but the tone was clear and I'm far from the only person who saw it.

Secondly, you're again infantilizing the girls by assuming that they couldn't be choosing to do this for their own reasons. You're saying that no-one should like rough sex or violent sex but people do. Some people are wired to be doms, some are wired to be subs. Some women enjoy being spanked, whipped or sexually tortured. Some women like to sexually torture others. Read some research about the intersection of human psychology and sexuality (which the media persists, to my irritation, in calling "sexology&quot and you'll find that even the most extreme sexual tastes are held by a surprising amount of people. I can suggest some reading if you like (no, not porn, academic studies). You're saying they shouldn't be expressing their sexuality that way because you find it icky. You're trying to make sexuality simple: violence, bad; porn, bad; missionary position for procreation, good. But real people aren't that simple, sexuality isn't that simple.

Thirdly, you're assuming that violent fantasies (and porn is about selling a fantasy, I write the bloody stuff) translate to real-life violence. But the evidence on that is far from clear-cut. In kids, sure. Kids will imitate violence if they see it, Bandura's bobo dolls proved that. But in adults, the evidence is far from conclusive and there's a certain amount of evidence (which, again, is far from conclusive) that it goes the other way; that viewing this stuff actually acts as a "safety valve". And if you think about it, making that assumption is a really unsafe bet. Think of all the violence we see in movies all the time. Most of western Europe sees the same movies but most of western Europe isn't swimming in blood. Again, people are more complex than this. The adult mind is fully capable of separating the fantasy it sees on screen from the real world it sees through it's window.

I've been studying psychology formally for five years now. I've been studying the intersection of sexuality and psychology informally for much longer. I'll finish up my BSc sometime next year (I'm doing it over six years due to ill-health), do my masters in Forensic Psychology and, assuming I can secure financing, I'll then be doing my doctorate. And here is the most important thing I've learned: People are much more complex than we think. What we would think were clear, "if this, then this" motivations are never, ever that simple

[opiate69]

285. Well stated. And yeah.. they're always careful to avoid the word "ban", but..

In reality, what they admit to wanting is to eradicate the demand, by shaming the consumers of this material, effectively passive-aggressively creating a de facto ban since a lack of marketability would, presumably, lead to the cessation of the production of it.

[Arcanetrance]

286. Ok read what you want I really don't give a damn you'r playing a fucking game it's called ignorance

I don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth.

[Prophet 451]

289. Would you like me to quote your words?

"the acts that seem to be depicted in those videos strike me as rape"

"tell me it doesn't harm anyone"

"Sex and violence shouldn't go together"

"So do you think its outside the realm of possibility to have gotten consent through coercion"

"holocaust porn or any porn of racist intent is disgusting and yes it should fucking be banned"

"This whole catch all that the constitution protects anything you want to do or say. But even the supreme court says there are exceptions to this idea."

I don't need to put words in your mouth, sweetie. You've done that for me and your implication was very clear.

And pretending to be so offended at me picking up on that implication that you have to flounce off is a really good way to avoid addressing my points.

[Arcanetrance]

292. Do me a favor and don't call me sweetie that's the first thing

To address the quotes:

1. The acts in those videos are violent and would seem like something one would expect from a rape.

2. Debasing people is a form violence mental not hesitate but still violence

3. Sex and violence shouldn't got together that's how I feel.

4. In an industry where there has been history of coercion that isn't a far out possibility.

5. In any other case people would be outraged that there are people that go out and dehumanize someone based on race and ethnicity. So yes porn centering around Jewish women being debased by someone in an SS uniform is sick.

6. That was in response to a person who much like you talks about absolute freedom of expression yet are outraged I express myself. Also I did feel it needed to be noted in the context of that individuals post that the Supreme Court had in the past set limits

Now as far as your belief I've implied a ban by shaming others. If you're ashamed of what you're doing in your sex life that's on you.

[Prophet 451]

294. OK, "sweetie" was patronising

I'll apologise for that one.

1) And rape is a crime, hence the clear implication that this should be banned.
2) An some people like to be debased that way. Again, you are saying that teh only acceptable outlets of sexuality are the ones that *you* are comfortable with.
3) Again, the only acceptable form of sexual expression are forms you're comfortable with.
4) Except that it's really questionable whether there has been any widespread history of coercion. Humans have been producing porn for as long as we've been human, including in societies that treated women much better than we do. Again, there have always been willing participants in porn.
5) a. Again, some people get off on others treating them that way. My SO had a regular caller who got off on being called ethnic slurs (he was Pakistani, IIRC); b. Sick doesn't mean it should be banned. I think the protests of the WBC are sick but the SCOTUS has decided that they're protected by free speech. Nazi porn is sick, I entirely agree, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned.
6) You're making the assumption that, just because I'm arguing against you, I'm outraged by you expressing your opinion. Sorry to interrupt your persecution party but I'm really not. I just don't agree with you.

"Now as far as your belief I've implied a ban by shaming others. If you're ashamed of what you're doing in your sex life that's on you. "

No, that's just shifting goalposts. Your implication was clear, many people picked up on it, you don't get to try flipping it back on me.

[liberal_at_heart]

290. Good post. I don't know why people try to tell others they can't do something because they

themselves don't like it. This is a problem that permeates our entire culture and and crosses all political boundaries. Liberals are just as likely to tell someone they are not allowed to do something because they don't like it as the conservatives. We as a culture can't imagine people thinking or doing things differently than we would do them.

[Kurska]

300. If you must know

I've called my boyfriend a cock-sucking little bitch in bed before, hell I've called him way worse.

He is still the love of my life, I suspect you may not understand all the nuisances of human sexuality.

I'll be sure to let him now that according to your logic I raped him, oh well some fine books have been written in prison.

[Capt. Obvious]

301. This is just straight trolling now

You post this thread at the same time you posted this thread.

There was no need to rally the troops as you already had the word "porn" in your title.

[Kurska]

302. Seriously, I'd never imply criticism on one our most beloved DU group

But I'm growing tired of what essentially amounts to repeated and organized invasions of general discussion by sub-groups. It wouldn't be a big deal if every single one of these threads didn't devolve into a massive yelling rage off.