How do you respond to that?

[TeamsterDem]

I watched Real Time with Bill Maher tonight and he had a segment where Alexandra Pelosi went to the deep south to do some guy-on-the-street interviews. As you'd imagine the responses ranged from idiotic to offensive. I don't think anyone can change a racist or a bigot or a sexist, but it might be possible to engage the less kneejerky of that element seeing as the south is often the poorest area of the country, so it should be ripe for an insurgent wave of ideas challenging the stereotypes and pointing out that life under the Red State masters hasn't turned out well for anyone.

At one point one of the interviewees stated that he hated the federal government, that they're worthless, except that he does receive welfare. Another one started by saying he wanted to see "Obama care" wiped out. When asked that the defenseless need medical care too, his blistering response was "umm, yeah." My point I guess is that this shouldn't be the hardest argument to win. But imagining turning just a few southern states purple or blue would sure strengthen our chances to elect Democrats. So it seems like a worthwhile thing to do.

But how do you tell a guy the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results, and then asking him how voting Republican for all of this time hasn't improved anything only to hear him say "yeah, but it might."

One guy said he'd rather go broke than vote for Democrats (he said vote against his beliefs and conscience). That one is telling, it says that if we could somehow do a better sales pitch in the south that we could diminish the differences he thinks we have while showcasing the economic power he inherently admitted we wield when he said he'd rather go broke (voting Republican).

There is a lot of racism and sexism in the south. But it's not all of them. And there are a lot of traditional Democratic voters: University students, minorities, women, and in some cases even union members. Maybe if our initial insurgency focused just on those groups we might cause some change. Yeah the Republican lies are well-ingrained in southern culture, so it wouldn't be easy or overnight. But the initial Civil War South has now grown west and north. Ceding that electoral ground seems cowardly and ill-advised.

So what might you say to someone like these people who in many cases don't even know why they don't like Democrats, they're just sure they do.

[mdmc]

1. You offer them something better

We need to give up on the DLC and get a real deal democratic party. It would happen in Obama's second term, but there is a tide coming..

[libtodeath]

2. If we actually had

a government for the people,by the people for we the people only the 1% would ever vote repuke again.
We have to run true progressives that educate people to the fact that they are getting screwed over by fat cats that will never give a damn about them and will never let them in the club.
Once the demand that the government insures economic justice and fairness begins and the plundered wealth is returned back to the people equally all but the hardest core racists will vote for those that do have their best interests in mind.

[rurallib]

4. breaking through their walls of defense is hard

and those walls are strengthened daily with shots of limbaugh and hannity and crazy preachers.

On the rare occasion when i can engage a winger in discussions, they have agreed eventually with me, but they still refuse to vote for Dems.

One conclusion I have come to is that their one core belief is anti-abortion. All else is changeable.

[treestar]

3. IMO the average conservative doesn't really believe the Ayn Rand part

of conservatism. For example, that guy gets welfare. But it's black people getting welfare that they oppose. I think attacking the racism may be the best way - even conservatives now know racism is wrong. Few of them come right out and say it.

[TeamsterDem]

5. I think that's very true

But wouldn't racism be super tough to attack? I say that because racism itself is illogical, and I don't know how to combat a lack of logic with logic and facts. Or put another way, while I agree that racism underpins a lot of the problem, I simultaneously hope that it's not the underlying problem because it's shown a very difficult bias to overcome with facts. There are some of them who actually believe that immigrants and black people have more rights than whites, and that white people are discriminated against while blacks enjoy this fantasy coddled status. It's pure fiction, of course, but if racists have proven anything over the years it's that they won't be disturbed by your facts.

I don't think all southerners are racists. But I do agree that they don't like public assistance (unless they need it) and they don't like the federal government. I suspect that the former is a winnable argument, but the latter is more complex seeing as they can - rightly - point out that theoretically a government could get very large and controlling of its people, something almost no one would enjoy. But when it's pointed out that our government isn't actually that oppressive, they point to the federal government "control" of education as some one-size-fits-all argument against government power, as if the schools go about literally strapping kids' eyes open and forcing them to watch indoctrination videos. It's a very difficult argument to have, largely because the Christian majority there seems to honestly believe that the freedom of religion only applies to Christians, and that it should somehow mean freedom to teach Christianity to everyone - in public schools.

Unfortunately I've only seen that side of the opinion spectrum widening in the South. Widening and getting more recalcitrant. And not just there, but the states in which Rick Santorum won I would bet cash money that the views I've described were the ones which controlled that voting behavior. How you combat that I don't really know considering that now in many places it's considered a mainstream argument to hold that the government actually SHOULD embrace one religion's views as its own; it's not considered wacky to say in some areas that the Bible is more supreme than the Constitution, and that where the latter conflicts with the former that it should be okay to eschew the latter in favor of the former. That's a very deeply-held religious view, and how we go about changing it I'm not really certain.

We liberals too have often ceded this ground, allowing ourselves to be tagged as liberal (in the right-wing pejorative sense) - paradoxically for holding the same position that the founders did. If there was ever a more conservative position I don't know what it would be. On that area we should start by pointing out that our views are actually the conservative position inasmuch as we say the same as what the founders said, and those who say the opposite are the pejorative "liberals" (using that because in the south anything labeled "liberal" is automatically wrong and offensive). It should ALWAYS be a radical, extremist position to say that there is a higher law of the land than the Constitution, and we should start by pointing that out. If they want to argue that they shouldn't have to help fund any abortions through tax dollars, then we should argue that they alone should have to pay for the wars and Bush tax cuts since we didn't want those. Once that sort of logic is presented the idea of commonality of interest might be reinvigorated.

But these are the extremes in the south. There are still moderate elements there who aren't as viciously anti-government. And I think a big part of the reason why this stuff is expanding is because there aren't many credible voices on the other side advocating why that's a destructive path. If we could forge an alliance between the moderates and what remains of the Democratic constituency down there I think we could at least be competitive, even in some rural areas.

[treestar]

9. True that logic has no effect

Maybe we can think of ways to appeal to their emotions. It's obviously what the right does. Appealing to their better natures somehow.

[TeamsterDem]

12. I think you've got something cooking there

Many southerners are very religious, so perhaps a Bible strategy pointing out that we're all God's children might help blunt the racism. At some point one would think the religion and the racism would conflict, perhaps if we can help them see that conflict we might gain their trust.

Or we might be able to show them that black people attend mass at about the same or slightly higher rate than whites, appeal to their religious beliefs; make them see a kinship with their African American brothers and sisters of God.

[Doctor_J]

6. How are you going to run a "sales pitch" when the fascists own all of the media?

All these idiots know is what they hear on 1200 symphonic hate radio outlets and Fox "News". Your post sounds heart felt, but completely clueless.

[TeamsterDem]

7. Well, I think it's clueless to say that one only reaches an audience through media

and that southerners aren't smart enough to understand things. I think they are. What I believe is that the Civil Rights Act caused Democrats to lose their southern seats owing directly to racism, but I also realize that was 50+ years ago and that - even in the south - some things have changed. I'm not saying it's a bastion of liberalism, only that I don't think that racism is as controlling down there as it once was. And when the Dixiecrats lost their seats, it's my view that Democrats just fled the area, viewing it as unwinnable, thus making it unwinnable.

I think an organized ground game seeking to change the minds or modify the views a bit would work. True, you're not going to change the KKK types, but thankfully the KKK isn't the majority. I know southerners from having been on organizing drives there. Tons of good people in the south, tons of smart people in the south. I think we ceded the south after the CRA, and that states like North Carolina show that we can be competitive if we compete. It's not easy and we won't turn Mississippi into a permanently blue state, but if we could win elections here and there and yank a few more representatives out of places like that it might be the difference in who holds committees, things like that.

[treestar]

8. It would be best to fight there, since, if they don't see many Democrats

The will continue to be able to cast them as rabid Marxists. Seeing that Democrats aren't so scary and not so far from what they'd really want would be a help. I think you are right we should not cede those states.

[TeamsterDem]

10. You just summed it up perfectly

They're scared of what they don't know. And not knowing us is partially our own fault because we automatically chalk those states up as red and don't even fight there except in some urban areas. Maybe if they met a few Democrats who weren't the perfect caricatures that the Limbaugh types paint of us we might get some of their votes.

[Doctor_J]

14. I didn't say that was the only way

What I said was that word-of-mouth doesn't stand a chance against the saturation bombing that the right wing employs coast-to-coast 24/7. All views to the left of Boner are completely shut out of the mass media. Clear channel is going to pull the plug on all Dem/liberal radio hosts in preparation for campaign. You need to come to grips with the problem before a solution can be contemplated.

[aaaaaa5a]

11. You can't break through racism. You can't break through southern culture.

The only way we are ever going to win in the south is through changing demographics.

Thats why NC and VA are now competitive.

1) First more educated and culturally aware people are moving into these areas.

2) Secondly, educational achievements are rising.

3) Thirdly, the population is becoming less religious (which leads to less hatred of minorities, women, gays) and more urban.

4) Fourthly, people loyal to traditional southern culture are dying off at a faster rate than the general population. (This leads to less racism, confederate flags, the shunning of education etc.)

5) Finally minority populations are growing at a faster rate.


These 5 simple steps are occurring in NC and VA. Thus they these states are competitive. And their standards of education, knowledge, achievement and quality of life are improving. Until these trends hit places like Alabama and Mississippi, nothing is going to change. The people in that video are lost causes. Nothing can be done for them. We as a society literally just have to wait them out. Mississippi is last for a reason. Its called how they vote!

[lunatica]

13. They're like those people who keep falling in love with the same abusive types

They believe the initial promises and romance every single time no matter how abused they get.

Teabaggers like gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin ran on promises that never once included fighting public service unions. If they had even teabaggers wouldn't have voted for them.

You just need to point that out. Get them to start thinking before they're in the process of 'falling in love' again, and then point out how the politicians are lying, based on their real records.