The world's most dangerous moment is upon us (Fukushima)

[Bennyboy]

THIS HAS BEEN MAKING THE ROUNDS ON THE INTERWEBS AND THERE IS NO SOURCE YET, SO I PUT UP THE WHOLE THING:

We are within weeks of what may be humankind’s most dangerous moment and it is coming just as the greatest credit bubble in history is about to pop. Images of the movie Armageddon, with Bruce Willis, have been hanging like a cloud over me. In the movie, everyone on earth was watching to see if Willis would succeed in blowing up the incoming asteroid. If he and his team failed, everyone on earth was going to die so everyone was paying attention and praying for salvation.

The most dangerous situation humanity has ever faced is upon us and no one is watching. Only a few have reported on what is about to happen starting in November. The operation, to remove 400 tons of highly irradiated spent fuel beneath the plant’s damaged Reactor No. 4, could set off a catastrophe greater than any we have ever seen, independent experts warn. An operation of this scale, says plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Company, has never been attempted before, and is fraught with danger.

The New York Times reports, “Thousands of workers and a small fleet of cranes are preparing for one of the latest efforts to avoid a deepening environmental disaster that has China and other neighbors increasingly worried: removing spent fuel rods from the damaged No. 4 reactor building and storing them in a safer place.”

The Japan Times writes, “In November, Tepco plans to begin the delicate operation of removing spent fuel from Reactor No. 4 [with] radiation equivalent to 14,000 times the amount released by the Hiroshima atomic bomb. Removing its spent fuel, which contains deadly plutonium, is an urgent task. The consequences could be far more severe than any nuclear accident the world has ever seen. If a fuel rod is dropped, breaks or becomes entangled while being removed, possible worst-case scenarios include a big explosion, a meltdown in the pool, or a large nuclear fire. Any of these situations could lead to massive releases of deadly radionuclides into the atmosphere, putting much of Japan — including Tokyo and Yokohama — and even neighboring countries at serious risk.”

The operator of Japan’s crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is preparing to remove 400 tons of highly irradiated spent fuel from a damaged reactor building. Containing more than 1,300 used fuel rod assemblies packed tightly together they need to be removed from a the third floor of a building that is vulnerable to collapse, should another large earthquake hit the area.

Tepco expects to take about a year removing the assemblies. Each fuel rod assembly weighs about 300 kilograms (660 pounds) and is 4.5 meters (15 feet) long. Spent fuel rods also contain plutonium, one of the most toxic substances in the universe.

Former U.N. adviser Akio Matsumura calls removing the radioactive materials from the Fukushima fuel pools “an issue of human survival”. Mycle Schneider and Antony Froggatt said recently in their World Nuclear Industry Status Report 2013, “Full release from the Unit-4 spent fuel pool, without any containment or control, could cause by far the most serious radiological disaster to date.”

The operation, beginning this November at the plant’s Reactor No. 4, is fraught with danger, including the possibility of a large release of radiation if a fuel assembly breaks, gets stuck or gets too close to an adjacent bundle. Removing the rods from the pool is a delicate task normally assisted by computers, according to Toshio Kimura, a former Tepco technician, who worked at Fukushima Daiichi for 11 years. “Previously it was a computer-controlled process that memorized the exact locations of the rods down to the millimeter and now they don’t have that. It has to be done manually so there is a high risk that they will drop and break one of the fuel rods,” Kimura said.

Japan’s former Ambassador to Switzerland, Mr. Mitsuhei Murata stated that if the 1,535 fuel rods in the spent fuel pool 100 feet (30 meters) above the ground—collapses it will affect the common spent fuel pool containing 6,375 fuel rods, located some 50 meters from reactor 4. In both cases the radioactive rods are not protected by a containment vessel; dangerously, they are open to the air. This would certainly cause a global catastrophe like we have never before experienced. Such a catastrophe would affect us for centuries.

Hiroshi Tasaka, who has a doctorate in nuclear engineering and is now a professor at Tama University said, “The biggest risk during the meltdown crisis wasn’t the reactors themselves but the spent fuel pools sitting atop them, particularly the one above reactor 4, which still contains about 1,500 nuclear fuel assemblies. I would say the crisis opened Pandora’s box.”

[PDJane]

1. Yeah, it is all over the place. It's from a Dr. Sircus.

http://www.newrealities.com/index.php/articles-on-politicseconomy/item/3073-the-most-dangerous-situation-humanity-has-faced
http://drsircus.com/world-news/no-one-is-watching
http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2013/10/09/fukushima-while-no-one-is-watching-humanity-faces-the-most-dangerous-situation-ever/

[rhett o rick]

79. You left off RT, The New York Times, THe Japan Times, etc.

The New York Times says,

" Problems at the plant seemed to take a sharp turn for the worse in July with the discovery of leaks of contaminated water into the Pacific Ocean. Two weeks ago, Tepco announced that 300 tons of water laced with radioactive strontium, a particle that can be absorbed into human bones, had drained from a faulty tank into the sea.

Contaminated water, used to cool fuel in the plant’s three damaged reactors to prevent them from overheating, will continue to be produced in huge quantities until the flow of groundwater into the buildings can be stopped"

[PDJane]

96. All of those places printed something, but not that particular bit.

[MineralMan]

2. And yet, if they don't do that, it will be even more dangerous.

So, I'd say it wasn't actually the "world's most dangerous moment." There have been many dangerous moments, and many more to come. I hope this removal process goes smoothly and that plenty of planning has gone into its preparations.

I'm not predicting doom and gloom, though. Everyone there is aware of the risks, and is doubtless taking necessary precautions.

[chervilant]

40. "... doubtless taking necessary precautions"?

Is this your "nothing to see here, move along" speech?

We don't have a frame of reference for the extent of this catastrophe! We have been lied to and placated by those whose reputations and fortunes are dependent upon our swallowing their "party line." Well, you'll have to take your rosy reassurance to those who are more ignorant or credulous than I.

Our species is witnessing the consequences of our collective arrogance and hubris. Yet, we seem to be squandering this opportunity to effect meaningful change. Must we resort to condescension? Must we adjure the relatively uninformed to continue to trust the corporatist "scientists" whose raison d'etre is the continued amassing of material wealth, consequences be damned?

I think not.

[MineralMan]

42. Do you suppose that those who are planning what to do

Do not understand the situation? Do you imagine that they are not planning the most effective methods they can devise? What would your plan be? I am not arrogant enough to think I know better what to do than they do. Think!

[chervilant]

47. I once had you on my IL

because of your predilection for condescension, sarcasm, and patronizing posts. I see you're still running true to form...

TEPCO has lied perniciously about Fukushima. The "experts" admit they are unsure about their options. The scope of this crisis is unprecedented and we're supposed to 'trust' the fools that built this nuclear power plant on a major fault line?

I don't need you -- an anonymous blogger on this forum, with a questionable education -- to adjure me to "think!" However, you might want to take your own 'advice.'

[zipplewrath]

101. Best plans may not be good enough

A slightly less snarky response might be the point that these may be the best plans they can come up with, but that doesn't mean they'll work. The original article was a bit on the "breathless description" side, with references to the toxicity of plutonimum that seemed a bit over the top. But what struck me was the fact that these rods are usually done by computer control and now they are going to do things manually. With a few thousand to take care of, that suggests that they're going to need a high level of success.

That said, I suspect there is a certain amount of "learn as you go" here, with some attempt to begin with the "least dangerous" first. It is always hard to express risk for things this risky. It is a bit surprising that more attention isn't being paid publicly. If this were 12 miners buried in a coal mine it'd be 24/7 on CNN. Instead, it's just a big chunk of humanity and the potential contamination of the entire world. We'll either hear about it when it is too late, or it will be a historical footnote for history nerds to read about some day.

[chervilant]

103. There are two issues

that amp up my concern about Fukushima, and you've touched on one:

1) Too many US citizens seem to evince a NIMBY attitude, as though this catastrophe will have little effect on us. This is distressing on many levels.

2) TEPCO has lied from the beginning! And, as Gunderson has noted multiple times, TEPCO is NOT qualified to undertake this clean-up, and should be soliciting assistance from an international consortium of nuclear engineers.

The cost of this clean-up is beyond our abilities to estimate accurately. How do you put a price tag on the Pacific, and the many kilometers of Japan that will remain uninhabitable for generations?

[RobertEarl]

104. Thanks, Chervilant

Your wisdom shown on this thread has been quite important.

This link below talks about how the second worst nuclear plant explosion was covered up by the Russians. The Japanese have not been so successful this time.

http://scienceblog.com/65744/viewing-fukushima-in-the-cold-light-of-chernobyl/

[chervilant]

105. Thank YOU for

persevering with threads about this disaster. Not surprisingly, the M$M has been neglecting to provide information about Fukushima.

[flamingdem]

3. Regardless, Fukushima needs to get more attention

Considering the damage being done to the environment, and the centuries needed to recover, it should have been front page news all along and the world community should have been more involved.

[dotymed]

22. Undoubtedly.

considering the universal damage (that has already happened and the possibility of a worse global disaster).
It shows us (by their near silence) the power of the elite corporations involved, their ownership of our media (that is constitutionally supposed to be a check on the government) and their propensity to not inform the world of a catastrophe (it would financially ruin them all.
Money "talks" especially since citizens United, it is speech itself.
We must determine how, UNITE as world citizens (can you imagine the great possibilities?) and change the entire
wealth dominated paradigm.
I am still at my computer.. I am disabled, a single parent barely surviving, etc.. they have me in "my place." As they have most of us in their place.
In my world, we could unite under the non-corporate (publicly financed) election of Bernie Sanders and a few other rational, people first, leaders. I wish they realized the need for immediate change and called for a Democratic special, world saving election of a legislative council that would inform and "allow" us to .... XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I have dreams of utopian ideals.....
All that I know is we need immediate, real leadership to turn our world around.
That kind of movement is usually usurped by TPTB and used to further imprison and endanger us....

Honestly, if we survive the many perils that are immediate threats to our existence and/or our freedoms, primarily caused by greed and the need to hide their crimes, I feel that Senator Sanders is qualified to lead us to a place in history that is majority "ruled" with Progressive goals..
We shall know them by their works.

[SidDithers]

4. It traces back to Dr. Sircus...

an anti-vax, anti-fluoridation, medical woo site.

Which means it's complete horseshit.

Sid

[99Forever]

6. Yeah, right...

... shoot the messenger, eh "Sid?"

400 tons of highly radioactive and deadly materials being handled by idiots. What could possibly go wrong?

[SidDithers]

7. Not surprised in the least that you'd believe Mark Sircus...

he seems right up your alley.

Sid

[99Forever]

8. I wouldn't know "Mark Sircus"...

... if I tripped over him. Not surprising that you would ignore the REAL issue and straight to the character assassination.

[SidDithers]

10. Well then maybe you should check who he is...

before credulously believing everything you read on the internet.

Sid

[99Forever]

11. I'll pass...

... on anything you recommend. I KNOW it's BS propaganda.

[SidDithers]

12. Of course you will...

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Sid

[99Forever]

18. Of that...

.. there is no doubt.

Carry on.

[awoke_in_2003]

14. I disagree with Sid from time to time...

but if he told me I had linked to a suspect web site, I would investigate further. Independent verification never hurt anyone.

[99Forever]

16. I didn't "link" to anything.

Apparently you are quite fully awake.

Carry on.

[awoke_in_2003]

30. My mistake...

But you are supporting the OP who has linked to a questionable site.

[99Forever]

37. I am not "supporting" anyone.

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

What is it with making up positions then assigning them to people as if they are supposed to then defend them?

You want to know my position about something? Then ask. Don't just presume to tell me what it is.

In this case, my REAL position on this one is this:

Proven bumbling idiots in control of HIGHLY radioactive, dangerous, and VERY unstable materials is VERY bad thing and I care fuckall about Sid's view of the person or persons that are bringing it to the world's attention or for his lame attempts to silence people through constant personal character assassination. Any other questions?

[rhett o rick]

81. Ridicule aside The New York Times say:

Problems at the plant seemed to take a sharp turn for the worse in July with the discovery of leaks of contaminated water into the Pacific Ocean. Two weeks ago, Tepco announced that 300 tons of water laced with radioactive strontium, a particle that can be absorbed into human bones, had drained from a faulty tank into the sea.

Contaminated water, used to cool fuel in the plant’s three damaged reactors to prevent them from overheating, will continue to be produced in huge quantities until the flow of groundwater into the buildings can be stopped

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/04/world/asia/errors-cast-doubt-on-japans-cleanup-of-nuclear-accident-site.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

It is clear there is a huge problem at Fukushima. Tons of spent fuel are in danger of overheating and are not stable where they are located. The question is how big a danger is there in trying to move them.

[SidDithers]

88. And if the OP had posted that article...

then this thread would have been completely different.

But the OP posted an article from drsircus.com, a CT & medical woo site. And, despite Skinner's comments about kooky websites and sourcing, IMO you and the other GD Hosts have again ignored the SOP for GD.

Look, you've demonstrated that there's nothing that could be posted in GD so kooky that you would vote to Lock It. Why have an SOP at all if the attitude of Hosts is that posters can trash threads that are outside of the SOP?

Sid

[rhett o rick]

90. I have voted to lock CT, but not as often as you wish. I am not familiar with

drsircus.com. I did read the article and didnt see any conspiracy involved. There was some hyperbole for sure, but there were also facts that could be verified at least by reputable articles.

My opinions may differ from yours but using ridicule to try to change my mind isnt appropriate IMO.

[SidDithers]

91. Why did you not make yourself familiar with drsircus.com?...

You're a Host. There was an alert that said this thread is sourced from a suspect website. Did you not even take the time to evaluate the source before voting to Leave?

Or are you of the opinion that any source is appropriate for GD?

Sid

[magical thyme]

25. what is not horseshit is that they are planning to remove it in November and an operation of this

exact type has never been attempted before. There was quite a bit of press about it back in August, from better sources.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/13/fukushima-nuclear-plant-cleanup_n_3752046.html

By Aaron Sheldrick and Antoni Slodkowski

TOKYO, Aug 14 (Reuters) - The operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is preparing to remove 400 tonnes of highly irradiated spent fuel from a damaged reactor building, a dangerous operation that has never been attempted before on this scale.

Containing radiation equivalent to 14,000 times the amount released in the atomic bomb attack on Hirosihima 68 years ago, more than 1,300 used fuel rod assemblies packed tightly together need to be removed from a building that is vulnerable to collapse, should another large earthquake hit the area.

Removing the rods from the pool is a delicate task normally asssisted by computers, according to Toshio Kimura, a former Tepco technician, who worked at Fukushima Daiichi for 11 years.

"Previously it was a computer-controlled process that memorised the exact locations of the rods down to the millimetre and now they don't have that. It has to be done manually so there is a high risk that they will drop and break one of the fuel rods," Kimura said.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/14/risky-fix-plannedforfukushimaplant.html

Dangerous operation planned for Fukushima plant
August 14, 2013|1:13AM ET

Tokyo power company plans to remove fuel rods from damaged nuclear reactor; Failure could spell disaster

The operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is preparing to remove 400 tons of highly radioactive spent fuel from a damaged reactor building, a dangerous operation that has never been attempted on this scale. If it goes wrong, the consequences could be far worse than the plant's nuclear accident in March 2011.

"Full release from the Unit-4 spent fuel pool … could cause by far the most serious radiological disaster to date," independent consultants Mycle Schneider and Antony Froggatt said recently in their World Nuclear Industry Status Report 2013. The most serious release of nuclear radiation from a reactor accident to date occurred at the Chernobyl plant in Ukraine in 1986.


http://www.tokyotimes.com/2013/tepco-is-preparing-to-remove-400-tons-of-irradiated-fuel-from-fukushima/
PCO is preparing to remove 400 tons of irradiated fuel from Fukushima

Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO), the operator of Fukushima nuclear plant is preparing to remove a record amount of 400 tons of highly irradiated spent fuel from a damaged reactor building, a dangerous operation that has never been attempted before on this scale.

The operation, beginning this November at the plant's Reactor No. 4, is a dangerous one and includes the possibility of a large release of radiation if a fuel assembly breaks, gets stuck or gets too close to an adjacent bundle, said Gundersen and other nuclear experts.

[SidDithers]

26. And if the OP had used any of those articles and sources...

I wouldn't have commented in the thread at all.

I am strongly opposed, however, to lending any credibility or legitimacy to the Alex Jones / naturalnews / mercola type source being used here.

Sid

[magical thyme]

27. that's ok. I just wanted to be sure readers knew that regardless of the OP source, in this case

the message is essentially correct and info was out there back in August.

[Adsos Letter]

35. At first I wondered what you could possibly have against throat lozenges...

...then I realized you wrote "mercola," not Ricola.

[Vashta Nerada]

68. It's on HuffPo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/13/fukushima-nuclear-plant-cleanup_n_3752046.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

[SidDithers]

73. Not the same article...

The article in the OP is from a CT woo site.

Sid

[SidDithers]

5. More greatness from Dr. Sircus...

Fluoridated Water—The Ultimate Evil

Using Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) for Kidney Cancer

Take Magnesium to Escape Cancer

Orac, a real actual cancer doctor and researcher, completely demolishes Sircus in this article:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/25/the-complexity-of-cancer-part-ii-enter-t/

'Course, it's not the first time you've used quack accupuncturist Mark Sircus as a source. You were rightly castigated in August too:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023403688

Now, lets see if Hosts actually enforce the SOP and relegate your dumbass source to the ASAH or CS Groups.

Sid

[Jerry442]

9. If I'd had an extra bowl of Cream-of-Paranoia this morning...

...I'd say TEPCO got Sircus to release the bad (but factual) news so people would ignore it.

[mopinko]

13. yes please.

the source always has mattered here, and hopefully always will.

[zeemike]

17. yep he must be lying to us about 400 tons of spent fuel rod

Siting on the third floor of a damaged building in an earthquake prone aeria...nothing to worry about there.
Attack the massinger and it makes it all go away.
You should change your signature picture from the Joker to Alfred E Newman....the "What Me Worry?" kid.

[SidDithers]

20. I always get my Fukushima radiation news...

from an acupuncturist whose website exists only to sell books.

YMMV.

If the story is legit, it will be reported in a legit news source. The opinion column in the OP is horseshit.

Sid

[darkangel218]

15. Are they really plan on moving the radioactive material?

Does someone else have a different link?

[jtuck004]

19. Yes, and there is a link to a Gunderson discussion in

this article

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-09-15/real-fukushima-danger

And here,

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-17/radioactive-water-leaking-fukushima-what-we-know

[darkangel218]

23. Thanks!

[jtuck004]

45. Scary as hell, isn't it? Especially with TEPCO in charge... n/t

[randomelement]

28. Thanks for this

Geez .....

My takeaway from the first link:

Nuclear expert Arnie Gundersen and physician Helen Caldicott have both said that people should evacuate the Northern Hemisphere if one of the Fukushima fuel pools collapses. Gundersen said: Move south of the equator if that ever happened, I think that’s probably the lesson there.

So, starting in November, the Northern Hemisphere will be playing a form of "Russian roulette" with Tepco pulling the trigger......

Eat, drink and be merry folks, eat drink and be merry

[JSK]

34. I need to renew my passport

And I can't, thanks to the goddamned fucking Repukes. They'll kill us all, one way or another.

[jtuck004]

43. "Eat, drink and be merry folk..." - just not the fish off the West Coast, for now... n/t

[jeff47]

48. Arnie's and Helen are trying to sell you something by lying.

Because some really basic math would show their claims are impossible.

The volume of the northern hemisphere is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, big.

The quantity of radioactive material in the reactors is big.

Now....what happens when you dilute the reactor's contents throughout the volume of the northern hemisphere?

About as much as when you dilute the contents of a salt shaker in Lake Superior. Doing that doesn't turn the entire lake to salt water.

To further the bullshit they are spewing, there is nothing that prevents the air from the northern hemisphere from mixing with the southern hemisphere. So "move south of the equator!!!!!" wouldn't actually solve the problem they warning about.

But it's great for freaking people out, and getting them to pay attention to you.

[magical thyme]

21. damned if you do. damned if you don't. nt

[Turbineguy]

24. By that time starving Americans will be rioting and shooting eachother

Thanks to the republicans in congress.

[Zorra]

29. If this somehow affects continued airing of Duck Commander, I'll pay attention.

K&R

[sagat]

31. Ugh, leave the chain-email fearmongering to the teabaggers.

[chervilant]

41. Fearmongering?

Engineers warned Tepco and the Japanese government many years before the accident that the reactors were seismically unsafe … and that an earthquake could wipe them out

The Fukushima reactors were fatally damaged before the tsunami hit … the earthquake took them out even before the tidal wave hit

An official Japanese government investigation concluded that the Fukushima accident was a “man-made” disaster, caused by “collusion” between government and Tepco and bad reactor design

Tepco knew right after the 2011 accident that 3 nuclear reactors had lost containment, that the nuclear fuel had “gone missing”, and that there was in fact no real containment at all. Tepco has desperately been trying to cover this up for 2 and a half years … instead pretending that the reactors were in “cold shutdown”

Tepco just admitted that it’s known for 2 years that massive amounts of radioactive water are leaking into the groundwater and Pacific Ocean

Tepco – with no financial incentive to actually fix things – has only been pretending to clean it up.

Tepco’s recent attempts to solidify the ground under the reactors using chemicals has backfired horribly. And NBC News notes: “[Tepco] is considering freezing the ground around the plant. Essentially building a mile-long ice wall underground, something that’s never been tried before to keep the water out. One scientist I spoke to dismissed this idea as grasping at straws, just more evidence that the power company failed to anticipate this problem … and now cannot solve it.”

I want to know the truth, and the full extent of this catastrophe. I want the corporate megalomaniacs -- who've usurped our media, our politics AND our global economy -- to commit their obscene wealth to this clean-up effort. I want our children to have a fighting chance to recover our ecosystem. I don't want to ignore the consequences of our collective hubris.

[jeff47]

51. Yes, fearmongering.

I want our children to have a fighting chance to recover our ecosystem.

There is nowhere near enough material in the entire Fukushima complex to harm our ecosystem.

Grind up every single ounce of radioactive material at Fukushima, and dump it in the Pacific ocean. What do you get? 1 atom per cubic mile of ocean.

That's nowhere near enough material to damage "our ecosystem".

Fukushima is a terrible, local disaster. It is very bad for that part of Japan. But there simply isn't enough radioactive material to make it a global disaster.

But there is plenty of radioactive material to fearmonger your way into a living via books and Internet sites.

[chervilant]

58. Well, jeff47,

pray tell: where did you earn your degree in nuclear physics? What know you of plutonium? Why are you so BENT on minimizing the crisis at Fukushima!?!

[jeff47]

62. You don't need a degree in nuclear physics to do basic chemistry.

Uranium (the actual fuel in the reactor) has a nicely published atomic weight. From there, you can calculate how many atoms are in the reactor. Google will give you the volume of the pacific.

Why are you so BENT on minimizing the crisis at Fukushima!?!

Because there are so many people so BENT on claiming it's a global catastrophe.

I have a strong reality bias.

[chervilant]

71. oic

So, you think you're the expert about Fukushima?

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

And, Google is the resource you recommend?

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

You're such a funny guy, jeff47!

[jeff47]

97. Ah yes, when you can't come up with anything else,

attempting to mock is surely the best way to make an argument.

[chervilant]

100. I am not arguing with you, jeff47.

I am not mocking you, either. I find it genuinely amusing that so many get online and post their opinions based on little more than personal 'feelings' about the issue at hand.

I've done copious amounts of research, probably since before you were born--as I've been an anti-nuke activist since I was 17. Now that Chernobyl and Fukushima have made many more of us aware of the dangers of nuclear energy, I hope to see our species invest more time and resources in renewable, green energy.

I am impressed that you've demonstrated awareness of scientific notation. I've taught higher level math for some time, and I find that some students get rather lost with exponents and 'large' numbers.

[spanone]

32. k&r...

[rhett o rick]

33. Here is the link to the article.

http://drsircus.com/world-news/no-one-is-watching

It should be pointed out that the article has links to respected sites.

While the sircus site may be suspect, the article appears to be legitimate. Will welcome arguments.

[SidDithers]

36. The article is conspiracist nonsense...

with bits and pieces of fact thrown in for cover.

Glad to see GD Hosts doing their job and ignoring the SOP again. Hosts apparently think drsircus.com is an appropriate source for GD, even when the OP "accidentally" leaves it out.

Sid

[rhett o rick]

38. I am surprised that a "politically liberal" person like yourself doesnt recognize that

there can be differences of opinions. I read the article and the sources for the article and it sounds reasonable to me.

I am disappointed that you feel the need to denigrate hosts just because they dont do what you say. Your ridicule and attempts at bullying are inappropriate. "Glad to see GD Hosts doing their job and ignoring the SOP again." Please.

Why dont you trash threads that you think are CT instead of insisting they be locked so others cant see them?

[jeff47]

46. There can be "Differences of opinions". Not differences of facts.

This article is trying to sell facts that are utterly wrong. But they "sound reasonable".

The government shutdown "sounds reasonable" to teabaggers. They've been told "facts" that are utterly wrong.

[rhett o rick]

49. So you say there are facts in the article that are wrong. And not just your opinion but

facts that you can prove wrong. That's always fair. But Sid didnt present any facts. I will not swear that all the facts presented in the article are true. But after reading the article and it's referenced articles, it looks legitimate to me. If you or Sid have evidence that the article is pushing facts that are not true, then please present them. If true, I will gladly change my mind.

I hope you arent comparing me to "teabaggers".

[jeff47]

52. Do a little math.

Google the volume of the Pacific ocean.

Google the quantity of radioactive material at Fukushima.

Divide the latter by the former. You get a little less than 1 atom per cubic mile of ocean.

There's already more than 1 radioactive atom per cubic mile in the Pacific ocean. There has been for millennia. Are we dead yet?

No?

Well, these folks are claiming that we must already be dead. Dispersing all of the contents of all four reactors is a much, much worse distribution of material than what they are claiming may happen if there is a screw up when they move this reactor core.

Gonna claim that the concentrated material would be the problem? Well, if it's concentrated, it can't be global.

Fukushima is a terrible disaster for Japan. It's a huge local problem. But it can not become a global catastrophe because there simply isn't enough material there.

[rhett o rick]

56. I think that's called the "new math". Do you have any respected source for this

theory? There are no conceivable scenarios that would distribute particles as small as atoms evenly over the entire volume of the Pacific Ocean. There are good articles that explain the higher risks. The fuel rods may get hot enough to burn and even explode. Such a fire or explosion would spread deadly amounts of contaminated fuel and dirt and be very deadly for Japan and surrounding areas. That would constitute a disaster of a high magnitude.

[jeff47]

59. The entire point is distributing it down to single atoms is distributing it as wide as possible.

For it to be a global disaster, it has to be spread as wide as possible.

That would constitute a disaster of a high magnitude.

For Japan.

The people in the OP, and the other people being quoted in this thread, are claiming it would be a global disaster. They are literally claiming the northern hemisphere would be uninhabitable.

[Gravitycollapse]

66. WRONG. Holy shit, WRONG. You are off by such a large margin that I cannot fathom...

how someone educated in simple mathematics could make such a mistake.

[SidDithers]

75. I'm not surprised that you, a GD Host, is once again ignoring the "no conspiracy theories"...

part of the GD SOP.

Why don't you lock CT threads instead of ignoring the GD SOP?

Sid

[rhett o rick]

86. Do you disparage all GD hosts? You do realize that the other hosts

also have a voice in the decisions. And on occasion we have been overruled by the Admins that also have a say. I think the hosts do a great job, especially considering what they have to put up with.

As a host it is my job to review alerted posts to determine if they violate the SoP. I do such as honestly as I can. But it seems that you view decisions that differ from yours as “ignoring the GD SOP.” I would hope you would recognize that some interpretations are subjective.

You and I have a different definition of what CT is. I am more liberal with my definition when the event is recent and we aren’t sure what the facts are. I think skeptical speculation is not only ok, but I think is healthy in an open-minded “politically liberal” DU. I believe in erroring on the side of allowing issues to be discussed in lieu of being locked or banned. I have faith that DU posters can make their own decisions as to the value of the article. And those that disagree are free to post such or even trash the thread if they think it’s warranted.

It’s my opinion that this article doesn’t include any conspiracies. If I am wrong, please point them out. This article includes a lot of facts that are backed up by other linked articles. The article may be a bit hyperbolic but that in itself isn’t reason to lock, in my opinion.

I hope you could agree that there is a huge problem at Fukushima and no one is sure what the possible consequences are. This is from the Japan Times,

"And if something does go wrong, the consequences could be far more severe than any nuclear accident the world has ever seen. If a fuel rod is dropped, breaks or becomes entangled while being removed, possible worst case scenarios include a big explosion, a meltdown in the pool, or a large fire. Any of these situations could lead to massive releases of deadly radionuclides into the atmosphere, putting much of Japan — including Tokyo and Yokohama — and even neighboring countries at serious risk."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/08/29/commentary/government-must-take-over-fukushima-nuclear-cleanup/#.UlrpORDZiEz

If you have a source that disagrees with this risk, I would honestly like to read it. I am only seeking the truth.

[SidDithers]

89. Absolutely...

I think GD Hosts as a group have a blind spot with regard to CT and woo sourcing and almost without fail, will ignore the "no conspiracy theories" part of the GD SOP.

Sid

[rhett o rick]

92. And so far the "blind spot" as you call it, hasnt brought DU to it's knees.

IMO hosts try to error on the side of not censoring, not locking.

IMO some alerts for CT are done so to censor posts with opposing world views. For example, if one speculated that Michael Hastings was doing drugs and alcohol on the night of his crash, I doubt that anyone would alert for CT. However, if someone speculated that his car was tampered with, you can bet there would be a handful of alerts. And again, the posts that tried to speculate that Snowden worked for the Russians or Chinese were not alerted (that I know of) on while clearly conspiracy speculation.

The GD hosts do a good job.

[SidDithers]

93. WRT conspiracy theories, they don't...nt

Sid

[greytdemocrat]

65. Some things...

Never change.

[PCIntern]

39. That is the equivalent of eating three bananas a day, right?

Recall the post-accident posters here.

This is a nightmare in process.

[jeff47]

44. This is pure bullshit designed to freak out people who can't do math.

Let's take all 4 reactors from Fukushima, grind them up into a fine powder, and spread them over the Pacific ocean. The absolute worst possible turn of events, right? Every single bit of radioactive material, dumped over as large an area as possible.

The disaster this bullshit article trying to freak you out about, times 4.

What happens?

Nothing.

The Pacific ocean is really that big. If you ground up the reactors and spread them over the Pacific, you get 1 radioactive atom per cubic mile of ocean. Yes, cubic mile. One atom. In other words, you get an effect that that is below background radiation.

Now, Fukushima is a disaster locally - it's really bad for that part of Japan. But it is physically impossible for Fukushima to be a global disaster.

But you can sell a lot of crap by scaring people that it is. Like tons and tons of coal and oil burned in power plants because anti-nuke bullshit artists like this have been operating for a very long time.

I look forward to someone posting the tsunami propagation map again, claiming it's radioactivity instead.

[rhett o rick]

55. Your speculation is very interesting. Do you have any articles backing up your theory?

If not why would we believe this speculation? Do you have a nuclear engineering background?

It looks like you havent read the articles of this Op. Grinding up the power plants and spreading the results over the ocean isnt even a remote possibility. What is possible is that the spent fuel rods that are extremely radioactive may over heat and catch fire. The resulting smoke getting into the atmosphere would be a disaster at least for Japan. If the rods arent continually cooled they could get hot enough to literally burn thru their containment pools and the ground underneath and possibly sink into the ground water.

Once again, please show us an article or two that says that the clean up at Fukushima isnt extremely dangerous.

[jeff47]

61. Why do I need an article? You can do the math yourself.

1 mole (6.022 x 10^23 atoms) of Uranium weighs about 238 grams. You can use that to calculate the number of atoms in the reactors.

You can Google the volume of the pacific ocean.

Simple division gets the result.

Once again, please show us an article or two that says that the clean up at Fukushima isnt extremely dangerous.

That is not a claim I am making. Nor is it the claim the OP and others in this thread are making.

They are claiming Fukushima threatens the entire globe, or at least the northern hemisphere. I'm saying that's bullshit.

[rhett o rick]

67. So trash the thread and let the rest of us discuss it. Why is it so important for YOU to lock the

thread?? Why do YOU think you need to save us? Is it the power of censorship? You think you get to decide what the rest of us read? If you dont like it, trash it.

[Logical]

76. Because posting made up shit on here when some believe it is wrong! BS is BS. Woo Woo science! nt

[rhett o rick]

77. I agree. If there is made up shit, it should be exposed. But dont you agree

that if someone thinks an article has made up shit, they should prove it? I am sure a jury would rule favorably if shown that a post included made up shit.

[Logical]

82. The drama is over the top. Like the "deadly radioactive tuna" shit a few days ago. n-t

[rhett o rick]

84. Then trash the thread and move on. nm

[Logical]

85. How about I do what I want, and you can ignore it?? LOL

[Gravitycollapse]

57. "Yes, cubic mile." - That's the dumbest thing anyone has said on this topic ever, ever.

Consider, for instance, that each ton of heavy metal has about 2 x 10^27 atoms in it.

Now consider that the whole of the Pacific ocean is 714 million cubic kilometers

That comes out to roughly 2.8 x 10^18 atoms per cubic kilometer for every ton of heavy metal. Now, if we consider that only about 3% of the fuel assemblies are made up of radioactive material, that still equates to 8.4 x 10^16 radioactive atoms per cubic kilometer for every 1 ton of fuel assembly. And that's assuming a perfectly even distribution. Which we all know would never happen.

Think before you math.

[jeff47]

60. Might wanna go back to chemistry class.

The molecular weight of Uranium is 238.02891. We'll round to 238.

One mole (6.022 x 10^23 atoms) weighs 238 grams.

You are claiming that that 238 grams is 1/1000'th of a ton. That's a tad off.

Think before you math.

Talking to a mirror?

[Gravitycollapse]

64. Not a math major, eh?

There are 907,185 grams in a short ton. Divide that by 238 and you get 3811. Multiply 6.022 x 10^23 by 3811 and you get....

Survey says!!!...

2.29 x 10^27. A very close measure to my approximation of 2 x 10^27.


Are you finished? Is that all? Or would you like to explain how only 1 atom of a radioactive isotope would be in one cubic mile of ocean?

[chervilant]

70. Not an "anything" major...

Apparently, though, he has a "strong reality bias."

[Gravitycollapse]

95. The silence is certainly deafening.

[jeff47]

98. So you stay with metric up until you decide not to,

and then don't tell anyone when you've switched to imperial. Good to know.

Btw, how long are you going to claim the reactors are 100% uranium? Just figure we should work that out in advance since you're having trouble being consistent with units.

[Gravitycollapse]

102. Anybody with basic math skills should know how to convert back and forth.

Right, right, attack my approximations. For approximate calculations, it doesn't matter whether we use plutonium or uranium or their isotopes. They all weigh roughly the same.

But the bottom line is this, your claim that only 1 radioactive atom will exist per cubic mile of ocean is complete and utter bullshit.

Do you understand how many orders of magnitude you were off by? Don't dodge the question. Tell me you understand how wrong you are instead of complaining that you object to unit conversions.

[Logical]

50. Total and compete BS. Why does the DU have so much of this shit? Deadly Radioactive Tuna yesterday!

[Union Scribe]

69. Because unscientific fearmongering

is not solely a right wing problem. Making matters worse, the word radiation is one of those bells that makes otherwise reasonable people lose their perspective.

[rhett o rick]

87. If this is truly fearmongering then there should be articles available to dispel the message.

It would be good to see such articles.

I hope you could agree that there is a huge problem at Fukushima and no one is sure what the possible consequences are.

This is from the Japan Times,

"And if something does go wrong, the consequences could be far more severe than any nuclear accident the world has ever seen. If a fuel rod is dropped, breaks or becomes entangled while being removed, possible worst case scenarios include a big explosion, a meltdown in the pool, or a large fire. Any of these situations could lead to massive releases of deadly radionuclides into the atmosphere, putting much of Japan — including Tokyo and Yokohama — and even neighboring countries at serious risk."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/08/29/commentary/government-must-take-over-fukushima-nuclear-cleanup/#.UlrpORDZiEz

If you have a source that disagrees with this risk, I would honestly like to read it. I am only seeking the truth.

[rhett o rick]

78. So you claim that there are no facts in the article "Total and complete BS"? What do you base that

on? The New York Times thinks it's serious,

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/04/world/asia/errors-cast-doubt-on-japans-cleanup-of-nuclear-accident-site.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Logical]

80. Is is "The world's most dangerous moment is upon us" that is BS. And you know it! n-t

[rhett o rick]

83. I will agree that is a little hyperbolic. However, no one is claiming to know

what the actual danger is. It is clear there is a huge problem at Fukushima. Tons of spent fuel are in danger of overheating and are not stable where they are located. The question is how big a danger is there in trying to move them.

[melody]

53. Gee, thanks. As if we're all not terrified enough?

Americans will all be dead by mass insurrection. Let the rest of the planet worry about it.

[Gravitycollapse]

54. In order for the containment pools to be as dangerous as the OP claims, it would have to explode...

With an immense force. I'm not so certain such an explosion is possible in the current circumstance. The fuel is spent which means it is not as volatile as freshly enriched assemblies.

This isn't to diminish the danger of the spent fuel pools. It would certainly be a horrific disaster if, for instance, the pool was to collapse and/or a fire was to ensue.

But will there be one grand explosion? I highly doubt it.

[Demo_Chris]

63. The experts doing this are job are as aware of the risks as anyone can be...

These scientists and engineers will do their best to do the job as perfectly as humanly possible. What more is there to say?

[SlipperySlope]

72. Kind of puts the whole "debt ceiling" thing in perspective.

Sometimes when I think about the things we humans spend time squabbling over, and then when I think about what is really important, I am left to conclude that we are just an insane species. We have an amazing ability to ignore real problems and manufacturer replacement problems to think about instead.

[SidDithers]

74. And make sure you buy Dr. Sircus' e-books...

Magnesium – The Ultimate Heart Medicine
E-Book
Regular Price: $49.90
Special Price: $29.90

The Changing Landscape of Cancer
E-Book
Regular Price: $15.50
Special Price: $9.99

Winning the War on Cancer
E-Book
Regular Price: $79.90
Special Price: $39.90

The Terror of Pediatric Medicine E-Book:
Free E-Book
Written by Mark Sircus, AC., OMD
By the time you reach the final page you will understand its title and the fact that pediatric medicine is one of the worst things that ever happened to the world of babies and young children.

The author of the article in the OP is a fucking clown on par with Alex Jones and Mike Adams.

Sid

[Liberal_in_LA]

94. whoa, let's cross our fingers

[nolabels]

99. Where are all those great Reagan Republicans who were proclaiming nuclear energy as safe and cheap?