Snowden has publicly claimed he will be tortured or killed. Holder has assured Russia he won't

[Recursion]

Apparently somewhere in there it's Holder who's in the wrong. Maybe this is case in point of why you shouldn't respond to crazy.

[Vinnie From Indy]

1. Speaking of crazy, it will be fun to see how many respond to your OP

Cheers!

[warrant46]

29. Holder won't ?

Wow

[Cleita]

2. Our government since 2001 has not been very above board and transparent.

I actually don't believe them.

[Recursion]

3. And I think that's crazy

Snowden will not be tortured or executed by the US, period. I know that's disappointing to some people who want their martyr-hero, but the banality of reality is usually disappointing...

[Cleita]

5. You can see the future?

He will be disappeared the moment no one is looking and is concentrating on the next new shiny object.

[Recursion]

9. No, he really won't

And seeing the paranoia I usually associate with the Right on this board is really troubling.

[Cleita]

16. Here's the difference. Paranoia is about fear of something that doesn't exist, like we are suddenly

going to get sharia law. Not believing lies because we have been lied to before, over and over creates distrust. They will have to show, not tell.

[FirstLight]

19. +100

yep, that's my first thought. They don't have to do the nasty stuff in the open ...it can be done nice and quiet-like

[Fire Walk With Me]

43. Please to read:

Many have never heard of these programs; the sort of people who trust states with secret authority tend not to know what such things have led to in the recent past. Those who do know of such things may perhaps contend that these practices would never be repeated today. But it was just two years ago that the late Michael Hastings revealed that US army officials in Afghanistan were conducting psy-ops against visiting US senators in order to sway them towards continued funding for that unsuccessful war. If military and intelligence officials have so little respect for the civilian leadership, one can guess how they feel about mere civilians.

Not that anyone need merely guess. Discussing the desirability of such "information operations" in his 2001 book, retired USAF Lt Col George Crawford noted that voters tend to view these sorts of programs with suspicion. "Consequently," he concludes, "these efforts must take place away from public eyes."

And so they do. If we want to learn a thing or two about the latest round of such programs – that is, if we are willing to disregard the Thomas Friedmans of this world – we must look not just towards the three letter agencies that have routinely betrayed us in the past, but also to the untold number of private intelligence contracting firms that have sprung up lately in order to betray us in a more efficient and market-oriented manner. Our lieutenant colonel, scourge of "public eyes", is among the many ex-military and intelligence officials who have left public service, or public obfuscation – or whatever we're calling it now – to work in the expanding sphere of private spookery, to which is outsourced information operations by the Pentagon, spy agencies, and even other corporations who need an edge over some enemy (in Crawford's case, the mysterious Archimedes Global).

So, how trustworthy is this privatized segment of the invisible empire? We would know almost nothing of their operations were it not for a chance turn of events that prompted Anonymous-affiliated hackers to seize 70,000 emails from one typical firm back in early 2011. From this more-or-less random sampling of contractor activity, we find a consortium of these firms plotting to intimidate, attack and discredit WikiLeaks and those identified as its key supporters, including the (then Salon, now Guardian) journalist Glenn Greenwald – a potentially illegal conspiracy concocted on behalf of corporate giant Bank of America, which feared exposure by WikiLeaks, and organized under the auspices of the Department of Justice itself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/cyber-intelligence-complex-useful-idiots

[Recursion]

44. Did you mean to reply to my post?

What does that have to do with the treatment of people in Federal courts?

[Fire Walk With Me]

49. Just read the information and if you're open-minded, the rest of the article at the link.

You'll get it if you do. And thanks for implying that I am too stupid to know where I am posting. That's twice in perhaps as many minutes that you've called me names. Good work representing the best the democratic party can produce. Your OP is only opinion the trends roundly counter.

[Recursion]

50. I've read it several times this month. Please elaborate

I don't see anything in that about people standing trial in Federal court

[Fire Walk With Me]

53. Most obviously, you haven't. Giving up as those who reject facts high-five. n/t

[Recursion]

54. Glad to know you can't back up your claim

[Fire Walk With Me]

62. You're going on Ignore because your "communication" style IS recursion. Nothing you do not want

to hear, do you hear. Congratulations on representing the democratic party, home of those who cannot and will not listen. Looking great in 2016, lemme tell you.

[Thinkingabout]

63. Having personally serve on a jury for a federal trial I know they have trials in federal courts.

[reusrename]

65. Do you think he would be free to speak to the public?

Or do you think he would be gagged?

Serious question.

[Recursion]

71. He would face criminal penalties for disclosing classified info

But that's true of anybody. I'm not sure what you mean; the government can't keep people from releasing statements.

[reusrename]

77. I guess you don't know what a gag order is.

Or who Sibel Edmonds is.

This is interesting.

A lot of people don't understand that we hold prisoners incommunicado.

General Noriega also comes to mind here.

Very interesting post.

[Recursion]

93. I do know what gag orders are and who Sibel Edmonds is

Sibel Edmonds has released all kinds of statements.

[reusrename]

94. Why are you being so cute about this?

Do you think Snowden would be allowed to continue to speak out if he came to the US?

Do think this is an important question?

Do you think it matters?

[Recursion]

95. Edmonds is still allowed to speak out. For that matter she told everything to the press years ago

Yes, Snowden will still be allowed to make statements.

[HardTimes99]

66. If Bush and Cheney were put on trial, I might believe you. Otherwise, your mere assertion

does not make it so.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Nor has it been too civilized to torture and assassinate non-combatants.

[Cleita]

6. The history is there and cannot be denied. eom

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Hell, it's not even "history". The force feeding and drone wars continue.

[Cleita]

12. Yes it's very much the present.

[99Forever]

7. Funny that.

Seems that when top government officials have been caught lying time after time, and letting the real thieving thugs and murdering scum not just to remain free from prosecution, but enable them to get rich beyond imagination, people don't believe your lying fucking bullshit anymore.

Now get busy, there's plenty of boots to lick.

[JaneyVee]

8. There's no way he's getting executed or tortured. Besides, the media will be

On top of this story every step of the way.

[Cleita]

11. Until they are no longer interested and looking at something else.eom

[KharmaTrain]

18. Then The Blame Is With Snowden's Attorneys...

...it appears to be Bruce Fein...noted Libertarian laywer...who surely can walk into Faux Noise any time he wants if it is to bash President Obama and Holder and there's sure to be heavy scrutiny by lots of other sources. Fein is no shy violet is the kind of lawyer who can and will put the NSA and the Patriot Act on trial...something I very much would like to see. It would also validate if Snowden was telling the truth about what he's exposed so far and prove his critics wrong. In short, he could be a Daniel Elsberg...he can't do that hiding in the Moscow airport...or in Venezuela or wherever he wants to run and hide.

[Thinkingabout]

36. I have thought for a while now there was a relationship somehow with libertarians, probably will

Become more apparent. Talking about being transparent, it is time to get to the puppet masters.

[KharmaTrain]

55. A Bigger Irony...

...is how those who consider Snowden or Assange as some great hero/whistleblower are just fine when these folks say they're withholding information or have even more damaging info; like hanging a sword over people's heads (not to mention blackmail). If they're all for transparency then why haven't we seen more of what Snowden has gathered or of various other great exposures Wikileaks have teased about and somehow have fallen down the rabbit hole. Transparency goes two ways...and you can't demand accountability if you are trying to manipulate the flow of information...

Cheers...

[Thinkingabout]

58. Good thoughts, perhaps all the Snowden fans should show transparency.

[KharmaTrain]

61. An Exercise In Futility...

...the second you dare to bring out these facts you're chastised as being Chenney's evil twin. I'm all for investigating what's going on with the NSA and how the Patriot Act and FISA laws have been abused...a commission similar to the Church commission of the 70s and I could see a Senator Udall or Wyden at the helm of that investigation...

Cheers...

[Thinkingabout]

64. I am all for investigating the crimes Snowden has committed, whether or not he acted alone or is

He a patsy of an "cause". You want transparency, then Snowden should be transparent and along with his fans. Now Snowden is one of Cheney followers, taking the path Cheney has followed many times.

[KharmaTrain]

68. I Want Justice...

...and, yes, if Snowden stole confidential information he should stand trial for it. However, if he feels he was justified in doing so, a trial would give him the platform to expose what he knows and how the 4th Amendment or other laws have been violated. From all I've read he hasn't really revealed anything that isn't already known (seems lots of people were elsewhere when the FISA bill was debated...for naught...in 2007 & 2008) along with a lot of unsubstantiated claims. I'm willing to hear what he has to say and if that means putting the entire intelligence apparatus under a national microscope. Right now he's doing no one favors...especially himself...as wherever he hides he'll constantly have to look over his shoulder and the "cause" he says he stands for will fade away...

[RobertEarl]

82. A trial?

Where is Holder's letter saying he'd get a fair trial and bail? Snowden would have to see that before he offers himself to the hangman.

Snowden is doing himself a favor. It is mighty presumptuous of you to say he isn't. And downright kinda, well, dumb.

Right now, his "cause" is doing great. Didn't you see the vote on limiting spying? He must be very encouraged.

And he is still free. I bet he has plenty of girlfriends, too.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. Holder was wrong to absolve Bushco and expect to be treated as if Bush had

not happened. It is just sad to many of us that our country is now held in such distrust and low regard by others. When you torture then promote the torturers, others think you might also be a torturer, no matter what you say. It is shameful.

[truedelphi]

74. Holder legally represented some in the Death Squad

Apparatus of one of South or Central America's nations .

So I guess I would not be able to trust him too much.

[quinnox]

14. uh huh. And who is to say Snowden wouldn't end up "suicided" in his jail cell

It would not surprise me, let's put it that way. How convenient it would be.

[Downwinder]

22. Can always give him a new Mercedes and run him into a tree.

[Fumesucker]

15. The US government had no problem torturing once and no torturers have bee prosecuted

Unfortunately actions speak louder than words, as long as torturers are walking around unpunished then any renouncement of torture rings more than a little hollow.

Just like what Snowden did, torture is a crime and has hurt our nation immensely. Why do you get so exercised about Snowden but seem to be ok with Holder giving torturers a pass?

[Recursion]

17. Did the new talking point just come out? This is now about not prosecuting Cheney?

We're getting kind of far afield here, in that case.

[Fumesucker]

21. Yoo didn't answer my question

Holder is giving torturers a pass, they greatly damaged America, far more than Snowden ever will.

And yet Holder sees fit to just ignore their crime.

And then smoothly assures Russia of all nations that America does not torture.

Why does Snowden's damage to America exercise you so and Holder giving Cheney a reacharound OK with you?

[Recursion]

24. I could care less about Snowden; I have said multiple times I hope he quietly gets asylum somewhere

Because the last thing I want the Paulites et al to have is a jailed martyr to fantasize about.

I just don't see what the decision 4 years ago to avoid a politically damaging prosecution that would almost certainly not work has to do with this.

The world is a shitty place and bad people get away with bad things all the time. People know this.

[Fumesucker]

25. Laws are meaningless unless some effort, however slight, is made to enforce them

It's quite clear which laws are deemed worthy of being enforced by the powers that be in the Yoo Ess of Eh.

[FirstLight]

47. AYFKM?

"The world is a shitty place and bad people get away with bad things all the time. People know this."


well isn't THAT a convenient way to disregard it all? IF the Administration and Holder had chosen to uphold the Constitution, then they would have made damn well and sure that those responsible for Gitmo and worse were DONE and hung out to dry. Instead, the cronies look out for one another, and we ALL end up losing our liberties because of it. Bradley Manning is just one cautionary tale, so is that reporter who recently died conveniently in a car crash... The US Govt knows who it's enemies are, and it is US.

[FirstLight]

23. totally!

you know, we should have known things regarding the 'war on terror' (against US citizens) would not change when Obama gave the Bushies a free pass, kept many of them on in highly sensitive areas of govt, kept Gitmo open, used drones on US soil, etc...

I am over it. Dem or Rethug, they are all "Party Members" in my book now. they all have their hand in each other's pockets, the corporations own them and they do what they are told...we ARE living in 1984. War is Peace.

[Cleita]

28. +1000

[Cha]

20. Russia is Good, St snowden says so. "Bad USA

Bad Pres Obama"

I say Good on AG Holder.. poor little martyr snowedem

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

26. K&R. Best of luck to you. They really come out of the woodwork when a thread like this is started.

And by woodwork, I mean Woodwork Mental Institute.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. This is hilarious

Snowden says he will be tortured and killed.....Holder says he won't be and it's downright "chilling" and "surreal".

Of course if Holder didn't rule out execution and torture, that too would be downright chilling and surreal.

I mean....wtf.

[davidn3600]

30. The problem isn't Holder. It's our reputation.

We are viewed as the biggest bully on the playground.

[bunnies]

79. We ARE the biggest bully on the playground.

But Snowden is so high-profile...

[RobertEarl]

87. Well

We invaded two countries.

Set up Gitmo.

Tortured more than a few people.

Yep, we sure are.

[treestar]

31. Holder must be the one in the wrong!!!!!!11

He works for the evul US government!!!!!!!111111111

He's a tool of Cheney for not prosecuting him!!!!! until Cheney is prosecuted we can all violate whatever laws we want!!!!11 And that goes for the banksters and the corporatists too!



Don't you know that by now!!!!!!??????1111111

We should be marching in the streets! Or seeking asylum in that land of the free, Russia!!!

It is run by a real man.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Whisp]

69. it's torture to see Putin try to show off his manliness...

put your clothes on, ugh.

[LittleBlue]

32. Depends what you mean by torture.

The gov doesn't see life in solitary confinement and sleep deprivation as torture. There are no repercussions for torturing anyway, as our government doesn't prosecute those who tortured.

So no, I wouldn't trust Holder.

It's not a matter of who is in the wrong. It's an issue of trust, and I don't think anyone with a brain trusts the government on these issues.

[FirstLight]

52. +1000 nt

[BeyondGeography]

33. When the worst about America isn't true

It comes as a perverse sort of disappointment to many here.

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. And the US Navy claimed to have been fired upon by the Vietnamese Navy...

LBJ used that to start the Vietnam war.

Nope...

Don't Stop... Believin'.... I believe that's a song by Journey.

[TheProgressive]

35. Holder may have said that, but...

..all President Obama has to do is order his execution...

Right? America doesn't abide by the US Constitution anymore. And Americans don't give a damn...

[Recursion]

37. Both Obama and Holder have said that order would be illegal unless he were actively in arms...

... and unreachable by US law enforcement. Rand Paul requested a direct answer on that and Holder supplied it.

They've been very clear about that.

[TheProgressive]

39. Obama has claimed the right to kill anybody anytime for reasons he deems...

I guess he can change his mind from 'live to kill' anytime he deems...

right?

[Recursion]

40. Wrong. Rand Paul asked and Holder answered

He has claimed the right to use military force against persons in arms against the US pursuant to the 2001 AUMF. That is not "anybody anytime"

Rand Paul asked if Obama claimed the right to kill anyone at any time and Holder sent back a one-word memo: "No".

[Progressive dog]

38. Denying it is all the proof needed that it must be true,

at least if it's the US government, led by a President who ended torture.
Might be it's just that Snowden's claims must be true because Glenn and friends echo them.

[Fire Walk With Me]

41. Three years of solitary confinement for PFC Manning before a hint of a trial.

Despite human rights organizations making complaints and demands. To the US, that is not torture.

Obama signed the NDAA section 1021 which provides for the indefinite detention of US citizens with neither trial nor representation.

So they can stuff Snowden in a box for the rest of his life and say it's perfectly legal, which by their legislation and interpretation, it is.

The US also said they wouldn't scramble fighters to get a 29-year-old hacker, then force down the plane of another country's president for 12 hours, hoping to find Snowden on board. Obama said he'd protect whistle-blowers then arrested them all. Obama said "violence against peaceful protesters is unacceptable" in regard to the early Egyptian uprising, then sends militarized police to beat and arrest 7400+ Occupiers who were trying to draw attention to terrible economic injustice. Obama has since continued bail-outs to wall street and the big corporations and the DOJ calls the banks too big to jail. Then Obama appoints billionaire worker's rights offender Penny Pritzker to a government post. And starts talking about Summers, a Wall Street de-regulator, to head the Fed (which printed trillions of dollars for banks which we'll never ever again see, all the while forcing "sequestration" upon the little people because there's no money). Then Obama says he's just like Trayvon Martin the same week praises the unConstitutional racist Ray Kelly as being viable for secretary of DHS (where he'd bring "stop and frisk", which stops 85% black and brown people, everywhere). And Obama has done nothing to wind down or eliminate GEORGE BUSH'S surveillance state. On the contrary, he forced down a sovereign nation's president's plane looking for him, an international incident.

SURE, the US won't do that bad bad thing it's been doing since Bush. SURE, they don't care about Snowden. Said the fucking spider to the fly.

What the fuck has happened to my country?

[Recursion]

42. The judge agreed it was too restrictive, and he has been in GP for years

But the judge also said it wasn't torture. And he wasn't in solitary for 3 years. And if solitary confinement is torture, every single country in the world tortures.

So, there's that.

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. Careful. That really really sounds like tacit approval. But wait, there's more!

Obama said "transparency and the rule of law will the the touchstones of this administration."

And

Extra-judicial executions of US citizens suspected of terror or terrorist ties! Fuck the rule of law or telling people about his kill lists. Oops, kill lists, another reason to trust our executioner in chief.

When they say they won't torture him, they mean we're planning to torture him.

[Fire Walk With Me]

48. Paulbot? You're a jerk to get personal. Can't address a single issue I've presented? Call names.

If anyone ever wonders what is driving people away from the democratic party, it would be attitudes and actions such as yours. Why would anyone want to hang out with people who call names and mock when presented with superior data?

[Recursion]

60. Sorry. I was out of line.

Long day.

[FirstLight]

56. EXACTLY!!!

THIS should be it's own OP... because they nullified all the rules and eroded our freedoms very easily and quietly, dismantled them bit by bit...so now ANYONE can vanish down the memory hole, and....look! over there!....something new and shiny!

and it will happen again & again... even more so when we have a rethug pres (and it is bound to happen) anyone who dissents or whistleblows...
did you see this article? someone posted a link i think on another thread:[link: http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/edward-snowden-bradley-manning-and-the-war-whistleblowers-223545?page=0,1|
Those who manage the agencies got off scott free, while the whistleblowers get hung out to dry]

all the pieces of the game have been put into place, legally, we no longer have a Bill of Rights,really...it's just a farce

[msanthrope]

109. That is utterly wrong--he was in Quantico for 8 months. Quantico is single-cell, only. He was then

moved to pre-trial medium security in a pod setting at Leavenworth.***

The judge did give him time off for overly-restrictive confinement terms at Quantico. (POI should have been lifted earlier.) But to characterize that as 'solitary confinement' is incorrect.


***Once he was at Leavenworth, it was in his best interests to delay trial, and he did, for over two years. Post-conviction, he will be in maximum security. Frankly, it would not surprise me if he asks for segregated custody.

[Thinkingabout]

51. Just another lie by the Lie and Spy Snowden, we have already established he lies on regular basis.

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. as long as there is a promise of no torture or death penalty I cannot imagine why ANYONE would

object to spending several decades in prison.

[backscatter712]

59. Our country shouldn't have to make assurances. It should be assumed.

But because of a long chain of incidents from Abu Ghraib to Gitmo to Bradley Manning's supermaxing, nobody trusts the U.S. not to torture anymore. And Holder's assurances aren't worth much either in my eyes.

[baldguy]

67. Can people who believe the shit like this that spews from that Snowden douchebag

Really be considered Democrats? They act like having American Citizens tortured & assassinated is Obama's every day SOP for everything. That kind of slander originates from the worst of the racist Tea Baggers & Alex Jones-level CT lunatics. It should stay there.

[quakerboy]

70. Does Holder admit that waterboarding is torture, and that the US has tortured other captives?

As long as our position is that the things we have already done to others are not torture and the people who ordered and did it are not eligible to be prosecuted, saying that we wont torture someone just means that we won't torture him any more than we have tortured previous captives.

[truedelphi]

76. Eric Holder - Death Squad defender -

Eric Holder: death-squad defender
Submitted by WW4 Report on Thu, 11/20/2008 - 02:34

Andean Theater

The New York Times reports Nov. 19 2008: "President-elect Barack Obama's transition team has signaled to Eric H. Holder Jr., a senior official in the Justice Department in the Clinton administration, that he will be chosen as attorney general... Mr. Holder would be the first African-American to serve as the nation's top law enforcement official." Unfortunately, he would also be the first AG to have defended a multinational corporation in a lawsuit over collaboration with paramilitary death-squads—specifically Chiquita Brands in a case over its payments to the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC), a State Department-recognized "terrorist organization."

On Nov. 6—days before news of the unconfirmed appointment—Dan Kovalik writing for the Huffington Post noted recent recommendations from Human Rights Watch for the incoming administration's Justice Department to help dismantle Colombia's paramilitary networks. He finds:

Do not expect these recommendations to be carried forward if Eric Holder decides to forgo his lucrative corporate law practice at Covington & Burling and accept the U.S. Attorney General position for which many believe he is the top contendor. Eric Holder would have a troubling conflict of interest in carrying out this work in light of his current work as defense lawyer for Chiquita Brands international in a case in which Colombian plaintiffs seek damages for the murders carried out by the AUC paramilitaries - a designated terrorist organization. Chiquita has already admitted in a criminal case that it paid the AUC around $1.7 million in a 7-year period and that it further provided the AUC with a cache of machine guns as well.

Indeed, Holder himself, using his influence as former deputy attorney general under the Clinton Administration, helped to negotiate Chiquita's sweeheart deal with the Justice Department in the criminal case against Chiquita. Under this deal, no Chiquita official received any jail time. Indeed, the identity of the key officials involved in the assistance to the paramilitaries were kept under seal and confidential. In the end, Chiquita was fined a mere $25 million which it has been allowed to pay over a 5-year period. This is incredible given the havoc wreaked by Chiquita's aid to these Colombian death squards.

According to Mario Iguaran, the Attorney General of Colombia, Chiquita's payments to the AUC paramilitaries led to the murder of 4000 civilians in the banana region of Colombia and furthered the growth of the paramilitaries throughout Colombia and their violent takeover of numerous Colombian regions. Iguaran, in response to the claims of both Chiquita and Eric Holder himself that Chiquita was somehow forced to pay "protection" to the paramilitaries, ...stated unequivocally that "[t]his was not payment of extortion money. It was support for an illegal armed group whose methods included murder." See, Christian Science Monitor [April 11, 2007], "Chiquita Case Puts Big Firms on Notice."

[Historic NY]

72. I hope he gets a guarantee that Russia won't too...

once he is no longer a usefull tool.

[Iliyah]

73. Homewardbound with Greenwald

Yippee

[arely staircase]

75. he knows he won't be tortured

it is self-serving bullshit on his part to say so.

[bunnies]

78. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[RobertEarl]

80. If you were Snowden

You would have to ask yourself:

Has the US killed innocent people for national security?

Has the US tortured other for national security?

Has the US kept people in jail with no trial?


Heh,

[arely staircase]

81. I f I were Snowden

I'd be fucked.

[RobertEarl]

83. Eh?

Snowden knows he's in trouble. But his cause has already met with great success. The vote on limiting spying the other day must have been a great and wonderfully encouraging piece of news!! He is already a success!!

And he is still free. Bet he has some wonderful girlfriends and is having lots of Russian fun.

If he were back in the US without bail, he sure wouldn't.

He's pretty smart to be where he is.
And his cause is already showing success!!

[arely staircase]

84. a poem by: arely staircase

If I were Snowden

I'd be reading crime and punishment
with my kgb handler, excuse me "lawyer"

dreaming of ron paul
dreaming of rand

dreaming of china
and what could have been

dreaming of my daddy
and his libertarian attorneys
impeach all presidents!

greenwaild's pen
assange's alter!

[RobertEarl]

86. He doesn't have time to worry

The Russian ladies are all talking about him: The American Spy!!

Dinners, dancing. Vodka!! He's famous.

He probably wishes he had done this years ago.

But he probably would come back to the US in a NY second if he thought he could get a fair trial. But there are no promises. Not yet. Would you come back without a promise?

[arely staircase]

88. traitors

I have learned to hate all traitors, and there is no disease that I spit on more than treachery.
Aeschylus

[RobertEarl]

89. So you would just lynch?

No fair trial? Just arley-style justice?

Are you beyond discussing this in any reasonable manor already? Heck, it's just getting started and already you are spitting mad.

[arely staircase]

90. fools

The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Mark Twain

[RobertEarl]

92. Sounds like babbling

This is gonna be going on a long, long time. Are you sure you can take it?

[Bluenorthwest]

85. I'd just like to comment on the tone of this thread, which was

surly, sparkly, snarky and excessively personal. Plenty of emoticons and insults, par for the course.
I have a real thing about people who call names and question loyalties. That shit is instant disqualification. Those who engage in that crap need to understand that it is right wing in nature as well as in history and they should seriously rethink their methods. That shit does not fly among Democrats with brain cells and elders.

[Incitatus]

91. The US does not torture. They use "enhanced interrogation techniques".

[Recursion]

96. Not for several years now (nt)

[Corruption Inc]

97. Saying that torture doesn't occur is extremely disconnected from reality

Simply saying something does not make it true, there's a thing called "reality" that sane human beings are connected to. In reality, the U.S. does in fact have torture camps and tortures people.

That's not crazy, it's reality.

[Recursion]

100. Where is the US currently torturing people?

And no, feeding hunger strikers is not torture. Nor is solitary confinement. Every country in the world does both of those.

[former9thward]

106. The UN says Manning's treatment is at least near torture.

Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

Mendez, who runs the UN office that investigates incidents of alleged torture around the world, told the Guardian: "I conclude that the 11 months under conditions of solitary confinement (regardless of the name given to his regime by the prison authorities) constitutes at a minimum cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of article 16 of the convention against torture. If the effects in regards to pain and suffering inflicted on Manning were more severe, they could constitute torture."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

But I know, a U.S. judge who works for the CIC says it was ok.

[Recursion]

107. No judge said it was OK.

The judge ordered the solitary confinement to stop years ago.

[former9thward]

108. Years ago?

Usually when people say that it means at least 5 to 10 years. His solitary ended April 20, 2011. Two years ago.

Mendez told the Guardian that he could not reach a definitive conclusion on whether Manning had been tortured because he has consistently been denied permission by the US military to interview the prisoner under acceptable circumstances.

What are they hiding?

[Recursion]

110. Two years ago. That's "years".

Mendez told the Guardian that he could not reach a definitive conclusion on whether Manning had been tortured because he has consistently been denied permission by the US military to interview the prisoner under acceptable circumstances.

I'm angry that we don't give RC or UNHCHR unfettered access to Manning, but that same complaint applies to every prisoner in the US.

[Rex]

99. Killed no, tortured...oh yeah that will happen.

Just not in America.

[99th_Monkey]

101. Holder isn't to be believed

Holder has proven himself to be a useful tool of the 1%, reflecting their priorities, not
we the people's (99%)..

[Recursion]

102. And we're back in Paul land

[99th_Monkey]

103. I agree that it is ironic

that this great nation is in such desperate straights that it requires working with
the likes of Libertarians, with all their ideological faults, in order to get the job
done. No argument on that point.

[FirstLight]

104. you keep using that word...

I do not think it means what you think it means...

seriously, why is anyone who dissents our own govt's tactics over the past 10+ years, who doubts the 'pure intentions' of the current administration, who actually thinks Snowden was in the right ...why does that automatically make them a Libertarian or Paulbot or whatever the heck you are insinuating?

I have no real knowlege about Libertarianism, just cursory, and I am certainly not one who spouts Paul's talking points, I am simply a liberal who has come to the point of NOT trusting anyone in my govt as far as i could throw them...

[Recursion]

105. Anyone who axiomatically distrusts the government

is going to have a hard time being progressive.

Basically, if it's as bad as they hair on fire brigade thinks it is, then Ron Paul is right and we need to drown the government in the bathtub, and they certainly shouldn't get our medical records.

[customerserviceguy]

111. Putin will keep him as a bargaining chip

Sort of like we're doing with Pollard, in case we need something out of Israel.