Thu Jul 25, 2013, 06:36 PM

Is it a mistake to wait for jobs?

I think it's pretty safe to say a lot of corporations are not our friends. Employers and companies are not allies of their employees. They are largely exploiters. I'm sure a lot of the socialists (and even mixed economy advocates) among us will agree.

So I've been thinking maybe big industry abandoning Detroit was, maybe in a weird way, what was supposed to happen. Not in the sense that the people of Detroit or anywhere else deserve what happened there and what could happen elsewhere. But in the sense of why are we looking to our exploiters for our survival?

Doesn't the person who started the garden movement in Detroit have it right? Just give up on looking to our exploiters for help and subsistence and start taking care of ourselves? Start looking back to the earth? Isn't it the waiting for the help and the jobs that is the problem? While people wait aren't they wasting time that could be spent learning how to live for themselves?

Employment is a relatively new concept to humans. For hundreds of thousands of years before that, our relationship with subsistence was between us an the earth.

Aren't we prisoners of corrupt capitalists as long as we look to them for our survival instead of organizing and dealing with people and groups that already believe in a strongly regulated economic and social model?

Why don't we abandon the corrupt capitalists? They can't function without us and nothing really says we need them to survive.

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9 replies	Author	Time	Post
Is it a mistake to wait for jobs? (Original post)	Shankapotomus	Jul 2013	OP
You are talkling about 2 different things.	dixiegrrrrl	Jul 2013	#1
Thanks	Shankapotomus	Jul 2013	#2
We are not trained to live differently.	upaloopa	Jul 2013	#3
subsistence farming is a shitty way to go through life	Pretzel_Warrior	Jul 2013	#4
Our economic system isn't designed for a modern world where workers are needed less and less.	reformist2	Jul 2013	#5
Just yesterday I was thinking something similar	PowerToThePeople	Jul 2013	#6
We've all seen people drop out	Shankapotomus	Jul 2013	#7
the reason for the public works idea	PowerToThePeople	Jul 2013	#9
Before capitalism and the bourgeousie came land and nobility	FarCenter	Jul 2013	#8

Response to Shankapotomus (Original post)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 06:43 PM

dixiegrrrrl (60,005 posts)

1. You are talkling about 2 different things.

Jobs
and
the corrupt capitalists.

Yes, we do need a means to obtain the stuff we need, money seems the most acceptable way, and so we need a means of getitng either money or the value of money.
Bartering is one example of value with out monetary exchange,.

Now, do we need corrupt capitalists?
(or do they need us?)

Probably not, at this juncture, since they have moved on to fresher pickings in other coutnries to sell their stuff to.
Our value as a consumer society is decreasing, due to the fact most of us are earning much much less than we did 20 years ago.
Howard Kunstler explores a lot of options..google his ..ooops. I mean duck duck go his name for his blog/books.

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #1)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 06:51 PM

Shankapotomus (4,840 posts)

2. Thanks

Checking out his site now.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Original post)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 06:51 PM

upaloopa (11,417 posts)

3. We are not trained to live differently.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Original post)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 06:53 PM

Pretzel_Warrior (8,361 posts)

4. subsistence farming is a shitty way to go through life

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Response to Shankapotomus (Original post)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 07:05 PM

reformist2 (9,841 posts)

5. Our economic system isn't designed for a modern world where workers are needed less and less.

Even though our ability to provide for more and more people becomes easier and easier, people are finding it harder and harder to find jobs that will allow them to earn the money they need to buy these things that are not scarce, but readily available.

The situation is absurd.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Original post)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 07:14 PM

PowerToThePeople (9,610 posts)

6. Just yesterday I was thinking something similar

The chain that bind us to them is the US Dollar. The citizens of this country need to divorce themselves from it completely. They need to sell any stock that they may have in public corporations. They need to find another means of acquiring what they need for survival besides trading in the US dollar.

I was thinking that you could start with your local city or county. You could create a "public works" type of a system where a person can trade their labor to pay off public debt for Utilities and Property taxes. No dollars would be exchanged in this process. Nothing that could be save/traded/horded would exist in the process. All labor would be treated equally valuable. Municipalities would have much more labor and possibly be able to drop the use of private contractors for services. Citizens could possibly learn new, valuable skill sets.

Long term, there would need to be a way to acquire things currently made by the corporate world. Possibly the creation of citizen owned cooperatives that trade within this same system.

I know that this would likely end of evolving into a system similar to our current monetary system. The trick would be not allowing the "capital" to exist beyond the current need. it could not be horded for future use or to purchase more than your fair share.

More minds and stronger minds than mine would have to be involved with how to create such a system.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #6)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 07:47 PM

Shankapotomus (4,840 posts)

7. We've all seen people drop out

of the game all by themselves. People who decide to go nomad and live without money, for instance. Others who form small collectives is another.

I imagine if enough people refused to participate in the corrupt system individually, support groups would naturally materialize.

But the point is, some people can do it without organizing and without a support structure. If you can manage to free yourself on your own, any support organizations would just be icing but not necessarily needed.

Plus achieving separation from the system in some cases would be easier on an individual basis than a group because you wouldn't have to conform to any group structure but have the flexibility on your own to follow a plan suitable for you.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #7)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 07:55 PM

PowerToThePeople (9,610 posts)

9. the reason for the public works idea

Property taxes are not going away anytime soon.

If there was a way to trade labor for tax debt, groups of people could use their remaining "old capital" to get the startup land required for creation of the community. If the public-works system was in place, they could be assured that the state would not come in and take the land for unpaid taxes. It could be a self sustaining non-dollar-capital system fully existing in the capitalist state.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Original post)

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 07:52 PM

FarCenter (19,429 posts)

8. Before capitalism and the bourgeousie came land and nobility

The king owned all the land in the realm. The king could pass it all on to his son.

The king could grant the use of land to a noble. The noble could pass on the grant to his son.

The serfs worked the land for the nobility. The were allowed to keep a portion of the crops and livestock that they raised. The serf's son inherited his father's serfdom.

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