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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Constitution specifically allows for Congressional secrecy and military contractors
Article I, Section 5:
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.
Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.
Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.
Doesn't seem to be any limit on the secrecy power in the Constitution.
Also, military contractors are specifically allowed in Article I, Section 8:
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
Amonester
(11,541 posts)Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)And it had a lot of aspects that we would consider very modern.
pnwmom
(109,386 posts)demosincebirth
(12,697 posts)think
(11,641 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 12:49 PM - Edit history (2)
Would the founding fathers want a group of investors like The Carlyle Group,
who owns Booz Allen, to be privately in charge of some of America's most important military functions.
Wouldn't this seem utterly insane in light of the fact that The Carlyle Group was required to pay a $20 million dollar fine for allegedly bribing a public employee with millions of dollars?
So those that keep blaming Obama should focus on the real problem here. The private contractors and the NSA.
The NSA private contractor entanglement is the two headed monster that continues to violate the laws of the land while the private contractors take none of the blame for the transgressions that have transpired....
The entanglement by private contractors needs to end! Donald Rumsfeld was a huge fan of privatizing the military and many of his supporters are part of the Carlyle Group! George Herbert Walker Bush, ex head of the CIA, use to be on the Carlyle board!
And now in 2009 the Carlyle Group gets busted colluding with former Goldmann Sachs employees allegedly bribing a public official for millions of dollars yet they still get to own Booz Allen and make billions in profits.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023197900
That is the real scandal!
pnwmom
(109,386 posts)think
(11,641 posts)As one who has protested wars for many years I take civil rights for all people very seriously.
I am as staunch on this issue as I am in my support for universal healthcare. No person should be denied quality health care based on income inequality.
However, I do support the right for free enterprise to compete with universal health care if it is transparent and regulated fairly. There is nothing wrong with honest profits, competition, and incentive for innovation if it improves the health and/or everyday lives of Americans
Looking at the numbers though universal healthcare is statistically kicking American insurance based health care's ass.
Though no system is perfect I believe universal health care has been shown to be more humane and cost effective based on consistent study findings.
To be fair part of America's poor health findings according to a the recent report by the National Research Council are social factors.
The research council found that social factors like traffic fatalities & guns also affected the data:
by Richard Knox January 09, 2013 5:47 PM
It's no news that the U.S. has lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than most high-income countries. But a magisterial new says Americans are actually less healthy across their entire life spans than citizens of 16 other wealthy nations.
And the gap is steadily widening.
"What struck us and it was quite sobering was the recurring trend in which the U.S. seems to be slipping behind other high-income countries," the lead author of the report, Dr. , tells Shots.
~Snip~
The panel concludes that part of the nation's poor ranking can be attributed to problems with its $2.6 trillion-a-year health care system (the world's most expensive by far). Those problems include the 50 million Americans without health insurance, fewer doctors per capita, less access to primary care and fragmented management of complex chronic diseases.
But the new report places more stress on nonmedical shortcomings.
~Snip~
Guns have a lot to do with the homicide and accidental deaths. The report notes that murder rates involving guns are 20 times higher in the U.S. than in 22 other rich countries.
"Clearly we need to do something about violence and firearm-related homicides if we're going to close the gap," Woolf says. "It's a major contributor to the loss of years of life in our country among young people."
~Snip~
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/01/09/168976602/u-s-ranks-below-16-other-rich-countries-in-health-report
Two of my pet issues I guess. Sorry for the rant connected to my reply.
pnwmom
(109,386 posts)I wish we had Medicare for all, but I just don't blame Obama for settling for what we could get. After Ted Kennedy died, any chance of a public option died with him, IMHO.
In any case, I don't mind rants -- just mud throwing and insults, which I don't associate with you, think.
think
(11,641 posts)It's classified....
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I don't know that the actual forms of a letter of marque are followed anymore, but it's the exact same thing.
think
(11,641 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Obviously I have no idea which ones are classified.
think
(11,641 posts)of the law in their interpretation of it.
In light of John Yoo's famous constitutional interpretations I am confident my govt will make the right decision in complete secrecy....
With the separation of powers, Yoo has argued that each branch of government has the authority to interpret the Constitution for itself, which provides the justification for judicial review by the federal courts. In international law, Yoo has written that the rules governing the use of force must be understood to allow nations to engage in armed intervention to end humanitarian disasters, rebuild failed states, and stop terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.[26][27][28][29][30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo#Publications
Hopefully the interpretation is nothing like John Yoo's. I am using it to make a point that other admins have made some egregious decisions. and making these decisions in secret whether legally and ethically made it is unknown and that is not a good precedent considering the precedent already set by john Yoo and the Bush administration.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But, then again, if you elect people who believe that to the executive branch, that's what happens.
think
(11,641 posts)and it is certainly not transparent.
when 22 Dem Senators sign a letter asking the NSA if they violated the law because they don't know it's gone too far.
when a sitting Dem Senator has to get clearance to tell us the FISA court ruled the NSA violated the constitution it gone too far.
when Clapper sits up there in congress and perjurers himself it's gone too far.
when whistle blowers are gagged from telling the truth about crimes it's gone too far.
The American people and the world deserve a better and more transparency govt.
IMO they should start by scrapping the unpatriot act and looking into the Carlyle Group's bribery stuff in an open debate before congress. No fucking behind closed doors bullshit.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)think
(11,641 posts)Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)think
(11,641 posts)No news letters here. Just mild agitation at the known unknowns of secret law.
Learning can be irritating....
think
(11,641 posts)I've learned a lot here about politics and forum discourse.
One of the biggest things I'm still learning is to be respectful and tolerant though I do my share of wrangling. Can't claim to be a saint and I still have to check myself and my level of civility.
I'm sure there are a few here that would attest I've been rude in discussions. For what it's worth that's a stain I must live with and I still get a bit snarkier on occasions than I'm comfortable with. I do try to edit out snarkiness and try to apologize if I see that I've gone over the top.
After all the person you disagree on one of your pet issues may agree with you on many other issues out there. We are all Americans and we are all human beings at the end of the day. It's tough to mend burnt bridges too.
So I am trying very hard to stick to researching issues where information is available and doing my best to corroborate sources to back up my opinions.
sorry to ramble about myself....
leftstreet
(36,195 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)That was Ron Paul's preferred route to declaring war.
Good time to repost this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100210182
Have I mentioned Ron Paul isn't anti-war?
Ron Paul is a racist, anti-government demagogue. Everything he does benefits the GOP and the rich.
One person voted against the original Afghanistan AUMF
Barbara Lee
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml
Ron Paul voted yes.
In 2007, the House voted 218 to 212 to Set Date for Iraq Pullout
House, 218 to 212, Votes to Set Date for Iraq Pullout
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/24/washington/24cong.html
Ron Paul voted no.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll186.xml
In 2007, Ron Paul introduced the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007
States that no letter of marque and reprisal shall be issued without the posting of a security bond in such amount as the President determines sufficient to ensure the letter's execution.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr3216ih/pdf/BILLS-110hr3216ih.pdf
Of course when he introduced it in 2001, it was "for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator"
September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001
(b) The President of the United States is authorized to place a money bounty, drawn in his discretion from the $40,000,000,000 appropriated on September 14, 2001, in the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Recovery from and Response to Terrorists Attacks on the United States or from private sources, for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator responsible for the act of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, under the authority of any letter of marque or reprisal issued under this Act.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-107hr3076ih/pdf/BILLS-107hr3076ih.pdf
think
(11,641 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Just send out Dog the Bounty Hunter and his ilk against all of our enemies. I gave up trying to understand Ron Paul a while ago.
think
(11,641 posts)And you are making the same case for justifying the existence of companies like Booz Allen.
The Carlyle Group has been fined $20 million dollars for allegedly bribing a New York state employee millions of dollars. That's a huge legal violation to be alleged.
The Carlyle Group owns Booz Allen. So a group of investors who paid off millions of dollars in bribes controls one of the most important companies in the NSA private contractor conglomeration.
So would not Ron Paul be proven to be an idiot in trusting private corporations to run our military and espianage units?
The Carlyle Group via Booz Allen example is only one of many examples where private contractors and the military have proven to be a bad mix. Who can forget Blackwater USA!
Point being I don't believe the constitution was written to allow the kind of corporate malfeasance, illegal activity and corruption to flourish within the most sacred areas of America's Govt. No I think the founding father's would be appalled at what has transpired thanks to Bush and the Patriot Act.
Carlyle had entered into a joint venture with Riverstone Holdings, an energy and power focused private equity firm founded by former Goldman Sachs investment bankers. It was alleged that these payments were in fact bribes or kickbacks, made to pension officials who have been under investigation by New York State Attorney General, Andrew Cuomo.[43] In May 2009, Carlyle agreed to pay $20 million in a settlement with Cuomo and accepted changes to its fundraising practices.[44]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group
Recursion
(56,582 posts)think
(11,641 posts)between the public and private sector that is well regulated, I am against secret laws being used to shelter relationships between private for profit contractors and our spy agencies.
I apologize for misunderstanding and thinking you were supporting the use of the letters of marque to justify what happened in regards to private contractors like Booz Allen.
I do thank you for pointing out where one might try to justify military contractors via the letters of marque and
using it as a justification for the current relationships between Booz Allen, the NSA, & The Carlyle Group is basically indefensible.
The unpatriot act should be abolished and the bribery charges alleged against The Carlyle Group should be investigated by congress as well as how a person like Snowden working for a private contractor can be allowed to do so much damage to our national security.
There is no way in hell Booz Allen and The Carlyle Group deserve a pass on all this!
Thanks again for the reply.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But that in itself is not a panacea; what comes after them is very important. And frankly, with the House as it is, I kind of prefer the devil we know.
think
(11,641 posts)And let the American people see the devil for what it is.
The devil is certainly in the details....
think
(11,641 posts)Ron Paul is for using the letters of marque to use private contractors to engage in war & espionage.
I am certainly against this concept. Especially abuses of it.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)NSA secret.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)The Constitution doesn't specify how the secrecy decisions are made.
think
(11,641 posts)That part of the discussion should be done out in the public eye.
Thanks for posting. I was focused on the private contractors being constitutional under the Letters of Marque.
the Letters of Marque shouldn't be used to justified relationships like we see now between the NSA, Booz Allen and their investors at the Carlyle Group.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023197900
In light of the current events and the Carlyle Group paying a $20 million dollar fine for allegedly bribing a govt official there is no way in hell these private contractor relationships should be allowed to exist in secret!
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Otherwise it is wrong and illegal. There is no jurisdiction for contempt on the entire world's population while conspiring and eavesdropping on every conversation they partake
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)judged in secret courts via secret opinions.
Some of our Congress still have enough character to have a problem with that.
think
(11,641 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)
dtom67
(634 posts)Totalitarian Police states are perfectly constitutional.
Everyone quit whining about "your rights" and tow the party line. Who cares that your grandchildren will be born without basic freedoms. Its all perfectly legal.
Perfectly legal.......
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... should we allow it to run a national (universal) health care system?
Wouldn't a totalitarian government use it against us?
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)our health care records?
If we try to follow your logic, the NSA being a separate branch of government, would not have access to the medical records because they'd be handled in yet another, separate branch.
Except both branches would be controlled by the same totalitarian government.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...because with Congress there is a dispersion of power through its representational design that acts as a natural check against excess (look at what the Tea Baggers alone have done to Congress). And in the end, it can do nothing without the signature and the power of the Executive office to carry things out which also puts a check on their power.
However, what I don't recall ever seeing a provision for in the Constitution was one that allowed for the ''fast-tracking of Due Process'' through just one branch of the government with which to judge and sentence our citizens, as we're now doing. Particularly when the sentence being reached in some cases, is death.
Letters of Marque were issued as an aid in stopping the Barbary Pirates from commandeering American ships. Many being paid for by England. All the western European nations, to one extent or another, used Privateers (pirates who worked for governments) because no one had a standing army and/or navy large enough back then to threaten the whole world. Not like we do now.
And finally, if you look at the rosters of the NSA you'll see that a large number come from the MIC. This is a great way for them to appear a lot smaller than what they truly are, by simply contracting their work of surveilling the proles and the outer party members, out to the private sector. After a while you can't tell where the private sector ends and the public sector begins. Once you reach this point, you're already in fascism.
But I'm glad all this has ''conflict'' of opinion has spurned an interest into the letter of the law. Maybe if one reads long and hard enough, they'll also understand the spirit of those laws as well.
- Oh, and one of those founding fathers had this to say about men with power. I take his advice, literally:
[center]
link -------------------------------------------------- link[/center]
aquart
(69,014 posts)Our founding fathers lived in the real world.
cali
(114,904 posts)and other references.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I am specifically posting against the notion that there was some golden age of good government in the past.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You are in fact holding up the early Founder's times as rational for our own actions. You are not saying 'it was not golden then' your OP and posts in thread say 'they did then what we are doing now so that makes it ok'.
Cake and eat it too. Pick one.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I even did an OP describing the law regarding surveillance from 1789 to today, and how no time was very good from a civil liberties standpoint.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Thought so... (not covered)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He had sent Jay to England with sealed instructions, Congress asked what those were, and he told them to fuck off. The Jeffersonian faction made a noise and then realized they couldn't really do anything about it.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Constitutional? Secrets being kept by Booz Allen and the executive branch from the Congress are not legal, ethical, moral or just.
kentuck
(112,278 posts)of either House voting to make it so,
"...and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal. "
Which is more than just the Intelligence Committee in the Senate and a couple of Leaders in the House. There needs to be at least 20% of the Senate or the House comprised of the "secrets" the government is holding.
That would be my interpretation.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Though in practice the rules of the House separate the two clauses: on the one hand, the Speaker can declare some deliberations secret. On the other hand, Members can demand a recorded vote. I don't know that those two have ever come into conflict, but they may have.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)But you stroll right passed the facts and reality because you have a frame to fill!
think
(11,641 posts)This is compounded when the relationship is secret and not open to proper over site.
I'm not sure if you've seen where I've posted that the Carlyle Group was required to pay a $20 million dollar fine for allegedly bribing a govt employee with millions of dollars in 2009. The Carlyle group is an investment fund that owns Booz Allen.
Booz Allen investors allegedly bribing govt officials is a big deal in my eyes. Why on earth would we trust a company; who's primary investors are connected to bribing public officials; be allowed to oversee one our Govts most important functions?
Please check it out:
In March 2009, New York State and federal authorities began an investigation into payments made by Carlyle's Riverstone Holdings subsidiary to placement agents allegedly made in exchange for investments from the New York State Common Retirement System, the state's pension fund. In 2000, Carlyle had entered into a joint venture with Riverstone Holdings, an energy and power focused private equity firm founded by former Goldman Sachs investment bankers. It was alleged that these payments were in fact bribes or kickbacks, made to pension officials who have been under investigation by New York State Attorney General, Andrew Cuomo.[43] In May 2009, Carlyle agreed to pay $20 million in a settlement with Cuomo and accepted changes to its fundraising practices.[44]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group#Since_2007
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Last Updated: 2:28 PM, May 14, 2009
Posted: 12:51 PM, May 14, 2009
One of the nation's largest private equity funds has agreed to pay $20 million over its role in a corruption scandal involving New York's public pension fund.
The Carlyle Group was one of several firms that paid millions of dollars to an aide to New York's former comptroller in exchange for help obtaining investments from the retirement fund. ...
~Snip~
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/regional/item_Y7TIdVqJlQ6A2qZOUYK3zM
1-Old-Man
(2,667 posts)Those quotes apply to the House of Representatives.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And elect somebody else to make sure it does not happen again any time soon.