Is the Zimmerman prosecutor throwing the case?

[kudzu22]

I know many here think the trial is going well, but in my objective opinion, this is a train wreck for the prosecution. They're not close to proving the elements they need for 2nd degree murder, and every witness is adding to reasonable doubt. They even got the two lead investigators saying they believed GZ's account of the events, for Pete's sake. I just wonder if anyone else thinks the state may be losing on purpose.

[montanacowboy]

1. The State had to be forced to bring charges

they really wanted to just let it drop; Z was buddy buddy with all the cops; and if Z is found not guilty it will reinforce their Stand Your Ground Rule so makes you wonder

[onehandle]

3. How would that reinforce Stand Your Ground? It's not being used.

If Stand Your Ground was being used, Zimmerman getting off would make him ten times the hero he is now to gun culture.

[NM_Birder]

54. Zimmerman is not a hero to responsible gun owners, nor CC citizens.

Zimmerman personifies the very opposite of a responsible gun owner, and most especially and specifically the opposite of responsible conceal carry citizen. Conceal Carry is for protection of person, not property,.. and the safety of me and mine....not the application of the law and my suspicions of another person, that's what a police department and criminal justice system is for.

Zimmerman wrongfully killed Martin, he had no cause to confront him about anything, he is absolutely guilty of wrongful homicide, (or whatever the actual legal term is). Pretending he is a hero to a "gun culture" I take as inflammatory, and an insult.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

63. He was a buddy with the cops, but not just an ordinary one. His father is a retired judge.

[KurtNYC]

2. They aren't losing but if they were, why would anyone lose on purpose?

On national TV, with their own careers and reputations up for judgement.

[premium]

18. Yeah, they are losing at this point,

I've testified in enough criminal trials to know that this is an inept prosecution and it's turning into a train wreck for them.
Prosecution seemed to start out strong this morning and then fizzled towards the end.
Their heart just doesn't seem to be in it for some reason.

[KurtNYC]

24. Let's remember that the Defense opened with a joke insulting the jury

Neither of these teams is Johnnie Cochran, F Lee Bailey et al.

Their client said he was in fear for his life but then said "oh shit" and ran after the person he claimed to feel threatened by. Juries don't like being lied to or made fun of. They gave up a chunk of their life for this trial but to the defense lawyers who will get paid dearly, they are a joke.

[premium]

30. Opening the defense with a joke is irrelevant at this point

they're way past that.

Like I said, I've testified at enough criminal trials to know that the prosecution isn't doing so well.

[KurtNYC]

34. The comedians on the Defense team still have their work cut out for them

Zim should never have agreed to be interviewed without a lawyer present. Those tapes are damning.

[premium]

35. We shall see. nt.

[Nye Bevan]

4. They are going through the motions, but their heart is not in it.

Normally a prosecutor believes in his case and calls compelling witnesses to back up his theory. But this is clearly not a normal case.

[snooper2]

5. Yeah, the prosecutor is going to take a hit on his career for some low intelligence

idiot named George



I love the Intertubes, every thought imaginable makes it from ones neurons to the keyboard in record time

[KittyWampus]

10. Prosecutors are assigned to cases, aren't they? Want a conviction, assign the best you've got.

That said, I don't know anything about this prosecutor> record of successful convictions etc and am not paying much attention to this case.

So I'm not really arguing with you.

Just pointing out that the State could influence the proceedings by whom they assign or don't assign.

[Myrina]

31. Generally if it's a high profile case, the head DA will take it him/her self ...

... if the DA isn't on this one, it indicates he/she probably didn't want to touch it - probably for political reasons since DA's usually have aspirations of a judgeship or moving into the Governor/Attorney General's office.

The 'staff attorneys' get the other cases based on their 'specialties' or their caseloads at the time, IIRC from my time as a victim's advocate in my local DA's office.

If this was a slam dunk or a conviction they wanted to get, the DA would have had his/her face all over the news.

[kudzu22]

6. I grant that the state's case isn't complete yet

maybe they have some surprise witness or fact to bring out, but it's not looking good. Why would they play the tape of GZ's interview by police? That lets GZ get his side of the story in without being subject to cross-examination. It's a gift to the defense. Unbelievable.

[Nye Bevan]

7. Rachel Jeantel was the "star witness".

The prosecutor will be glad when all this is over, I think.

[dpibel]

58. According to whom?

I'm not aware that parties identify "star" witnesses. Can you point me to where the prosecution so identified Jeantel?

Or was that just the media and online commentators?

[Roland99]

12. And NONE of that was UNDER OATH!

[kudzu22]

15. But it can still be evidence

Only the prosecution could put GZ's statements into evidence. The defense cannot because it would be self-serving hearsay. Which is why I'm completely puzzled why the state would put it in FOR THEM. It helps the defense a lot, because now GZ doesn't have to take the stand to tell his side, and the state doesn't have the opportunity to tear him apart on the stand.

Which is why I asked if the state is throwing the case on purpose.

[Savannahmann]

17. Only insomuch as it is a Felony to make a false statement to police.

They may have mirandized him as well, but you're right, under oath it wasn't.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. But if he had been Mirandized anything he says can be used against him.

If what he says turns out to be more favorable to the defense then the prosecution is daft.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Why would they play the tape of GZ's interview by police?

Because Zimmerman's statements to police had numerous logical flaws and inconsistencies.

Zimmerman doesn't have to testify. It's his constitutional right not to.

The prosecutors bring in his statements to police to lay a foundation to debunk his claims of self defense.

They're not playing it to the jury just because they're bored and lazy.

[LiberalFighter]

39. I agree. There are inconsistencies in that video

And likely the prosecution is laying the groundwork to destroy the asshole.

[KurtNYC]

25. Because Zimmerman hangs himself in that tape

In opening statements the prosecution said the evidence that will convict Zimmerman is what came out of Zimmerman's mouth. The star witness for the prosecution is Zimmerman

Zimmerman knows the law and he tries to reshape his story to make himself out as being threatened. Serino and Singleton grill him and THEY ask everything you would want to ask if you had Zim on the stand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023147402

[kudzu22]

27. But why play the whole tape?

Why not just put the cops on the stand and ask them if GZ changed his story at all? I grant I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a trial expert. It just seems odd that they let GZ tell his side, and let the defense get the cops to admit they believed him. Ugh.

[KurtNYC]

29. Zim is not taking the stand in this trial so the tape is the only way

for the jury to hear Zimmerman.

Once the tape is in, the Defense could play all of it and that would look bad for the prosecution, as if they thought parts of it were damaging to their case.

[kudzu22]

48. Ok, I see your point

If it were me, though, I would have just asked the cops what Zim said rather than letting the tape in as evidence. Maybe juries believe a tape more than sworn officers. This case is nerve-wracking.

[LittleBlue]

8. They never wanted to bring this charge

And it shows. This case is weak as hell.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. How? nt

[brooklynite]

9. Well, if it's your OBJECTIVE opinion...

I guess we have to listen

[moondust]

11. They mainstream media may be convincing them

that they are losing terribly and they'll never get a conviction and so on. That could be demoralizing to hear.

They shouldn't be watching what I sense is racist bullshit many in the media are pushing to try to get Zimmerman off.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. Did you ever get a haircut?

Are you ever in the barber/stylist's chair halfway through the haircut, and you look at what he/she's doing, and you panic for a second and think that he or she is butchering your hair, and you think that for sure you'll end up with a horrible haircut?

When in fact the barber/stylist is merely parting or combing your hair in a stranger manner that looks bad at the moment, just to get a better cut that works for the overall haircut?

I know this, because I think this everytime I go into a haircut. The barber starts combing my hair in strange ways and I freak out.

And in the end, it all turns out looking fine. The overall result looks good.

The reason I say this is because the prosecution's case isn't built on a single witness, but instead requires multiple witnesses and foundation building, all which will be summed up in closing arguments.

If you focus on something one witnesses said during the course of his/her testimony without the context of the greater case, you'll create unnecessary panic.

My bottom line is: Wait until the haircut's done. Wait until the prosecution's finished its case and created its narrative in closing arguments, before passing judgment on how they've done.

[kudzu22]

20. I can't help but do a little armchair lawyering

I hope you're right and they have some case to make in this.

[IphengeniaBlumgarten]

26. What I think the State might be doing...

Possibly they are trying to get all of Z's statements on record, and then use forensic evidence to demonstrate that he had claimed things which clearly are not true.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. That's what I'm thinking.

Note, none of the major medical testimony has come in yet. (Other than Zimmerman's doctor)

[LiberalFighter]

42. Yes.. Laying the groundwork

[AnotherMcIntosh]

59. If so and the prosecutor is a chess-master, it is not necessary for the prosecutor to allow the

defense attorney to ask questions calling for speculation.

Such questions are objectionable and do not help the prosecution's case at all.

[avebury]

16. The prosecution is getting on my last nerve.

I don't think that their case is as well organized as it should be. I (and granted I am not an attorney) would have focused on a set number of points that just cannot be argued or disputed. I would keep coming back to those points and hammer away at them. I would also have had a better idea of how my witnesses would look on the stand. Too many witnesses have ended up being better assets for the Defense. You don't have to "coach" witnesses to drill home that they are not forensic scientists, they should not speculate on what they have no direct knowledge of, and they should stick to testifying only about what they do know. When a witness starts to go in the direction of being a surrogate for Zimmerman they should go right to the heart of why the jury should not buy Zimmerman's story. The DA should have been ripping apart Zimmeran's story.

I would have made sure that Martin's girl on the phone had an attorney to look out for her best interests in order to educate her on the process of what would happen when she got on the stand. She is a kid from a lower socio-econmonic area who they had to know would have had problems on the stand. It is not coaching the girl to have someone educate her on what happens in court (i.e. the Prosecution is essentially going to play nice and the Defense will try to tear her apart). It really looked like she got thrown to the wolves.

[B2G]

21. Jeantel *has* an attorney

Rod Vareen. 22 years experience.

[avebury]

22. It appears that he did not serve her very well. nt

[JimDandy]

40. Jesus H Christ, then he doesn't know crap about preparing a witness for court.

[michreject]

23. I have yet to see a prosecution witness

That helped the prosecution.

[naaman fletcher]

41. I think jenteal helped

Her testimony is the ONLY thing on the prosecutions side. The police lead investigator backed Zim 100%. I heard Mark Garagos say today that he's never in his life seen a prosecution witness so utterly side with the defendant as what happened yesterday.

[JimDandy]

44. She did a good job and absolutely did help. The prosecution

better do their job getting Trayvon some justice.

[michreject]

71. She admitted to telling two lies under oath

I know she had her reasons but a jury will raise an eyebrow at that admission.

[naaman fletcher]

74. Sure,

But overall she helped. She gave a narrative consistent with the prosecution theory, as opposed to the vast majority of prosecution witnesses who were at best neutral and some giving narratives consistent with the defense theory.

[Myrina]

28. I tend to think so.

n/t

[rollin74]

32. I am not convinced that there was ever enough evidence...

to build a strong winnable case in the first place

they're probably doing the best they can with what little they have

[premium]

38. It's my belief that the DA's office caved to public pressure

and charged him with a crime that they now probably realize they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
Talk about the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

[rollin74]

50. I tend to agree

it may have been more of a political/emotional decision to file charges in this case rather than one based on careful consideration of the facts and evidence (being able to prove it)

in the absence of intense outside pressure, prosecutors usually don't like to go to court with cases that they aren't quite confident they can win

this case has looked pretty piss poor for the state from day 1 of the trial

[premium]

53. I see that you have the Nevada State Flag as your avatar.

if you don't mind my asking, what part of Nevada do you reside in?
I live just outside of Tonopah on 30 acres I bought several years ago.

[rollin74]

55. Washoe County. near Reno

TBH I've never even been down your way

one day, I would like to make the drive all the way down to Las Vegas and see more of Nevada rather than just flying over most of it

[premium]

56. I used to patrol that area when I was assigned

to the Toiyabe/Humboldt National Forest a USFS Ranger, beautiful part of Nevada. You're not missing much down south here, mostly desert, dust, hot, hot weather.
I was born and raised not far from where you are, in Lake Topaz, NV., thinking of moving back to spend the sunset years of my life.

[Faux pas]

33. That was my thought earlier

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3148714

Guess the whole county is bigoted, not just the Sanford PD. If memory serves, the only reason charges were brought against the 'creepy cracker' was because of public pressure. The f-er is gonna walk and probably take down a few more innocents along the way. I'm pissed off and heart sick at the same time.

[pipi_k]

36. I too

think there have been many train wreck moments for the prosecution, but throwing the case on purpose? I dunno...

Is it possible? Sure.

Probable? Thinking probably not.

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

43. Many people thought the the prosecutors

in the Casey Anthony case had a slam dunk and she walked.

[EdwardSmith74]

45. No, the defense attorney is throwing it. He knows it is a no-win.

[premium]

46. And you're basing this on what?

So far, the majority of lawyers interviewed have said that the prosecution is basically getting their ass kicked.

[EdwardSmith74]

49. His opening "knock-knock" joke. I don't think he's in tune with what's going on.

And it seems the drugged out Zimmerman so he will just sit there like a zombie. Getting fat won't help him either. He killed the poor kid in cold blood and he knows it.

[premium]

51. The joke is irrelevant, way past that.

And what proof that Zimmerman is drugged out do you have?

I've testified in enough criminal cases to know that the prosecutions case isn't going good at all.

[EdwardSmith74]

57. No proof, just observation. He's practically comotose.

[premium]

60. Ok.

So, wild accusations, no proof. Thanks for clearing that up.

[EdwardSmith74]

65. Yeah, wild accusation. But he used to be animated and now he's a zombie. Something's up.

[premium]

66. Yeah, lawyers don't like their clients

being animated while in court, juries usually don't like that, this is normal.

[EdwardSmith74]

67. Hence the thought that they drugged him up to keep his mouth quiet.

Every time he speaks he says something incriminating against himself. I think they put him on bennies or something.

[premium]

69. Bennies?

If he were on bennies, he'd be jumping all over the place. Now I know you don't have a clue of what your talking about.
I'm really sure that his lawyers would have him take an illegal drug while in court.
Like I said, wild accusations based on no proof at all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bennies


ben·ny
1 [ben-ee] Show IPA

noun, plural ben·nies. Slang.
1.
Benzedrine, especially in tablet form.

2.
any amphetamine tablet.

[EdwardSmith74]

72. Benzodiazapines

[JVS]

47. I doubt that. The trial has made me suspect that the reason they initially didn't want to go to...

trial initially were not as nefarious as many alleged though.

[HockeyMom]

52. 2nd degree was over-charged

I think they are looking for a plea down to Manslaughter. Anything would be better than letting Zimmerman off scott free, and able to keep his guns.

[BainsBane]

62. They'll be lucky to get manslaughter at this point

But I agree that's what the facts seem to support.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

64. Lesser included charge, lesser included charge, lesser included charge.

Even if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd Degree Murder, he can still be convicted of manslaughter.

The prosecution can consistently argue both 2nd Degree and manslaughter without having to change their story. Either Zimmerman's actions could be found to be a callous disregard for human life, or they were merely reckless. (Or, as the defense would argue, they would be justified in self-defense.)

[BainsBane]

61. the cops threw it

and entirely deliberately. Assholes.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

68. Maybe. But, imagine if they're being strategic...

...putting all witnesses on the stand so they can give different accounts of what happened.

There hasn't been one consistent story, not even from Serino.

But, let's assume that they're throwing the case on purpose. It wouldn't surprise me.

ALEC----> NRA-----> STATE GUN LAWS-----> State has a political interest in letting Zimmerman walk.

[etherealtruth]

73. I don't know if 'on purpose' is the correct term

The prosecutor sure appears to be from the "B" (possibly C) team, though.