General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo to sum up our new Realpolitik:
Under a Democratic president:
1. It's OK to spy on all Americans because Edward Snowden may have broken laws and/or not smiled at neighbors, and/or because FREEDOM.
2. It's OK to spy on other countries because we just kinda know they do it too and/or we heard something about this before and/or FREEDOM.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I'll add that to the OP.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I could hear Republicans saying it that bitterly.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)used to oppose, from a few on the Left, it can hardly be denied, can it? Blind loyalty is a dangerous thing for a democracy. A good Democrat will not act like the other party and condone or apologize for horrendous policies just because their party is doing it. They want THEIR party to support GOOD policies. I hope that answers your question.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And does not go out of their way to whine and cry when Democrats have the powers that the Republicans just did previously. This bitter sounding "OK when the Dems do it" sounds just like what Republicans would say.
Furthermore, it is not even the case. The Democrats have the same Executive powers as the Rs do when they have the Presidency. That they are better trusted with it goes without saying. However, Obama actually cut down on those powers for himself. So it shows the bad faith in which his (allegedly left wing) detractors argue.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)It is allowing the Democrats the same powers as Republicans when they have that office. You keep resorting to that claim because you think it's clever. In fact, it's stupid and just proves you think no one should have those powers, and Democrats should not, either. While the legal system gives those powers. (Cue your bitterness that it's not legal if you think it's not legal, damn society and the courts or any other branch of government).
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Why can't Dem Presidents use the powers Repuke Presidents did?
You aren't calling anyone out for transgressions of any kind, you simply insist that being elected to office makes the winner guilty of transgressions where you simply don't understand the law/Constitution.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Because the Repukes abused that power. Now you are admitting that Democrats, rather than correcting those abuses which is why they were elected, are using them. That is exactly the problem.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)so be it. I'd rather not be a Democrat under those circumstances.
kardonb
(777 posts)is just that , dealing with realities , not imaginary Disneylands .
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)And ALL foreigners are potential terrists and its OK to spy on them. Because we (dirty foreigners) absolutely hate you for your freedoms.
PS. The thread title is the line I saw pushed on DU, believe it or not.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)Obama is a GOD! The Greatest President in all History. He has kept us safe and secure, and has only our very best interests at heart.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)His whole family is beautiful. And he gives amazing speeches.
It's all that other stuff that gets troublesome.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The powers of the presidency ?
n2doc
(47,953 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)because the minority party won't let him. Which is it? He is pushing cuts to SS but not because he wants to, it's because the other party is forcing him to. He lifted the ban on Offshore drilling, because he was forced to do it by the other party etc etc.
So what powers does he have that should have enabled to stop the Bush policies from being strengthened rather than ended? How about Guantanamo? We were told he doesn't have the power to close it??
treestar
(82,383 posts)Why is it all or nothing with you constitutional scholars? Do you not get that each branch has power, but none over the other branches? How stupid do you have to be to keep insisting the legislature should bow down to the presidency and have no power but at the same time whine that the executive has "spying" powers? Complain about the executive having a database while wishing it could overrun the legislature.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)nineteen50
(1,187 posts)to save it, trust us.
mick063
(2,424 posts)I can live with the players using performance enhancing drugs.
Just as long as they win.
As Al Davis used to say; "Just win baby"
Yayyyy!!
"Our" side is winning!!!!!
East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)After we worked to get him elected, he told us so himself.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Under a Democratic president:
1. It's OK to spy on all Americans because Edward Snowden may have broken laws and/or not smiled at neighbors, and/or because FREEDOM!
2. It's OK to spy on other countries because we just kinda know they do it too and/or we heard something about this before and/or FREEDOM!
...no!
Bush and Cheney were liars, and there is an effort to create the impression Obama is no different
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023043154
As for Snowden, he's likely up shit creek.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023124655
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)good to know. I'll ignore any other information not coming from the proper authorized messenger.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)the amount of spying on Americans?
Or a reduction in the prosecution of whistleblowers?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Can you please remind us of Obama's victories in reducing the amount of spying on Americans?
Or a reduction in the prosecution of whistleblowers?"
First, Obama is cleaning up Bush's mess here. NYT:
Describing for the first time the scale of the Bush administrations hunt for the sources of The Times article, former officials say 5 prosecutors and 25 F.B.I. agents were assigned to the case. The homes of three other security agency employees and a Congressional aide were searched before investigators raided Mr. Drakes suburban house in November 2007. By then, a series of articles by Siobhan Gorman in The Baltimore Sun had quoted N.S.A. insiders about the agencys billion-dollar struggles to remake its lagging technology, and panicky intelligence bosses spoke of a culture of leaking.
Though the inquiries began under President Bush, it has fallen to Mr. Obama and his attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., to decide whether to prosecute. They have shown no hesitation, even though Mr. Drake is not accused of disclosing the N.S.A.s most contentious program, that of eavesdropping without warrants.
<...>
Under President Bush, no one was convicted for disclosing secrets directly to the press. But Lawrence A. Franklin, a Defense Department official, served 10 months of home detention for sharing classified information with officials of a pro-Israel lobbying group, and I. Lewis Libby Jr., a top aide to Mr. Cheney, was convicted of perjury for lying about his statements to journalists about an undercover C.I.A. officer, Valerie Plame Wilson.
The F.B.I. has opened about a dozen investigations a year in recent years of unauthorized disclosures of classified information, according to a bureau accounting to Congress in 2007.
<...>
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/12/us/politics/12leak.html
Bush launched the investigations and now Obama is cleaning up the mess. Drake home was raided and he was terminated during the Bush administration.
So what's the spin: Absolve Bush for launching the investigations, add a qualifier for Bush's convictions and repeat often "Obama's prosecutions!!"
The charges were dropped in the following case:
Remember whistleblower Thomas Tamm?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032225
Some of the more recent leaks seem to be agenda related and aimed at embarrassing the U.S. or starting wars.
I'm not a fan of those type of leakers: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022850304
More leaks, more prosecutions. That's how the law works.
Bruce Schneier:
But before the Justice Department prosecutes Snowden, there are some other investigations that ought to happen.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/prosecuting_sno.html
Like I said, Snowden is likely up shit creek.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023124655
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)as evidence that Obama is less spy-crazed or secrecy-crazed than Bush?
mick063
(2,424 posts)Mr. "Too big to prosecute" Holder is really cracking down on those "dirty leakers" and "pot traffickers."
At least we know he isn't a gun runner for the Mexican cartels. You gotta give him credit for giving Dept. of Justice some shred of credibility.
As much as FOX tries to blast him for made up shit, you think they would try the truth for a little more punch.
Then again, FOX is aligned with his agenda. That would be the corporate agenda. They just don't want this administration to get credit for it.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war."
xchrom
(108,903 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Otherwise the terrorists win!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Narkos
(1,185 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)of Globilization for the 1% and Struggle for the rest of us...Contrary to the Neo-Lib's Message of "Rising Tide Raises ALL BOATS" and "It will Trickle Down from the Movers and Shakers" .nd, then there's the worst scam... "Let's Leave it up to the YOUNG ...because THEY are the ENTREPRENUERS who will Bring US ALL OUT OF THIS!" (Their Prime Example is Elon Musk who takes up Prime Time on Bloomberg Business News every other day).
Business friend in Germany sent out something today with the Breaking News about USA Spying on EU. He said: "Caution: There are many German Businesses who find this Spying by America on the EU Very Bad for Business Connections between Germany and the US. We are disappointed that this is the way Business Interests are heading there in US...and it's not worthwhile for Small Business to try to work with getting our Products out there when the Spying means that the Big Business will have advantage because of this spying."
Another DU Family could eventually end up on Food Stamps along with those we could have hired because of this Revelation.
IOWD's
If our World Partners are shocked that "America...Home of the BRAVE AND FREE...is SPYING on their ALLIES...there will be repercussions... from THEIR OWN HOMELANDS
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)talk about people who believe, "It's OK to spy on all Americans" because we have a "Democratic president", you'd think that DU was absolutely overrun with such people.
For every person on DU who might have a position that modestly includes any part of that proposition, there are 10 more who would argue no such thing, and yet are improperly "accused" of having that belief. It's like a witch hunt here these days.
There have been times when a rational balanced argument was met with a rational, balanced counter-argument. Not so much lately.
These days, if a person speculates that while what Snowden did may be good for the country in the long run, it may still be true that the government has a prosecutable case against him for improperly handling classified materials, then that person is liable to be excoriated and labeled with the usual pejoratives.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)not whether Snowden broke any laws, neither of which was the point I was making.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)handling/leaking classified materials, or conducting a massive spying operation on American citizens?
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)against the massive surveillance operation, although my post didn't take any positions on those questions.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)when his role, questionable or not, is not relevant
It's why people get a little upset. Should he be put on trial? I suppose so. Maybe? But that has nothing to do with this action by our government. The fact that Snowden revealed the crime is immaterial.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)To reiterate, my original post took no position on Snowden or the NSA. It was intended as conditional proposition in an attempt to illustrate a point of style.
I largely agree that Snowden's personality, history, and motives are relatively immaterial to the larger questions over widespread, pervasive government surveillance.
I'm not however, upset, when others discuss Snowden. If I have something I want to contribute to the discussion, I'll do it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Thanks in advance.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)" -- tapping the world's telephone and Internet traffic, and sharing that info with the United States.
"Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), Britain's version of the NSA, is allowed to tap more than 200 fiber-optic data cables running through British territory, giving the organization access massive amounts of telephone and Internet data, according to the Guardian, who revealed today that Snowden provided it with a document detailing the UK spy agencies efforts to collect phone and web data."
- Foreign Policy, June 21, 2013
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)The NSA is using the GCHQ to spy on Americans more thoroughly than NSA can do by itself.
I'm not sure that this really counts as "they do it so we need to do it too".
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)was not the question. Did the question shift a little?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)than a country surreptitiously spying on us, I think?
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)The point remains that the UK is a European country that spies on us.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)if her client asks for, and pays for, her services?
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)by the Pond but united by umbilical cord that is a Trans-Atlantic cable.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)to work closely with the NSA on massive, indiscriminate phone and internet surveillance operations.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)"A German hacker organization claims to have cracked spying software allegedly used by German authorities. The Trojan horse has functions which go way beyond those allowed by German law. The news has sparked a wave of outrage among politicians and media commentators."
- Spiegel Online International, October 10, 2011
Not the same, but in the ballpark. Some European governments may be more like the United States that we know or than they'll admit. Or not.
But the justifiable anger of many European citizens over the latest revelations is very real.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)It's barely evidence of anything at all.
"Some guys on the Internet claim that it's possible that..."
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)as I said in the post, "Not the same". Maybe you missed it.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I should never post after downing a margarita. Damned limes ruin my concentration.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Snowden attempted to spy back, and look what is happening to him. I am all for the people in a state where the government is spying on them, to be able to spy back.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Bismark would be shocked.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Is the new realpolitik.
Or a load of crap.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)and network with private corporations when we have a respectable and decent President in the White House.
Because we are SURE that future presidents will ALL be respectable and not batshit crazy. We have never seen crazy people run for president, or question our super duper Diebold elections!
Woohoo good thing we're safe and sound!