OCOTILLO WIND TURBINE THROWS OFF MULTI-TON BLADE, PROMPTING WORLD-WIDE SHUT DOWN OF SIMILAR TURBINES

[nadinbrzezinski]

May 16, 2013 (Ocotillo)—One day after San Diego Supervisors ignored residents’ safety concerns and approved a wind ordinance that would open much of East County to industrial wind turbines, a wind turbine at the Ocotillo Express Wind Energy facility hurled off an 11-ton blade. The blade, manufactured by Siemens, landed on a trail used by off-road vehicles. The accident has shut down the wind facility pending investigation into the cause.

An investigation by East County Magazine reveals a dark history of serious safety hazards involving Siemens’ wind products as well as a corporate past that includes guilty pleas to corruption on a global scale, including accusations of bribery and other serious charges in at least 20 nations.

Siemens contracted with Pattern Energy, a company with its own checkered corporate past, as ECM has previously reported, to build the controversial project on public land managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management in Ocotillo and paid for with taxpayer subsidies. Pattern's corporate predecessor also built the Kumeyaay Wind project in Campo, which blew apart in 2010, whirling blade parts over the area. All 75 blades on all 25 turbines had to be replaced; the project was off-line for months.

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/13251

I just love mega energy corporations and shady deals.



I expect as much pushback on this too

[jeff47]

1. Other thread didn't go as well as you hoped, huh? (nt)

[Brother Buzz]

12. This thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022857460#post279

[greytdemocrat]

33. Two are more better...

[maddezmom]

2. Interesting but could you please edit without the caps. n/t

[backscatter712]

46. BUT THEN THE THREAD WOULDN'T LOOK AS STRIDENT! n/t

[freshwest]

317. But that's how the source did it. Is that an exception to the rule about yelling with caps?

[RC]

191. WHY? THE ORIGINAL TITLE IS ALL CAPS.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND SOME PEOPLE'S OBJECTION TO SIMPLE COPY AND PASTE.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. I'm a fan of wind energy...

...but have you seen the size of the blades?? I remember when they were building a wind farm north of me and they were trucking in the blades. They're 100 ft long!

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I was there at Ocotillo yesterday

It is the wind farms that are generating issues that fans of green energy did not expect.

I recommend looking at the blade less systems under deployment or in research. Much more efficient, and less issues...the owners of these wind farms don't want us to talk about them...they rely more on distributive energy production models...like roof top solar, they wish we shut up.

[bluestate10]

114. Hummm... One day interviewing the head of dog-catching in some small Florida city

fearing that some grease painted Navy Seal is tapping in on every word of the conversation, a few days later, watching an impossibly heavy wind turbine blade fly through the air in California.

Ok, so wind currents send an 11 ton blade flying like a toothpick. Are there any cars and regular trucks left on the roads in that place?

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. When exactly was I in Florida?

You got people confused, the last time I was in Florida it was almost twenty years ago

[rhett o rick]

122. What is the purpose of this post? Are you doubting the accuracy of the OP? If so, get some

links. As far as the blade flying, I dont think it was due to wind velocity but momentum. But if you have facts you want to present, let's here them.

[MindPilot]

14. Yeah, I really didn't grock how big those blades are until I was alongside one on the freeway.

Longest truck I ever passed I think.

[A HERETIC I AM]

76. Back on the old DU I put up a thread of my encounter with a couple of those blades....

but I moved the photos, so linking the old thread is a bust, BUT...


Here's the photos. This happened back in 2011 in Little America, WY, about 40 miles West of Rock Springs.


The front of the trailer showing the blade base.



Trailer steering mechanism detail;


The pilot car parked UNDER the blade tip.


The truck I was driving parked next to one for scale. MY truck nose to tail was about 80' or so.



Edit to add the text from the original thread from May 12, 2011;

I'm on my way from Denver to Portland and stopped today in Little America, WY, about 30 miles west of Rock Springs. There were two rigs hauling Wind Turbine blades and I thought some of you might enjoy seeing some shots I took. Pardon the quality, as I am only using my camera phone.

Here's my truck parked next to one of the rigs;

My truck is right about 75' long. The driver of the blade rig told me they were permitted for 150 feet. The blade itself is over 100' long and hangs past the tail lights by about 25'. So from the drivers seat to the tip of the blade is easily 140'! Just about exactly twice as long as my car hauler, nose to tail.

The two rigs side-by-side with their escorts behind. This shows how far the tips extend beyond the end of the trailers. The escort vans are parked underneath them!


These trailers are interesting and unique in that they are "rear steer" capable.
Here is a detail of that mechanism;

The trailers had 3 axles and were steerable by the operation of the hydraulic ram you see, one mounted on each side. The rams were attached to arms that actuated all three axles at once. This feature is necessary with a unit of this length or negotiating even broad corners would be difficult and normal corners impossible. The steering was controlled by the escort driver in the van behind, NOT the rig driver, using a small, hand held, 3 button transmitter. Left / Right / Center. Simple.

The rig from the front;



They mount the hub end of blade to the trailer using the studs that will eventually attach it to the turbine hub when it is installed. The rear of the blade is secured into a cradle and strapped down, so it has only two mount points with no support in the middle - not that it really needs it. One driver of these units I spoke with told me they can be a real hand full in a crosswind as the blade amplifies the side loading effect of a broadside wind.

I mentioned the permit for 150'. One of the escort drivers told me the over length permit to travel across Wyoming was $900! He told me they could drive 2000 miles in circles in Texas and the permit would only be $30.00! Nine hundred for 400 and change miles! What a rip off. I have talked to a couple of these crews and they all agreed however, that Kansas was the worst for permitting and just being a general pain in the ass about moving this equipment.

These rigs fascinate me and I would love the chance to drive one, as I enjoy a challenge like this. If you have done any cross country driving, you'll have noticed wind-farms cropping up all over. This is the first time I've driven across Wyoming in probably 10 years or so and there are now wind turbine farms in places that were barren, even a few years ago. What I find really interesting is the spots they are installing some of these things - at the top of mesa's and ridgelines and the driver has to get that thing up a sometimes winding, steep and almost always dirt road to get it to the jobsite.

[Codeine]

78. Off-topic, I remember thinking Little America was the coolest place on earth when I was little

growing up in and around Rock Springs. Seven-year-old me found big rigs and truck stops fascinating as all get out.

[A HERETIC I AM]

81. I love it! One of the neatest truckstops out there!

First time I ever stopped there was in 1987, on my first trip west in an 18 wheeler.


It has changed much over the years, to be sure. But a GREAT restaurant out in the middle of nowhere, gorgeous rooms and MARBLE showers in the truckers building!

[defacto7]

252. Oh, I remember my first visit in 1962.

Family road trip. I thought it was the most remote place on earth. It has stuck in my mind as one of the memories that own you. Me and my brothers just started walking off behind it as far as we could. It was like being on Mars. Lot's of ancient treasures out there for a kid. Old car parts from the 20s. and other prized junk. Great memory for a 6 year old.

[Liberty Belle]

141. These are 173 feet long, the newer generation of larger turbines. Each weighs about 11 tons.

[freshwest]

318. I've only seen them from a distance when they looked in proportion to the towers themselves.

Last edited Thu May 23, 2013, 02:27 AM - Edit history (1)

I've seen the towers transported, that's a big job.

I hadn't even considered the factor of that weight. Oof!

Perhaps this is the newer version with much bigger blades?

[Ian David]

4. How long do they expect the environmental clean-up to take? Like an hour?

OMG, just think about how much cancer this is going to cause in the area.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. You laugh, CSU San Marcos is doing the work up

On a local cluster near the Kumeyaii plant in Campo. For the record...it is not wind, I suspect it's not what activists believe, and it is not the only cluster around the world. Work on that is just starting.

[jeff47]

7. Why not just link to the other thread where you brought this up?

And it was pointed out that this 'work up' is not what you claim?

[maddezmom]

9. So seems like you have moved on from the turbines/ infrasound causing cancer to

Roundup. But why you link to this site?

http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012/11/13/boulevard-and-manzanita-residents-speak-out-on-wind-turbine-health-concerns/

Walking back your earlier comments?

[winter is coming]

28. They've amortized the cost of installing the turbines by using them to fling insecticide??

[maddezmom]

37. Your guess is as good as mine and Nadin

Is not forth coming about ideas so it is hard to follow. Bait and switch comes to mind here.

[Whisp]

53. That blade was really hit by a North Korea missile.

but shhhh. A photo of the incident was missed as it happened when the reporter was away buying milk in large quantities and while at the store, bumped into a non partisan Democrat and starting chit chatting which made delay. That and on the way back to the site, the reporter took a speed course on how to be an Astronaut in 3 e-z steps.

More nooz that's not fit to print.

[Codeine]

84. More like that blade took a NK missile out!

These anti-missile turbines can launch a targeted, blade-shaped interceptor projectile weighing 11 tons at high velocity for up to a mile, rendering incoming missiles ineffective while providing clean, green energy for San Diego's families.

Siemens: Own the Airspace, Own the Battlefield!

[rhett o rick]

124. Your ridicule is unbecoming. Do you think you are still in Jr. High? nm

[NYC_SKP]

179. Same author.

Miriam Raftery doesn't like wind power.

Links Siemens to Nazi's in the East County mag article.

[maddezmom]

182. It is getting more and more pathetic

If she was smart she would have let this one just sink.

[Liberty Belle]

143. Stray voltage from wind turbines has been measured at 1,000 times where there's a cancer cluster

in nearby Campo at the Kumeyaay wind facility. Indians near there are very ill, with brain, stomach and kidney cancer, even abdominal tumors n a 2-year-old child. They are undergoing a university study now. Do we just throw these up everywhere in the meantime? We require chemical manufacturers to prove they are relatively safe before spraying them everywhere, these turbines have not been proven safe.

There also have been hydraulic fluid leaks as an aside at many of the turbines in our area. That is a hazardous waste. And when it leaks in sand over an aquifer - Ocotillo's sole source of drinking water, that IS a big deal, or could be if it contaminates their groundwater. Why are you so disdainful when you don't even know the facts? Educate yourself. These things are public healh hazards in quite a few ways, actually.

[winter is coming]

148. The stray voltage has been measured at 1,000 times what?

What do chemical manufacturers have to do with turbines? And -- for about the twentieth time -- has a cancer cluster actually been documented and verified, or is it just that people suspect one may exist? Tossing out half-formed statements with no obvious foundation gives the impression that you haven't done your homework. If you want to convince, statements should be complete, well-organized, and verifiable.

[Liberty Belle]

152. The medical study is ongoing at Cal State San Marcos.

The measurements are 1,000 times normal levels of what one would expect in a rural area. The only potential source out there is the wind turbines and the substation/powerlines built to hook up to the project. It's a remote area.

These Indians all say they've never had cancers out there before. They are an ideal study population because they all lived in the same place for generations and there is no other source of industrial pollution out there to account for this, nor a family history of it. This outbreak began after the turbines came in. We can't wait 20 years to take action. There are similar stories many places of illnesses. We have published many stories on our site with links to the actual reports. You can find them there.

[winter is coming]

158. And what is considered normal in a rural area? It could be 1,000 times greater and still not

significant. Until a study establishes a cancer cluster it's irresponsible to claim one exists. One of the things the study will need to rule out is the possible effect of inbreeding among a remote, isolated population.

[WCLinolVir]

175. Cancer cluster is established by the number of cases of cancer-

you do not need a study, only statistics. Inbreeding??? WTF?

[winter is coming]

177. At this point, it's only suspected, so saying they have one is premature.

As for inbreeding, I wasn't talking about incest, if that's what you were thinking. But if you have a relatively small population that's isolated in some way, such that members intermarry, undesirable genes can be reinforced. Think about Ashkenazi Jews and Tay Sachs. Perhaps there is a cluster, but it's due to some unfortunate gene combinations coming up.

[WCLinolVir]

195. WOW, who said anything about incest?? Tay Sachs isn't cancer. It is RARE.

GET some FACTS. Don't try to think for me.

[winter is coming]

198. I never claimed Tay Sachs was cancer. And yes, it's rare, but the risk

for Tay Sachs is much greater among Ashkenazi Jews, as are other illnesses. Just as heart disease and diabetes runs in families, some types of cancer are more common in some families. If those families settle in an isolated area (or are isolated by social or religious concerns), you might see more of those problems crop up.

[Ian David]

153. Anyone who thinks being near high voltage causes cancer needs to not lecture on learning facts. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

162. Please define 'stray voltage'

Be as technical as you like. Tell us what the measurement is 1,000 times of. Tell us who measured the 'stray voltage'.

[winter is coming]

164. It's like this... you put out a few capacitors, and the voltage follows you home. n/t

[defacto7]

254. Is stray voltage directly porportional to stray amperes?

How about stray wattage? There could be some stray inductance in stray mH.

[winter is coming]

265. We must always fear stray megaHertz.

That's why we asked Kenneth for the frequency.

[SidDithers]

275. I has a case of the stray megahertz once...

But 10 days worth of antibiotics and it cleared right up.

Sid

[msanthrope]

291. I thought there was a cream for that. nt

[Brickbat]

8. At last! The Siemens statement.

I wish I knew what "curtailing" meant in this context. It's not clear. Does it mean "shut down," like the HEADLINE IMPLIES? Is every model like this now SHUT DOWN?

[winter is coming]

25. It means stopping or slowing, apparently.

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/wind/siemens-shuts-down-wind-turbines-worldwide-after-accident.html

In a statement provided to ReWire, Siemens Energy said it would be "curtailing" -- slowing or shutting down -- all its turbines that use the blade in question

Far from traveling "a mile", this one was flung 150 yards and landed on a jeep trail.

[FBaggins]

116. I don't "get" that. This isn't a passenger aircraft.

They're acting as if potentially significantl safety issues are involved.

Even if there's a design flaw, it isn't as if there's a great deal of risk. The vast majority of turbines that large aren't close enough to much. The chance of a failure is obviously low... combined with the also-low chance of a person being close enough to be hit.

In short - a PR move of little substance.

[winter is coming]

118. I'd say they're hedging their bets.

If another failure occurs before the cause is determined it would be extremely bad for them to have not taken some precautions. Stopping/slowing the turbines will likely decrease the chance of failure if there is a systemic problem. And... if the demand for power in some areas in such that there's pressure to speed the turbines up again, they can say they were "forced" to do it.

[Liberty Belle]

163. This photo shows how close those turbines are too homes - too closer for comfort if a blade fell

Ocotillo and areas targeted next have turbines way too close to homes. McCain Valley a popular camping area will have turbines on both sides of the only road in and out, just 500 feet off the road, 800 or 900 feet form campgrounds. In Ocotillo there are turbines so close to a park where children play that the kids cover their ears because of turbine noise. They are less than a half mile from homes and much closer than that to roads and a freeway.

[RC]

201. Huh, wut?

...so close to a park where children play that the kids cover their ears because of turbine noise.

You think no one else has been close to any wind turbines or something? They are fairly quite. Neither do they turn that fast. You must be thinking of turbines in jet engines or something.

[NYC_SKP]

205. Kids do NOT cover their ears because of turbine noise.

That just simply is not true.

Not true, not at all, no way.

If it WERE true, there would be posts all over DU about it every friggin day.

I'm tempted to go there just to videotape children NOT covering their ears at the playground.

[RC]

213. That's what I said.

They are fairly quite. I have been close up to several, so I know first hand.

[NYC_SKP]

207. I know you've never been there, but those turbines are WAY OFF in the distance.

They're pretty tall, you know.

Also, children are not covering their ears. That's just silly. You shouldn't say such things.

I've provided tours twice to folks, including trips to 1.5 MW Vestas, so bit that you can walk inside the blades.

These at Ocotillo are, I believe, even larger at 2.3 MW.

http://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/renewable-energy/wind-power/wind-turbines/swt-2-3-108.htm

[tammywammy]

212. Liberty Belle wrote the article in the OP.

She's the editor of East County Magazine.

[NYC_SKP]

214. Upon scanning her articles, there's definitely and agenda or bias against energy projects.

Mirriam Rafferty?

Wow.

To be kind, I'll call it mostly NIMBY bias.

[tammywammy]

215. Yeah, I saw a search of the anti-wind articles

There's a clear bias.

[uppityperson]

249. Aha, thank you for that piece of information. eom

[SidDithers]

250. That's an Aha! moment for me...

And, in hindsight, is completely obvious.

Thanks for that.

Sid

[tammywammy]

251. It was mentioned in the Jay Polk thread.

I rembered reading it at the time, and that thread was linked to recently reminding me of it.

[SidDithers]

253. Yeah. Once you posted it here, it clicked...

And I went back to the Polk thread to refresh my memory.

I hate it when I forget stuff. Must be getting old.

Sid

[tammywammy]

255. She should be upfront about it

Especially when it's her article being discussed.

[SidDithers]

256. I agree...nt

Sid

[Brother Buzz]

219. Oh, the magic of the telephoto lens

Last edited Mon May 20, 2013, 01:20 AM - Edit history (2)

You do realize those wind turbines are over half as tall as that bridge in your icon?



On edit: to give it a bit more perspective, those wind turbines are over half again as tall as the The Queen Mary II

[Liberty Belle]

144. They are shut down here, and elsewhere until they inspect all the blades.

Trouble is I don't know if they have determined the cause yet; until they do and can figure out what to fix, they pose a danger if they are allowed to operate again.

This is far from the first time turbine blades have come off. Other manufacturers have also had similar problems. It is obviously not safe to put these on public lands and claim the area "multi use" with hikers and offroaders and campers in amongst the turbines.

[Brickbat]

145. "Here" is meaningless in this context.

Ocotillo? California? The southwestern United States? C'mon, editor; get your act together.

[Gravitycollapse]

10. "Much angst over wind turbines is just hot air"

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/much-angst-over-wind-turbines-is-just-hot-air-20111220-1p3sb.html#ixzz1hAXpQb9z

"Two factors repeatedly stand out. The first is being able to see wind turbines, which increases annoyance particularly in those who dislike or fear them.

The second factor is whether people derive income from hosting turbines, which miraculously appears to be a highly effective antidote to feelings of annoyance and symptoms"

[byeya]

19. I think this turbine farm is on land owned by US citizens and managed by the Bureau

of Land Management.

[Gravitycollapse]

21. And?

[byeya]

24. And, you said people change their minds when hosting turbines which is not the case here.

[Liberty Belle]

154. Most of the people making money are absentee landlords, making their neighbors sick for profit.

AT least that is the case in our region.

[Gravitycollapse]

167. Those neighbors are not sick. Their illnesses are fabrications of their imagination.

[winter is coming]

168. "Can Expectations Produce Symptoms From Infrasound Associated With Wind Turbines?"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23477573 (emphasis mine)

Conclusions: Healthy volunteers, when given information about the expected physiological effect of infrasound, reported symptoms that aligned with that information, during exposure to both infrasound and sham infrasound. Symptom expectations were created by viewing information readily available on the Internet, indicating the potential for symptom expectations to be created outside of the laboratory, in real world settings. Results suggest psychological expectations could explain the link between wind turbine exposure and health complaints.

[MindPilot]

11. I fail to see the problem

So some piece of new technology equipment breaks, and the company that made it moves quickly to mitigate the problem by idling any other pieces of equipment that may have the same problem while the work on a fix.

Sounds like they have done everything right.

[dieter]

13. How Many Threads on this are you going to post?

People in East County must not have much going on. Great journalism from the East County Magazine. Siemens' work for the Nazi's in 1932 and its attempt at that patent application for Zyklon over 12 years ago? Yep, that's really worth reporting.

I guess you didn't get enough good response on the other thread so you threw one out there with a link to an article from second rate magazine that throws Nazi in there to try to gin up some outrage.

Is East County Magazine going to do an exposé on BMW, next and all the atrocities and slave labor they used in WWII? I'm sure you've got some local BMW dealers that are probably ripping off their customers somewhere near by. Or how about throwing out some Japanese companies for scrutiny as well. Mitsubishi, Sumitomo, Nissan. Lot's of slave labor there too.

If you want to talk about corporations that are corrupt on a global scale and try to wind that into an industrial accident story then maybe you might want to link to the stories about over 1,100 people who died in Bangladesh recently and how WalMart and The Gap still don't want to pay safe buildings and fire control systems to protect those workers. Let's talk about corruption and WalMart. Corruption and bribes in Mexico and China - those the ones we know about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Two different stories

Which give you more background information.

I did not write this one. So why not read it and learn something mote, now about Siemens Corporation?

Alternatively, you can hide your head in the sand, put me on ignore, and pretend this never happened.

As to Mexico and Walmart, yup...we covered it in my labor blog, including the crapola suspected by local unions over the Sherman Heights market.

[Brickbat]

16. "I expect as much pushback on this too"

You know, questioning inconsistencies and asking for more information and challenging weak spots in your story isn't "pushback." It doesn't mean that people love Big Oil, or hate alternative forms of energy production, or "don't care about the back country as long as you get your cup of coffee." (Or whatever you said. Seriously, WTF?) It means you wrote an article that's impossible to understand, is riddled with errors, makes lazy assumptions and correlates without proving causation. It's sloppy journalism and gives alternative presses a bad name.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

20. +1

This.

[sad-cafe]

51. Brickbat, you know that Mrs. Nooz reporter is a genius

the rest of us just "don't get it" and if we question the queen we go on her iggy list. How dare you question the mighty?

[rhett o rick]

125. How sad that you think you can ridicule a DU poster. This is not jr. high. nm

[ohiosmith]

126. This post was alerted on. The jury voted 3/3 to let it stand.

At Fri May 17, 2013, 09:39 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Brickbat, you know that Mrs. Nooz reporter is a genius
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2860395

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

No DU poster should be subjected to ridicule as Nadin is in this thread. Ridicule has no place here. If you dont like her then ignore her and dont bully.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri May 17, 2013, 09:46 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Or,....task her to respond coherently! Leave the post.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: People who do ridiculous things and make ridiculous arguments are very valid targets for ridicule.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[winter is coming]

77. Nailed it. n/t

[byeya]

17. If Siemens is shutting down all wind turbines of this model they make, it's

a big deal because Germany is well on its way towards weaning itself from fossil and nuke energy and is depending on wind for part of its energy mix.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. It is a big deal

They are also shutting down Ocotillo until they do the investigation.

News partner video


http://www.10news.com/news/173-foot-blade-falls-off-wind-turbine-in-ocotillo-051613

[Liberty Belle]

142. 60% of Germany's energy comes from solar, nearly all on roofs and parking lots.

Wind has not been very successful there from what a German energy expert said speaking last week in San Diego. The Germans have wised up that industrial-scale remote projects that trash the environment, whether industrial wind or solar, is not the best way to go -- small scale wind turbines on homes (vertical axis models) and rooftop/parking lot solar is safer and cleaner, and also more efficient since you lose up to 30% of power when you transmit it over long distances. Better to make power where it is used.

[winter is coming]

149. Got some links for that? Which "German energy expert"? Why/where was he speaking?

Where's the documentation that Germans have "wised up" and are now favoring small-scale wind turbines?

[jpak]

295. Actually, she is partially correct - Germany has produced 50% of its power from solar

on two days...

Germany sets new solar power record, institute says

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/26/us-climate-germany-solar-idUSBRE84P0FI20120526

(Reuters) - German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity per hour - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity - through the midday hours on Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank said.

The German government decided to abandon nuclear power after the Fukushima nuclear disaster last year, closing eight plants immediately and shutting down the remaining nine by 2022.

They will be replaced by renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and bio-mass.

Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry (IWR) in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power per hour fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50 percent of the nation's midday electricity needs.

<more>

[winter is coming]

297. Yes, I know that Germany makes far better use of solar power than we do.

The claim was that Germany has "wised up" and is abandoning large-scale wind and solar projects in favor of small-scale, distributed power. Looks like nuclear power is what's being abandoned.

[muriel_volestrangler]

166. Bullshit. 5% of german electricity comes from solar; 7% from wind

Solar photovoltaics (solar PV) continued its meteoric growth in 2012. Solar PV generated 29 TWh in 2012 or nearly 5% of total generation. Wind accounted for a little more than 7% of generation and biomass provided nearly 6% of generation.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/03/2012-german-nuclear-gas-fired-generation-falls-further-while-renewables-grow

Are you a professional journalist?

[WCLinolVir]

241. Read a little more please. Solar power is dominant during the day, providing up to 50 percent

of daytime electrical needs. The average will differ of course because apparently what they lack are ways to store solar produced power that would enable them to use it more productively. hence the total percent is lower because there are more dark hours than light, and some days are better than others. Overall solar is 3-10 percent of renewable energy when one considers the whole 24 hour period.

[NYC_SKP]

245. No, you are wrong and Muriel is correct. For Germany, it's about 3% of the total elec. mix.

3% of the total mix and 15% of the total renewable subset of the mix.

See my post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2869293

Of course, at certain times of day solar photovoltaic would produce a far larger share of the power but the original claim by libertybell of 60% is utter bullshit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

259. The statement was not "there has been some point at which solar once provided 50%

of the instantaneous need". It was "60% of Germany's energy comes from solar, nearly all on roofs and parking lots". Your figure, wherever it comes from, is not '60%' ('up to' is also a qualifier that makes numbers almost meaningless); Liberty Belle said nothing about measuring it at any particular time of day or the year; LB went on to disparage wind power (which is their real purpose here), although wind power generated more electrical energy that solar in Germany last year.

LB's post remains bullshit, and the motive behind it - to attack wind power - is highly dubious.

[Ms. Toad]

262. A little high school math should prompt you to question your sources.

Something which provides 50% of daytime need - even generously assuming nighttime need was equal to daytime need (which it isn't), and that 12 hours = daytime and 12 hours = nighttime (which it doesn't) solar power would then would produce 25% of all needed electricity.

Yet you say that it is 3-10% of renewable energy over 24 hours. Renewable energy is not 100% of all energy consumed. But even generously assuming that it is (and that night time need is equal to daytime need), and that the daytime period is equal to the night time period, that would make it 20% maximum of all energy consumed.

But - generally daytime need is far higher than nighttime need (the basis for differential rates which charge a premium for electrical use during the day, and for daylight savings time), and renewable is a small fraction of all energy consumed at this point. Those two facts alone should be a big elbow in the side to check further.

[SidDithers]

263. German solar provided 3% of total electricity in 2011...

it's probably a bit higher in 2012.

Pardon wiki as a source, but it's a good compiler of info from other sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany

Sid

[NYC_SKP]

217. *Wrong!* OMG, this is ignorance. Please. Are you really the editor at East County Magazine?

/$file/EM_2012E_S_16_std.jpg



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

Among renewables only, more WIND than solar:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/RE_Germany_2009_pie_chart.svg

[mainer]

22. I did not know that scores of Germans were being killed

by monstrous turbine blades slicing into their houses. This truly is a revelation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Since the article actually says that....

NOT

[mainer]

27. Ummm.... sarcasm?

since obviously dozens of Germans (where wind power is so much a part of their infrastructure) are NOT being killed by wind power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. They are having the same kind of medical issues

This is a just emerging story.

Wind is good, but what these turbines are doing will poison the well to far superior wind technology.

[Gravitycollapse]

34. There is no evidence that infrasound from wind turbines has ill effects on human beings.

[winter is coming]

64. Maybe this emerging story should emerge in the direction of explaining

how and why "far superior wind technology" is better than the current installation. A lucid, credible explanation would be far more persuasive than stuff that verges on Creative Speculation.

[uppityperson]

95. Link to reputable source showing they are "having the same kind of medical issues" as I would like

to see it. If they are, we should know about it so please post a link. Doing a search, I can not find information on it and would like to read more.Thank you.

[MNBrewer]

296. If you weren't blocking me for having rightly challenged your "science"

You would see my request that you provide evidence of such "health issues" emerging in Germany. Just saying they are isn't proof at all. It isn't even suggestion. It's just opinion.

[byeya]

39. I think the main point is that if all Siemens wind turbines in Germany are being taken off

line, that will have significant economic repercussions for that country. If it turns out the metallurgy is flawed, then a whole new way of making the vanes will have to be invented and then tested before the turbines are running again. That may or may not be the case but it's a good thing to know so that the system can be inspected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. This is an industry site

Not retry.

http://www.windaction.org/news/c48/?sort=title&letter=S

[nebenaube]

91. if it failed like I think, then it was the mounting bolts...

Nothing else I have ever seen would rely on that many of those small 'flange' studs. Especially something of that mass. I'd think they'd go with two or three concentric rings of what they're using now.

[NYC_SKP]

218. No, just turbines that use that specific blade design. New design. Probably a small number.

2.3 MW, big ones but not the biggest out there.

http://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/renewable-energy/wind-power/wind-turbines/swt-2-3-108.htm

[WCLinolVir]

242. Uhmm, no, ridicule.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

26. its ok its not like that nuke station where they had to use buckets

and have a save zone the size of half the uk

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. ????? I keep up with this shit

You are talking Chernobyl, in the Ukraine, a continent away from the UK literally.

Yup, geography matters, and you had me scratching my head for a second

[Rise Rebel Resist]

176. Japan

[Wednesdays]

189. Three Mile Island.

[treestar]

31. Do these things get inspected for safety?

Moving parts and all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. In theory.

The other story I posted in the morning has a probable explanation, harmonics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022857460

[freshwest]

319. How about manufacturing defects? This shouldn't have happened. Infrastructure should last for years.

[TeeYiYi]

32. You've been asked nicely...

...to please stop posting your OPs in all caps. Why do you continue?

I've supported and defended you at every turn. I've come to your defense in the past with letters to the admin. I even voted to leave your last all-caps post about wind turbines alone when it was alerted on today.

So, what gives? Nobody enjoys all-caps posts, including me. Why do you keep doing it?

TYY

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Because they are coming straight from the paper

It's the paper style sheet. If it's an OP I write, or a post in my blog, I don't use all caps.

This is actually petty as an excuse.

Serious, once again in bolded letters it is the paper's style sheet.

I copy and paste from papers around the country... I will not change one iota from that copy and paste. It happens to be that this is the East County's style sheet.

I got no clue what is so damn difficult, and I will add petty, to understand about that.

[TeeYiYi]

45. It's simply a request...

...to be considerate. You could edit your headlines.

The decision is clearly yours.

TYY

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. It's coming straight from a damn paper

Copy, paste, whatever...if people don't like it, contact the editor. Serious.

To me it looks petty beyond belief. And yes, familiar with netiquette, but also with nettiquete as how it pertains to news articles

[TeeYiYi]

55. People are contacting you...

...as a member of the DU community.

re: ”...if people don't like it, contact the editor.”

Oh well, do what you want. I won't mention it again.

TYY

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. I am just telling you what it is

Personally the all caps is not my fave either, but it is what it is...and that is a style sheet.

I also know a good percentage of posters would rather I did the same thing many others have done before, shut up and go away. That is the honest, brutal truth.

But serious, my own ops don't start with caps.

[aquart]

184. Thank God.

[uppityperson]

94. We are contacting you and asking to please change to not all caps. It is easy to do, please.

[RC]

211. WHO CARES?

That was the original headline. A SIMPLE COPY N PASTE. If you have a problem with ALL CAPS, don't click on it.

[winter is coming]

52. Well, if you're so proficient at cut and paste...

Copy the title and paste into a new Word document. Hit Format-->Change Case-->Title Case. Copy result into the title of your OP. Takes less than a minute (far less if you already have Word open).

e.g., Ocotillo Wind Turbine Throws Off Multi-Ton Blade, Prompting World-Wide Shut Down Of Similar Turbines

[Ms. Toad]

83. The question I would ask is how many other posts

with the caption in all caps generate the kind of discussion about it (to frame it politely) that these two threads have?

I was on a jury for the first thread - by someone who apparently believes that using all caps is a violation of community standards.

ALL CAPS IS RUDE. Considered to be yelling on discussion forums. Poster refuses to acknowledge the bad behavior later in the thread and even puts long-time nadin-defender on her infamous iggy list!

hide this for all-caps rudeness.

I don't believe, for an instant, that the requests - or the alert - have anything to do with the captions being all caps. It isn't my favorite style, and I have seen people make requests to users who write entire posts in all caps, but I do not believe I have seen anyone else jumped on (certainly not with this level of intensity) for a style issue. I am not making any substantive commentary on the subject matter of the two threads (or picking on you specifically). It is just the only jury out of 183 I've been on where - as far as I'm concerned - there was absolutely no basis for the alert, other than a personal beef with the poster. I have been watching this ridiculous pile-on all day long, and have been looking for a place to say that as far as I'm concerned, it makes DU suck big time.

A sampling of other current (at least one post in the last 24 hours) GD threads with all caps for part of all of the OP caption or a post in the the thread, with no similar complaints:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022857272
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022855209
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022858966
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022855889
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022860026
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022859187
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022858409
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022856640
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022855713

[polly7]

87. Good point Ms. Toad.

I'm also guilty of posting a title in all caps. I did pause and consider changing it but decided to be true to the article and post it as it was. Sometimes you're just not sure what to do ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101663471

[Ms. Toad]

92. I only consider it an issue

when someone, repeatedly, posts large quantities of text in a post in all caps. That just makes it hard to read. That still wouldn't make it a violation of community standards. But, particularly if it is something I'm interested in I would gently suggest would be easier to read if it was not all caps (in the same way I might suggest someone use paragraph breaks, or some punctuation or capitalization.

In captions, though - not a big deal. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone complain about captions (as opposed to post text) before. The reaction just seems so much more over the top than the "offense."

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Thanks, and I will restate what I have said

It is not my favorite style either, why I do not use it in my blog, or here when the article is mine.

This is the paper's style sheet.

It is a pile on (the little I have seen since most is from people who are being ignored with damn good reason) but it is DU...and a certain loud ( and ignored) minority, would prefer if I went away.

My philosophy at this point is that these people will pile on just about on anything they got a chance on. This is about harassing and driving a poster they don't like away. The owners should have done something about this a long time ago, they won't. So I do the only thing I can do online, ignore the bullies.

Now back to the subject at hand.

But thanks, I really appreciate it.

And for the record, it's easy when I am quoting the paper, and when I am not

[TeeYiYi]

88. I was on the same jury...

...so, you know how I voted.

It just seems to me that doubling down with a second version of the same theme in all caps is ”poking the badger.” Hard to defend.

TYY

[Ms. Toad]

101. If I was nadin -

I would have made a different choice about which battles were worth fighting. As an adult, I have been known to dig my heels in about things no one else seems to care about - but there is nearly always a (generally moral) principle I care about involved. I wouldn't put style sheets in that category.

But - when I was in middle school there were a couple of girls who delighted in pushing me into whatever figurative corner they could, just so that I would be forced, over and over again, to choose which battles were worth fighting; choices most of my classmates did not have to make because they were not pushed into nearly as many corners as I was. It is exhausting and there were times I wanted to (and I may have) just dig my heels in just to make a point even on really trivial things. I have rarely encountered that kind of behavior as an adult, and while I hope I would just walk away (or respond, "Sure - if it makes it easier for you to read," I suppose I don't really know how I know how I might react.

[winter is coming]

100. That's a ridiculous reason to alert on someone.

That said, the problem isn't that Nadin initially chose to use all caps. The problem is that she insisted on using all caps, and then made up a lot of bullshit excuses as to why that was necessary. (Complying with TOS. Complying with LBN guidelines. She just cuts and pastes and therefore "can't" change.)

The content of the OP was the sort of melodramatic woo Nadin appears to be well-known for, and that is responsible for a lot of the so-called pile-on. Long-term rule of the internet: you post ridiculous shit, you get ridiculed. Don't pretend knowledge of or competence in a subject you don't possess. Yeah, she probably gets less slack than other DUers, but she appears to have made that bed herself.

[Ms. Toad]

107. So who cares.

There is really no reason she should have to change (so "insisting" on using all caps shouldn't even be noteworthy). And - no one else in the list of posts I provided who used all caps within the last day was asked to change (or to justify why they weren't changing) .

If you don't buy the content - have a good discussion about the content. But at one point, about half that thread was discussion over the style of the caption.

[rhett o rick]

127. Ahh the rationalization. She deserves to be bullied. Her post was ridiculous therefore she deserves

to get bullied. And your justification is that it is "a long-term rule of the internet" and therefore you couldnt help yourself. It's childish behavior. If you think Nadin's posts are ridiculous, then ignore them instead of viewing it as an opportunity to get with your friends and ridicule her.

[winter is coming]

128. LOL. I was already composing a response to one of your "this isn't junior high" posts, so

I might as well put it here.

This isn't junior high. This is a pattern I've seen many times on the internet.

Poster A posts something unfounded and ill-formed. Often this initial post tries to inflate a pedestrian event into a controversy, crisis, or scandal. Posters B through K make replies along the lines of "Huh?" "That doesn't make sense." "Got a link for that?" "But what about…?" and "What bullshit!", while exposing Poster A's inexpert knowledge and/or shaky reasoning.

Poster A's responses evade rather than clarify, and classically accuse those who question him of being ignorant or corrupt. Sometimes links are provided, but they rarely say what Poster A claims they do. Often, initial arguments are tentatively discarded when challenged; Poster A claims, "but that's not what this is really about," yet he will circle back to discredited arguments in other sub-threads as if nothing has happened.

About this time, Posters L through S show up and decry the "bullying" that Poster A is undergoing by having his posts disproven and ridiculed. They are either unaware of or indifferent to the fact that Poster A has repeatedly made bogus claims and tossed insults like confetti. It's okay for Poster A to make specious assertions and insult others, but no one's supposed to expose Poster A or insult him in return. The "mature" thing is to let his bullshit stand and move on.

The next step in this little drama is usually some sort of GCBW post. Or posts. Sometimes the "I'm going to leave this place!" declarations go on for a good long while, with Posters T through Z and some of Posters L through S saying, "Don't go! Don't go!" If Poster A actually leaves, he will reappear shortly after vowing to never return. And then the cycle begins again.

And here's the thing: Poster A is never going to stop. He feeds on the drama. Whether I say nothing or rebut every absurd assertion, there will always be a new controversy, so there is no end to be served by suffering in silence.

I name bullshit when I see it. You, of course, are free to choose differently.

[Democracyinkind]

129. For what it's worth

IMO you have nailed this thread. There's blame on all sides, and this is how it usually goes.

[pecwae]

130. If an explanation

of this phenomenon was ever as concise, truthful and absolutely spot on as yours, then I've never read it. Great post!

[maddezmom]

132. ^^^^nailed it^^^^

[rhett o rick]

136. Sorry but I think your rationalization for ridiculing a DU poster is weak.

You essentially are saying she deserves to be ridiculed. I dont agree. If she isnt breaking the rules she deserves to be treated with respect.

Attack the post, not the poster. Why is it necessary to make multiple posts in the same thread, call for "back up", follow a poster from thread to thread, to disparage and ridicule them? What is your goal? Are you trying to intimidate her? Force her to stop posting? Maybe you want her to quit like others have before her.

Why does it bother you so that Poster A is never going to stop? Why do you think it's your responsibility to make them stop? And even go as far as getting your friends to help you make them stop. Do you feel more justified "making them stop" when there is a number of you all trying to make them stop.

[winter is coming]

137. Wow, there's so many straw men there, I don't know where to start.

For starters, I wouldn't classify most of the other people also questioning Nadin's behavior as "my friends". No offense to them, but I don't really know them. It's common for the "stop bullying so-and-so" posters to assume that the skeptics are BFFs planning a coordinated attack, but that's usually not the case. When a broad number of people are laughing at someone else's posts, it usually means the posts are laughable, not that there's a vast conspiracy to suppress Poster A.

It's common for Poster A and the "stop bullying" crowd to claim that there's an attempt to intimidate/silence Poster A. Nope. Don't confuse an unwillingness to accept bullshit at face value with intimidation. When you see multiple posts asking Poster A to substantiate his claims, it's because Poster A is dodging the requests, not because someone's trying to intimidate him.

It doesn't particularly bother me that Poster A will never stop, nor do I feel it's my responsibility to make anyone stop. Over the years, I've sometimes chosen to rebut the bullshit and on other occasions have decided I'm tired of even looking at Poster A's crap and moved on to something else. Nor do I care how many other people agree/disagree with me when I choose to engage Poster A.

As for ridiculing Poster A, I don't have much respect for someone who isn't debating on the level and see no virtue in pretending I do.

[rhett o rick]

138. Speaking of strawmen, I have no problem with asking for validation of claims.

My problem is the attacking of the poster with ridicule and derision. This thread is full of it.

What is the goal of the ridicule? Especially by a group? Is the poster's behavior so bad that it justifies the ridicule and mocking?

Apparently your rationalization is the key to your happiness. I just hope you dont drive this poster from DU just because she isnt like you.

[winter is coming]

139. "Is the poster's behavior so bad that it justifies the ridicule and mocking?"

In my eyes, yes. In yours, apparently not. Fascinating how you continually focus on how more than one person is objecting to the OP and how mean you think it is, while thoroughly ignoring the precipitating behavior.

[RC]

223. Oh really?

139. "Is the poster's behavior so bad that it justifies the ridicule and mocking?"

In my eyes, yes.

Are you justifying the bullying of another DU member? That could very easily be considered to be disruptive.
And as for more than one person objecting to the OP, So what? There is a whole group here known for their lock-step vilipendous posts for not toeing their latest du jour. Talk about thoroughly ignoring the precipitating behavior.
Nadin did a simple copy and paste of an all caps headline. A more mature person would realize that and would let it go and move on.

One more thing: Don't push your luck.

The DU Community Standards state: "It is the responsibility of all DU members to participate in a manner that promotes a positive atmosphere and encourages good discussions among a diverse community of people holding a broad range of center-to-left viewpoints." Members who demonstrate a pattern of disruptive behavior over time and end up getting too many of their posts hidden by the jury (measured by raw number or percentage) may be found to be in violation of our Terms of Service. If you seem to be ruining this website for a large proportion of our visitors, if we think the community as a whole would be better off without you here, if you are constantly wasting the DU Administrators' time, if you seem to oppose the mission of DU, or if the DU Administrators just don't like you, we will revoke your posting privileges. Remember: DU is supposed to be fun — don't make it suck.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[winter is coming]

224. Pointing out that someone else's post is ridiculous isn't bullying.

I'm not required to accept the OP's assertions at face value, or pretend I do.

[hrmjustin]

225. I find it sad that people feel the need to make bullying Nadin a hobby. I am all for

challenging an individual but some people are just out and out bullying her.

[Gravitycollapse]

226. She said that wind turbines give you cancer. That's the kind of shit they medicate you over.

[hrmjustin]

228. Look I don't always agree with her but people here make it a sport to go after her.

[Gravitycollapse]

229. Well, she made the sport popular.

I have a pet peeve and that is people who try to sell garbage science as some sort of conspiratorial revelation and then act as though they are being persecuted for saying things that are completely and utterly insane and/or stupid.

[hrmjustin]

231. I am not talking about the Op or her views. I am talking about the swarm that lives to

Ridicule her. Again challenge her views, I am not talking about that.

[Gravitycollapse]

232. Let's not kid ourselves. She foments those attacks.

[hrmjustin]

233. As I said I don't always agree with her, but there are those here who live to ridicule her.

This has been going on for a long time. Longer than I have been here. We should remember it takes two to tango.

[winter is coming]

237. "We should remember it takes two to tango."

But from what I've seen, she puts people on ignore at the drop of a hat. Any hat. So who is she dancing with?

The possibilities would appear to be:
1) She announces she's putting people on ignore, but doesn't actually ignore them.
2) She puts people on ignore and later takes them off, re-engaging and re-ignoring the same people over and over.
3) She perpetually draws in a fresh crop of "challengers".
4) A lot of the people you believe are bullying her are actually people she has on ignore, and she can't see their words.

Which is it?

[hrmjustin]

243. Look there are people who live to torment her here. I find that childish.

There are people who have legit challenges to her beliefs, that is what this site is for.

1-I have no idea who she has on or keeps on ignore.
2-same answer.
3-Yes she draws new challengers which I always find interesting.
4-Yes there are bullies and they know who they are. Whether she keeps all of them on ignore I do not know. I will take her at her word. She has always been honest with me.

I recently became a host and I see it more often now. It gets very ugly at times.

[muriel_volestrangler]

260. She enjoys this - she's changed her signature to

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger, pass the relish". Her beliefs on this subject are not just wrong, they support the right wing, and are fear-mongering - such as the claim of a 'cancer cluster', which she has not substantiated in any way.

Nadin is a disruptive presence on DU, and needs to be countered, on a progressive site.

[hrmjustin]

264. I am all for challenging her opinions, that is what this site is for.

You do it very well, but others are not out to challenge but to ridicule. That I don't like. I don't like some of the tactics they use. As I said before I don't always agree with her but she has always been honest with me.

[NYC_SKP]

227. I'm supportive and defensive of Nadin, I don't like the bullying.

I've defended her several times and like to think of her as a friend.

This OP and the article (not hers) about wind, however, is full of bad science and misinformation, most of it NOT her doing.

Which is not to say that there isn't bullying, in fact there is, but there's also a lot of heated discussion that has nothing to do with her or her body of work.

[hrmjustin]

230. My friend I am not talking about questioning her OP.

You had a legit question for her. I am talking about those who make it a sport to go after her.

[NYC_SKP]

234. It is sad.

And I like her, she works hard to get useful information posted and takes a beating from a handful, and it is just a handful, of members here.

[hrmjustin]

235. I really did not pay much attention to it until I became a host.

Just really sad.

[NYC_SKP]

236. And I was a moderator for many years.

So our experience is similar, some nastiness among our community membership.

[IdaBriggs]

279. I have had a different experience with some of the folk responding with derision to the post.

About one year ago I witnessed a breakthrough moment in understanding, possibly preventing, and definitely treating neuromuscular issues. It was "a miracle moment" that left me shaking as "everything" that "everybody" knew literally turned upside down. An "incurable" condition had improved for a 9-year old girl - and I was NOT an expert on the topic, but knew just enough to know that "something major" had happened.

It was Friday, June 8, 2012, and I didn't sleep for two days while I attempted to grasp the ramifications of what was going on. I reached out to DU, the thread sunk into oblivion (I thought), and so I reached out in "real life" for information.

Several hours later I came back to discover that the thread had popped up/gotten locked as "off-topic", I was being vilified as all kinds of bad, and shortly thereafter I was introduced to the snake-pit of "meta" where I became the recipient of some of the most insulting, rude and obnoxious comments I had *ever* had aimed at me as a DU member since 2004. Most of them were of the "you snake oil salesman, you!" variety (despite the fact I was not and never have sold *anything* and the volunteer work I do for our non-profit is purely VOLUNTEER).

It didn't matter what I said - I was "bad" - and while I eventually did get some "revenge" by getting to quote some of the idiotic and arsine comments in the video put up to explain what was happening, the reality was that a bunch of "nay sayers" (many of whom I recognize for the fact that their comments are nearly word for word what they said to me last year - lol!) are minimizing and dismissing what sounds like some legitimate issues - because "cancer clusters" are all imaginary and large pieces of industrial equipment that "fall off" due to bad engineering designs aren't a problem (unless it is happening in your back yard).

I have been blessed with a tenacious nature. Idiots on the internet who were bluntly hurting my feelings with their vicious attacks (not hidden because it was "meta&quot could have very easily driven me away from either DU or the Project. One must always take the attacks of clever mean people with the grain of salt they deserve. (I myself do not come to this discussion with perfectly clean hands - I recently made one of the most sarcastic and condescending posts "explaining" how sex makes babies and why telling someone to get an abortion doesn't absolve you of paying child support!)

But since I know the folk attacking both the article and the reporter in question are really not nice, credible people, plus I know that I was telling the truth, while they decided to willfully ignore the evidence I was comfortable providing, I am going to assume that the issues being raised are REAL. If it turns out to be easily fixable (*drat! we used the wrong type of fastener!* - Lil!), then yeah! If it turns out to be imaginary, it will fade.

In the meantime, this post will kick the thread. I'd like to stay informed about what is going on -- people rarely imagine cancer, and since we are still learning what causes it or makes one person more susceptible than another, I can only wish the best for all involved while it is investigated.

Screw the "ny ah, ny ah, we don't like what you are saying!" brigade.

Kick.

[WCLinolVir]

188. Let's talk about your content shall we? You do not, I believe have a degree in the

medical field or any field that included a basic understanding of research parameters, or what actually constitutes a study. Nor it seems, do you have a background in genetics, as you suggested that a cancer cluster might be because of "inbreeding" in an isolated indigenous population. You apparently don't understand either, what the dominate risk factors for cancer are, unless breast cancer or ovarian cancer are predominate. Which would usually only include women.
As for stray current or ground current which has you so confused-
"Stray Voltage" is merely another name for electrical ground
current.
• Electrical ground current is electrical current returning to the
substation through the earth.
• Electrical ground currents occur when the utility's wire is no
longer the path of least resistance back to the substation.
• Electricity always follows the path of least resistance.
• Once it is off the wire, that path often includes plumbing, people, animals, etc.
Apparently you don't have an understanding of electricity either.
I notice that your posts are an attempt to discredit, but your greatest success is discrediting yourself.

[winter is coming]

202. Let me tell you someting I'm very clear on, regarding research.

You don't trumpet your hypothesis as a proven conclusion. To demonstrate a cluster, you have to show that there's an above-expected incidence, and thus far, I've only see references to anecdotal reports. There may be a cluster, but that hasn't been confirmed.

As for genetics, you apparently don't understand that genetics can play an important role in disease, including cancer. Yes, environment is important, and environmental factors could certainly be at play here if there's a cluster, but with a group living in relative isolation genetics might be a factor, as could other things like contaminants in the water supply.

Stray voltage? Where do you imagine all this voltage is coming from? Are we supposed to think that the turbines are so poorly designed that significant amounts of stray voltage are gadding about, waiting to zap unwary cows? I'd like to see some documentation for that.

[WCLinolVir]

208. Obviously never worked for either the railroad or a power company.

Actually I understand genetics, so why not respond to what I said, and not what I didn't. Voltage gadding about??? Enough said. Ding, ding, we have a winner.

[winter is coming]

216. I did respond to what you said.

You apparently missed that, as you missed that "voltage gadding about" was sarcasm.

If these turbines were so badly designed or poorly maintained that they represent a danger, something should be done, but I've yet to see any proof that they are a problem. And statements like "Obviously never worked for either the railroad or a power company" don't constitute proof.

[WCLinolVir]

238. Nice ambiguity but don't attribute remarks to me that I have not made. I never asked for, nor

offered proof. I never made a single mention of design or maintenance, only you, trying obfuscate your ignorance. Turbines are more than just a spinning propeller. That they can be a hazard is irrefutable.
You remind of those paid shills who used to crusade in the media about the lack of evidence of climate change. They made the same characterizations of serious concerns that were designed to promote ridicule and silence detractors. Now hear me, I am not saying to what extent wind turbines constitute a hazard, or associating them with an increase in cancer. As for your comment about I don't understand genetics, I have two degrees in the medical field, and understand the subject fairly well. You probably don't know a recessive from a dominant. I used to work for the railroad designing electrical circuits and my ex worked for the power company. I know all too well the corners corporations are willing to cut when it comes to public safety.

[winter is coming]

240. There are still paid shills crusading about the lack of evidence for climate change.

They willfully ignore a body of peer-reviewed literature. There is a difference between rejecting peer-reviewed evidence and asking for peer-reviewed (or otherwise documented) evidence. I don't have an emotional or financial stake in wind turbines, I just hate junk science.

[WCLinolVir]

244. Could not care less. Your tactics are what I am talking about.

Junk science? Like inbreeding causes cancer?

[winter is coming]

246. Please don't misquote me.

I said "one of the things the study will need to rule out is the possible effect of inbreeding among a remote, isolated population." That's not "inbreeding causes cancer". That's "unfavorable genes are more likely to turn up in a limited gene pool". Genetics can play a role in diseases, including cancer, which is why doctors ask for family history.

[muriel_volestrangler]

261. Note that the claim from Liberty Belle, Nadin's colleague and the author of some of the articles

is that the 'stray voltage' '1000 times normal' is 'in the home'. This is not, however, about a fault in the electrical system of the people's homes, or the transmission system. It's about a turbine generator approximately a mile away. What ground current do you think is being measured in that case? What do you think the normal value is? And how do you think a generator that far away is an unwanted current to ground inside someone's home?

This is why we think the invocation of 'stray voltage' is meaningless crap, invoked by a journalist who doesn't know what it means, but wants to pander to their right wing NIMBY readers, and so throws any old accusation at the wind turbines, hoping it will impress someone. Notice also that in #147, LB claims this 'stray voltage' can cause cancer. That is a horrible example of fear-mongering, and without foundation.

[patrice]

109. +++1!

[pecwae]

258. Thank you. nt

[L0oniX]

303. There is no consistancy with the jury system alerts and results.

I agree ...many times the alert system is used because of a jihad against the poster ...even coordinated at times. It's changing DU for the worse.

[NYC_SKP]

315. You Rock, Ms. Toad.

[Ms. Toad]

316. Thanks -

I just wish it didn't seem to be falling on deaf ears (at least as far as anyone who might be able to make a difference).

[sad-cafe]

35. your almost 300 reply thread wasn't enough? Who gets to "hug a turbine" this time around

how many are on your iggy list now?

[Junkdrawer]

40. In my best FDR voice..."Yesterday, May 16, 2013 - a date which will live in infamy....

the residents of Ocotillo were suddenly and deliberately attacked by a flying turbine blade which flew for over a mile."

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. How small world of you

I guess as long as you get your juice all is well in the world.

[Gravitycollapse]

43. The idea that an 11 ton blade from a turbine could fly for a mile is absurd.

[byeya]

54. Scotland advises a two kilometer separation from housing because of the failures large wind turbines

are prone to.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. Demonstrate to me how an 11 ton blade from a turbine could fly a mile?

Do you understand the physics involved with such a feat?

[Codeine]

86. "Coming up on Mythbusters. . ." nt

[Junkdrawer]

112. Q: How many JATOs to "Duplicate the Results"???

Hell, Pumpkin Chuckers can't throw a 9–18 lbs squash a mile (yet) with air cannons the size of Paris Guns

[byeya]

273. Parts of a blade that failed traveled a mile. That, in part, is why nations are establishing a 2km

distance of housing from a wind turbine.

[winter is coming]

278. In Kansas. During a tornado. What else traveled a mile or more during that tornado? n/t

Last edited Mon May 20, 2013, 02:56 PM - Edit history (1)

[Gravitycollapse]

281. Jars of pickles, farm animals, pieces of houses...

Etc

[NYC_SKP]

185. No, they don't. Scotland does not have a two-kilometer exclusion zone.

Some groups advocate for that, is all.

Concerns about the proximity of wind turbines to residential property can arise
for a number of reasons, including visual intrusion, noise, health and
economic impact (for example, in relation to house prices). Some people
consider that an exclusion zone is desirable to address some or all of these
impacts.

Others argue (for example, in a debate on the issue in the House of
Commons that exclusion zones can actually have an adverse knock-on
impact by “increasing the pressure on rural areas, including areas of
outstanding natural beauty and national parks, to accept wind turbines that
local people oppose [and can] harm the prospects for wind energy in many
places where it is supported by local people.”

As regards a generic exclusion zone, the Institute of Engineering and
Technology states that “Most impacts are site specific. Noise, for example,
may be negligible at one site, but noticeable at another”. There is a body of
opinion that where noise is concerned, the level of noise (related to the type
and size of turbine) is of more importance than distance from the turbine.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/Petitions%20briefings%20S3/PB10-1328.pdf

[winter is coming]

44. Wow. A mile is a lot shorter than it used to be. n/t

[Junkdrawer]

50. Creative license.

"The blade fell harmlessly to the ground" doesn't have the same ring, does it?

[Codeine]

74. Nadin often finds difficulty with measurements.

I remember her posting something about six feet of hail in Mexico City once. God that was an epic thread. . .

[SidDithers]

93. That was because she told us there were 60cm in a metre...nt

Sid

[Brother Buzz]

99. It's hard to tell after the termites ate most of it...

Is this the epic thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=410322

[Codeine]

106. DU CELEB HURLS POSTS INTO MEMORY HOLE, PROMPTING THREAD-WIDE SHUTDOWN OF SNARK nt

[Rex]

267. Looks like she admitted to making it all up out of whole cloth

and of course deleted the thread OP so no one else could reply.

[Brother Buzz]

274. NO, she did not make it up. It DID hail in Mexico City

But I suspect in her rush to report, she skimped on a little fact-checking and confirmation from another source, and chose to fixate on one story of a reporter standing and poking a stick in a pile of hailstones to show how deep it was, not comprehending that the accumulated hailstones had washed down a gully by the ensuing rains.

She was smart to scrub that post because she was extremely rude to people that even questioned the validity of that story. People who posted links and photos that contradicted her narrative were placed on her world famous "Iggy" list.

[Rex]

276. The part about 6 feet she did!

I know it hailed in Mexico, but not 6 feet!

[Brother Buzz]

277. I attribute that to her fuzzy math

Remember, she informed us 30 cm equals a yard.

[tammywammy]

283. No, it was there are 60cm in a meter.

She insisted again and again it was 60cm.

[Brother Buzz]

284. Well, there you have it

But then again, one could correctly argue there are, indeed, 60 cm in a meter.....with room to spare.

[Liberty Belle]

155. Boulevard's Planning Group Chair has testified that a blade flew over 3/4 of a mile here in the past

We also had blade sections whirl off of blades near a freeway a couple of years ago.

The ones in Ocotillo, some of them, are close enough to damage cars if a blade came down there. It doesn't have to go a mile to do major damage. And even if it falls straight down, people on this public land regularly walk directly beneath the blades. Even more so in McCain Valley, public land targeted next for wind. There are campgrounds 800 or 900 feet from the blades there and nothing to prevent people from walking right up to the very base of the turbines since these are public lands and they can't just throw the public off. Sometimes when blades come off, they take a whole turbine down with it. Not at all safe.

[winter is coming]

160. Wow. Must have made the news. Got a link?

Odd that people are silly enough to walk directly beneath the blades. I thought wind farms were usually fenced.

[winter is coming]

165. What is a Planning Group Chair? How does one become one? Is it you? n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

170. Your planning group chair is either mistaken or lying.

The physics behind an 11 ton blade flying 3/4 of a mile is mind boggling.

[winter is coming]

172. It's the stray voltage that does the trick.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

174. As I said in the other thread...not if Michael Bay helps out.

Then it'll take out the entire EARTH!

[winter is coming]

270. The Boulevard Planning Group chair appears to be Donna Tisdale.

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2013/05/04/backcountry-residents-to-hold-press-conference-downtown-monday-to-oppose-wind-ordinance-and-boulevard-plan-amendment/

who is also the Secretary of the Protect Our Communities Foundation. The bio in this link describes herself as a retired rancher/farmer.

http://protectourcommunities.org/about/board-and-staff/

So, the witness for this "3/4 of a mile" claim has a dog in this fight. Did anyone else witness it?

[Kali]

42. omg

what kind of asshole does this kind of shit?

[jberryhill]

47. Has it been leaking wind? Will there be an evacuation?

[msongs]

57. don't let the dweebs get you down, nadin. nobody is forcing them to read your posts :-) nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Most are getting actively ignored

Which boggles the mind actually

[NYC_SKP]

80. Results of the hidden reply below yours- by sad-cafe:

Transparency!

At Fri May 17, 2013, 08:34 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

because your "iggy list" is probably longer than the number of posters who post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2860502

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This is OTT and disruptive. Whether or not anyone likes Nadin, attacking her and not addressing the topic of the thread but making it about her is wrong.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri May 17, 2013, 08:47 PM, and the Jury voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: This thread has turned into a piling on of personal attacks and other posts are even worse, IMO. But this particular post is calling out another DUer. I think the entire thread should be locked at this point as it has degenerated into an attack on the OP.


Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Agree with alert. Hi Nadin!
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Absolutely agree with alerter. HIDE
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: OK because (1) The entire thread has a strident tone, and I wouldn't siingle out that particular post as the inappropriate one, and (2) the previous post made a specific reference to the practice of "actively ignoring members," so the subject was fair game.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[pinboy3niner]

71. BUT SHE'S HOLDING A GUN ON ME!

Sorry for shouting, but all caps is the style I always use WHEN SOMEONE'S HOLDING A GUN ON ME.

[Warpy]

59. No kidding, I don't know why they're still trying to push

the ones with the "multi ton blades" when the barrel designs might be safer and at least as efficient with a few tweaks.

Most of the wind farms here are in the back and beyond. Here in town, it's every spare lot being planted with small solar collectors.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. And there are some that don't have blades

And are very effective

[Warpy]

65. Yes, the barrel design is only one of those

and I can think of several ways to boost its efficiency, just sitting here and cranking on the computer. I'm sure real engineers who got hold of it would be able to think of a few more.

[Capt. Obvious]

63. I don't always rec Nadin's threads

but when I do I make it sure it's the crazier ones.

signed: ignored

[Codeine]

67. Capt. Obvious is. . . The Snarkiest Man in the World.

Well played, sir.

[Capt. Obvious]

69. I think everyone on her ignore list should rec her threads

She'll be on the Front Page and top of the Greatest page continuously.
And she'll see the ghosts without having to log out.

ps: thanks - I was too lazy to make the meme image.

[Apophis]

90. I used to use wind power like you.

Then I took a turbine blade in the knee.

[MineralMan]

68. UFF DA!

ALL CAPS TO MAKE MY POST SEEM MORE IMPORTANT, SOMEHOW.

[NYC_SKP]

70. Off road vehicles are the real blight here, Nadin.

You know I love ya but I love wind energy too!

SDGE needs to grab all they can.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. We will disagree

And it has to do with the wind technology at use...not wind in general

As to SDG&E, they just raised my rates by 12%, I expect them to go for 20% before long. Did I mention we have among the highest rates in the nation? Don't expect me to be a fan of the utility.

[NYC_SKP]

75. Just please study up on the tech.

You hinted that they want "distributive energy" like rooftop solar.

Thr term is distributed, not to be a spelling Nazi, but its a good thing- decentralized production.

Happy to talk offline, can't divulge my renewable energy creds on this board.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. They don't want it

Sorry for not being clear.

They want to charge people for having it.

Local utilities want to keep with single distribution.

As I said, it is the particular wind mills in use, and a few other issues. San Diego should be able to do what Germany is doing with solar for starters. And there are new wind mill technologies, which I am sure you are aware off

The next four years will be critical, btw

[SidDithers]

183. And SDG&E is a corporate donor to the Heartland Coalition...

which is the parent organization to East County Magazine, the internet fishwrap that you write for.

Small world, eh?

ETA links:

Heartland Coalition: http://heartlandcln.org/

Major Donors: http://heartlandcln.org/major-donors/

Relationship to East County Magazine: http://heartlandcln.org/project-awareness/

Educate the community about issues of importance in our region through Heartland’s award-winning online media outlet, www.EastCountyMagazine.org. In addition to general news coverage focused on the San Diego region, East County Magazine includes specialty sections to reflect the many multicultural voices in our area, as well as special sections on education, arts and music, green living, other feature topics, selected state and national news, and other important subjects for people in our communities.

Sid

[winter is coming]

82. So, by dropping a turbine blade on a jeep trail, "they" have cleverly discouraged off-roading??

[Codeine]

85. Siemens: Discouraging Vehicular Habitat Destruction Eleven Tons at a Time. nt

[NYC_SKP]

121. Next time it'll count!

[Apophis]

89. OH MY GAWDS THE WINDS ARE GONNA GIVE US THE CANCER! 11111

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Since that has not been stated

What has been stated is we have a cancer cluster, one of many incidentally.

They got nothing to do with wind. I have head the HYPOTHESIS on it...it des not involve wind. There are two at work by the way, and one makes little sense to me.

It will take five to ten years to find out.

[maddezmom]

97. You did not state it directly but intimated it on the other thread over a half dozen times

Now you are walking it back in this thread after you got your as handed to you.

[winter is coming]

104. Ass.

And don't forget, they're having the same health problems in Germany. Not related to turbines, but it's important that I mention them to you at the same time.

[maddezmom]

111. Yes,I have a nice one

[winter is coming]

113. LOL. No doubt, but I was pointing out a typo that made the sentence a bit strange. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

120. Word!

[rhett o rick]

123. It appears to me that you have posted a number of posts in this thread attempting to disparage the

OP poster. I think the behavior of you and your "friends" is childish. If you all dont like her, why dont you ignore her or trash her threads instead of trying to harass her into not posting. Do you think it is fun to gang up on her and try to ridicule her into not posting? Kinda like Jr. High isnt it?

[maddezmom]

131. Bullshit. She posted the OP and made claims throughout this thread that she will not back up.

You might think it is childish to request backup, I think it is childish to ignore people who want links.

[rhett o rick]

133. "Request backup"?? Seriously?? To do what?

To force her thru intimidation by numbers to post differently? or to stop posting altogether? Is that your goal?

All DU posters should either be treated with respect or ignored.

Someone here stated that she deserves to be ridiculed. For making statements that she cant back up? Really?

No DU poster deserves to be ridiculed. If they break the rules, alert, if you dont like what they post, ignore them.

[maddezmom]

134. She presents herself as a journalist. She makes claims about wind farms causing cancer clusters.

I would like to see her links to those claims. Then, she made claims it was due to Roundup....so which is it. I would like to see links to the study she keeps talking about, if you don't so be it.

And same to you, if you don't like what I post, alert on it or ignore me.

[sabrina 1]

292. Thank you for stating the obvious. A mature approach to discussion. It's so easy to ignore

something so when people choose not to, especially when they claim to be so upset by something they have zero need to deal with, the question is not about the target of the intimidation, it becomes about them.

There are so many tools provided on this forum to make it possible never to see anything that upsets you, yet some people refuse to use them. I can't help wondering why.

Good post Rhett ....

[WCLinolVir]

203. The only bullshit I see is yours. I see an attempt at intimidation.

I don't see you posting anything of relevance.

[maddezmom]

209. Asking for links to backup claims is intimidation?

Okay then.

[WCLinolVir]

239. No. Characterizing a response that you did not feel was

sufficient as "bullshit". Tone, intent.

[L0oniX]

302. +1

[Liberty Belle]

147. They CAN cause cancer but not from the noise - from the stray voltage. 1,000 times normal

at homes in our area here that are closest to the turbines and to the substations at these projects. The voltage also disrupts pacemakers and can cause heart arrhythmias.

The infrasound, that you don't hear, same thing that damages whales hearing and makes the poor things beach, can cause ear pain, headaches, dizziness, ringing in the ears and other problems in humans. Why are you even skeptical of this? It is well documented in animals. nd the animals here are acting tormented since turbines went in - we have multiple reports in Boulevard and Campo of coyotes climbing trees and screaming in pain. Animals that don't want to have their paws on the ground due to the voltage coming up. You can feel it in places if you walk there. In Campo a woman on a cell phone had a blue arc flash across the room. It is so dangerous people can't even use certain electronic equipment. This is from the wind turbines and powerlines hooked up to them. There are reports by scientific experts who took the measurements and have provided it to medical experts studying the people living there.

how can anyone say that's okay to do to people and that we should allow these companies to build more without cleaning up the mess they have made? STray voltage should not be coming up in people's houses at 1,000 times normal. Blades should not go falling off turbines. Infrasound should not be allowed at levels high enough to cause pain to humans or animals. Our photographer lives a half mile from Ocotillo's turbines. His dog can't stand to go outside anymore and when it's windy the poor animal runs into the house and dives under the bed whimpering; the ultrasound from the turbines is clearly hurting his ears.

[winter is coming]

150. Wow, that stray voltage must be incredibly damaging! Odd that it's only now being mentioned. n/t

[maddezmom]

151. So do you have any documentation?

Because anyone can say something is fact on the net and yes I am skeptical because between you and Nadin the causes keep changing. So now the cancer is from stray voltage...first I have heard of it.

[winter is coming]

161. Wind turbines must be awfuller [sic] than power lines!! n/t

[Codeine]

159. Voltage coming up from the ground?

That makes no sense at all.

[Gravitycollapse]

171. Nope. Definitely makes zero sense.

Then again, that seems to be a pretty strong trend in the anti-wind energy crowd.

[Gravitycollapse]

169. You don't even know what stray voltage is. There's zero evidence that stray voltage causes cancer.

There is zero evidence that infrasound from turbines causes any ill effects on humans.

Your entire argument hinges on claims that have been proven factually incorrect.

[jeff47]

222. Here's how you can know you're being fed bullshit, even without understanding the physics

The claim:
The stray voltage is 1,000 times normal!!!!

The problem:
There's no units on that claim. People only exclude units when they are peddling bullshit. Why? Because units reveal their claim is bullshit.

Let's move into a simpler-to-understand realm. If I'm driving my car 1,000 times faster than you, I must be driving dangerously, right?

Well, not necessarily. If you are driving 10MPH, then I would be driving very dangerously. If you're driving 1.44 miles per day, then I'm doing 60MPH.

Why are you even skeptical of this? It is well documented in animals.

Because the second statement is false. That makes me rather skeptical of claims that infrasound causes damage.

[WCLinolVir]

247. Volts-voltage, amps, amperage. Are you still following?? Watts-wattage. There is a test.

No units? No, just no comprehension. Stray voltage is ground voltage. Maybe you should use a primer.

[jeff47]

248. And ground voltage is what?

Maybe you should use a primer.

Glass houses, much?

Is that 1000 times a volt? 1000 times a nanovolt? 1000 times a kilovolt? Figured out the problem yet?

The fact that no units are placed on the claim is how people who don't understand the concepts can easily figure out it's bullshit. It has nothing to do with volts being the standard measure for voltage. Because the lack of units means you don't know if that's 1000 times a tiny number, or 1000 times a big number.

Not to mention ground voltage is 0, by definition. What's a 1000 times zero?

[MNBrewer]

298. Anything to support these assertions?

Like that "stray voltage" can cause cancer?

[MineralMan]

305. I think you're going to have to link to some reliable

sources on this statement. I'll wait.

[Apophis]

98. This...

(•_•)
( •_•)>■-■
(■_■ )
Blows.

[patrice]

105. No, no, the bass-out-of-human-hearing-range vibrations caused by big moving blades attached to

a long "tuning fork" pier anchored deep in stone around you that vibrates and drives you crazy . . . .

. . . unless you're a Bassnectar fan.

[mathematic]

102. Where's a good mom & pop wind turbine manufacturer when you need one.

I don't know which is more surprising: that an energy company is involved in building wind turbines to generate energy or that a gigantic german construction & engineering conglomerate that operates in every corner of the planet has engaged in shady deals during its well-over 100 years of existence.

What, exactly, is the story here? That an industrial scale machine failed? That the manufacturer has acted responsibly by shutting down similar machines pending an investigation? Maybe the story should be that the worst thing that could happen to a wind turbine happened and nobody died or lost billions of dollars.

[Liberty Belle]

146. The story is that someone COULD have died here. It fell on a TRAIL.

They are siting these way too close to people. The nearest homes are less than a half mile away hear (not a mile asa Nadin estimated above.) More turbines are proposed in San Diego that would be only 500 feet from roads and 900 feet from campgrounds. A blade could easily travel that far and also turbines sometimes collapse - a 500 tower coming down would obviously take out things that are only 500 feet away, given the length of the blades (173 feet on these models). There are MANY cases where this has happened. And here in Boulevard a blade on a slightly smaller turbine traveled 3/4 of a mile. There are storms here with gale force and even hurricane force winds. The 2007 wildfires were fueled by 100 mph winds. Yes, turbine blades or pieces of them when they blow apart can go quite far. Another wind farm here blew apart in a moderate storm in 2010, hurling chunks of blades heavy enough to smash cars onto a freeway. Thankfully it happened at 2 am. But as they run out of remote windy areas and start putting these closer to homes, roads, campgrounds etc it is a massive accident waiting to happen.

[winter is coming]

156. "More turbines are proposed in San Diego that would be only 500 feet from roads"

From the zoning guidelines for San Diego county:

Large Wind Turbine System: Installation consisting of one or more turbines with a combined blade sweep area of more than 850 square feet. Large systems must be sited on a parcel of at least 5 acres and require Major Use permits. Turbine height may not exceed 80 feet. Systems must be set back from property lines and public roads at least 4 times the height of the tower, and must be set back from existing residences or civic use buildings at least 8 times the height of the tower. Towers must also be set back at least 9 times the height of the furthermost property line of any vacant adjacent parcels. Other set back restrictions or exceptions may apply. Specific measures must be taken to minimize the visual impact of large wind system projects. Project owners are required to post a "removal surety" bond sufficient to allow for the removal of non-operational wind turbines.

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=CA69R

Quite a deviation, if they're going to get permission for something 500 feet tall... and it would have to be minimum of 2000 ft from the road and 4000ft from residences. Likely more, since the setback for smaller, shorter systems is less, so they'd likely scale up for a 500 ft tower.

You want to convince us? Document your statements. All we're getting right now is half-baked overhyped babble. I think you'll find that people are willing to discuss how turbines might be best designed and located if you start the discussion from a defensible position instead of leading with unsubstantiated fearmongering.

[patrice]

103. Octillo is Cthulu cousin? nt

[Codeine]

108. Ocotillo is just Aztec Cthulhu.

[patrice]

110. Wow! What an amazing piece!! Yeah, have you ever seen one of those National Geographic

pieces on the squid in the Sea of Cortez and octopi of course and I suppose in some similar bodies of water?

[daleo]

117. Try living near sour gas wells

That actually does kill people, but it's fossil fuel technology, so no probs.

[HappyMe]

135. Or having tap water

that is flammable.

[daleo]

140. That too

Plus, pipeline ruptures, tankers that leak/sill/sink, refineries that catch on fire...

[Warren DeMontague]

157. HOLY FUCK! AGAIN????

GOOD GOD IS THERE NO END TO THE EVIL WINDUSTRY PERFIDITY

[winter is coming]

173. I can't wait to see what bullshit gets flung at the wall next. n/t

[hrmjustin]

178. This one is a few days old and Nadin is not the one who kicked it.

[maddezmom]

180. Correct

The person who kicked it is the editor of Nadin's paper, East County Magazine.

[hrmjustin]

181. Thanks I did not know that.

[madinmaryland]

187. Huh?

Sid Dithers is the editor of Nadin's paper?



At least it was not Random Thoughts!

[maddezmom]

190. I may be wrong but it looks like Liberty Belle is the one that kicked it

[hrmjustin]

192. Yes and I was only pointing out that Nadin did not start this up again.

[maddezmom]

193. I know. I was responding to madinmaryland

[hrmjustin]

194. I wasn't starting in I was agreeing with you on who kicked it.

Sorry my friend.

[freshwest]

320. Ah, I thought Warren did it. Thanks for explaining.

[Brother Buzz]

196. Nadin can't kick this thread, she got locked out of her own thread on Friday

I'm just saying.

[hrmjustin]

197. Why? did she get a hidden post?

[Brother Buzz]

199. Yes, post # 73

Jeez Louise, I almost posted "This message was hidden by Jury decision" in my subject line and would have locked myself out of this thread.

[hrmjustin]

200. I did not see that one.

[SidDithers]

186. Has the East County Magazine ever disclosed its inherent conflict of interest wrt Wind Power?...

A quick look will show that the East County Magazine has published numerous articles critical of the Ocotillo Wind project, articles that have opposed the project from the planning stages, through construction and now into the operational phase.
http://eastcountymagazine.org/search/node/ocotillo

I don't think I've ever seen ECM disclaim that it gets part of it's funding from San Diego Gas & Electric.

East County Magazine is the "online media outlet" of the Heartland Coalition: http://heartlandcln.org/project-awareness/

Educate the community about issues of importance in our region through Heartland’s award-winning online media outlet, www.EastCountyMagazine.org. In addition to general news coverage focused on the San Diego region, East County Magazine includes specialty sections to reflect the many multicultural voices in our area, as well as special sections on education, arts and music, green living, other feature topics, selected state and national news, and other important subjects for people in our communities.

One of the Heartland Coalition's major donors is SDG&E.

Major Donors: http://heartlandcln.org/major-donors/

A professional news organization would disclose this relationship. Whether there is influence or not is immaterial. The appearance of influence should be addressed through prior disclosure.

h/t to maddezmom and sgtbenobo for figuring this out.

Sid

[NYC_SKP]

204. I cannot imagine what motive SDGE would have to disparage the technology.

They handle the power generated by these turbines.

[Occulus]

282. Assuming a backroom deal or two makes imagining that a whole lot easier.

I'm sure there have been other "gentlemen's agreements" between industry and utility throughout the years in America. Follow the money, and all...

Is there a way SDGE could benefit financially somehow if the wind project is stopped? An offer on ownership of the property, maybe? Stake ownership in something else, something valuable enough to keep rates steady and pocket the rest somewhere?

Have any of those, or similar, questions been seriously asked? If not, perhaps they should be...

(If that's now called conspiracy woo, I give up.)

[Gravitycollapse]

210. And....end thread.

[Rex]

220. There was another thread on this!?

But I just got here! How many has she made?

[winter is coming]

221. I think this was #2 out of 4 or 5. n/t

[Rex]

269. So it turns out she is trying to make money and screw over wind farms.

It is sad really, at one time she actually could post articles of interest. Now it seems she is just another Bev Harris. Not surprised really.

[winter is coming]

271. What is truly sad is that "activism" like this is likely to impede the efforts of people

who seriously advocate small-scale, distributed systems.

[Rex]

272. Well the lies don't help her cause at all.

I see the jokes going around DU about blades breaking off and flying up to a mile in distance. About wind turbines causing cancer.

[JimDandy]

288. I am more concerned about the direct link

between funding of this magazine by the Viejas Band of the Kumeyaay Nation and the band's vehement objection to the Ocotillo wind turbines:

(East County Magazine has) also attracted many sponsors including: ...Viejas Band of the Kumeyaay Nation,...

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/about

While the East County Magazine has 57 sponsors and this tribe is only one of them, the Viejas tribe (backed by money from their casino located in the Cleveland National Forest just a short distance away from Ocotillo) has been an opponent of the wind project from the beginning and is a plaintiff in a recent lawsuit over this.

[msanthrope]

290. Very Interesting. nt

[whistler162]

266. I have yet to see evidence that Wind Technology is not

the real cause of global warming by throwing the world off kilter with those GIGANTIC turning blades!

[truebrit71]

268. HAVING ANY BETTER LUCK NOW THAT YOU'VE POSTED THIS IN ALL-CAPS?

We get it, you don't like wind power...amazing considering the amount of hot air you produce though....

[IdaBriggs]

280. Result of Alert: 6-0 Leave it Alone.

Wow. Apparently "personal attacks" are really okay, per the Jury!

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

"...amazing considering the amount of hot air you produce though..." personal attack - please hide.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon May 20, 2013, 01:38 PM, and voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The alerter must have mighty thin skin...Leave it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Strongly worded but that's not against the TOS.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

[rhett o rick]

286. The jury sides with the bully crowd. This poster is considered fair game. Shame on them all. nm

[truebrit71]

300. You obviously have a very low p/a threshold...

I've seen much, MUCH worse getting the blessings of DU juries in the recent past...

[IdaBriggs]

307. I hate personal attacks and pile-ups.

My thresh hold on them is ZERO TOLERANCE.

I posted about it to the Admins. I am hoping they will create a "mutual ignore" policy, or "Mod enforced Ignore" or something to stop the abuses.

The original poster is just the current target, and the juries seem to be random on what they will allow.

I am currently being ignored by 17 people, with me ignoring 1. I would give up seeing posts from those 17 people if it would stop me from having to see the UGLY that some of the people in this thread have been doing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12591778

[truebrit71]

308. I think you mean pile-ons, no?

And it wasn't a personal attack, as the jury verified...

[IdaBriggs]

309. Why don't you try it? Find someone, and in your most pleasant voice say:

"...amazing considering the amount of hot air you produce!"

Pile-on, pile-up, gang attack - call it what you will because (like pornography) I know it when I see it, and it was ugly.

A jury result doesn't change reality: this was a personal insult (aka a personal attack), but in this case the jury voted that it was acceptable for reasons unknown. Sometimes it happens. It was intended to hurt someone's feelings, and show how little regard their opinion was held in; it was not intended as respectful discourse. It was supposed to be "witty" because the original thread was about "wind" (get it? hot air? hardy har har!), as well as vicious.

It was, in short, a personal attack.

Like I said, say it to anyone in real life. Say it out loud.

Juries aren't perfect, and neither is DU. Hopefully the mods can come up with a way to fix some of the abuses.

[truebrit71]

310. I have had much, MUCH worse things said about/to me...

..and the juries have let them stand as well...

Hot air rises, causing cool air to rush in to replace it thereby creating wind. We're talking about wind power. Get it?

I thought it was very witty, but it certainly wasn't a personal attack. A personal attack would have been something like "holy fuck, how many times must you post the same fucking link looking to back up your ridiculous claims. Are you stupid, or just hard of learning?"....you know an "attack" that was "personal"...

I do agree with you on the lack of perfection in the juries though...

[pintobean]

311. You're upset about the hot air comment

which is about what she posts, not her personally, yet you called a bunch of people in this thread assholes in ATA..

It wasn't the original poster who made that thread unpleasant; it was the assholes.

Calling DUers assholes is a personal attack.

[IdaBriggs]

312. Yes, I gave a generic description of the behavior of multiple DUers.

And referred to them as a group as "assholes."

I probably could have found another word: Bullies. Obnoxious. Rude. Inappropriate. Scummy. MEAN. Nasty. Not-Nice-People. Abusive. Insulting. Etc.

I went for the easy, everyone-understands-it-description: these people are/were behaving like assholes.

My only defense is that used against slander and libel: I believe it to be the God's Honest Truth.

And I also think they made the thread unpleasant.

I am furthermore NOT discussing it as an "attack" against the perpetrators, but rather with the Admin in order to discuss a problem I am seeing at DU along with ways to solve it going forward. (The folks in this thread, as I discuss in the ATA thread, would simply find new targets and/or be replaced by the next incarnation of "purity police" if they were made to go away. This is a common problem, with only the names of the folks involved changing.)

I believe you are offended because I used one of your comments as an example of inappropriate behavior, correct?

I am sorry if your feelings were hurt. I also am sorry you made the comment, and that I had to read it. It did not make DU a better place. It did not contribute to the discussion, and I thought it was intended to cause someone to feel hurt and belittled.

It is also pretty clear that the original poster was NOT responding (which negates the "it takes two to tango" argument when dealing with this type of abusive behavior).

I am not interested in any of the justifications you (or the others involved) might have for your Extremely Inappropriate Behavior. (There: is that a better way of saying it?)

Personally, I think that the Admins should be watching for multiple hides by the same people against the same people, and banning the rude ones (which I think would make DU a nicer place), but I would settle for "IGNORES" becoming automatically mutual, which would prevent the "gang-bang" syndrome.

I also trust that the Admins will figure this out. They closed meta (praise be!), and they truly care about DU and the folks who make it a community.

In the meantime, allow me to share what I tell my six-year olds about "using your words nicely" when talking to others:

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

[pintobean]

313. No, I am not offended and you didn't use my comments

My reply to you was the only post I made in this thread. I just found it funny that you listed a bunch of comments that were less offensive than your post calling them assholes.

[IdaBriggs]

314. You have a good irony meter there!

I should have used other words. Instead I used the one that was on the top of my list.

Maybe I will get lucky, and some will ignore me - woo hoo!

[rhett o rick]

285. You just have to get nasty. "considering the amount of hot air you

produce though...".

Do you think that ridicule will get her to stop posting? Shameful.

[truebrit71]

301. Neither nasty nor ridicule...

...but thanks for your input...

[rhett o rick]

287. Hang in there Nadin. Dont let the bastards get you down. It's not their fault.

Meta was closed down and the bullies have no where to go.

This thread shows the ugly side of DU. People that are supposed to be "politically liberal people" engaged in ridicule and mocking in an attempt to get the OP poster to leave DU. It's all about bullying. Some here have the audacity to say that Nadin deserves to be mocked and bullied. There is no excuse for this behavior. It's school yard bullying. It's behavior typical of conservatives.

[hrmjustin]

289. +1

[sabrina 1]

293. 'It's all about bullying'

Yes, it is. Thank you for this post and your commendable attempts in this ugly thread to try to bring some decency to it. Anyone who says that ANY human being 'deserves to be mocked and bullied' should not be on this site imo.

[rhett o rick]

294. Thank you sabrina.

Righteous Bullying: If you are on the side of righteousness then it's ok to bully, especially if you can get others to back you up.

I agree that this thread is an ugly example and it is probably uglier than I see because I have a few of the worse on ignore.

[Generic Other]

299. I am joining the side that says this behavior makes DU suck

It's ugly and no different than the harassment she endures at the nasty rightwing hate sites that stalk and obsess over DUers.

[L0oniX]

306. Keep watch on Nadin's posts to see all the bullies this site has attracted ...it's pathetic.

These immature uncontrolled bullies are working against the civility DU should have ...and DU is going down hill because of them.

[L0oniX]

304. Indeed ...and IMO blog bullies should be banned.

[RudynJack]

321. What?

I couldn't hear you.