Well I don't think we can pin this one on an untreated mental illness

[dkf]

Not two brothers at the same time...

Whatever the reasons, this is purely malicious.

[MineralMan]

1. You don't think so, eh?

Another speculation, I see. How nice. There have been so many this week. Maybe yours will be the right one. Who knows?

[Fumesucker]

2. Radical religion can be seen as a mental illness from some perspectives

And I think that may have something to do with this incident.

[LanternWaste]

18. As can radical politics, radical philosophies, radical nationalism and radical economics...

"Radical religion can be seen as a mental illness from some perspectives..."

As can radical politics, radical philosophies, radical nationalism and radical economics... of which I think two of them have as much to do, if not more so than radical religion.

[snooper2]

3. fundies are all untreated mental patients

[littlemissmartypants]

28. W. James...The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience.html...

http://www.manyebooks.org/download/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience.html

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/j/james/william/varieties/index.html

Free ebooks.



Love, Peace and Shelter. lmsp

[CJCRANE]

4. I'd call it a personality disorder

rather than a mental illness.

However, the Phelps clan proves that nutters sometimes flock together.

[angrychair]

5. No

The desire or willingness to kill another person is a mental illness.

[slackmaster]

6. I'm sure there is something in the DSM that could be slapped on them

Antisocial Personality Disorder, for example.

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Personality%20Disorders/DSM-IV%20and%20DSM-5%20Criteria%20for%20the%20Personality%20Disorders%205-1-12.pdf

[Enrique]

8. same logic

the fact that it's two people makes that unlikely.

[cbdo2007]

9. Usually Adjustment Disorder is what providers fall back on...

as their "go to" for people they don't know how to classify elsewhere.

[meow2u3]

44. Adjustment Disorder is by definition temporary

with a maximum duration of 6 months and caused by stress.

[cbdo2007]

47. Oh no....

we have providers who will bill with adjustment disorder for the same member for years. The great thing about adjustment disorder is that people's lives are naturally always changing so within 6 months it's easy to have something new and uncomfortable happen that you need to adjust to.

[meow2u3]

48. AFAIK, they change the diagnosis if the disorder lasts more than 6 mos.

Here's the Psychology Today link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/adjustment-disorder

[cbdo2007]

50. Well.....they SHOULD change the diagnosis.....

or else they're going to set off Fraud & Abuse alarms.....but many of them don't.

[marions ghost]

15. What is often called psychopathy, at least previously...

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpə?i/[1]) is a personality construct identified by characteristics such as a lack of empathy and remorse, criminality, antisocial behavior, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, and a parasitic lifestyle. As a diagnostic category in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, psychopathy has been replaced by antisocial personality disorder (ASPD).[2]

While no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis of "psychopathy" itself, assessments of psychopathy characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings in some nations and may have important consequences for individuals.[citation needed] The term is also used by the general public, in popular press, and in fictional portrayals.

Although there are behavioral similarities, psychopathy and ASPD, according to criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, are not synonymous. The diagnosis of ASPD covers two to three times as many prisoners as those that have been labeled psychopaths. Most offenders scoring high on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R) also pass the ASPD criteria, but most of those with ASPD do not score high on the PCL-R.[3] Psychopaths are, despite the similar names, rarely psychotic.[2][4]

(wiki)

[HereSince1628]

19. In DSM-IV a dx of ASPD requires troubled teenage years

Run ins with authorities in school and the police.

Behavior such as arson is commonly used as an example of the seriousness of the trouble.

There isn't in evidence at this time, anything to suggest either #1 or #2 had such trouble. Instead people say that #2 was an angel.

I think your diagnosis fails.

[marions ghost]

26. Your rebuke fails

I merely defined the term ASPD as introduced by Slackmaster, with a reference to the older term, psychopathy. The wiki excerpt points out the fact that ASPD is more common in criminals than
psycho-or socio--pathy as currently defined. Discussing the terms--OK with you?
These are certainly possibilities.

I did no diagnosing. Back off please.

If you think these guys are "angels" because the teacher says so, then I question your sanity.

[HereSince1628]

30. I merely turned to the criteria listed by the American Psychiatric Association.

Using medical terms without employing their criteria is pointless.

There is nothing in evidence yet to suggest that ASPD is valid. Not to say it couldn't come into evidence at some point. I point out what their classmates and teachers said, because it IS in evidence and it suggests #2's behavior didn't manifest required symptoms.

I fully understand the psycho-socio needs that demand the creation and repetition of a narrative that makes the suspects VERY VERY BAD.

[marions ghost]

34. You don't understand ASPD

The teacher's superficial view is interesting because it shows how well some deviant minds can cover up their latent tendencies. It doesn't literally mean that what the teacher thinks is evidence. Actually the angel behavior is compatible with sociopathy.

[HereSince1628]

38. Yes, I think I do. I understand the role of deception but

I also understand the central importance of the emergence of serious social difficulties by age 16.

None of that is in evidence, yet. I can't say it won't become available because I am not omniscient.

[marions ghost]

7. Why not?

Not enough information.

Two brothers at the same time--sure, sociopathy can run in families.

Look at Jeb and George. The Koch Bros. And then there's the mafia.

[Kelvin Mace]

10. Well, I view religious zealotry as mental illness

And so far that seem to be the only explanation coming out.

[Zorra]

12. Delusion...

b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

[HereSince1628]

22. Does your view carry weight with any professional psychiatric association?

I think not.

And while you are of course entitled to your opinion, I think adults recognize that some opinions are informed and carefully considered, some are not.

[Zorra]

40. DSM IV-V62.89 is a category of religious and spiritual related problems,

in other words, psychiatric problems related to religious belief. This refers to psychiatric problems related to religious belief, not religious belief in itself.

V62.89: This category can be used when the focus of clinical attention is a religious or spiritual problem. Examples include distressing experiences that involve loss or questioning of faith, problems associated with conversion to a new faith, or questioning of other spiritual values which may not necessarily be related to an organized church or religious institution. (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, p. 685)

A religious zealot who believes that a deity wishes, or is instructing, her/him to blow people up with bombs is definitely delusional.

[HereSince1628]

43. I think you misread that. This section refers to -distress- associated with

loss or questioning of faith, problems associated with conversion to a new faith, or questioning of other spiritual value

It doesn't say ANYTHING about zealousness, or criminal activity such as bombing.

[Zorra]

49. No, I didn't misread it. But, whatever. nt

[Kelvin Mace]

51. If you claim an invisible man

is talking to do and telling you to harm/kill people in any context other than religion, then they are going to haul you in for evaluation. But claim the invisible man is "God" and no one questions your mental health.

And if you wish to disagree with me, that's fine, but insulting snark is not making your case.

[flamingdem]

11. The uncle diagnosed them: loserism nt

[olddots]

13. I think we know as much about mental illness now as we did 300 years ago

I'm not arguing with your OP ,I agree that we should tone down our desire to diagnose and stereotype .

[Bosso 63]

14. Folie à deux

Its possible. I doubt it in this case however.

[HereSince1628]

16. You see dkf, the anxiety soothing narrative NEEDS the bad guys to be REALLY BAD

The one true thing to say...the bombings, the shootings, the carjacking...all were CRIMINAL.

If it is for sure terrorism, that's also criminal

But criminal isn't BAD ENOUGH. The narrative needs stronger descriptors.

Ethnic and religious descriptors are considered bigoted stereotypes--so they can't be used.

What's left for those on the street to create distance betwee US good guys and the REALLY TERRIBLY CRIMINAL BAD guys?

Blaming mental illness, of course. It isn't rational as in squaring with empirical evidence that a mental health condition was responsible, but it's completely rational when you square it with the need of society to invoke the soothing narrative, which requires really bad bad guys.

[marions ghost]

21. Killing people

is indicative of insanity. Disorders, sociopathy. Mental Illness.

That does not mean that mentally ill people are killers.

[HereSince1628]

25. Only under the limits of understanding that you labor under.

If killing was always insanity, every murderer would also be successful in using an insanity defense.

The US government asks it's agents to kill with some regularity. You would certainly offend millions by saying that our military and security forces are composed of persons who are mentally ill.

[marions ghost]

31. Killing another human is insanity

except, one could argue, in self-defense when one's life is immediately threatened.

Every mass murderer is insane, whether or not an insanity defense sticks.

I think the military and agents who kill for a government can rationalize it, and they function by considering it a socially-sanctioned duty (defense of others). They can then rationalize it after they have done it (tho it takes a toll on many and drives them insane). You really have to look at the effect on people in these jobs over the long term.

So no, I don't think the act of killing is a fully rational act at any time. Humans must be trained to kill. Trained to disassociate. It doesn't come naturally except to sociopaths.

[HereSince1628]

33. I'll rest my case with what I previously stated

[Tien1985]

39. Well stated.

I agree with you. Wanting to murder others is unusual human behavior. Even killing others out of self defense does nasty things mentally to the person defending themself.

[marions ghost]

45. Right--

even killing in self-defense can be a long term issue. I know that law enforcement officers often
wrestle with it.

This is why it is so important when in our barbaric world--we ask young people to be willing to kill (whether in war or defense at home) -- you have to be very sure of the reasons you ask them to do that. Because if they do kill, they have to live with that for the rest of their lives. (Meanwhile Preshadent Boosh can go home and paint puppies & Darth slinks back to his cave).

It is not normal to murder. It has to be socially sanctioned and it has to be taught, for "normal" people to agree to do it. Sociopaths are drawn to the opportunities, or make them.

I'm sure those who have had to kill in the line of duty agree with me.

[Jamastiene]

17. No shit, Sherlock.

It must have taken you hours of heavy thinking to come to that conclusion. What was the tip-off?

[Enrique]

20. i don't understand this reaction

what in the OP merits such a response?

[nolabear]

24. Now how does that help?

Sheesh.

[Rex]

23. Shared Psychotic Disorder

Google it.

[meow2u3]

46. Link to Wikipedia article for Shared Psychotic Disorder (Folie à deux)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux

Even large groups can be affected by shared psychotic disorder.

BTW, I wonder if this is what's wrong with teabaggers.

[nolabear]

27. DU is really problematic for misunderstanding what constitutes "mental illness".

I don't mean acting irresponsibly, ragefully, cruelly, with a shared delusion, or any of the many things that we fear and despise in people.

But it's incorrect, hurtful and unwise to use rogue diagnoses on people when you have incomplete information, little education and an excess of emotion.

And it makes people who might have been legitimately diagnosed with a mental illness feel suspected, marginalized, misunderstood and threatened.

It's a big, big mistake.

[dkf]

29. I'm specifically targeting what could have been done medically to "fix" this situation.

I don't see this as a failure of the mental health system.

Do you?

[nolabear]

37. Not so far. I haven't heard anything about the mental health system being involved in any way.

We will see if anything develops but until then I simply don't know.

[Avalux]

32. I think isolation, inability to 'fit in' was a major factor.

It's our society that's partly to blame. I was thinking about those young men growing up here post 911, with funny sounding names, and a religion other than Christianity....not easy. I can't begin to understand and it certainly is not an excuse for their actions, but feeling alone can be so painful that people will do horrific things.

[HereSince1628]

36. It seems clear that #2 wasn't isolated

and that he had fit in and been successful in his high school

There was a post that he had 400 fb friends so whatever isolation he experienced, it seems somewhat mitigated by social media.


not much information available on #1 yet.

[Avalux]

41. That is true.

And from what we've been hearing, #1 seems to have been isolated and troubled. As the older brother, perhaps he influenced #2.

Unless #2 is taken alive or turns himself in and talks, we will probably never know.

[lpbk2713]

35. Does Limbaugh broadcast in Russian anywhere in the world?

Or BecKKK ... or Hannity ... or O"Lielly ... or Faux ... or ...


Obviously their heads got filled with shit somehow.

[Blue_Roses]

42. I don't think you can pin this senseless tragedy on any one thing except

senseless.