She Dialed 911. The Cop Who Came to Help Raped Her.

[oberliner]

Excerpt:

She now stood on a floor littered with broken glass and pointed to the brick. The cop she had summoned to protect her instead chose this moment to grab the back of her head by her hair and sodomize her. Then he raped her.

Her revulsion in the aftermath was so visceral that she vomited as she ran outside. The cop’s partner had become concerned when he did not immediately see Cates and called for back-up. Other cops began arriving and saw a woman screaming incoherently about being raped.

Cates appeared and grabbed her by the waist, spinning her around. Her swinging feet may or may not have struck the partner. She was handcuffed and taken in, told at the stationhouse that she was being charged with assaulting a police officer.

She became more coherent but no less outraged and vocal as she continued cry out from a holding cell that she had been raped. She also continued to vomit. The other cops dismissed her as a liar.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/29/she-dialed-911-the-cop-who-came-to-help-raped-her.html

[yardwork]

1. That young woman overcame a lot. Good for her.

[Liberal_in_LA]

113. +100

[redqueen]

3. What was she wearing?

I think this background information about her is important.

What, it's only facts.

[Boombaby]

49. Holy shit

This is both depressing and enraging.

[Boombaby]

119. Video

Unlike its title, the clip itself is "Just the Facts."

[Nye Bevan]

32. Whatever she was wearing, the guy was convicted and will go to prison

for a very long time. It's nice to see the system working as it should.

[arely staircase]

19. omg i guess the posts have been removed? or was there another post on this

[mistertrickster]

43. An alert was sent.

Well, you squeaked by 3-3.

Doncha love coming to the biggest left-leaning discussion board on the WEB to be told that "you too are part of the problem?"

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. The jury system is a farce.

The rules are replaced by prevailing sentiment.

[mistertrickster]

92. I'm starting to agree.

When one sees the posts that are hidden vs. the ones not hidden, there's no consistency.

[Vanje]

44. You clearly do not understand

.....the "culture".

[The Doctor.]

46. Name them.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Just more BS about some mysterious 'Rape Culture' on a Liberal website.

I can't imagine what it's like to imagine such horrible phantoms everywhere.

[redqueen]

48. It's not mysterious at all.

People on this site think it's fine to throw up an accuser's age and relationship to the accused in an attempt to portray a rape accusation as skeptical.

That is a shining example of rape culture, and most people here have no problem with it at all.

[The Doctor.]

51. Not one single person in this thread has done that.

And every single time I ask for some kind of proof that people 'defend rape', every single accuser fails to find it and makes some lame excuse about 'calling out' DUers.

It's bullshit and I'm calling it what it is.

As for people being 'skeptical' of a given claim, that is no more an 'approval' of rape than being skeptical of a murder accusation meaning you're 'pro-murder'.

Find one DUer (non-troll) who is 'pro-rape' or 'pro-rape culture' and I'll never call out this bullshit again.

[mistertrickster]

54. You don't need proof when you've been victimized by "rape culture"

as all women have by all men.

In fact, you don't even need proof of "rape culture."

Simply saying it, proves it.

[redqueen]

55. No, no one has done it in this thread.

But since victim-blaming seems to be so popular... why not pepper every thread about rape with some apparently well-loved victim-blaming gems?

And who said anything about defending rape? If you're attempting to have a discussion with someone who said that, you'll have to find the person who said it in order to do so. Good luck.

As for your command that I run off and find you some kind of comment that suits your definition of whateverthehell... yeah, I'll pass.

You go on calling out this bullshit, but ignoring it when the victim blaming is actually being done in all seriousness. That makes tons of sense.


If you want to see what it looks like when it's not being done sarcastically by feminists to make a point, read the Elephant Man thread. I thought you might have seen it, but in case you haven't, that's what has kicked this off. Also the threads in Meta (multiple threads, because apparently call outs are sometimes wrong, even if they're not call outs... )

[The Doctor.]

56. WHAT 'Victim Blaming'?

That's all I'm asking for.

The accusation that there are such evil men on DU that they 'blame' rape victims for being raped is ABSOLUTE bullshit.

It's one of these mythologies that a group of misandrists continues to try to propagate here. If I were the admins, I'd put a stop to such horrible characterizations of men on DU just because they feel they can get away with it.

You can't back that bullshit up and you know it. Why do you insist on making claims you cannot prove?

[mistertrickster]

57. Redqueen makes her inability to provide proof into an "argument"

of the "it's so obvious that the only way you could miss it is to not be paying attention" type.

Classic.

[The Doctor.]

84. She did provide links. Sadly, not a single link backs up what she claims.

It's fascinating to me that so many people can read what is not there. This thread is interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124040460

[seabeyond]

87. rape is in question. she was 31 and been to house before. hm.... it is amazing. nt

[redqueen]

59. Please check your defensiveness.

It was a woman that seemed to be not so much blaming the victim as casting doubt on her based on bullshit reasons... the kinds of bullshit reasons that have been used against rape victims for so long and so routinely that they have come to fall under the umbrella of 'victim blaming'.

Read the threads. I won't link to it lest my comment be hidden as a call out. Decide for yourself if you think mentioning the age of an accuser, or whether or not she knew the accused, are reasons to be skeptical of a woman when she makes an accusation of rape.

[mistertrickster]

60. In other words, Doctor, find our proof for us.

And if you won't, it just proves you don't care and you're part of the problem -- willfull ignorance.

Of course, if you do find our evidence and don't agree that it constitutes proof, why, then you're part of the problem too, because then you are more concerned with rapists' rights than with sympathy for the victim.

[redqueen]

61. Stop kneejerking and read.

This isn't about the rapist at all.

Lovely displays of thoughtless kneejerking defensiveness in this thread though, so thanks for that.

[mistertrickster]

64. If demanding evidence to draw conclusions is "knee jerking"

I'm never going to stop doing it . . . because that's the difference between civilization and savagery.

[redqueen]

67. Kneejerking is thinking it's all about YOU and MEN.

And not spending ten seconds to go look for anything you obviously don't give a shit about.

[The Doctor.]

65. The first being post #2.

Thanks for at least acknowledging that.

[The Doctor.]

63. And there's that lame excuse again.

"Oh, I can't provide any proof whatsoever because that would be 'calling out' a DUer."

I know a way around that.... send a PM.

I've also made that request several times and guess how many baseless accusers followed up?

ZERO

It may not be you, but there is a group of serial man-haters on DU who routinely use every opportunity to bash men on DU. I'm not 'defensive' at all, I'm counter-offensive. Thus my legitimate demands for proof of these accusations. Those accusations of 'rape culture' are proven BS by the fact that the best you can do is turn around and say that 'some woman' who 'didn't seem to be blaming the victim' actually was by some nebulous virtue that you can neither describe nor link to.

My PM box is open.

[redqueen]

66. PM on the way.

Please stop with the defensiveness.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MEN, OR YOU.

[polly7]

70. Or, obviously, the woman raped in the OP.

And you know ..... it's strange, I don't see a word of sympathy for her by those who've chosen to derail the thread ....... strange, isn't it?

[redqueen]

72. I would think that basic logic would mean

that the sympathy goes without question.

Basic logic dictates that those who actually seem to give a half a shit about the fact that women are treated so horribly when they make accusations of rape would feel more sympathy than those who think posting sympathetic comments on a message board is the utmost display of sympathy.

This woman is extremely lucky that she was believed, eventually. Lucky for her, no one here finds any reason to treat her claims as skeptical.

[polly7]

73. No, it doesn't go without question at all.

I came across people who actually did believe it my own attack was my fault, so I absolutely know how it goes. However, not a single person on this thread stated she deserved it for any reason. I think you'll find it hard to convince the many who've posted their sympathy here they don't give a shit.

[redqueen]

76. Read more carefully. I never said people didn't give a shit *about this woman*.

And with that I'm done engaging with anyone on this thread about this other issue.

[seabeyond]

77. one would think, a woman who has experienced this would be curious, why women would be having this

in this thread and ask why? why women are so worked up about this. because obviously they are. one would think there would be a bit of curiosity instead of trying to find a way to blame them for not having the required sympathy for the victim, you assume they don't have. though again, common sense would suggest that it is a given any of these women, who often speak out for women, have that empathy.... fuck the shallow sympathy crap.

[polly7]

81. Really ???????

One would think that derailing a thread for bullshit that never even occurred on it, detracting from the very REAL story of a woman brutally raped - would be just plain fucking wrong? Right?

'Using' this tragedy to push forward the infamous 'DU rape cultrue' is showing sympathy and empathy? Sorry ........ not to me, I find it disgusting. As I find you.

[seabeyond]

83. yes, really. but you are and always have been clear on your position when the issue is women. nt

[polly7]

91. lmfao

I've taken care of women on the way to hospital, I've worked at a shelter in the city, I've seen relatives go through what I did, I've gone to court, been treated for PTSD ..... what exactly is my position on women, all-knowing one?

[mistertrickster]

110. +1000 . . . isn't it astonishing

the way some folks want to pretend that they're the only ones that really care about women's issues, and anyone who holds the merest difference of opinion is a 50's chauvinist?

It really gets annoying.

[polly7]

172. It is astonishing, sickening, and yet still laughable.

Being told my sympathy for a woman raped is shallow, while that expressed by those who mentioned the victim not even once ...... is 'obviously' much more meaningful ..... well, it doesn't get any weirder than that. Or, I guess it does, when I'm being chastised by someone who feels 'young men' conditioned by society who rape really aren't the animals we normally consider rapists. The broken bones, bruises, nightmares, panic-attacks .... that must be all my own fault, because this young man was everyone's best friend ....... 'obviously' though, just a victim of society. Me, I just don't understand women's issues the way I should.

[The Doctor.]

79. I'm quite aware you'd like to divert attention from the male-bashing.

It means that you are at least aware that it is wrong or unfounded.

So I reviewed the first link in the PM. Without having to name names or 'call anyone out', here's the one quote:

here in Jamaica there is much skepticism about this charge - the alleged victim is a 31 year old who was at the entertainer's home and apparently not for the first time.

The poster is not 'defending rape' in any way, shape, or form. What the above is called is a 'statement of fact' to the best of the poster's knowledge. We don't know what the poster's opinion is of this case. As I've stated already, skepticism of a rape claim no more indicates a 'rape culture' than skepticism of a murder claim indicates a 'murder culture'.

Why is it that when someone is accused of murder with little or no evidence, skepticism is acceptable, while skepticism of a rape claim with little or no evidence is not?

[mistertrickster]

109. I believe I have the answer to your question:

Why is it that when someone is accused of murder with little or no evidence, skepticism is acceptable, while skepticism of a rape claim with little or no evidence is not?

Because the old party line in feminist circles -- which we see here -- is that society conditions men and women into conforming to a male-dominated world-view. One way to drive this home at every opportunity is to use the crime of rape as a symbol of men's ever-present and inexorable domination of women, i.e., "rape culture".

Therefore, rapists are not criminals as murderers are . . . they're just ordinary men doing what men do whenever they think they can get away with it.

It has very little to do with trying to actually stop rape imho, and a lot more to do with using guilt to try to shame men into forced adherence to a political position . . .

[unapatriciated]

154. I have no problem with skepticism

What I don't care for is when statements are made regarding the age (she is old enough to know better) familiarity (she knows him or has been to his home before) or she was out late in the wrong part of town. She must be lying or asking for it. These arguments have been used for a long time to blame the victim. This is the rape culture that many are talking about and not what you explained. If you knew a rape victim and what they go through just to press charges you would understand the term. Unless you are beaten almost to death (sometimes not even then) you are not taken seriously when filing a police report, especially if you know your attacker. Your past and relationships are brought in as speculation to your character. That is the culture and stereotype that is still thriving and what many women want to change. When speaking of rape too many see the sex act and not what it really is, violence and control over another human being.... woman, man or child.

Yes there are false claims and those when proven should be punished as a criminal act or looked into for a mental disorder.

If your car was stolen would the police make it difficult for you to report if you parked it in the wrong part of town?

If your house was broken into would you be questioned on how many times you left it unlocked before they took a report?

[petronius]

95. Misandrists? If I were the admins, I'd put a stop to such horrible mischaracterizations

of women on DU.

I can't help noticing a progression in your posts here, from what redqueen actually said to your straw man complaints about accusations of being pro-rape, defending rape, or approving of rape, poor characterizations of men in general, man-bashing, or misandry -- none of which apply to redqueen's comments...

[The Doctor.]

108. In your own words,

What did redqueen 'say'?

[petronius]

111. Why would you need *my* words when *redqueen's* words are right there

up the thread? Where even the most casual of readers can see that they include none of what you accused her of stating, doing, being, or implying...

But if you truly require a Cliff Notes version, then I will tell you (subject to correction from RQ herself, of course) that key points in redqueen's prior posts are to criticize a culture in which blame for sexual assault is too frequently transferred to the victim based on irrelevant issues, and in which sexual violence is commonly made light of or even joked about. (None of that, if you'll excuse some repetition, is misandry, male-bashing, or accusing anyone of being "pro-rape.&quot

[redqueen]

112. It's pointless.

You can see for yourself the amount of work people are willing to put in in order to avoid the point. As if it is in any way hard to figure out.

It's very, very telling.

[The Doctor.]

116. I've been asking for evidence of this "point", but you've provided nothing.

What amazes me is how willing people are to believe something they have no evidence of.

[mistertrickster]

123. Yes, exactly right. Clearly, rape victims are

often victimized again by a system -- law enforcement, organized religion, or power brokers-- that want to sweep a problem under the rug, but the key thing is, and please read my lips on this, I don't see anyone on DU doing this.

That's the Dr's point, that's Polly's point, and that's my point.

Blaming the victim for her rape is not happening here at DU.

Sorry if that hurts the political talking-point that you're so heavily invested in, but until you show evidence otherwise, and you haven't, our position stands.

[The Doctor.]

114. So she didn't say that DUers were 'Blaming the victim'?

It's one of those pesky 'yes or no' things.

[petronius]

117. She said what I just told you she said, and if you scroll up about 18" you can

see her actually saying it.

If you are truly one of those interlocutors who thinks a "yes"/"no" demand is a clever rhetorical play, or if that is in fact the limit of your intellectual reach, then you may take this as a "yes." Of course, more thoughtful readers will be interested in understanding the meaning of "victim-blaming" as RQ used it above - context will make that very clear - and the supporting evidence for its presence on DU and (even more so) in society as a whole.

Lastly, I can't help noticing that after all this, RQ's characterizations of what she chooses to call "rape culture" are left standing, while the wild and offensive accusations you leveled against her have received nary a shred of support from you or anyone else. Why is that?

[The Doctor.]

122. So "Yes", she did say that DUers 'blame the victim'.

I called her on it, she has no evidence that it's true, my contention that it's bullshit stands. The contention that DU has a 'rape culture' is exposed as bullshit, and my 'accusations' as they are stand.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. This is long since settled.

[petronius]

125. I have submitted your comments to a jury of smiley-men, and they came back

five rofls to one eye roll, as follows: (Juror #4 had some additional comments, of course, as #4 always does.)

Seriously, dude, if you honestly think that you have successfully called anyone on anything, or that any of your accusations are supported ("defending rape", "misandrists", etc. Remember?), then you should probably take a good long look back over this thread...

[The Doctor.]

126. So you think you can avoid reality simply by ignoring it?

It amazes me that supposedly grown adults can't be bothered to follow some of the most basic rules of discourse:

If someone asks a question, answer it, or explain why you can't.

If someone makes a point, acknowledge it, then either challenge it, agree with it, disagree with it, or ask for clarification.

If you are not clear on a point, ask for clarification and explain what you are not getting if possible.

If you disagree, it is courteous and productive to explain why. Your discussion partner then may wish to repeat the above cycle with you.


Not one of you seem to be able to practice these very simple guidelines. But what really gets me is the puerile response I get from you while you deny what is presumably accessible in black and white on your screen.

For you to deny that RQ claimed that DUers 'blame the victim' and then failed to produce even a shred of evidence is a kind of willful ignorance I would expect from a kindergartner. If I needed further proof, your above post leaves no question of the type of mentality that I'm dealing with.

Now, I'm certain you're going to throw a tantrum and alert on my post hoping to get people that can't be bothered to discover the reasons I've said what I have. But either way, I could care less as I won't be hearing from you any more. You've proven that your value in earnest discussion here is 'lacking'.

Good bye.

[petronius]

127. All of that, just to put me on ignore!? DUzy worthy, for sure...

I won't bother to deconstruct this last post of yours then, but I sure hope you're going to be honest, and not sneak a peek when you note this 'ignored' reply in "My Posts"...

[DefenseLawyer]

80. Why is it always so extreme?

In your world there are apparently two choices: I must either accept every accusation of rape as true or I must think rape isn't a crime. I don't choose to live in your world. It's a complex world. It's not George Bush's "good v. evil" and "with us or against us" world. How is it reasonable to say that anyone who acknowledges that false rape charges have been made is somehow "pro rape" or "blaming the victim"? I don't deny that there are people in this world that truly do "blame the victim" in actual, proven cases of rape. Attitudes that imply "she wanted it" have no place in the discourse. I would submit that your "anyone who questions a rape accusation is anti woman and pro-rape" is just as ludicrous and destructive. You do a disservice to your cause by attacking anyone who dares RAISE A QUESTION about the validity of an unproven charge, when we know for an undisputed, absolute, 100% fact that there are sometimes false accusations. It's simply not "victim blaming" to seek the truth. Your aims are noble, but your rigid stance is nonsense.

[seabeyond]

85. FBI studies indicate that only 2% of all rape reports are false. yes, we know there are false claims

http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/vb.html

we must always be vigilant. kinda like the WHOLE of the police dept, especially the guys partner that knew something was up, that this woman was surely making a false claim.

[mistertrickster]

93. More than 100 rape convictions have been shown wrong by DNA evidence.

That doesn't mean that all those exonerated rapists are not guilty of anything. They may have raped others and not been charged or convicted, but it's a lot more than two percent.

"In 2002, DNA testing was used to exonerate Douglas Echols, a man who was wrongfully convicted in a 1986 rape case. Echols was the 114th person to be exonerated through post-conviction DNA testing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling

[seabeyond]

94. FBI studies indicate that only 2% of all rape reports are false. nt

[mistertrickster]

107. Could be as high as 15 percent according to the FBI itself . . .

Degrees of "Not True"
A certain percentage of rape complaints are classified as "unfounded" by the police and excluded from the FBI's statistics. For example, in 1995, 8% of all forcible rape cases were closed as unfounded, as were 15% in 1996 (Greenfeld, 1997). According to the FBI, a report should only be considered unfounded when investigation revealed that the elements of the crime were not met or the report was "false" (which is not defined) (FBI, 2007).

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

More from the same source:

The researchers further investigated those cases that the police, through their investigation, had ultimately determined were "false" or fabricated. During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure, it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.

[seabeyond]

120. "closed as unfounded" could easily be 2% false and the rest of percentage unfounded, not false

the other is garbage. the highest number i have ever seen for false report is with FBI saying UNDER 5%

if you want to get all over that UNDER 5%, then get on it, it is all yours....

[arely staircase]

89. are you talking about the Jamaica thing?

I was disturbed by that comment too. problem is I have always liked reading posts by that person. I'm still hoping it was a misunderstanding.

'rely

[The Doctor.]

98. Yes, there was a misunderstanding.

The poster in no way 'blamed the victim' or stated an opinion of her own. The only reason to be 'disturbed' is by assigning a value to the comment that was not present.

That would mean that the 'misunderstanding' is entirely your own.

[arely staircase]

99. Well communication is a two way street

and street and mentioning the fact the alleged victim was 31 and been to the alleged rapists house and in the same brief comment say many people dont believ the accuser is going to lead reasonable people to think that the poster thinks those facts are exculpatory. So please don't act like I have some sort of cognitive problem. If the poster didn't mean what she seems to be saying the miscommunication is on her (the writer's) part, not me the reader. Like I said I like that poster and enjoy her opinions.

[The Doctor.]

102. You just explained why YOU chose to assign intention to the post.

Not how it was the poster's 'fault' that you did so. When you say she 'seemed' to be saying something, you're saying that you assumed what the poster's intentions were. You can reasonably justify your assumption, but it is an assumption nonetheless.

That's entirely on you.

[arely staircase]

104. then what DID it mean? what do YOU assume the poster's intentions were? nt

[The Doctor.]

106. That's the great thing about not reading what's not there...

I need not 'assume' anything.

Here's what the poster said:

here in Jamaica there is much skepticism about this charge - the alleged victim is a 31 year old who was at the entertainer's home and apparently not for the first time.

It means this: "In Jamaica, there is much skepticism about this charge. The alleged victim is a 31 year old who has been at the entertainer's home before."

I paraphrased a little, but as you can see, it says what it says. It doesn't say "I'm skeptical" at all. If I really wanted to 'read into it', I might go so far as to presume that it means that lots of people in Jamaica have reason to believe the charges lack merit. That presumption is well-supported by the actual words and context of the original statement.

Your assumption that the poster has a position is not. One way to determine if someone has an opinion is to ask them. In this case, I imagine the poster would respond by saying, "I don't know what actually happened.", or some variation thereof.

[arely staircase]

115. ok, and i'm willing to giv the poster the benefit of the doubt because i don't believe, having read

the poster's writings for months, that she would be someone who would blame the alleged victim. but let us not pretend that when "there is much skepticism" is immediately followed by the age and the fact she had been to his house before, it is not logical to assume the latter is connected to the former, rather than apropos of nothing.

now, as i said, given who this poster is i will assume that these are simply statements of fact:

1) there is much skepticism

2) the alleged victim is 31

3) said person had been to the alleged rapists house before

rather than that numbers 2 and 3 validate number 1.

thank you for engaging in a calm, reasonable manner on this. my point all along has not been the poster was blaming the alleged victim but rather that it was not unreasonable to conclude she was - particularly if a reader was not familiar with thi particular poster and the worlview she usually presents at du.

now, i'm going to a super bowl party

'rely

[mistertrickster]

50. The "all men are potential rapists" cabal have already succeeded

in co-opting the discussion from a horrible rape by law-enforcement to other DUers and their "attitudes."

It's like Greek tragedy . . . the story never varies.

[The Doctor.]

52. It's disgusting.

They never miss an opportunity to turn a violent attack into a DU-bashing festival.

[mistertrickster]

53. Exactly, as if there aren't enough venues for liberals to get bashed

Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilley (now THERE'S a sexual predator, for ya), I have to hear it here too . . .

[arely staircase]

90. wow I think people let their antagonism toward

one another color these things. I was quite bothered by the comment redqueen is referring to as well - but I was bothered by the whole all men are potentially rapists business too.

[chrisa]

133. Nobody has ever said "All men are potential rapists."

I've never heard that line on DU before.

[mistertrickster]

134. Feminists say it all the time.

In my city, the Women's Studies Dept. took men's names from the phone book, blew them up to poster size and tacked them to telephone poles with the headline "potential rapists."

I've seen redqueen post the same thing here: rapists aren't perverts, they're just normal men doing what men do.

[seabeyond]

135. no. it is how YOU choose to interpret what is being said

if you refuse to listen to what someone says, you can quote about anything.

that is not what she or anyone is saying.

[mistertrickster]

137. So . . . you disagree that all men are potential rapists and

condemn the Women's Studies Departments around the country for their publicity stunt.

Thank you.

Good to know.

[seabeyond]

141. this would be a perfect example of what i was saying.... yet you expect to be taken seriously. nt

[EOTE]

140. The very words "all men are potential rapists" have been said NUMEROUS times on this board.

And not in a sarcastic way, either. So yes, that is exactly what many are saying.

[seabeyond]

142. especially if you dont listen to, recognize, hear what they are really saying. nt

[EOTE]

144. What they're really saying is "All men are potential rapists."

You know, because that's what was actually SAID. You know, with words? Those things we use to say things? You may think that we need to hear the inflection in one's voice, but this is the internet, where text conveys thoughts. You can try to play stupid, really, you're more than welcome to. But anyone with a functioning brain can see what's being said here.

[seabeyond]

145. one time. i will say one time, then i will no longer respond. the rapist is not the monster

psycho, guy behind the bush. the rapist can be the husband, the boy next door, the date, the party buddy, the friend.

saying all men are POTENTIAL rapists is to say, a woman does not look at a man, on a date and say, no way will he rape me. he is not a rapist. BUT... i dont know this man, he could as well as any other man i meet up with.

or.... you can pretend and say... all men are rapist, which is not being said.

[EOTE]

146. So you agree with this bullshit and incredibly offensive statement.

Notice that every time this asshattery is mentioned, it's somehow left out that "all women are potential rapists" as well. Funny how they seem to forget that. And that YOU are a potential child molester and killer as well. Hmmm, don't like that? YOU are a potential pedophile. Why is it that people aren't so fucking daft as to say shit like that? I refuse to believe that people who engage in these idiotic word games are truly that stupid.

[seabeyond]

147. " people aren't so fucking daft as to say shit like that?" i ask the same. i dont have any problem

understanding i am a potential child abuser. as a parent, i already understand this.

so i ask " people aren't so fucking daft as to say shit like that?"

[EOTE]

149. You're also a potential murderer, a potential psychopath.

In this case, potential is completely meaningless. So meaningless as it shouldn't be said. And once again, why is it that women are left out of this "potential rapist" group? Is it because it's not about making a rational statement, it's about lambasting an entire gender simply because one can. If you leave women out of this group, it's just more of your typical, misandrist bullshit. That's OK though, if you didn't spew out your misandrist bullshit nonstop, you simply wouldn't be you.

[seabeyond]

152. having a conversation with you is futile. i put the time posting in this subthread for other posters

so they have a clue what you and the other poster was talking about.

[EOTE]

155. Hold on a second, my sides hurt from laughing so hard.

This coming from someone who has yet to put together a coherent thought with words. Listen, you can either defend the comment or you can say that no one makes the comment. You can't do both. If you're going to defend the comment, you shouldn't pussyfoot around it. You should be going up to every man on the street and labeling them a potential rapist.

[mistertrickster]

163. Yeah, sometimes the only logical response to seabeyond

is just to shake one's head and walk away.

There's no there there sometimes.

[EOTE]

171. It's rather hard to provide a logical response to such insane rantings.

I do my best, but sometimes I'm just left scratching my head trying to decipher the indecipherable.

[chrisa]

158. Potential is not meaningless. It keeps us alive.

See my post before about getting into the car with a random person. Common sense dictates that this would be a stupid thing to do, because they could potentially be a killer.

Women are left out because they rape at an incredibly lesser rate than men - it's not even close. As a guy, if you're walking on a dimly lit street, you don't worry about someone attacking and raping you - it would really never happen. Plus, have you ever heard of a woman forcefully attacking a man on the street to rape him, or even raping a passed out guy? Me neither - it almost never happens.

Sorry that you feel that this is an attack on you, but it's really not - it's a common sense statement about how people already feel. It's simply saying that being careful around others is important.

[EOTE]

165. So first you say that no one here would say that, now you're defending the comment?

You should really make up your mind. The great majority of men WILL NEVER RAPE ANYONE. Yet some here feel the need to insult all men by saying that they're all potential rapists. But that same thinking, ALL WOMEN ARE POTENTIAL RAPISTS. Yet you never hear any of those misandrists say anything like that. Why do you think that is?

[chrisa]

167. It's not an insult to men - trying to tell you that.

It's common sense - I explained why in my response.

I also explained why in another post - women almost never rape. True they're also "potential rapists," but they almost never do - why care about such a rare event, versus men raping, which is a common problem?

I made that first post because I took the meaning to the way you're taking it - "potential" as in they will someday rape. Then, I understood the meaning and am now trying to get others to understand it. Basically, I forgot the context behind the statement - mostly because I didn't read enough.

[EOTE]

170. It IS an insult to men.

The great majority of men would never even think about raping someone. So if you're going to say that all men are potential rapists, even if a tiny minority ever would, you'd need to include women in the group too. It's extremely insulting and it's almost always used on DU to denigrate men. You don't see any men going around here saying that all women are potential child killers even though we see many women on the media killing their children. If you can't see why that's insulting, I really don't know what else to say.

[EOTE]

148. And by the way, I never said anyone said what you are suggesting.

That's why I put the words in quotes, do you know what those are? So you can quit with the bullshit and stop putting words in my mouth. I don't need to pretend anything, I quoted exactly what was said. Dozens of times I hear that no one said this, then you said I misinterpreted what was said. There is no misinterpretation, I'm not so daft like many here. That's why I used quotes, you should really garner a clue as to what those quotes mean. You are an adult, after all.

[chrisa]

168. No, I think you just don't get what the statement means

"Potential rapist" doesn't mean they will rape, or are inclined to do so. I associated potential with this at first as well, and was wrong. The statement has a completely different meaning.

See post 158 for my explanation of "potential rapist" is not an insult towards men at all.

[EOTE]

169. Your mind changed really quickly on this matter.

First you said that no one here would say that, that seems to me that you think the comment is abhorrent. Now you seem to be defending the comment. Before we proceed any further, you should clarify where you stand on the issue.

[chrisa]

153. I would love to see where RedQueen wrote this.

Show me where she actually said, "rapists aren't perverts, they're just normal men doing what men do."

[mistertrickster]

157. Ask her yourself. See what she says. nt

[chrisa]

159. I'm sure she'll respond here, but do you have any evidence of this in the meantime?

I have yet to see any.

[mistertrickster]

161. Your guess is wrong. See my previous post. nt

[chrisa]

162. Which one bud?

There's like 300 responses in this thread.

Edit: Nevermind - the one below this one, right?

I didn't get what you said RedQueen said from her actual statements. In fact, I actually agree with them - she's just saying that many rapists are in fact normal guys on the surface who have hidden problems. She didn't say all men are rapists. I think you misunderstood what she meant.

[mistertrickster]

164. Sheesh . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002187959

Tansy Gold Fri Jan 20, 2012

there are "perfectly normal" men who can blame a 10 or 12 year old girl for enticing them into rape.

Later . . .

Many rapists are "normal" guys who do not consider what they do to be "forcing" sex on their victims. . . .

These are the guys we're talking about. We're not talking about raving lunatics who skulk in parking garages

And later . . .

that's why the whole issue with "all men are potential rapists" hit a nerve. No one wants to think of himself as "deviant," and since only "deviants" commit "rape," normal, non-deviant men can't be rapists.

Unless and until there's an admission made that it's the CULTURE that makes NORMAL men do things that are defined as rape, we're not going to get anywhere.

And later . . .

We're talking about the "normal" guy who thinks he's entitled to have sex with a woman he just spent $200 on for dinner and a show, and when she decides he's not the kinda guy she wants to go to bed with, he forces her. . . . Yet that's what happened , and he's going to leave her and go back to his "normal" life, to his job and his friends, and he's not going to feel the least bit guilty about what he did because he was entitled to it. Everybody knows that. And anyway, he's not some sicko pervert hanging around dark alleys; he's a normal guy.

Redqueen responds: "thank you for posting that here."

*****

Redqueen

I've seen men say that they 'just got their signals mixed up'. Those aren't men who know and don't care. Those are men who have been confused by the messages in rape culture.

[mistertrickster]

160. Here's the results of a quick bone-dig

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002187959

Tansy Gold Fri Jan 20, 2012

there are "perfectly normal" men who can blame a 10 or 12 year old girl for enticing them into rape.

Later . . .

Many rapists are "normal" guys who do not consider what they do to be "forcing" sex on their victims. . . .

These are the guys we're talking about. We're not talking about raving lunatics who skulk in parking garages

And later . . .

that's why the whole issue with "all men are potential rapists" hit a nerve. No one wants to think of himself as "deviant," and since only "deviants" commit "rape," normal, non-deviant men can't be rapists.

Unless and until there's an admission made that it's the CULTURE that makes NORMAL men do things that are defined as rape, we're not going to get anywhere.

And later . . .

We're talking about the "normal" guy who thinks he's entitled to have sex with a woman he just spent $200 on for dinner and a show, and when she decides he's not the kinda guy she wants to go to bed with, he forces her. . . . Yet that's what happened [she was raped], and he's going to leave her and go back to his "normal" life, to his job and his friends, and he's not going to feel the least bit guilty about what he did because he was entitled to it. Everybody knows that. And anyway, he's not some sicko pervert hanging around dark alleys; he's a normal guy.

Redqueen responds: "thank you for posting that here."

*****

Redqueen

I've seen men say that they 'just got their signals mixed up'. Those aren't men who know and don't care. Those are men who have been confused by the messages in rape culture.

[EOTE]

138. Well, you're not paying very close attention then.

Because it's been said NUMEROUS times.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002187959#post106

[chrisa]

151. Fair enough. I can't really argue against that.

But the statement in itself is not necessarily untrue. All men, and women too, are potential rapists. They're also potential killers, potential - everything.

Would you get into a car with a random person? No one would - because they could potentially be dangerous.

So, you are right, I am wrong - it has been said on DU before. The statement in itself isn't exactly bad in the way I described it. On the other hand, saying that all men ARE rapists is an ignorant and extremist statement.

[seabeyond]

166. in order to really address rape, we have to at the least, be honest

and recognize that so many of the rapes are not from the psychopath, monster hiding behind the tree.

the majority of the rapes are committed by the regular joe.

i personally feel it is an environment of entitlement and conditioning and today, normalizing and using rape as entertainment. but that is just a personal opinion.

but when we have these discussions, it is damn near impossible to get an acknowledgement that the very young men raping are not the monsters we like to create them. it is more a social problem and issue.

that was the point of those posts you read.

if a person chooses to ignore the intent and purpose of the post, then they can create whatever they like from them. using them as ammunition. i think it is a dishonest manner in arguing.

i didnt particular like seeing the manner it was addressed, for the very reason i see on this subthread. but i cannot argue with it either, and it was a manner to get conversation to get beyond the "monster".

to suggest women too are potential rapists when FBI states they are under 2% of the rapes and men over 98% of the rapes is like equating what dems do and repugs and saying they are both the same.

they arent. and imo, it is yet again a way to derail a very important issue that needs to be addressed honestly in order to recognize and address.

[EOTE]

173. To suggest that ALL MEN are potential rapists when a very small number of them are

is making the same damned logical fallacy. Of course you don't know what a logical fallacy is, so you don't recognize that. You can say that all men are potential rapists when an extremely small number ever do. Yet you can't say the same thing for women because they rape in smaller numbers than men. There is NO LOGICAL CONSISTENCY to that line of reasoning. But then again, you're not really one much for logic, are you?

[polly7]

174. BULLSHIT.

"the very young men raping are not the monsters we like to create them. it is more a social problem and issue."

A rapist is a sick, f* rapist. Only in your mind does one rapist differ from another. The pain and brutality are no different, nor are the after-effects, except that trust is probably going to be an even greater issue for many years after. You haven't got a clue.

[chrisa]

175. I can understand what you mean - women almost never rape

It's like I said above, when was the last time you ever heard of a female raping a man? I struggle to come up with examples. However, I still feel that anyone is a potential rapist, no matter who they are, given how we are applying the "potential" label.

I'm not trying to minimize our culture's misogyny problems. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics (given how titled the rape statistics are towards men doing it). What I meant was, both men and women CAN rape, and have in the past.

I also tried to explain this in post 167.

[The Doctor.]

176. Here it is, on DU:

Third paragraph, second sentence:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2716692&mesg_id=2721613

That it came from a self-identified 'male' only makes it much more heinous. It feeds into the horrible anti-male sentiment among a thankfully small number of DUers.

I appreciate that you deal from a position of reason. Asking for examples of a claim around here can make you a label-magnet as it has me.

[Honeycombe8]

88. I know what the poster is referring to. Some OP you apparently didn't see...

she probably should've provided a link to it. It wasn't fiction. It was a post by what seemed to be a male about someone hitting a female officer who "deserved it." And a number of responders who agreed with that. As I recall, that's what it was.

[The Doctor.]

96. Link? I'd like to have a look.

If there are people on DU who think rape is 'okay' or go around 'blaming the victim', I'd like to know so I can put them on ignore.

As far as 'hitting an officer', why would it matter whether it's a man hitting a woman, a woman hitting a man, a man hitting a man, or a woman hitting a woman? Obviously I'd want to know if an officer who was hit by a person was being somehow abusive. If I decided that the officer was being abusive, then I might agree that the officer deserved it.

Just because the officer is female doesn't mean she's automatically a victim. But it's rather interesting that such is always the presumption.

[McCamy Taylor]

97. Um...I don't see six posts saying she deserved it before this (number 2) post.

So I guess you are referring to some other thread. Links please?

[LetTimmySmoke]

105. Do we have to engage in this kind of vitriol? No one here thinks she deserved it.

[mistertrickster]

124. And yet a vociferous few love to tell the rest of us

that WE think the rape victim deserved it.

[Muskypundit]

5. He sodomized THEN raped her? wuh?

How is that still not rape....

[seabeyond]

6. FBI just recently changed definition of rape

To include sodomy. It use to not be in numbers for rape.

[joshcryer]

7. Throw away the key.

Good to see this pig getting the book thrown at him. Sounds like we had a just jury.

[sce56]

8. To Protect and to Serve!

I hope she can sue the city for failure to police their Police!

[1monster]

100. Agreed. According to the article, the convicted cop had complaints of sexual

assult filed against him to the prosecutor in the past which he chose not to persue just as he chose not to persue this one. Sounds to me like the prosecutor should be investigated too.

[Iggo]

18. That cop is the worst kind of scum.

The worst. Advocating prison rape, on the other hand, is wrong. No one should be raped. Not even the worst kind of scum.

[backscatter712]

42. The biggest problem is that this particular badged piece of shit would be doing the prison raping.

Everyone imagines he'd be on the receiving end, but I'd suspect otherwise.

[renie408]

47. Oh, I don't know. He had to hide behind his badge.

Without it, I imagine he is going to be feeling a little exposed and insecure. Also, he is going to be a bad cop in prison. I don't think he is going to have an easy time of it.

[LiberalLoner]

62. I agree, rape is horrible. Shouldn't happen to anyone. Not even to those who rape.

But I am glad he is in prison and not hurting anyone else and if I heard that he was suffering some in prison from, say, not liking the prison food, part of me would be glad for that.

[Snake Alchemist]

10. Take a look at this human trash.

Thank goodness for internal affairs who don't follow the idiotic "brothers in blue" code.

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_enUS438&biw=1366&bih=617&tbm=isch&tbnid=9wqDYYok9dwKkM:&imgrefurl=http://hispanicnewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2012/01/former-milwaukee-police-officer-cates_11.html&docid=1Kyy9xsrgsf-tM&imgurl=&w=123&h=171&ei=V9QtT8WiOISq2QXhxJDsDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=630&vpy=174&dur=1554&hovh=136&hovw=98&tx=99&ty=32&sig=102009756355653828756&page=1&tbnh=129&tbnw=93&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

[arely staircase]

24. you mean by NOT arresting him? he was fired for "loafing" on the job

even after they had dna evidence. there was no prosecution until she got a lawyer who then got the feds involved. internal affairs didn't do squat.

[Snake Alchemist]

36. Could have been an issue with the DA.

At least they did something.

[arely staircase]

68. The only people who did anything was the us attorney and the

FBI. If you want to be thankful for anyone it is them. the police department failed to arrest him when they had the same evidence the Feds had in their successful prosecution.

[sufrommich]

11. Can someone explain why the article says he

sodomized her and then he raped her ? Aren't they one and the same?

[obamanut2012]

12. Not until recently

The FBI just changed the legal definition of what is rape. Sodomy used to be a separate category.

[sufrommich]

15. Wow, how strange.Thanks for the info. nt

[Angry Dragon]

22. Sodomy can also be oral sex

[mia]

37. Not if you're a woman. n/t

[Yo_Mama]

13. Truly horrible

As the case headed for trial, Gina Barton of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that Cates had been investigated for illegal behavior on five previous occasions, three of them involving sexual misconduct. Two of those were with prisoners. The third was with a 16 year-old and that case had been referred to the Milwaukee district attorney’s office, which declined to prosecute. The priors came as no surprise to the 19-year-old who was now accusing him of raping her while he somehow remained employed as a cop.

You'll end up wanting to vomit when you read the entire story. What this poor woman endured - not to mention the other victims.

[stuntcat]

14. Where again did this take place? America you say? Glorious US of A?

okay sry y'all.

[Politicalboi]

16. I hope she sues

For false arrest, and the prosecutor for not wanting to file charges, and their failure of firing him years ago.

[Iggo]

17. Yay Cops!

They're the best!

[Odin2005]

20. These fuckers are above the law they are supposed to enforce!

May they all go to hell, every single one of them.

[Snake Alchemist]

26. the fact that he's facing a life sentence

Contradicts that.

[October]

74. I think the fact that it's NEWS that he's been convicted is the point. Very unusual.

/nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. What, you mean the one who was convicted and is facing a maximum of life in prison?

I don't think you've thought that through...

[provis99]

30. he wasn't charged in several other sexual assaults.

So yes, he did "get away with it".

[Zalatix]

21. So when do we start fighting to cut funding for these police gangs?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. When you want crime rates to go up.

When people have researched it, they've found that number of police officers on the beat is one of the strongest influences on crime rates.

[Zalatix]

35. Fat lot of good it did this woman. And wait'll you see this

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44868091/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/kansas-capital-city-repeals-domestic-violence-law/

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. I'm a mathematician. You can probably guess my opinion of the value of anecdotal evidence.

The domestic violence thing looks horrific but a complete change of subjest.

[Zalatix]

118. Not really a change of subject. My point is

we're already seeing law enforcement services being cut.

In addition, the cops have a "blue code" which pits them against everyone else. They're literally a gang, and they protect their own. We're evolving into a police state where the biggest threat we're going to face is the police.

There are other ways to protect the public and they have been discussed on the DU. I wish I had kept a link to a few threads to show you.

[pokerfan]

23. Disgusting

Absolutely revolting.

[saras]

25. What I would think of as "good cops" would have offed this guy a decade ago.

If police are going to be ALLOWED to develop as strong as an "us against them" culture as they have been, it had damned well be protecting something that is worth protecting. He wasn't. She was - as were all the ones before.

And they wouldn't have to even do anything bad like shoot inaccurately - just let him walk into what he deserved without backup.

[Dawson Leery]

27. The potential of a Life In Prison sentence must get the boys at the FOP riled up.

[T S Justly]

31. How many bad cops are there...

In a police state?

[Iggo]

69. Close to 100%...

...taking into consideration the fact that the good cops cover for the bad cops, making them bad cops, too.

[blaze]

121. any cite? nt

[Iggo]

128. I'm guessing close to 100%.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

[Initech]

33. WTF!!!!!!

[Crunchy Frog]

34. This is the sort of case

where you hope the guy will get raped in prison. Repeatedly.

[Iggo]

71. Rooting for rape is wrong.

Take a step back and you'll see it.

[seabeyond]

78. agreed. nt

[uppityperson]

103. Shame on you for advocating rape. Please delete this offensive post. Thank you.

[mucifer]

38. Chicago has been really bad with systemic police torturing black men

until they got confessions of murder many were put on death row.

john burge was the police commander who ordered this and he got away with this with a 4 year sentence for perjury because the "statute of limitation for torture had passed".

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-07-14/news/ct-met-confession-investigation-20110714_1_jon-burge-chicago-police-cmdr-torture-allegations

This is why the death penalty was stopped in Illinois.

[Blue_Tires]

156. thanks...I'd forgotten about that case

[jsmirman]

39. Great story - reminds me why I might not give up on being a lawyer

I went into this because I want to make the world a better place.

I have very strong negative feelings toward the current Court, and believe a passel of intellectually dishonest and generally abysmal decisions have made it much harder for a lawyer who wishes to build a practice around standing up for the little guy.

I'm five months out from getting my JD, and I'm not sure which direction I will go in next. I know that I will never be ignorant with regard to the law again, and that it will forever be a tool I can wield, not some mystical web to bind me. To know the law is to have ownership of the law - no matter how those on the bench may twist and contort it, I know how the law works.

Reading this reminds me that someday I want someone to look at my picture and know that there is someone they can trust - someone who is in the game to stand up for what is right. I read toward the end of the article and was terrified that there would not be a happy ending - it's nice to read a story where the good guys won.

[oberliner]

40. Inspiring words

Good luck in your endeavours!

[jsmirman]

130. I will try - the truth is

that our system of enforcement fundamentally depends on private enforcement (lawsuits supplementing regulations by extracting costs as the price of corporate or individual bad actions).

If we could just somehow get another vote on the Court - the things that we could do. They think they are men of principle (and in the cases of Roberts and Alito - and part of this is my respect for both their legal acumen and the sincerity of their questions during argument - I think they are sincere in their beliefs), but their judgments (which I not only think are "morally" wrong, but I also disagree with, looking at them from a purely legal perspective) have set loose so much misery on a world that is already ailing. It's an incredible thing to think about.

I was pondering this looking at the elaborate grave of Rufus Peckham, the justice who authored Lochner v. New York. I couldn't help but think of how much suffering this man caused in the world because he was so damnably wrong.

[1monster]

101. We need good honest people in the Justice system from the judges down

to the lowest meter maid.

Enough honest people will eventually change things.

But watch your back...

[jsmirman]

131. You are so right

including the last thing you said.

But I refuse to be afraid anymore. There's too much in the balance - it's like leaping away from the cliff - at a certain point, you know you've got to make your move. I'm at that point. I will not be cowed into standing by when corporations do wrong to the public just because they can.

[The Doctor.]

45. Finally an animal with a badge is going to prison.

At least he damn well better.

[BlueIris]

74. '(C)ourt...in April, when he faces a maximum of life in prison.'

Hope he enjoys his stay.

[polly7]

58. That poor woman. I hope she gets support to see her through this, far beyond the punishment

of her rapist. What they 'all' put her through is absolutely horrible.

[XanaDUer]

82. Sadly, it's happened before

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-5th-circuit/1322695.html

Before REAVLEY, HIGGINBOTHAM and BARKSDALE, Circuit Judges.
Thomas Lee Kolker,Greenstein & Kolker, Austin, TX, Edward J. Tuddenham, Wiseman, Durst, Tuddenham & Owen, Austin, TX, for plaintiff-appellee.Rosendo Rodriguez, Jr., Wichita Falls, TX, Catherine Lee Kyle, James Norman Ludlum, Ludlum & Ludlum, Austin, TX, for defendant-appellant.Darrell Gerard-Marc Noga, Peter Mark Roossien, Cooper & Aldous, Dallas, TX, for movant-appellant.

In this case, a Texas sheriff and a county appeal a judgment awarding damages to a murder suspect that the sheriff raped. ? We affirm the award against the sheriff individually, reverse the judgment against the county, and remand for a new trial.

[Beacool]

129. This story made me sick to my stomach.

A young woman calls the cops for help, instead she ends up sodomized and raped by the same cops who were supposed to aid and protect her. We live in an upside down world.

I'm so glad that this animal eventually got his just deserts.

May she recover emotionally from her wounds. Her best revenge is to have a happy and fulfilling life. My best to her and her children.

[Mr Dixon]

132. SMH

Madness, things are getting out of hand really fast.

[redqueen]

136. No, things are improving.

This isn't new, and it isn't all that uncommon.

She was listened to, and believed... and it's actually being punished, so things are actually getting better. Ever so very, very slowly.

[trumad]

139. Can someone explain the sodomized and then raped comment?

Aren't you being raped if your sodomized against your will?

[seabeyond]

143. only recently FBI include sodomy as rape

the rape numbers did not include forced bj, male rape, children rape, sodomy.