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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYou ain't gonna do shit
They figured it out.
Who's gonna stop us? Most Americans don't read political websites and blogs. Their kids want milk, they buy milk at the supermarket. A two minute report on CNN is easily forgotten when the latest celebrity scandal breaks.
What are you gonna do if the politician we own puts this law in the books? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do if you're making less money now than you were 30 years ago? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do if we bust your union? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do if we close down the factory that provided your grand father, father and you a means to provide for your families? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do if we privatize your rotting town and part out what's left? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do if we cut off the social services you now need to survive? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do when we steal the Social Security account that you paid into for 50 years? You ain't gonna do shit.
What are you gonna do if you protest and we beat you, arrest you on trumped-up charges and then have Erin Burnett make fun of you? You ain't gonna shit.
And when it's all gone and we're living a life of luxury with the money we took from you? Well, you know the drill.
Suckers.
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cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)I am out of the country. Just 1.5 more years!!!!
Thank god!
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)My guess would be Japan 
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
SylviaD
(721 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)Somewhere in South America sounds good. Maybe Uruguay.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)live on cat food in my retirement or be financially wiped out by a catastrophic illness.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Uruguay's provision of free primary through university education has contributed to the country's high levels of literacy and educational attainment. However, the emigration of human capital has diminished the state's return on its investment in education. Remittances from the roughly 18% of Uruguayans abroad amount to less than 1 percent of national GDP. The emigration of young adults and a low birth rate are causing Uruguay's population to age rapidly.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2257.html#uy
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)This is a good time to get out before the borders are sealed off. People may think I'm off the wall agreeing, but look at history.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)cant afford to wait.
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)before it wakes up...maybe.
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)potential tools to enable suppression of the masses. Even, if, when the citizenry wakes up, and the 'deer in the headlight' people say WTF ... it well might then be too late ... perhaps.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)I think it's a rather prophetic description of the future US.
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)
tavalon
(27,985 posts)But think globally. Global warming is going to change the sea level so Japan may not be all that great - so many people on less usable land.
No, you shouldn't wait. There are plenty of people who will castigate you and say things like "don't let the door" blah, blah, blah, but I'm not one of them. If not for my severely disabled son, I would have been a Canadian a decade ago.
This is the end of empire. And the end of any empire is ugly and scary.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)tavalon
(27,985 posts)but it doesn't look to be in the cards.
lark
(23,097 posts)I'm taking care of my 89 year old mother right now so stuck here until she's no longer with us. Once that happens, we are moving away, not sure where but definitely away from here. There's a town in chile that has lots of ex-pats that sounds nice and Belize is interesting too? Wish Iceland weren't so cold, that place has a humane government that is NOT out for the 1% at the expense of the working class, like most of the world is. They actually jailed their theiving bankers, while ours just took the money and got away with it - 100%.
Where are you going?
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)European countries would be great. I just don't plan on hanging out here as they turn the US into a Somalia with Walmarts.
lark
(23,097 posts)Europe is too expensive for us or it'd be choice #1, stayed in France for about a month 2 years ago, absolutely loved it! So. America is much cheaper and we don't have a ton of money so there or Central America is where we will probably end up. Daughter's going with a guy from Brazil, so that could be a possibility, but even Chile would be much closer than US to Brazil. We've probably got at least a few more years with mom, so have time to make the decision.
Staying in this worker hating country is not an option for us, long term.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Japan is still a possiblity, although there are numerous downsides to it.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)I am retired and disabled. Do any of these countries provide health care for the already retired and disabled?
Oakenshield
(614 posts)Never cared for summer, the frigid north of Iceland will be quite a welcome change for me. Even if it does gets bothersome, it's a paltry price to pay for living in REAL democratic society. Best wishes to you on your journey!
lark
(23,097 posts)
xchrom
(108,903 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Eventually, some key component overheats, critical backup systems fail, control surfaces don't respond, the thing crashes and burns.
pocoloco
(3,180 posts)
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)students to display the concept of saturation. Drops of a clear liquid are slowly counted as they drop into a beaker with a clear solution. After a certain number of drops the solution in the beaker gets to a point where the addition of single drop turns the entire solution crimson red, Maybe Americans will behave the same.
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)one drop made a difference. ... yep, there is a breaking point and then the collective response occurs.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)then I won't live long enough to see said saturation point achieved.
the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Seems like we're close but I thought that when Raygun fired the air traffic controllers.
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)in stride. Another WTF in my life.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Against drones, cameras, warrantless wiretaps, the massive internet intervention, etc...they think they have us trapped.
They are making a really big mistake. They always do.
and it will be very ugly. But I think this time it will be definitive. If the climate doesn't kill us all first.
DeadEyeDyck
(1,504 posts)But I think a more accurate parallel would be Le Chatelier's principle.
A system changes in responce to a stressor just enough to relieve the stress and find a new equilibrium.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)the system you describe is one without a buffer.
The purpose of the buffer is to allow the solution to continue absorbing more and more and more and more of whatever,
In the real world, poverty acts as that buffer. People are so poor that they can't afford to... whatever. Complain, etc.
I think we're still in the buffer phase. But eventually that ends too. But it takes a loooooooooooong time and by then, things are really, really bad.
Warpy
(111,255 posts)and the most amazing part is that the PTB never see it coming. People prize predictability and safety but resentment keeps building just under the surface. Finally something that might be trivial compared to all the other shit that's been pulled on them happens and the whole system convulses and massive changes are made quickly or plutocrats and their bureaucrats start to lose their heads. Literally.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)The four stages of reforming major societal problems (made up just now, by me):
1. Awareness
2. Despair/Anger
3. Action
4. Change
I'd say we're well into Stage 2, on the verge of Stage 3.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)as it will take decades
(unless of course the goal is to stop it and go back to the Bush's)
reformist2
(9,841 posts)... there still is a LOT of uncertainty as to how to move forward. Too much playing defense (protecting SS, Medicare, etc.) and not enough offense (proposing truly new ideas that will guarantee financial security for all.)
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)to be patient? Trust a president that gives to wall street banks and wants to cut SS and Medicare? Tell those living in there cars or tents to be patient knowing that the president hasnt moved away from his reliance on corporatists, who listens to Republican economists, who appoints people like Monsanto and GE CEO's?
Wanting our hungry children fed isnt instant gratification and I think it callous to say such.
And the ultimate sick rationalization, "unless of course the goal is to stop it and go back to the Bush's". "Accept the 20 lashes with a smile, it's so much better than 50 lashes (bush)".
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)as they would be grandfathered in, so its using their names and is also not so relevant as there are 325 million Americans.
95% of the core President Obama voters/Hillary Clinton voters are not protesting anything.
It is the Mitt Romney/ Ron Paul/ Libertarians/ that make up the vast protest movement now,
and/or finance it.(like they financed Nader).
All the protesters did over the years was they stopped 80 years of progress
therefore, it will be 2088 when things are perfect, if the protesters don't again set
the clock back 2x everytime they protest
BTW, if one is on message, then it has to be said-
And I must say, it is far more relevant to be on the side of Angela and Joanne
who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and vicitims of racial injustices
than that punk kid who admittedly knew on purpose what he did, as he said when he plead
guilty. He gets zero sympathy from me.
As for the example on the bottom paragraph
3 steps forward is alot better than 2 steps back.
FDR didn't get what he wanted instantly, and neither did LBJ.
Fools were the ones that protested him out to get Richard Nixon.
actions=consequences.
It takes work, hard work, working within to move things forward
Protest is easy and takes things back
Jeb Bush is smiling somewhere, knowing how easy it will be for him to score the nomination in his party.
President Obama btw, singlehandedly saved the US Auto industry.
woops, the protesters forget that he saved tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of union jobs and an entire industry.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)No offense intended but I find your posts delusional. Esp. your obsession with Ralph Nader. You have elevated him to a stature worthy of a god.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)might think you are serious.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)when one resorts to personal insult as opposed to arguing the viewpoint
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)OVER AND OVER AGAIN, then it's clear you have an agenda that's not subject to change by argument. Ergo, it's not worth arguing anymore. It's an "agree to disagree" moment.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Figuring Lincoln, FDR, LBJ, Obama are 150 years apart
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)The bailouts began before he took office.
More revisionist history.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)You said singlehandedly. How can you hand the reins over if you are doing it yourself.
You make no sense, as usual.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)"Kinder/Gentler" (or in other words a little slower), but it is obvious that President Obama buys into the NeoLiberal state.
NeoLiberalism will eventually show itself for what it is, Darwinian Socialism.
President Obama is kinder and tamps down some of the harsher immediate affects, but many of his policies will accellerate NeoLiberalism, not roll it back.
I voted for him in both elections, but I do not have any delusions (any longer) that his policies are a "win". They are only the lesser of two evils.
In some ways he even gets in the way, such as the way he "Frames" discussion reinforces Neoliberism in the minds of the public and damages the momentum of those attempting to change this direction.
Our choices are reminding me more and more of political conditions in most post Soviet states. In those countries there is a "facade" claiming to be democratic, but everyone knows that the political choices are all in it for their own enrichment and benefit. Each leader realizes they must throw a few scraps to the public while they are in office. They keep up just enough programs for the people to keep their pain below a certain threshold. The difference is the population there understands their relationship to their politicians. In the US it is working more and more in the same way, only we have a much stronger illusion in place.
delrem
(9,688 posts)"95% of the core President Obama voters/Hillary Clinton voters are not protesting anything."
At this point there is no illusion that these folk aren't corporatists through and through, that they aren't identical in every military/economic way with a so-called "centrist" republican/dlc/third-way agenda, an agenda further right than Nixon dared set out. An agenda that "bipartisans" delight in claiming isn't shifting rightward with each week/month/year of a "negotiation" process that puts only right-wing policies on the table, and which preemptively concedes that the very existence of a "leftist agenda" is a sham not worthy of mention.
I want to correct you on one thing: Mitt Romney's core supporters aren't protesting a damn thing. Most of these didn't even bother to vote they were so fucking happy with Obama boasting of Romneycare as his greatest achievement (while Romney was forced to an even more extreme right that repudiated his own past. O&B = 60.7% vs R&R 37.5% in Mass.), slathering on backroom deals with the pharmaceutical companies as icing on that cake.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/obamacares-backroom-deal/
You might be so comfortable that you don't think that kind of backroom dealing, which flatly contradicts O's pre-election rhetorical posturing, makes a very big difference. But I'll tell you as someone who experiences the exact opposite under the Canadian health/pharmaceutical plans that it makes a huge difference indeed. Such a difference that no political party in Canada, no matter how far right, would dream of trying to emulate Obama on the direction he's taken the USA. There'd be blood on the streets. If you want to know why, look at the difference of pricing and policy of US vs Canada. So why as a Canadian do I even give a shit about the US? Because on essentially important issues like this the US holds us and the rest of the civilized world back, and the pressure that the US puts on to regress is a pain in the ass.
It's time for americans to realize that for all their incredible achievements as a country, they're headed down a blind alley of corporate and military absolutism, and that mixed socialist/capitalist economies are the wave of the future.
Obama didn't start some 80yr "revolution" in the US that'll lead to utopia in 2088. He stayed the course. He said it's better to look forward than to look back, which is the statement of a man who has no beef whatsoever with the past and who wants to use the momentum of the previous administration, W's, to pursue and hopefully accelerate the identical policies. And to understand the total fuxoredness of *that* little gem consider this write-up explaining the incredible contradiction that the man is capable of, that went under the radar of those like you who promote the continuation of a status quo:
When presidential sermons collide
Obama tells the Indonesians that looking backward to their past abuses is a prerequisite for moving forward
BY GLENN GREENWALD
http://www.salon.com/2010/03/25/obama_134/
Well, it's nice that he cares about Indonesia.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)by big money. There is really no place to move. Bit by bit Europe's safety nets are being dismantled. Perhaps Latin America.. but I just think that when it goes here we will take everyone down with us.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)If you think America doesn't want both sides together, and compromise, then you don't know America at all.
Back room deals are essential out of the media.
If it were up to me, I would get rid of all the 24/7/365 media and let the people do the job they were hired for, which isn't posturing to the senate/house cameras.
We don't need to see a postal deliver deliver to every house.
We don't need to see a sanitation man on camera picking up everyone's cans
We don't need to see negotiations played out on camera
And we never, ever, ever need to see a President on trial or in jail.
Don't like someone?
Don't elect them.
All the conspiracy theories about W then he just left in the helicopter.
No coup'd;etat, both him and Cheney left.
goodbye.
The country is too important to drag down in a bitter divorce fight between two ex spouses.
Makes no sense
And for what?
Is there a 100% chance of conviction? All it takes is ONE juror to not get a guilty verdict,
and those conspiracy theorists who think someone is so evil, well, then they would buy ONE
juror and get the hung jury. So why bother?
After all, look at Watergate. In the end, who was the big victor?
It wasn't America.
It was the Bush family. They got themselves in power, and got rid of Nixon.
America is complaining now about the far right conservatives, well, alot of good it did to get rid of the most liberal
Don't like their style? Don't elect Jeb.
They are just two men. No different than any other. They are born, they will expire when their number is up. They pay taxes. They get mail. They have their trash taken.
People seem to think these people are devils and Gods.
It takes a village as Hillary said. And it does.
Demonizing the enemy is so Rush Limbaugh.
The ACLU takes cases on all sides (like how they freed Oliver North and therefore stopped any further investigation of Iran/Contra and any of the people involved all were pardoned anyhow, so how they could be investigated, well, they can't.
vengence is for those with high blood pressure
Letting go and moving forward is wellness.
A slogan that is so true was found in Clint Eastwoods "Million dollar baby" and it said
"A winner does what a loser won't."
A winner is seated
A loser isn't.
And everyone does have an angle, to make it in America, well, that is the American way.
There are no Supermen, nor are there AntiChrist's.
The only thing bad is the NRA and any gun/bullet in the hand of a private citizen.
Any liberal should work for the removal/eradication of all guns/bullets in the hands of private citizens.
Come speak to me about other issues, once that most important one is done.
Until then, anything President Obama and Hillary Clinton do, is fine by me.
They are working for the betterment of America.
Jeb Bush and Rand Paul have other ideas.
There is a choice
a
b
one or the other.
When the OP says "you ain't gonna do shit" well
I am.
I am picking the choice of A instead of B.
any other is not a choice at all, but a ticket to whine later on, but those having no stake in the matter as they didn't do the adult thing, which is decide between A and B when there is no CDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
delrem
(9,688 posts)You're simply adding to an already solidified impression produced by earlier posts of yours.
It would surprise me if you did pay some attention to Glenn Greenwald's articles. You support every government crime that Glenn Greenwald's writings bring to light, the whole continuity of it from W. through O., and as you show by kindly providing yourself as example, everything that people who support gov't crime of that scale want to keep hidden.
That you're against the principles enunciated in the constitution of the USA doesn't surprise me either - as it was already clear to me that you thought politicians should be above the law.
I can also understand why an anti-civil-libertarian like yourself wants to keep back room dealings like those of a corporate US gov't party divvying up the spoils with the pharmaceutical companies, as part of highly publicized revamping of a medical care bill, in the back room - and in fact, as you say, keep all gov't dealings hidden. False and empty rhetoric for the bovine masses, back room fact for the overlords. So it's no wonder that you're pleased.
I don't know what satisfaction you get from holding the opinions that you do. I understand why Romney wanted to keep the contents of his "47%" speech to a select audience of oligarchs hidden, and of course it follows from your opinions above that you think what is best for Romney and the oligarchs is best for all, but I don't know what you get from holding such an opinion. Even if Romney were zapped into Obama's body. I doubt that you're an oligarch or one who would be privy to such a high level backroom deal, with $trillions$ at stake, and the blood and destruction of wars at stake. Maybe it's just the pleasant feeling of sticking your index fingers in your ears and singing lalalalalaitssuchablissfulfeeling....
Scuba
(53,475 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)and we get our reward in Heaven when we are dead, not too mention all the Good Karma(tm) we accrue in our Cosmic Bank Account(tm).
Have considered the broad nature of your dualism there? Instant gratification vs. decades?
Many people have worked hard and been activists for decades and the PTB have made instant gratification, (act now!) a way of life in order to sell products.
Gratification, (justice and economic equality) are not about a black-and-white bifurcation of time.
The Fortune 500 would like us to live in extreme views because both work for them in their dominant paradigm that turns us all into nothing more than transactions, (and profit) in the neo-liberal agenda.
You might want to consider a middle way that is empowering rather than espousing unworkable and unrealistic extremist time frames.
pocoloco
(3,180 posts)and we were not on the winning side!
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)MORE greater stuff happened in the immediate aftermath couple of years, than at any time in the history of the nation
LBJ did what others only dreamed of doing.
Working hand in hand with Dr. King.
And JFK was the one that hired McNamara.
the myth that democratic party is a party of pacifists was started to divide the party by the other sides.
It most certainly was never true.
Iraq was wrong, however, nobody was against the first waves of Vietnam, just later on.
And republicans proven that they sabatoged peace (just like years later in Iran/Contra).
The revolution is blown by the mob like action of protesters too quick to look for instant gratification instead of the hard work of continuous in office through a very vast and diverse country.
Take the post added by someone else talking about Arizona office holders needing bullet proof jackets.
Wouldn't it be easier just to ban all private citizens guns and bullets, than the expense of bullet proof jackets?
It's not like a gun or bullet ever stopped anything but a life, and its ludacrist for the rebels to think they can stop a country with puny bullets and guns except in a very negative sense.
Make everyone fear the gun, and bankrupt the country.
How reverse it is.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)That is when we lost it.
We bought the lie of the lone assassin and so they gave us two more before the decade was done, just to get us accustom to the idea of believing the lie...now we are trained...and a good number of people will believe any lie they are told by the authorities no matter how obvious it is.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)He ain't going to "change" shit.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Gore sucked also, that's why he lost to an idiot.
How bad to you have to suck to lose to a complete idiot.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Bush was never stupid, but it was created persona and on script to achieve what it did
see "Fraud" by Paul Waldman
read about the book on amazon
and remember it when Jeb is the republican nominee in 2016
http://www.amazon.com/Fraud-Strategy-Behind-Media-Didnt/dp/1402202520
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)they were in a boat.
Face it, DLC candidates are losers, and deserve to lose, because they are just another repug in D clothing.
If Jeb becomes president we can thank obama for it. He fucking up everything so he can remain friends with his repug buddies.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Why didn't gore suck less? Why did he pick the worst VP possible?
Why do DLC candidates suck so bad they lose?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)of course, everyone said Bob was old, ugly, boring, obsessive, compulsive and all that
What they never said it seemed was, what a good choice, the most popular person in Florida (save for Mickey Mouse,but Mickey was a mouse, not a person) and he would have won Florida by so many votes it couldn't have been stolen
I said the same thing in 2004 and well, Edwards was the massive fraud I predicted he would be.
And I was correct.
I voted for Jesse Jackson twice and Jerry Brown twice.
I would have voted for Bob Graham for Anything (hence the board name).
Now, why didn't Al Gore pick Paul Wellstone
reason #1 Wellstone backed Bradley, who would have been the best VP choice, but Bradley whined and skulked out of the arena and never returned
reason #2 Wellstone if not mistaken was not public at that time about his MS but most likely insiders knew it (one of the reasons he quit his attempt to run himself in 2000),
but had Wellstone supported Al from the start, instead of the hopeless unsmiling cold Bradley
(who should have been back in some position in NJ but he wouldn't bite so we are left with Lautenberg teetering and Christie as governor) who knows.
However, it was Nader that caused NH, no matter what anyone says
first with the votes
second with the mantra to stay home, both candidates are one and the same
NO they were not the same, it was a lie.
However, the worst VP in history was Spiro Agnew, however, it was Nixon's way of specifically ousting the dreams at that point of George Herbert Walker Bush which Nixon, to his credit, also stopped when he named Gerald Ford instead of 41 to the 2nd vp,
however, well, the rest is history.
(the worst VP nominee not winning was John Edwards).
(now Bush picking Dan Quayle was in fact a stroke of diabolical genius because unknown to most, Quayle was the clone of W, and having Quayle in enabled most of the country to give W a pass on Vietnam as Quayle did pretty much what W did).
That is why Hillary should pick either Joe Biden or Janet Napolitano and not run into the problem.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Wow. Maybe gore should have picked him instead loserman.
That, and not run a shitty DLC campaign and agenda.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)They only needed one senator to say no
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)It would have been meaningless anyhow.
The Supreme Court ruled. You can't do anything higher.
Would you have wanted, .... never mind.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)where? What are you about?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Winning is being seated.
Losing is not being seated
winners shine, losers whine
everything else is irrelevant if you don't get the keys to the car
one can yap all day about how W got into office, but he did, therefore he won.
losing is not getting the seat
and Nader caused it 100% direct effect=consequence
How many millions stayed home becaue they trusted Nader?
I have a placemat of the Presidents.
Nothing political, just their pictures.
Last I looked, W was there.
Preceded by Bill Clinton
Followed by President Obama to be followed by Hillary Clinton
angle? I think only 2 should run for President in the general.
Let everyone else run in the primary
270 cannot be split 3 ways and if it goes to the house in 2016, and the repubs have the legislatures, then the republican will be seated
i.e.-NO to third parties like Nader or David Duke or Ron Paul or John Anderson or
George Wallace (all of whom were financed and had ties to the major party anyhow
See Ross Perot-he had a personal grudge against 41, yet in 2000 and 2004 he backed W.
It wasn't the politics, it was a personal grudge, same with Nader.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)42 & 43 InstallationX2. Never legitimate in hearts and minds. A look back is a glance of the failure of the grand experiment that was this country. The rot pervades at most of the highest levels of institutions that protect the interests of Richie Rich in spite of ideas of democracy and justice.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)HHH would have been the nominee even if Bobby was alive. History shows it.
HHH was saddled with all baggage, nothing else.
LBJ had all the good stuff, and yeah, a little baggage.
But he would have won.
Oh well, whats a wasted 45 years?
So would you have wanted in retrospect LBJ over Nixon?
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)He knew for a fact that Nixon cut a deal to sabotage the peace talks and he said nothing.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)It doesn't happen and never will. Real political justice just like honesty never really happens that much
Honesty Lyrics
Album:
52nd Street
Lyrics:
If you search for tenderness
It isn't hard to find
You can have the love you need to live
But if you look for truthfulness
You might just as well be blind
It always seems to be so hard to give
Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard
And mostly what I need from you
I can always find someone
To say they sympathize
If I wear my heart out on my sleeve
But I don't want some pretty face
To tell me pretty lies
All I want is someone to believe
http://www.billyjoel.com/music/52nd-street/honesty
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Some people like that terrorist/anarchist V and wear that V for Vinegar Mask
Nothing to be admired.
LBJ loved America, and America loved LBJ
And once a President is in office, it is better not to belittle America for Vengence.
Always look forward and never look back.
Why are today's kiddes so full of anger that they want blood?
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)why would he cover for a traitor? It is not about vengeance. Escalating a war based on lies belittles America, sending our soldiers to die over this lie belittles it even further. LBJ could have saved many lives by exposing this traitor. He could have saved us from the disgrace Nixon brought on America.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Are you a Spiro T. Agnew fan?
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)LBJ knew this before the election and said nothing. He could have prevented Nixon from ever being President.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)the rest is 100% immaterial and he said he said
HHH still would not have won, and it would have made the US President look small and one thing that is 100% sure is, no US President should look small
The world is looking in, and losing is never an option for America itself.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)LBJ knew he screwed up with the Gulf of Tonkin lies and did the honorable thing and walked away. It is a shame that he didn't do the honorable thing and expose Nixon's treason.
You also seem to have a fetish for politicians that lie to us. Enjoy your little fantasy reality.
4 t 4
(2,407 posts)and he was a Idiot. He even knows he was, that is part of his supper low profile . He knows he was an Idiot and a war criminal. He might not be as awful as his advisor's, he knows that, and that is part of why he has stayed away. if for a second he had to tell the truth, i think would just kill him ( and Laura) they try and think of themselves as not aw full , maybe even good??
Skittles
(153,160 posts)the man is an idiot AND a sociopath who used his family name to get ahead
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)heads up their ass or who have an agenda to retard further progress left would deny that.
There is a significant swath of those on the left who actually hate change for the better. They are the cynics who deny any progress because it challenges their world view.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Here, I'll spot you one:
He allows L&Gs to serve in the military. Whopee! Need for fodder for the grinder.
A leftist would cease the killing and overthrowing of governments.
RC
(25,592 posts)discussing what needs to be done over what is being done by those in power?
Decades? It should only take a year or two for a turn around. There are no turn arounds in sight as long as we have a grid locked Congress and a President giving away the farm as a starting point for negotiations.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)You seem to think 50 years of back and forth can be switched in a few seconds of time?
It don't work like that and never did.
When you look at what is important, like freeing the slaves, and the Civil Rights/Voting rights acts, it took some 100 years between those two, and another 50 for a black president
and there is NOT equality yet for Gays and Women
Yet people want instant gratification that is NOT possible.
If FDR did so much good(which he did) why is it he was President #32?
And why did Jefferson write "All men are created equal" yet leave out 76% of the country from that statement? (now it would probably be 82%?)
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)We got insurance mandates, more torture, Gitmo stayed open, the Bush tax cuts were extended, the banksters were let off the hook, pot prosecutions were escalated, gay rights were declared "left to the states", major steps toward the elimination of public schools were taken, voting rights continue to be stripped with no action from the DoJ, the USPS is about to disappear, and the president now wants to cut SS benefits. Tell me again how the revolution was won.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)tomp
(9,512 posts)...by the political parties with the collusion of the media, and for the most part, the only thing people are aware of is their own condition. if they believe there is nothing that can be done about it, they will not try to do any thing about it.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Id say DUers are aware, some even at the Action stage.
Most Americans are only beginning to perceive there's something off, they just don't know what it is. Thus we have competing populist groups like the Tea party and OWS.
They have a vague awareness that something is wrong, but no knowledge about what, or how to fix it, and that's dangerous because it opens the door for usurpation-just like the Tea Party, or to a greater extreme, like post ww1 Germany. We're at a crossroads, people. The very long term future will be defined by what we do in the next 5-10 years.
Do we save America, or do we rebuild an alternative to the grotesque capitalism of the last century? South America seems the place to plan a future. Populist governments, vast resources, many have universal health care and free education.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)Sadly, I am not at all hopeful anymore.
I really did believe that President Obama was needed for the country to move forward after the disaster that was W. Sadly, either the damage is much worse on the inside than anyone REALLY knows on the outside or President Obama is even much less of a fighter than he appears to be through his constant capitulations to the desire of the ownership group of the nation.
The real problems - resource depletion, infinite growth models for a finite planet, climate change, out of control spending on the MILITARY (not just generic "spending"
- not one of these issues is being dealt with in any meaningful way. Like any other real problem, the thing is that we can try to ignore them, but if we do not CHOOSE to deal with them, they will FORCE us to deal with them eventually.
The future is always uncertain, but it sure is getting scary when we miss chance after chance after chance to get truly serious about solving our long term issues.
unrepentedhipster
(1 post)Agreed. We are being pushed to our Les Misérables point. The point where our collective anger and despair drive us toward revolt/rebellion.
Our political situation is at a point where alleviation cannot be accomplished by Constitutional means. This led us to a disastrous civil war in the early 19th century. We never seem to learn from history or past mistakes.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)[img]
[/img]
Glorfindel
(9,729 posts)n/t 
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)Puppets are going do what they are told. Peace or a new IPOD, tough choices.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Great Job Ralph!(who some say is the single most lazy person in the history of the world, compared to all the money he got for doing absolutely diddley squat and whine)
They should have a space in DC for a statue where they can remember just how much damage Ralph Nader caused America and the world in 2000.
Make it one very attractive to pidgeons, who work alot harder in their lives, than Ralph Nader ever did. He could have by running for the house or senate and getting reelected numerous times and working as one of the legislatures voting on laws.
Never before is the triple meaning "What did Ralph Nader do" been so obvious.
By his being lazy, he did nothing to advance anything he supposedly worked very little but spoke loud while doing nothing all his life.
from wiki-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader
However, Jonathan Chait of The American Prospect and The New Republic notes that Nader did indeed focus on swing states disproportionately during the waning days of the campaign, and by doing so jeopardized his own chances of achieving the 5% of the vote he was aiming for.Then there was the debate within the Nader campaign over where to travel in the waning days of the campaign. Some Nader advisers urged him to spend his time in uncontested states such as New York and California. These states – where liberals and leftists could entertain the thought of voting Nader without fear of aiding Bush – offered the richest harvest of potential votes. But, Martin writes, Nader – who emerges from this account as the house radical of his own campaign – insisted on spending the final days of the campaign on a whirlwind tour of battleground states such as Pennsylvania and Florida. In other words, he chose to go where the votes were scarcest, jeopardizing his own chances of winning 5 percent of the vote, which he needed to gain federal funds in 2004.[70]
When Nader, in a letter to environmentalists, attacked Gore for "his role as broker of environmental voters for corporate cash," and "the prototype for the bankable, Green corporate politician," and what he called a string of broken promises to the environmental movement, Sierra Club president Carl Pope sent an open letter to Nader, dated 27 October 2000, defending Al Gore's environmental record and calling Nader's strategy "irresponsible."[71] He wrote:
You have also broken your word to your followers who signed the petitions that got you on the ballot in many states. You pledged you would not campaign as a spoiler and would avoid the swing states. Your recent campaign rhetoric and campaign schedule make it clear that you have broken this pledge... Please accept that I, and the overwhelming majority of the environmental movement in this country, genuinely believe that your strategy is flawed, dangerous and reckless.[72]
snip-
...In the 2004 campaign, Democrats such as Howard Dean and Terry McAuliffe asked that Nader return money donated to his campaign by Republicans who were well-known Bush supporters, such as billionaire Richard Egan.[77][78] Nader's reaction to the request was to refuse to return any donations and he charged that the Democrats were attempting to smear him.[77] Nader's vice-presidential running mate, Peter Camejo, supported the return of the money if it could be proved that "the aim of the wealthy GOP donors was to peel votes from Kerry."[77] According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Nader defended his keeping of the donations by saying that wealthy contributors "are human beings too."[77]
end of highlighted paragraphs
===================================================================
remember, in the OP, all those things Ralph took away from us.
and weep for what he did.
Too bad more people did not listen to Carl Pope.
Especially in NH where Gore, who received 267 out of the 270 electoral votes needed,
did NOT get NH's 4 to put him over the top.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The POINT of this OP is that there is NOTHING that the Democrats could do that YOU wouldn't find some reason to excuse because:
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WORSE!!!
That is your rallying cry, your mating call and the last dying gasp you will utter when the crutches you lean upon are melted down to mint coins for your the 1%.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and that's attempting to make people see what foolish mistakes were made in
1952
1968
1972
1980
1984
1992
2000
2004
what do all of the above have in common?
Each and every one could have been won by the democratic candidate, had the entire history been different.
About 80 plus years of Democratic presidents
instead of going round the Bush time and again by candidates financed to run third party
to distract and divide.
Jerry Brown and Jesse Jackson could have been President/VP had enough people bothered to vote for them and put their bias away.
So instead of looking back in despair, one moves FORWARD and attempts to educate those that might not know the past, and are indeed doomed to repeat it by electing yet another Bush.
Tell me something, should Jeb win, what decade will things get better then?
How many more years.
Oh, yes, there will be unity if Jeb is president in everyone whining, and the professional whiners get paid nicely in those times, so in essence (like the republicans with sanity know if perchance Abortion was ruled illegal, it would stop the flow of money from those in that cause, making their rightwing causes go on).
So is the whine solely to increase the years one has the ability to whine and profit from the whine? (like all those writers that have been $$$ making since the Vietnam war.)
What is the point?
At least I am doing my best to prevent Jeb Bush. And to move forward.
instead of moving back and howling on the beach because those got what they wanted in their freedom which now they realize too late was not without major loss.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I don't have any dressing for the word salad either, so I'll pass.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Ever get a wedge of lettuce from the fridge, and beyong the first circle inside it is all rancid?
That is 3rd party America
Peel the first layer off, and it is truly aparent what 3rd parties are.
If you go out and protest, what is the goal the very next day after the protesters tear it down?
did the 1968 protesters in fact, want to elect Richard Nixon like they did?
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)I think part of the poster's point isn't that we lose to republicans with 3rd party spoilers, it's the dismay that EVEN with democratic presidents, we get a country run by corporations. Unless we change this dynamic, they effectively have us behaving as lap dogs defending the lesser of two evils rather than truly the best choice for us. Even if you think the health care bill is wonderful, you have to chaffe a bit when you realize insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies actually helped write the bill. I think these corporations are the enemy. GE helps form the energy policy. Thats a bit of a conflict of interest. Even the man many hoped would win against Bush, Gore...was also positioning himself to make millions based on his green policy ideas. The frustration comes when even your best effort to support your best people still doesn't help you like you think it should.
Yes. Obama was better than Romney or McCain. Gore would've been better than Bush. But neither of these two men are interested in running a revolution. They wanted to be President. A revolutionary would never be allowed to emerge through regular media. Do you know how many people really ran for president. Over 200. But only those approved by the regular media were allowed to play. They were gracious enough to let us pick from one of their selected chosen few. The others may have been worthless. But the public was never even permitted to hear their names. When a real revolution finally happens, they'll emerge through the online, uncensored media. The regular media is dying and they know it. That's why they've turned news in side shows with parrots giving us what they know we want to hear instead of the truth.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)btw, took years before the right people came along and helped to achieve its goals. Now we know what the score is and can be more effective in electing the right people speed things up. Starting with looking at who is funding candidates.
The current revolution is in its infancy, but it's world wide and has already accomplished more than expected.
Wall St doesn't like the 1st Amendment either btw. They are so scared of it. All the more reason to keep exercising it.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)in country after country
Who said i was anti-1st amendment? I am anti-Jefferson, as he was a vile person
But go ahead and vote Nader again and tear the revolution down and hand the reins to Jeb
there are only 2 choices
because everyone has an angle, and all the 3rd party votes go to one of the other two
What i also don't like are soundbyte words that are meaningless
corporation, wall street
The only ones who actually work on Wall Street are the Food vendors.
What do you have against those hard working folks?
and inside buildings off of Wall street are 100s of thousands of hard working average people who work for salaries
Just as forgotten as the union working cops and firemen that died on 9-11.
ALL were good union people
All directly caused by NH in 2000 not giving their 4 votes to Al Gore directly because of Ralph Nader
(but I know, another anti-person said Gore sucks, how mature).
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)address the errors and false assumptions, so I'll just say this, anyone obsessed with Nader who had nothing to do with the theft of the 2000 election and attempting to twist that around to protect the five criminals on the Supreme Court has more to worry about than political parties.
I'm not surprised you don't like Jefferson, one of the great thinkers and Liberals in American history. Like all human beings he had has flaws, but I don't think about personalities, I pay attention to accomplishments and ideas. And we have so few thinkers today in political life, just slaves to Predatory Capitalism and we've witnessed how that works.
Maybe we should have remained a colony after all. Seems to me a lot of people in this country like the idea of monarchy, they seem to need someone to look up to for some reason no matter how bad their ideas are. But then Kings always had their supporters also so it appears to be a need, a sort of dependency that is a human trait still with us.
Me, I like democracy and have no interest in personalities, only actions, and we sure haven't seen much action on behalf of the people over the past few decades.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)and he abused the female slaves (witness his child with someone who had NO power to say yes or no), does NOT scream out Liberal to me.
I am not giving the court a pass.
Had NH not had Nader, Gore had over 270 WITHOUT Florida or the court.
And Gore indeed would not have nominated those 5 or the 2 after those 5. That is 7 times Nader lied directly.
Follow the time line-
NH would have been called 8am Eastern for Gore if Nader wasn't in race both physically and his damn both are the same comments which kept people from voting.
An endorsement by Nader also would have reversed that outcome.
Florida happened later.
Which is why if someone doesn't want a bad court, don't elect Jeb Bush or another republican who will follow the 7 (5 who ruled 12/12/2000, and the two later Roberts/Alito).
Hillary or whomever will nominate someone better like Thurgood Marshall or Elena Kagen or Sonia Sotomayer(who many people truly love).
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Obama isn't chaning shit. He is a fraud.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)The #1 greenest nominee who didn't win ever, by a Nader who said he was green
Only thing green about Nader was the green dollar bills his bankaccount reaped.
80 years of forward movment were lost with people like Ralph Nader
2 cars leave NYC heading for Tampa
One, a big fancy red or green sport car goes 120 miles an hour
The other, a reliable Honda goes 60 MPH
At the NC exit 97b,the Honda stops in the gas station and goes to use the john
In the next urinal is the driver of the flashy red or green sport car
550 miles later, and both were in the same place
they get back into their car
the flashy green/red car goes 120 miles per hour and crashes and never gets anywhere
Whereas the Honda made their business meetings in Tampa, and took a leisurely drive back
while the flash green/red car driver cursed and spit about his misfortune instant gratificaiton attempting to do too much too soon while he recuperates in the hospital
The tortoise always beats the hare
10% of something gets you there alot quicker athan 100% of nothing
And the 3,275 and counting positive achievements that happened during President Obama's first term are always ignored by the whines
BTW, the same whiners don't want to give up their ability to have higher doctor bills by having guns and bullets and 48 ounce sodas and tubs of popcorn and triple whoppers
A lesser health care bill saves $100s of thousands over the life of a person
Rebels with whoppers spend all that money to protest about a couple of hundred dollars.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Still sorry I didn't vote for him.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Gore wouldn't have named them.
G_j
(40,367 posts)but I will point out that it really all started
when humans discovered fire. Get real!
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 7, 2013, 12:20 PM - Edit history (1)
I left out "what are you gonna do if we turn the village idiot loose on your 'you ain't gonna do shit' thread"?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Ralph should stop being Peter Pan and become an adult
Adults take responsiblity for their actions
Kids refuse to see what an adult clearly sees.
Everyone likes conspiracy theories in their six degress of putting President Obama and Bill and Hillary down.
Try this one out-I don't think it's all that farfetched-
The elite were behind Nader's run in funding him, and he was too naive to even know it.
Amazing for someone who claimed to be a champion of the underdog, when knowingly or unkonwingly, he threw a sucker punch at America and America fell to the ground.
or to quote a bubblegum song of the 1970s
"United we stand, divided we fall"
and the democratic party fell in 1952, 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 2000 and 2004
and then want to go chaising their dog chaising their tail and advocate either overtly, or indirectly without realizing it, to burn it down again.
Ralph Nader, we hardly knew ye (to paraphrase a quote in the Shoeless Joe Jackson days)
a nation turned it's lonely eyes to you, and you gave us a shiner.(to paraphrase Paul Simon who always has a quote for something.)
An ounce of Prevention is worth a pound of cure-Ben Franklin reminding people never again
should they fall for a charelton like George Wallace, David Duke, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Ralph Nader or John Anderson if they wish to keep their republican that those people and others took away from them.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Nader was a SUPERMAN !!!
This mild mannered, geeky, Consumer Activist single-handedly knocked the wheels off the entire Democratic Party!
There was NOTHING the Democratic Party with Millions of Dollars, millions of members, and thousands of consultants and strategists and could doooooo.
It was HORRIBLE! 
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)He thought he was Peter Frampton and would always have his golden mane.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The Democratic Party Platform, Campaign, and Message was so weak that a geeky wimp like Nader could step into the vacuum created by the Centrist, Anti-LABOR, Anti-Working Class, Anti-Environment Clinton Administration and walk away with the votes the Democratic Party threw away.
The Clinton Administration CREATED Nader.
Vacuums are filled, in Physics and Politics.
It is counter productive (not to mention dishonest) to blame Nader for the Failure in Leadership that happened in 2000.
While Blaming NADER feels good to smug losers who lack the courage to face their own shortcomings,
it does NOTHING to fix the problem.
There will ALWAYS be Naders and Stupid Voters to blame for our losses,
but if Leadership and the Democratic Party has the courage to assess their failures,
THEN the problem CAN be corrected.
So go ahead and keep blaming Nader and the other excuses you can dredge up for your failures,
and don't DARE asses your shortcomings.
You will always be able to cry in your beer
and blame someone else.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)Just like the Republicans. They sit there and blame someone else for their failed policies.
Nafta, Cafta, Wall St. deregulation, the Iraq War. Fail,fail and more fail.
Now they want even more of these stupid free trade agreements.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)all he needed to do was accept GOP checks, which he did.
And their support, which he did.
Sorry, I hatel thrid way myself, but facts are facts. I was the one in Tampa hearing talk hearing Bush supporters brag about how they used Nader to steal the vote, how they sent him money, how they pretended to be liberal to encourage the Green Vote.
That week in November was one of the ugliest in my life, salt rubbed into wounds, and when people downplay the role Nader willfully played. They did not smell the cigar smoke of people laughing in bars, or wade through the emails of people that taunted me because they bragged about how useful Nader was to them! I am tempted to spit in their face, because they, whether they know it or not, are joining in with that loud loud chorus of idiots that celberated in Tampa back in 2000, aka one of the low points in my life.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Nader didn't "steal" them.
If not Nader, it would have been someone else.
The only thing dumber than putting Social Security On-the-Table is blaming voters for a failure of Leadership.
It is the JOB of Leadership to motivate the troops.
If the troops are NOT motivated, it is not their fault.
Blaming the voters is easy, painless, and feels real good.
"Nope. We made no mistakes.
We were perfect.
It was the stupid voters fault!"
The biggest problem with blaming the voters is that is ensures future losses by ignoring the real problem.
In an interview with Jon Stewart,
Al Gore accepted the responsibility for the loss of the 2000 election.
He said he failed to convince those voters to vote for him,
and THERE it is.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)If democracy is going to work, the buck has to stop WITH THE VOTERS.
I do not need anyone to convince me that jumping off a bridge is a bad idea, and, if after all the pleading, begginbg and talking people do, I still jump, it is my fault. The voters did an act of suicide in 2000, and they ignore the fact that Nader took GOP cash to do it.
Do you think it is "easy, painless, and feels real good" to know that my nation was stupid enough to elect George Bush? Making the hard choice, to vote for someone that you may not like, but that is better for the country, is the hard choice, the ugly choice, the ones where you stand outside while the people you saved from the GOP meatgrinder spit at you. About the only silver lining to a GOP vicotyr in 2016 is the idea of seeing the Jane Hamshers and Nader realize justy how much crap was held back, though as an American, it would not be worth it to me.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)What specific plan can you offer to ensure that 2000 doesn't happen again?
We will ALWAYS have stupid voters.
THAT is a constant.
We can't "change" that.
The Anti-LABOR, Free Trading, Deregulating, "The ERA of Big Government is OVER", Anti-Environment, "Centrist", Triangulating Clinton Administration created a BIG Vacuum on The Left.
Vacuums are FILLED.
That is a Law of Physics and Politics.
In not Nader, it would have been someone else.
It is the JOB of LEADERSHIP to Motivate the Troops and allocate sufficient resources for all contingencies.
When the Battle is LOST, it is the fault of LEADERSHIP,
NOT the fault of the troops.
So, WHAT do you offer as a solution?
IF we address this as a Failure Of Leadership (which it IS) to successfully counter the problem posed by this Vacuum,
THEN we can solve the problem.
So far, ALL you have offered is Blaming the TROOPS even harder and more bitterly.
Good Luck with YOUR plan,
because it IS a plan for FAILURE.
...but you can always cry in your beer and blame the voters again AFTER the next battle is lost. The Bars across the nation are filled with whiners insisting that it was ALL Somebody Else's Fault,
so you won't lack for company.
The BAD News:
The Centrist New Dem Obama Administration has created a much bigger vacuum on The FDR/LBJ Left than the Clinton Administration.
Can we PLEASE learn from our mistakes and STOP blaming that which we can NOT "change"?
[font color=firebrick size=2][center]The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH & Powerful
at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.
---bvar22[/font][/center]
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)You said :
"We will always have stupid voters!"
A democracy needs less stupid ones, and only education fixes that.
You said :
"So, WHAT do you offer as a solution?
IF we address this as a Failure Of Leadership (which it IS) to successfully counter the problem posed by this Vacuum,
THEN we can solve the problem.
So far, ALL you have offered is Blaming the TROOPS even harder and more bitterly.
Good Luck with YOUR plan,
because it IS a plan for FAILURE. "
Well Leadership is not a quick fix. Clinton, for all his faults, was a great leader, just not what was needed. What is needed to for the people themselves to take leadership back, to realize that no one, not fdr, not jfk, not LBJ, no one, can do the job for them, but they the need to work throughout the system, starting with the same local elections that the GOP focused on, then work their way to the presidency, with pressue along the way to ensure that even if we hate the person in power, they know they have to do what we want. They want pacs, like form pacs of our own, funded by money we would spend at walmart. Until we learn to think and act AS A MASS, we are screwed. We do not need leaders, we need servants.
I am really trying to be respec tful here, because I do not want to fire on my own people, but do you think third party/protest votes do NOT make the powers that be happy? And frankly, the propblems of Obama were started by Cliton, and his problems are not that he did not act like Clinton, but he continued Bill and Hills policies.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I challenged you to provide a plan to deal with the Vacuum that has been created on The left
and all you have done is thrown up some irrelevant Red Herrings,
and blamed MORE of that which can not be changed.
Vacuums are filled.
Those who create political vacuums ARE responsible for them.
Marginalizing, Ignoring, Taunting, and Ridiculing an entire wing of a political party WILL create a vacuum.
It is NOT The Vacuums fault.
[font size=5]Obama's Army, Jan. 20th, 2009[/font]
[font size=5]YES. WE. CAN!!![/font]
Oh what COULD have been.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)where I said we need to form superpacs. Why focus on the actual party when the party liostens to the superpacs. The virtue of that is, superpacs can be formed with nickels and dimes, and then we can actually use that to put pressure. Notice that Stephen Colbert, who made a pac just as a JOKE, now has a liberal sister in poltical office right now? In a deep red state.
If that is not an example, what is?
But no, you choose to insult, and offer some vain hope that maybe if every leftists holds their breath, someone will listen to them, after we have repeat after repat of 2000, with people who sadly are a lot mor clevber and wicked than W. ever was.
So in short, my specific answer is, use the itnernet use the pacs, the very same holes that the right wing opened, and use that tpo deal with candidiates on the same ground as the corporations, whose dollars are, after all, nothing more than all our pennies.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Nader isn't a bad guy but he was played for a fool by the Establishment, as a means to getting Bush in office. And if it hadn't been for Nader, we wouldn't have lost New Hampshire....which might have prevented the Florida debacle.....
ramapo
(4,588 posts)What are you going to do if we make you train your own replacement, visiting here from India on a H1B visa, and after two years of this training, you don't have a job?
Legal immigration has cost countless Americans their jobs. Offshoring has been just as bad if not worse.
Data centers, application development teams, software quality assurance, and on and on the list goes. All jobs outsourced and offshored and no one does shit.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)
CrispyQ
(36,461 posts)
Nixon advocated for a guaranteed annual income. Amazing, huh? A republican.
Personally, I believe government should provide the following to all citizens:
3 hots & a cot
health care
education through college
child care/elder care
demwing
(16,916 posts)what then? A demand is only powerful if there is a risk involved in ignoring it.
We need to make a decision - put our lives on the line to save this country, or move away and rebuild elsewhere.
newfie11
(8,159 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)eomer
(3,845 posts)Where is everyone? I would march every week. There should be millions of Americans every week joining me.
Yesterday after the march we talked about this. I told my wife and the two people from our church (UU) who joined us that I may have to take to the streets by myself, just me and a sign. People will think I'm crazy but in fact it will be they who are.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)These things alone have never changed anything. I understand that this is one of the big lies we teach our kids, but there it is. Ghandi and King were not successful because their calm quiet resistance swayed society's elite. Rather, for the elite it was a choice between dealing with them, or dealing with the violent militants standing behind them.
When people have to get permission from the elite to protest against the elite, and the elite laughingly grant the boon, it's a safe bet the elite weren't inconvenienced by the protest.
The same applies with politics. President Obama said as much himself, we have to FORCE him to do what he promised. Left unsaid was the rest of the story, we either force him to do what he promised to us, or he will do what he and Romney both promised to Exxon and Goldman and UnitedHealth and Lockheed and Monsanto and Dow. Politicians work for the people who pay them. The elite pay them with cash and expect obedience, we pay them with votes and expect nothing. Ten million people marching in the streets don't have the influence of a single phone call from Goldman.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Doesnt mean I would discourage you.
We need a strategy and tactics.
I believe we have too many individual groups and we need to work together more. moveon.org has a lot of potential with millions of members and there are other great groups like DFA, PDA, PCCC, Demo Progressive Caucus, etc.
We need to stop electing blue dogs. Dont care what the rationalization is we need to concentrate our resources on progressives. Let the blue dogs die or actually go back to their own party.
We need to get the word out. I suggest a coordinated newsletter we pass out by hand. Under windshield wipers etc. There are millions that dont care yet.
eomer
(3,845 posts)Yesterday about 1,000 of us marched a couple of miles through downtown Miami. Marching with us the entire way were Archbishop Wenski and Mayor Tomas Regalado.
Florida immigrant Coalition organized the event and they do have a larger strategy with components other than marching in the streets. As "Coalition" in the name suggests, they do bring together a number of individual organizations to act in concert.
All that said, you, Demo_Chris, and the OP are probably right that these kinds of efforts, even the larger strategy and campaign, will likely just be ignored.
I am also working on putting on community screenings of social justice documentaries at our UU church. Marches, screenings, and other events may be ignored in the short run but we can hope that by raising awareness and educating we may create the critical mass that can't be ignored sometime in the future.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)And thanks for the extra detail. I withdraw the random comment. And I dont think the OP is addressing these actions. I read the OP as saying we must do more. Phone calls, emails, approved protests, will not be enough.
Even the larger strategy will not be enough if it doesnt include massive civil disobedience. That's where we must be. The gorilla in the room.
I do not condone revolution and violence. But we have to put pressure on the ruling Elite to give us liberty, justice, and a fair economy. The only way they will recognize pressure is massive civil disobedience.
eomer
(3,845 posts)Maybe I need to find a "better" crowd to hang with. At the march yesterday I bumped into one of the leaders of Occupy Miami (when it was active) that I am friendly with (our UU church bought them a tent). He got arrested some months ago for chaining himself to another Occupier and blocking the only bridge to a private island meeting for big investors in Boca Raton. It takes a bit of soul searching to bring oneself to action like that. I'm ashamed that I've never been arrested for social justice at the same time that I still feel hesitation about the consequences. I do appreciate your thoughts and the others in this thread as this is something I'm actively struggling with right now.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and we will recognize it, we will all step forward.
mrdmk
(2,943 posts)The pic below is not from Miami. It is at Mission Bay, San Diego, California. This demonstration is from Feb, 17 2013 sponsored by Sierra Club, 350.ORG and 10 other groups for sustainable energy. Palomar Unitarian Universalism Fellowship (PUUF) also joined the party. San Diego Mayor Bob Filner and Reverend Beth Johnson (The pastor of PUUF) where amongst a list of speakers.
It was a lovely day for a protest...
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)What are you gonna do if we take away your right to self defense? You ain't gonna do shit. Our armed guards will subdue you and drag your ass to the prison camp.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Your personal arsenal is peashooters against M1 Abrams tanks and missile launching drones. Precisely how long do you think you could "hold out?"
Action will be required, but armed violent insurrection is just another way of committing suicide and handing the jackbooted thug protectors of the 1% a reason to take you out, and take you out, they will.
Peaceful civil disobedience is our one weapon that stands any chance of success.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)I was going to shoot down an f16 with a pistol. What a mistake that would have been eh?
My my. What would I be doing without your oh so critical analysis? Thank you so much.
With all due respect to peaceful disobedience. Go for it.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... what was the implication of your reply? If there wasn't a hint at the gunhugger idiotic fantasy that "we're gonna take back 'our country' by force" intended, my apology. Tell me what you did mean then.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)But I will defend myself.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)You expect to be attacked? By whom? For what reason? Are you committing criminal acts that would bring the authorities to bust down your door?
What precisely is it you need to "defend" yourself from?
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)About what I expected. As it always is with a Delicate Flower, when asked perfectly logical questions.
Gun culture is a mental illness.
Have a nice day.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)They also work pretty well on the soft targets that must enforce rule on the ground. They work fine on soft targets that profit from the system as well.
Why would someone be shooting a handgun or a rifle at a tank or a fighter jet? They are not destructive devices, that was never the purpose.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Alrighty then. Good luck with that, let me know how that works out for you and your "troops."
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)I refuse to tell my opposition that all they have to do is take a step beyond my line and they may act with impunity because of my commitment to a myth that forms the basis of my ideals.
If Pharaoh's heart hardens then you can only suggest making more bricks. Pharaoh then knows that his heart may harden without even the risk of further consequence.
No, I can't subscribe to that. One extends the list the opposition's list of items to consider and devote resources to not shrink them before the jump.
Let me know what begging without a further threat gets ya, ever. Beggars only are given handouts if they have the space to be the preferable party to deal with over the what lurks in the shadow.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Did I say a single word about "begging?" Sometimes the level of "debate" around here is just plain lame. If you think you actually are some sort of real "military" challenge to the PTB, you are living in a fantasy world.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Like you said, they'll do nothing.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)“And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains.
Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
― Percy Bysshe Shelley, Ozymandias
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)waged a GENERAL STRIKE,
and closed EVERYTHING in the country that depends on common folks to keep it moving?
We are not all suckers. Some of us even know how to steal back, at least some of the resources that the rich reich took from us!
Autumn
(45,066 posts)Senate and Congress. Got an election coming up. Do we really want the same thing we already have? Cause I don't think this works any more.
K/R
steve2470
(37,457 posts)THEN something important will happen.
Before then, I think you're correct.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)and manipulate the numbers.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)They will just change the way they count things.
jsr
(7,712 posts)
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)The response to the Occupy movement indicates that they're shit-scared they might be wrong.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Their response to Occupy was to laugh at it, and with good reason.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)to stir things up isn't laughter. They were trying to provoke violence so they'd be justified in a brutal shut-down.
Marr
(20,317 posts)The freak-out that was apparent throughout the establishment, from the 'party leadership' types to the corporate media outlets, was much more frantic than I ever expected. It passed a certain point where they seemed to collectively say, 'shit... they aren't going away and they seem to understand what we're doing', and they all started going into overdrive with the demonization and attacks.
There's something there, and if we ever fix this place, I expect it's going to start with something like Occupy.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)They only ask themselves "what amount of money will I get out of 'doing it'?" and if the amount is bigger than the last, they'll just 'do it' without any deeper examination of what the consequences of 'doing it' will be.
Only the top 0.00001% don't care about any amount of money: They already stole so much they can't keep up counting it.
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)This inverted tyranny invented and maintained by the Fortune 500 companies functions extremely well because their ancestors have always anticipated the need to manipulate and control millions of people in a way that avoids bullets and batons. Although those options always remain on the table.
We are often suckers in this game because many of us can't help being immersed in it and it is powerfully pervasive, ingeniously manipulative and does manage to anticipate our potential to realize that we are subjugated and expendable.
That system works insidiously and any attempt to liberate ourselves might begin best by doing anything we can to gain insight into how we seem to be, (collectively) so damn gullible. Are we really? Is there a broad spectrum of reactions that, by design, only end-up supporting the expertly crafted system itself, be the response for, against, or indifferent?
We are immersed. Our ignorance can be imposed or willful. There are many harsh, and initially uncomfortable aspects of pulling back the facade to see more clearly. For whom is this worthwhile if they feel alienated and alone when others are blind-sided by the precision and methodology of the Fortune 500 empire and its many tentacles? Who might not feel rather paranoid, even in a group, bucking a powerful and deadly serious construct of manipulation and control?
The way this works, (and any system of control does it) is that we have the ability to form habits and then mistake them for conscious free will and autonomous behavior. The essential dilemma is that this may not be the case up until we see into the way we function and are aware of how habits, (via systemic contrivances of repetition, reward and punishment) can easily be mistaken for choice when they are actually the inculcated results of overt and covert manipulation by immersion.
Waking up is much more than knowledge about the behind-the-scenes realities of politics, commerce, religion and politics as means of mass influence and oligarchical control. Being awake starts primarily with direct and clear insight into one's own self-talk and does require a methodical confrontational introspection into how the system is implanted in the mind in the first place and how that influences our actions and reactions across-the-board.
The Fortune 500, their lackey's and cohorts, are all counting on you being the result of their lavishly financed and long-term investment into how we function and how to insert higher order abstractions into that process to hijack and direct behavior in profitable and constrictive ways with finesse. All the while, the method allows you to assume that you are functioning with free will, have a real choice and are fully responsible for all your results.
Extreme views always win and ideologies can easily be co-opted due to the above. Find out more about how you think and why habits are both good and bad. There is form of change that will have a direct and dramatic impact on the system, so look into that kind of change in yourself and your behavior and, add some courage when you start to see results.
When the sleeping giant awakens, you might be shocked at the momentum of inner freedom and the true power it wields as the cage of beliefs opens and the shell of concepts breaks open to reveal the essence of our nature itself.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)PB
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)
AndyA
(16,993 posts)This hits most people personally, and my friends who are in their late forties and early fifties are commenting on the potential SS cuts. I think most people understand that this will have an impact on their lives in the years to come, and they don't like it.
Most feel cuts should be made in other areas--defense, closing loopholes for millionaires and big corporations, putting an end to zero taxes paid by companies like GE, etc.
I think people are beginning to pay more attention, at least with SS, and they are calling their representatives and the White House about it.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)and pretending that Martin moved mountains without a real threat to order as the other option.
What the fuck do they care about marching motherfuckers if a greater threat is not at least implied?
Silly mythologies about power surrendering and giving need to die, that isn't how this world works and never has. Power is surrendered at fear of death, imprisonment, exile, and poverty and usually not even then. Typically it must be pried from dead hands.
We will either take what we demand or we will have nothing, those are the real rules and pretending some other bloodless and peaceful nonsense is about ten parts wishing, nine parts pretending, to one part reality.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)When the heads of a few banksters, Hate Radio hosts, or Breitbart clones arrive at the post office in boxes, they will have to take notice. Until then there will be no change of substance.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,601 posts)I left the US last summer and am now living as a patriot-in-exile. My labor shall not be taxed any more to pay for the war crimes, civil liberties violations, and theft committed by the plutocrats.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)
For whatever reason, they insist that others drink it.
broadcaster75201
(387 posts)Americans do NOTHING. In the 60s, we marched, in the 50s, we marched. (I was there for both). Huge change occurred. The only thing American's will take to the streets for now is a free television on Black Friday.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)It's ignorance vs. knowing subservience. There is plenty of the latter.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)That was the Occupy movement. Remember how badly they were beaten down? That's what really happened. They were about as peaceful as a protest could possibly be, too, and they were brutalized. Not only in the US, but in Britain where it was even more brutal.
People seem apathetic, but any means they have of stopping it has been blocked or outflanked and any means they have of protesting has been given the jackboot treatment.
No, this is what's really happening: the wealthy have made up their minds to do what they want despite anything we say. We don't matter to them at all, and it's likely that they've written us off as dead.
Yes, there are propaganda outlets, the Fox, Rightwing blowhards, and the MSN, and these do sap the strength of the protest, but the politicians are aware of the level of discontent. But the politicians are either the tools of the wealthy, and/or wealthy themselves.
My guess is this ultimately isn't going to work for them. It might end up in terrible violence, but right now they hold all the cards.
AndyTiedye
(23,500 posts)Occupy got beat down, and just when we thought Occupy was dead, we got Occupy SANDY!
I think that is the way forward. What the governments and the corporations won't or can't do for us,
we need to do for ourselves and each other.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts). . . but let's just say it's between strategies. Getting their faces maced, heads beaten and being sent to privatized jails, got old fast.
russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)... and the French people hit the bricks.
Us....? Baaaaaa.... Moooooo...
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)yet the rebels with straws here won't give up their 48 ounce sodas which cost more in health care dollars than 50 years of SS money
France also has NO BILLS for any health care. You go in, get healed, no bills, go back to work
pay higher taxes
Wellness.
Yet Americans make fun of the french. Why?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)
Because we're TAKING everything else,
and you ain't gonna do SHIT!
Hahahahahahahahaha!
DURec!
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Instead, many gladly become the shit carriers for the 1%. Diligently supporting, working & investing in the very corporations that are funding the dismantling of everything America once stood for and that we hope it can stand for again.
Sure, voting counts for something still. But it pales in comparison to the power wielded by big money. No vote is more powerful today than the one we make with our pocketbooks and no acquiescence to evil in return for sharing in the profits is a more self-fulfilling prophecy.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Song title: What are you gonna do you ain't gonna do shit
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
d_b
(7,463 posts)best thread here in years.
erronis
(15,241 posts)And what are we going to do if they filter these tubes?
As we all know every communcation on the phones and internets are being monitored within this country (USA). In many countries they are being actively filtered and blocked and the contents are being used to persecute the individuals.
Do any of us believe that these messages aren't being harvested? Do we think that the backbones of the Internet aren't subject to complete control by governments and mega-corporations (ATT, Verizon, Disney, etc.)?
Are we prepared to find alternate ways to communicate across the country, across the world, when the day comes that our web page requests are all "404"?
Who in our (US) government is watching out for the freedoms of the people? I don't think the FCC, DOJ, DOC, Executive/Legislative/Judicial branches really care about individual freedoms anymore. Our "representatives" are no longer representative of the people who supposedly elected them - they are representative of the monied interests that bought that seat.
Initech
(100,068 posts)Well not permanently but it will be a one - two kick to the groin to the profit hoarders. 
Festivito
(13,452 posts)Hope you don't mind.
pandadug
(4 posts)there's nothing the average person can do. I have a family to feed. I can't march or risk losing my job. I have to think about my wife and my child. And so I grit my teeth as they slowly SLOWLY take more away. I got a "sunriser" from Krystal today. The "cheese" on it is getting thinner and thinner; almost a sliver now. Everything in the supermarket comes in smaller and smaller packages, but the price never drops. This is what those corporation bastards are doing. Squeezing us a little more every day to get every cent out of us. Washing my hands in the bathroom in Walmart. (Yeah; I'm not a rich liberal who can "protest" Walmart and go to Wholefoods. I'm teetering on poverty). The water in the faucet shoots out in tiny spurts. Takes several of these to wash my hands because those rich greedy bastards want to save every goddamn penny they can. It's always getting worse. What do you do? You have to eat. You can't boycott because there's a hundred more slowly boiling frogs who will still gladly walk through their doors. And this is going on in EVERY corporation now. There's no trashcans outside many stores now. Know why? Because the greedy stores figure that you're still going to come in and buy regardless of the convienence that they may take away from you. And they're right. We keep bending over for them and taking it.
If I was still single, I would welcome if the stupid masses finally FINALLY said enough and did something that I will not put down in writing here. I think that when that time comes, it will come in a flash and I hope that every goddamn rich greedy corporation will get what they deserve.
RKP5637
(67,107 posts)
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)This is awesome. I hope a billion people see it.
Initech
(100,068 posts)There should be no delusions about what we are doing. Here's American Gladiators, watch this and get fat and stupid.
pa28
(6,145 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)
on point
(2,506 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)In some states anyway
MADem
(135,425 posts)Roll over?
Give up?
Die?
Close up shop, DU, let's all go play video games?
I don't find Gloom and Doom/Fuck It to be a terribly helpful strategy.
Of course, when I suggest that people take to the streets and the mall in DC in a single-issue (not a United for Piece of the Pie and Just-Is "managed" effort) complaint, I am told that's too "old school" and useless and won't work. I think it's better than doing nothing, but it takes an expenditure of energy. I'm not talking about pitching a tent and engaging in urban camping, I' talking about single issue "March on Washington" type actions that can happen on the mall or in front of your congressperson's district office.
It didn't hurt during the Vietnam War....of course, it didn't work right away--ya had to keep doing it, every weekend -- and the occasional weekdays on college campuses. It took years. I wasn't the "best" protester, not by a long shot, I was a rank amateur compared to most I knew, and I went to so many protests I lost count.
No one has the will or the patience or the energy to do this kind of thing these days. It's either too much exercise, too much of an expenditure of time, too much time away from the wi-fi, or something. People sit in front of screens, be they computer or TV, and put up with less. They entertain the pain away. They haven't reached the breaking point, perhaps...?
The person with the answer to this problem, who will find The Way to reach the "Mad as Hell, Not Gonna Take It Anymore" crowd and motivate them to action, will be the hero of the younger generation--and the older ones, too.
blindhog
(3 posts)A major problem in the U.S. is that if it doesn't directly effect you on a personal level, "You ain't gonna do shit." That means only after the deed has been done will you want to rise up. To Late.
Maybe a little reflection on that is in order. Get uncomfortable and do something.....anything
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
tblue
(16,350 posts) Just awful. HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)for anyone unless they have a years long history of supporting social programs and progressive reforms.
I can think of a whole lot of shit I ain't gonna do.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Good post.
Win-the-fight
(47 posts)Now if we could get the Kardashians or the Jersey shore people to stop being so narcissistic, and consider speaking out about something other than their shoes and hand bags...we might get somewhere...
KoKo
(84,711 posts)and folks working Two or Three Jobs when their Spouse gets laid off and you have kids...and a mortgage or rental or whatever...
WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO?
WHERE ARE THE JOBS? WHERE IS THE FUTURE that WAS THERE for AMERICANS?
Gone to OTHER COUNTIES....CHEAP LABOR...where THEY SUFFER...but We DO TOO...and the Future of our Country!
It's distressing to see this happen while we are TOLD ...WE ARE THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! We Bring Democracy EVERYWHERE...except we Neglect it AT HOME.
It's distressing.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)People are going to go on DU and complain. But that's pretty much it.
patrice
(47,992 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)
