Don't Let Them Pull Out Your Teeth

[laborinvain]

Last edited Sun Feb 3, 2013, 10:41 PM - Edit history (1)

This has been a huge story over at DK. I agree with the author, not to mention the 900 plus people who recommended it over there, that this can help a lot of people. It is must read information. At least for people with gum disease, myself included. Pass it around.

[link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/31/1181512/-Don-t-Let-Them-Pull-Out-Your-Teeth?showAll=yes|
Don't Let Them Pull Out Your Teeth] by James Hepburn

UPDATE: You have my full permission to reprint, distribute, or in any way copy and reuse this post in its entirety. In fact, I strongly encourage you to do so.

I've been putting off sharing this story for months now because I'm not wild about discussing a personal medical condition publicly. But the information I am about to tell you could have a monumental impact on millions of people's lives. If that sounds exaggerated to you, read further and you will see why.

And if you, or anyone you know, suffers from gum disease (according to the Center for Disease Control, half of all Americans do - some studies put that number up to 75%) then you need to send them this story. It will probably save them their teeth, a lot of money, and a huge amount of suffering.

A few years ago I was diagnosed with an advanced case of gum disease. I was showing pocket depths of 9s and 10s. Many of my teeth were actually loose. And it had become painful to eat certain foods.

My periodontist told me that in order to stop it from getting worse, I had to have as many as seven teeth pulled. Seven teeth! And, even with my insurance, it was going to cost many thousands of dollars.

The implications of this were devastating to me. Life-changing in some respects. As anyone with false teeth will tell you, it's not a happy situation. From limiting what foods you eat, to actually altering your social behavior - including the way you smile - losing your teeth is no small affair.

Curiously, during one of my many consultations, it was explained to me that gum disease is actually the result of a bacterial infection. So my first thought was, surely, there must be an antibiotic treatment. But my periodontist said no. Sometimes they use a topical antibiotic, like a gel, to help arrest the spread of infection, but there was no pill you could take like you would for, say, strep throat.

So, I sought a second opinion. Then another. All had the same bad news. 'There is no antibiotic treatment and we're going to have to rip out your teeth with pliar-like things and charge you big bucks to do it.' Or something to that effect.

I was incredulous. What century is this? How, in this day and age, could we be condemned to such barbary? Don't we have antibiotics for everything? Surely someone was at least working on it. So I decided to search scientific journals for "antibiotic treatment for gum disease."

Immediately, I found this: <strong>The nonsurgical treatment of patients with gum disease: results after five years.</strong> by Walter J. Loesche et al. (link)

I am not exaggerating when I say my heart jumped a beat. Could there be hope? I clicked on the link and saw this:

Abstract

BACKGROUND: In a previous study involving patients seen at the dental clinic of the Detroit Receiving Hospital, the authors found that 87 percent of teeth initially recommended for surgery or extraction were spared those treatments by a combination of debridement [cleaning] and short-term usage of antimicrobial agents. The objective of the present study was to determine how long the surgery-sparing benefits of less invasive treatment would persist.

METHODS: Ninety of these patients were scheduled for maintenance therapy at three-month intervals over a five-year period. They were evaluated periodically for surgical needs by a clinician who was not aware of the nonsurgical gum treatment the patient had received.

RESULTS: The initial treatment benefits were sustained, as the number of teeth needing periodontal surgery or extraction was 0.06 teeth per patient after 1.1 year, 0.22 after 2.3 years, 0.51 after 3.6 years and 0.86 after 5.1 years.

CONCLUSIONS: A noninvasive treatment regimen for an anaerobic infection in teeth seriously compromised by gum disease resulted in a reduced need for surgery or tooth extraction for at least five years after completion of the initial treatment. [Emphasis added]

Could this be true? And who is this Walter Loesche guy? And if it really works, how come three different periodontists didn't appear to have heard of him or his work? So I looked him up. According to his bio at the University of Michigan:

He received his B.A. from Yale University in 1957, his D.M.D. from Harvard School of Dental Medicine in 1961, a periodontal certificate from Harvard-Forsyth in 1964, and his Ph.D. from Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1967.

...

He has published three textbooks, over 170 peer-reviewed articles, and over 50 chapters and invited reviews. He has "served on the editorial boards of the Journal of Periodontal Research, Clinical Microbiology, the Journal of Oral Microbiology and Immunology, and Anaerobe and served as president of the.

I've since learned that

"he was appointed the Marcus L Ward Professor in Dentistry and received honorary degrees from the University of Goteborg, Sweden, the University of Ghent, Belgium and the University of Turku, Finland. In 1988 Dr. Loesche served as the president of the American Association of Dental Research and received the Distinguished Scientist Award in 1994."

The more I learned about Dr. Loesche, the more I realized that he wasn't some obscure researcher, but one of the most renowned scientists in his field. And the more I learned about his published work, the more bizarre it became that none of my periodontists were familiar with his antibiotic approach to treatment of gum disease.

As I said, one of my periodontists told me that gum disease was the result of a bacterial infection. But, it actually turns out, that my periodontist probably knew that because of the work of Walter Loesche. He was the one who, more than any other, led this field of research in identifying gum disease as a bacterial infection and pioneered its treatment as such.

Regardless, I can't express how much hope this gave me. Here was a scientist with bona fides out the yahoo who claimed that he had successfully treated gum disease with drugs. I emailed Dr. Loesche at once. I explained my situation, and asked if he could recommend a drug treatment. This is what he told me to do:

* Get your teeth cleaned (in my case this involved a full scaling which I had already had done).

* Then get your Dr. to prescribe Azithromycin 500mg.

* Take one a day for 3 days. Then stop for 4 days. Then resume for 3 more days.

So I called periodontist #3 and told her about the Loesche treatment, sent her supporting documents from the Journal of the American Dental Association, among others, and her response was very positive. "I'll try anything." she said. So she wrote the script and scheduled me to return in thirty days for a progress report.

"It's a miracle!" Those were her exact words. "I've never seen this before."

As I write this, two years have passed since contacting Walter Loesche and taking Azithromycin. On my last regular checkup my dentist informed me I have no signs of active gum disease. I still have all my teeth. My pocket depths went from 9s and 10s down to 3s and 4s (still not great, but not in crisis either). My teeth are no longer remotely loose or sore. And I can eat anything I want.

<strong>This is Where it Gets Political</strong>

I find it simply impossible to believe that the periodontal establishment is unaware of the breakthrough of antibiotic treatment following the work of Dr. Loesche and others. The groundbreaking study I linked to above, which proved the superior effectiveness of antibiotic treatment, was published in 2002. There were other such studies, published in top journals, showing similar results going back into the early 1990s.

And yet, yesterday, in preparing to write this post, I contacted eight periodontists' offices in my area. In each, I spoke to the senior hygienist on staff. And each denied ever hearing of systemic antibiotic treatment.

I personally was was quoted roughly $12,000 to get my teeth extracted. Edit: As a commenter pointed out, you can get teeth pulled for a lot cheaper. I called my periodonist's office and his assistant suggested that price probably included bone grafts to prepare for implants and may have included some bridge work.

My antibiotic treatment cost me $15.

Is this why none of the periodontists I saw knew about antibiotic treatment? The tooth extraction business is big bucks. So is the tooth replacement business. Depending on which study you cite, Americans alone spend tens of billions of dollars on periodontal treatment each year - most of that getting teeth extracted and replaced with dentures etc.

Walter Loesche, in one of his papers, spoke of not just an alternative treatment, but a new paradigm - one that replaces the barbaric method of removing patients' teeth with one that treats the underlying cause.

What Dr. Loesche didn't mention, however, was that this new paradigm threatens to practically collapse a multibillion dollar industry. If gum disease can be caught in the early stages, and treated with antibiotics prescribed by a normal dentist (which it can), then why do we even periodontists?

So while I'm not suggesting that there's some plot among the periodontal establishment to suppress the use of antibiotic treatment, there certainly appears to be little incentive for them to embrace it.

As such, perhaps it will take the power of the internet to inform patients that there's an antibiotic treatment to gum disease. And while there's no guarantee that everyone's treatment will be as successful as mine has been, everyone should at least have the opportunity to try it first. Pulling out someone's teeth should be an absolute last resort after all other treatments have been applied.

So, again, if you know someone with gum disease, and you almost certainly do, please send them this article, have them talk it over with their dentist, periodontist, or doctor, and help them save their teeth. The periodontal industry can find another way to make money.

<strong>More Information</strong>

For further information on the work of Walter Loesche and colleagues at his U. Michigan page, go here and click on the lefthand menu "Publications."

Here is a groundbreaking paper from 2001 that is not behind a paywall. According to Google Scholar it has been cited 192 times.

Similarly, a normal Google search for Walter Loesche will also immerse you in a sea of useful information.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

1. Saved for future reading.

[jerfro]

27. A direct parallel

It's all about the profit margin. The exact same story could be told about the AMA and Chinese herbs and acupuncture. The denial factor is huge. If any procedure, diagnosis or drug isn't supported and promoted by the BIG MEDICAL MACHINE and particularly if it doesn't make money for PHARMA you will be in the dark. It always pays to look to alternative medicine and procedures. I have had numerous experiences. It's just important to look at all the possibilities.

[laborinvain]

98. I agree with the original author

that there's no conspiracy going on here. Nor do I think that the periodontal profession has a lot of bad apples. I think it's a combination of things, including resistance to try new things, a lack of exposure to new treatments once in practice, and, perhaps, a lack of incentive.

[MattBaggins]

124. Not to mention the fact that the story is blown of of proportion

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2013, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

The story would have you believe that Periodontists are living in some dark ages and have never heard of antibiotics yet nothing could be further from the truth.

Using Azithromycin; why sounding like a one time miracle cure, is only wishful thinking. Topical and low dose antibiotics are more effective and doctors are fully aware of them.

These so called anecdotal miracles do not take into account the effects of already known anitbiotics on collagenase and cytokines; the need for bone grafting; whether the patient will be compliant, do they have diabetes or heart disease; do they smoke and will they stop?

Everyone wants a miracle pill and when one does not exist, it's a huge conspiracy for money.

[SoCalDem]

152. If you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail

and if you are greedy bastards who want money money money, why suggest a cheap/effective solution

[Little Star]

2. Bookmarked this so that I can pass this information around to others. Thanks!

[Liberal_in_LA]

76. +1 great info to give to others

[snappyturtle]

78. I'm tagging onto your reply because I HAVE to get folks to look at

the use of peroxide and baking soda.....not so dumb and reversed my gum disease! No kidding. Bacteria doesn't like oxygen....and peroxide(the cheap $1 bottle at Walmart) provides an environment that bacteria doesn't like. Google it...too much info to post...I have one eye on Superbowl. The peroxide is diluted with water....great results and white teeth to boot!

[flamingdem]

90. Can you detail how you use it when you have time?

Does it effect the enamel in any way?

I would guess it might whiten as well

[snappyturtle]

100. Yes. I put a tsp. or two of baking soda in a cup and enough

peroxide to make a little slurry and brush with it. This was first told to me by a dentist in the 80's and I did it....for while and the results were spectuacular....however, life got in the way and I drifted away from my good habit. Then, I got gum disease. I went back to the peroxide and baking soda and the dentist I saw, very expensive, wanted to know what I was doing while I was under his "care" and questioning himself on my great turn around!

I was first instructed to use this once daily for a week or so as I remember and then once or twice a week. When I got the gum disease I got religion and was doing it two or three times a day! Well, it worked...I still do this, altho I've slipped some. THe dentist who first told me about this said there would be no peridontal disease if people did this simple thing. My Grandmother brushed with baking soda(!)...no harm to the enamel. Please just Google "dental care with peroxide and baking soda" and you will find a lot to look at...one being: http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/dental-health.html

Hope this helps....thanks for being patient.

Here's another: better at explanation:http://askville.amazon.com/peroxide-hurt-gums/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=67213923

I always add a little water to the peroxide and baking soda mix....this is not new but it works or at least it did for me. I thought I was in BIG trouble but....not so! I reversed the problem. I still floss too!!! At first, the taste is a bit exotic but in time that passes. AND, I love the feel of my teeth....

[xtraxritical]

102. Hold hydrogen peroxide in your mouth (around teeth) for at least 3 minutes once a day.

Then brush your teeth thoroughly after you spit the peroxide and before you rinse your mouth. Also, make sure your'e getting all your vitamins, take a vitamin pill once a day.

[MattBaggins]

126. A few of the major bacteria in gum disease are anaerobes.

Oral mucosal effects of hydrogen peroxide mouth rinses were investigated in normal volunteers. Following a 2-week control period, 35 subjects were randomly assigned to rinse with either normal saline, 1/4-strength hydrogen peroxide (0.75%), or 1/2-strength hydrogen peroxide (1.5%), 4 times daily for 2 weeks. Mucosal status, buccal microbial adherence, salivary flow rate (SFR), and subjective reactions were assessed weekly. In the normal saline group, no significant changes were noted in any of the observed parameters and subjective reports were unremarkable. In both hydrogen peroxide groups, significant mucosal abnormalities were observed (p < 0.001) and subjective complaints were numerous. Bacterial adherence was significantly reduced in the 1/4 hydrogen peroxide group but not in the 1/2 hydrogen peroxide group. Despite reports of dry mouth, SFRs were not altered significantly. Since hydrogen peroxide rinses are associated with mucosal abnormalities and elicit overwhelmingly negative subjective reactions in normal individuals, they are not recommended for oral care.

[snappyturtle]

143. Yes, I also know hydrogen peroxide has become un-friended for first aid, etc.

However, I know that anaerobes survive with no oxygen and thrive. The oxygen in hydrogen peroxide is toxic to them. Thanks for posting this....However, I know it works. Maybe the addage of 'all things in moderation' would apply here. Four times daily (?) I wonder if 'taste' was what elicited "overwhelmingly negative subjective reactions". I also think that whenever the public finds a cheap alternative to healthcare, the healthcare industry has many reasons to nay say it....just sayin'. imho

Edit: Do you know who conducted the study? Do you have a link I could look at?

[MattBaggins]

144. Something happened to my link in that post.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8247815

probably fat finger disease.

[snappyturtle]

145. I've suffered from the same disease. Thanks for the link! nt

[snappyturtle]

146. On that same link page I found this

Safety issues relating to the use of hydrogen peroxide in dentistry.

Walsh LJ.


Source

Department of Dentistry, University of Queensland.


Abstract

Hydrogen peroxide is used widely in professionally and self-administered products. Hydrogen peroxide is a highly reactive substance which can damage oral soft tissues and hard tissues when present in high concentrations and with exposures of prolonged duration. This report provides an overview of health issues relating to the use of hydrogen peroxide, with an emphasis on safety with prolonged exposure to low concentrations of peroxide products. There is good evidence for the safety of hydrogen peroxide when used at low concentrations on a daily basis over extended periods of time, in self-administered oral health care products such as dentifrices and mouthrinses. These low concentrations neither damage oral hard or soft tissues, nor do they pose a significant risk of adverse long-term effects. Caution should be exercised with the increasingly higher concentration peroxide products used for 'walking' or 'power' bleaching due to the possibility of chemical irritation of oral soft tissues with injudicious use. The volumes of material and application times should be controlled carefully. Thorough education of patients is particularly important with self-applied gels because of the lack of professional supervision with such products. Such education is part of the duty of care of the dentist who supplies bleaching gels for at-home use.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Seems like the adage is true!

[MattBaggins]

150. I am not an expert on H2O2 for oral hygiene

but it is probably best used with advice and guidance from a dentist.

[snappyturtle]

151. Yes, I agree. That's where I first learned of it. nt

[vankuria]

148. Use it everyday!

I was given this info by my Dentists asst., because I was having problems with my gums. I mix peroxide with my mouthwash and rinse twice a day and haven't had any problems since!

Will try brushing with peroxide and baking soda, that sounds like it would be even better!

[snappyturtle]

149. I hope you have as much success as I have had. Glad to hear you

got the advice in a dental office as I did too.

[vduhr]

154. I always recommend everyone keep a bottle of HP in their medicine cabinet.

It's a good first-responder to infections (skin and mouth - not for the eyes), and a precaution to prevent infection on a cut. As with anything, moderation and caution applies.

[elleng]

3. Great info. Thanks.

MAY make appointment for scaling, which I've postponed for a long time. My doc did recommend it, as a first step.

[TransitJohn]

4. So big periodontics is worse than big pharma.

It's so hard to keep straight.

[bucolic_frolic]

131. Exactly.

I went to a perio last fall .. crook

he did mention bacteria, depends on what type, he said.

right now you don't need to do anything

Great, so at $150 for 20 minutes you're going to watch my bacteria

nice work if you can get it

If you don't ask every question you can think of, and the right ones,
you get nowhere.

What can you treat my bacteria with?

I think it's due to liability. If they just jump in, and you get a superinfection
from the antibiotics, they can be sued.

How did mankind make it to the 20th century without antibiotics and pharms?

[Bonhomme Richard]

5. A personal story. I had some gum disease for quite a while.

I also had some 9 and 10 pockets.
Long story short. I contacted C.Diff and was put on the antibiotic Flagyl. i went through the regimen and the C.Diff went away. At my next cleaning at the Dentist (my wife works as an assistant there) he was baffled because he said that my pockets shrunk and didn't have a clue why. I too was curious and the only thing that changed was that I was on the Flagyl. I googled it and teeth and came up with the info stated above so I passed it on to my dentist.
This was a couple of years ago.

[Rainforestgoddess]

83. I'mppretty sure

That flagyl is an anti fungal. Not discounting your story, but maybe you got the drugs mixed up?

[marybourg]

103. No. Flagyl is an antibiotic used for anaerobic bacteria

(the kind found in the mouth and balance of the digestive tract) and referenced in a post below as Metronidazole, which the poster said was prescribed SPECIFICALLY for gum disease.

[Bonhomme Richard]

121. No. It was Flagyl for the C.Diff. n/t

[Rainforestgoddess]

125. Yus, I was wrong -

I must have been thinking of a different drug.

[obxhead]

6. K,R, & B

Kick, rec, and bookmarked!

[randome]

7. I have a Sheldon Cooper-like adherence to taking care of my mouth.

Buy the flossing picks. They are easier to use. If you have a bridge, use a floss thread. Floss, brush, rinse, mouthwash.

It's not enough to do your teeth. You need to lightly brush your gums and even the tops and sides of your mouth.

It's not just about teeth, people! It's about staying healthy overall! The health of your mouth can affect the rest of you!

My brother had gum disease. I'm glad I 'caught on' to taking care of my mouth before it happened to me!

[a la izquierda]

20. I've developed this obsession too...

after a trip to the periodontist. I bought a WaterPik. Best $45 I ever spent.

[pscot]

36. A box of flat toothpicks also works

if used daily. the wood itself has antibacterial properties.

[Cynicus Emeritus]

56. Water Pik - Absolutely

Dentists and many hygienists in the past have typically poo pooed a Water Pik when I asked them. I had a bout some years ago of a gum problem even though I brushed and flossed regularly. After buying and using a water pik once a day and adding some diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide several times a week. Leave it for a minute or two and rinse. It has been years since I have been bothered with gum disease. My hygienist congratulates me every 6 mos that I keep excellent care of my teeth.

Water Pik + HO = cure. http://www.ehow.com/about_5557970_hydrogen-peroxide-periodontal-disease.html

[jazzimov]

62. YES! My periodontist warned me that

if used incorrectly, a Water Pik could actually erode the gums. But I am terrible at flossing. Not just at keeping up the practice, but at the actual act. I started using a Water Pik keeping in mind the warning and aiming it carefully. A HUGE difference!

[2on2u]

72. I found a new fangled water/air mist rechargeable at Amazon.... I think this is gonna make

me go for it. Also I break a Coenzyme Q10 gelcap in my mouth and let it sit around my gums... seems to help with the tightness of the teeth as well.

[sendero]

117. So do I...

... and my mom had me tested.

[OldDem2012]

8. I had no idea. Thanks for posting! nt.

[liberal_at_heart]

9. Definitely bookmarking this one. Thank you.

[ErikJ]

10. YOGURT with every meal to prevent it.

Yogurt may take the bite out of gum disease

(Reuters Health) - Regularly eating yogurt and other foods with lactic acid may be good for your mouth, Japanese researchers report.

Dr. Yoshihiro Shimazaki and colleagues found that consuming yogurt and lactic acid drinks was significantly associated with better periodontal health. "But, milk and cheese were not," Shimazaki said.

Periodontal disease is a chronic bacterial condition associated with receding gums and tooth loss in adults. Outside of regular brushing and flossing, effective measures to allay this disease are limited, Shimazaki, of Kyushu University in Fukuoka, Japan, and colleagues note in the Journal of Periodontology.

Previous research identified a lower occurrence of periodontal disease among people who eat high amounts of dairy products, but did not identify which dairy products were most beneficial, the researchers report.


They found that people with generalized (more advanced) periodontal disease had a lower intake of lactic acid foods than people with localized (less advanced) periodontal disease.


"The beneficial effect on periodontal disease might be based on the probiotic effect of lactobacilli found in lactic acid foods," Shimazaki told Reuters Health. Probiotics are living microorganisms, such as the Lactobacillus bacteria in yogurt that are beneficial to one's health.

T

Source: Journal of Periodontology, January 2008.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/21/us-yogurt-gum-disease-idUSKIM15691020080221

[randome]

17. Nothing beats cleaning your mouth after every meal.

Okay, I'll stop preaching now.

[ErikJ]

22. Brushing and flossing

every day are important too. I think once a day for both is good enough unless you are eating a lot of sticky bread and junk food every day.

[MADem]

42. Not necessarily....

If you've been drinking soda or eating acidic foods, you want to wash out your mouth with/drink some plain water and wait a bit before doing your dental routine. Those bubbly/acidic things soften your enamel, and immediate brushing while the enamel is softened can damage it.

I learned that from Steve Harvey, anyway..

[randome]

43. I do recall hearing that, too. You're right.

[siligut]

44. Good bacteria is very important for the whole GI tract

And that starts with the mouth and ends with the anus.

[Ron Obvious]

66. It's a good thing

It's a good thing I floss my anus every day then.

[siligut]

68. TMI Ron, TMI

[tblue37]

71. Isn't that what string bikinis are for? nt

[ErikJ]

82. The good lactobacillus crowds out the bad germs

like when the Dems control the house or Senate.

[dballance]

11. I Had a Similar Experience - Not W/ Gum Disease But W/ Regular Dentistry

I had moved to a new town and needed to get my annual checkup. So I asked friends about their dentists and got a recommendation. I went to that dentist. The hygienist did her thing then the doctor examined me. Post examination I found myself in a consultation room with the dentist describing the $5,000+ of work I needed done to my mouth. Some of my old fillings allegedly needed to be replaced. That might lead to a crown or two depending on the health and structure of the tooth and my one existing crown needed to be looked at closer. There was also the one wisdom tooth I still had at age 40 that was causing me no problems at all. Of course they'd be happy to set up a payment plan for anything my insurance didn't cover.

Something about that whole consultation just made me feel like I was in a used car showroom. So I thanked the dentist for the exam and consult and told him I'd get back to him on scheduling the work. I never went back to that dentist. It's 8 years later now and I still have that wisdom tooth and all my old fillings. No issues. No infections or abscesses I was warned about and that crown is holding out just as well as ever.

I don't remember exactly how much of the cost my insurance at the time would have covered but I do remember it wouldn't have paid for the bulk of it.

When I was growing up in the '60s and '70s we were taught that the doctor is always right and you would never have questioned them or their motives. Then getting second opinions started to become more common. Now, unfortunately I feel we have to question everything. As I said I just got the awful feeling of being in a used car showroom being sold something that wasn't all great. I can't say the doctor and his staff were trying to make a cash cow out of me but it sure felt that way.

[uponit7771]

111. +1

[1monster]

12. K, R, & B

[Ligyron]

13. Can't those gum bugs also lead to heart disease?

Or is it vise versa? I know there is a correlation.

Imagine something so inexpensive potentially resolving both problems. Hmmmm

[Cynicus Emeritus]

60. Chronic inflamation of any kind causes bad stuff

Chronic gum disease in inflammatory and causal. A C-reactive protein test (CRP) is recommended if you have heart disease risk factors
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/heart-disease/HB00016

[RKP5637]

14. Thank you!!! n/t

[jazzimov]

15. Really? Severa years ago my dentist referred me to

a periodontist. My pocket depths weren't quite as bad as yours, (6 and 7's) but still pretty bad. During my first visit he gave me a scaling and prescribed antibiotics - Metronidazole 500 MG.

So, some periodontists have been prescribing antibiotics for many years. I don't know why those you visited did not.

OH, and I found out I was brushing all wrong. Use a mouthrinse first (preferably a foaming mouthrinse with HO), to loosen particles. Then floss (although I started using a waterpik with good results). They told me that the actual brushing is only for polishing the teeth. It should be done last.

[randome]

25. And don't forget the backs of your 4 rearmost teeth.

That's something I once neglected. But never more!

[jazzimov]

55. Excellent advice! Actually, I did have to have 2 of those 4

pulled - not because of gum disease but because I neglected the backs of them to the point that they had decayed to almost nothingness.

My regular dentist insisted that I have the upper right replaced with a false tooth that was anchored to the next one, and left the other up to my periodontist.

My periodontist was of the opinion "if it doesn't bother you, don't bother it".

I am on a 6-month schedule varying between my dentist and my periodontist. My periodontist did prescribe some antibiotics again for me once because I had a new pocket of bacteria show up - he could tell because of the soreness I described in that one particular area.

So, that is another piece of advice for everyone - don't try to be "strong", be honest with your dentist. They can only see so much. A lot of their analysis depends on what you tell them. They can't feel what you feel.

[WillyT]

16. K & R !!! - Thank You For That !!!

[freshwest]

18. Thanks for posting.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

19. thanks for publicizing this info! one fix, please?

Very last sentence:

Similarly, a normal Google search for "" without the quotes will also immerse you in a sea of useful information. 


What's supposed to be in the quotes?




Anyway, thank you so much! Very interesting ( ) that Americans are at the top of the $$$$$$$$$$ spending ladder.

[laborinvain]

96. Sorry

There was some kind of glitch. I ended up having to remove the link and just leave the text. It says, "do a normal google search for "walter loesche".

[BlancheSplanchnik]

97. thanks! all better

[PCIntern]

21. As a 35year university-affiliated dentist, I can only say:

[HiPointDem]

26. i'd rather just hear your opinion about the antibiotic treatment.

[PCIntern]

32. You may not want to...

Suffice it to say that the Keyes (pronounced Kye-s) technic was an utter failure all those years ago, despite similar claims. Further, if you have a horizontal 10 mm defect which is not a pseudopocket in an average individual, the only way it will become a 3mm sulcus/pocket is loss of soft tissue. The bone in the average individual will not be sufficient for long term stability. But it is even more complex and all I can say is that if it worked, the vast number of us woul be practicing it. I don't have the time today to go into all this, but to generalize that this technic works and we aren't utilizing it universally for some ignorant or nefarious reason is utterly fallacious.

You know about things which are too good to be true, right?

[HiPointDem]

33. i'm very happy to hear your opinion, & think a simple statement of the facts as we understand

them is always more conducive to productive discussion than snark.

[PCIntern]

34. Uh huh...

This is how I reply to a "I have a cure for cancer that they won't tell you about" thread as well...

Bullcrap anecdotal testimonials are a dime a dozen...I have much better things to do, like watch stupid Super Bowl pure game shows and the same ads over and over again....

[laborinvain]

70. Yeah, but he didn't just cite his anectdotal testimony did he?

He also cited a widely referenced, peer reviewed, and repeatedly confirmed study by one of the most esteemed scientists in the field of periodontal research.

Abstract

BACKGROUND: In a previous study involving patients seen at the dental clinic of the Detroit Receiving Hospital, the authors found that 87 percent of teeth initially recommended for surgery or extraction were spared those treatments by a combination of debridement and short-term usage of antimicrobial agents. The objective of the present study was to determine how long the surgery-sparing benefits of less invasive treatment would persist.

METHODS: Ninety of these patients were scheduled for maintenance therapy at three-month intervals over a five-year period. They were evaluated periodically for surgical needs by a clinician who was not aware of the nonsurgical gum treatment the patient had received.

RESULTS: The initial treatment benefits were sustained, as the number of teeth needing periodontal surgery or extraction was 0.06 teeth per patient after 1.1 year, 0.22 after 2.3 years, 0.51 after 3.6 years and 0.86 after 5.1 years.

CONCLUSIONS: A noninvasive treatment regimen for an anaerobic infection in teeth seriously compromised by gum disease resulted in a reduced need for surgery or tooth extraction for at least five years after completion of the initial treatment.

Additionally, the author linked to many more studies showing similar results. If you're going to try and discredit someone, first, you should do it in a way that simply scrolling up and rereading the post won't destroy your whole argument, and second, you should pick on someone whose reputation amongst the scientific community isn't considered somewhat unimpeachable as it is with Dr. Walter Loesche.

As the original author accurately points out, Loesche was one of the pioneers in even understanding that periodontal disease is a bacterial infection. Studies showing superior treatment with antibiotics in conjunction with traditional non-surgical treatments like debridement are not new, or controversial.

But if you want to try to depict treating a bacterial infection with antibiotics as some sort of crackpot theory, by all means, amuse yourself. All I can say is I'm glad you're not my dentist.

[MattBaggins]

132. When people want to push a "Miracle CAM woowoo cure"

they will misuse the work of an actual expert. What is even better is to use one who is deceased and can't say "now hold on there just a minute that is not what I meant".

[Curmudgeoness]

64. But is it possible, after gum surgery,

to have this treatment help keep pockets from reappearing? I agree with you that the 10mm to 3mm pocket sounds too good to be true, but what about once the pockets have been removed?

The premise of this treatment makes some sense, since we have determined that bacteria is the culprit in gum disease...and it does seem strange that we are unable to deal with the bacteria. And wouldn't this be worth a try before the gum disease gets to the point of no return? It seems that there should be something that can be done, or tried.

[uponit7771]

113. Are you saying the person experience is less than factual? Do you have any evidence to negate what..

...this person said about

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. LOL I was thinking about you while I read all these responses.

And I can relate - we get far too many bad teacher stories posted here on DU.

[PCIntern]

51. Yeah...

We know about "all" those bad teachers and their thuggish unions, right? The ones that the NRA wants to arm to the 'teeth'...

[TorchTheWitch]

79. frankly I think the OP is BS spam n/t

[Deep13]

24. Sounds promising for gum disease, but I'm losing mine...

...to ordinary decay. If I had know 20 years ago what I know know, I would have spared the money and pain of restorations and just had them out. Root canals and crowns are still susceptible to decay and restored live teeth can go bad for no obvious reason. My implants have been completely reliable. They are crazy expensive, though, and take about a year from extraction to finished fake tooth.

[RebelOne]

28. I have been through hell with my teeth.

I had periodontal disease in my 40s. I had 3 gum operations. Then I had to have 3 bottom front teeth extracted because they were too loose to save. I than had a fixed permanent bridge. And after that, my top teeth gave me problems. I then had a procedure where the dentist filed down the top teeth and attached a permanent fixed bridge. These procedures all were in the late 1980s. Then when I moved to Georgia, I began visiting a periodontist who performed more gum operations. Well, my teeth finally started to just come apart in the past 5 years. My top bridge came out and then the bottom bridge came out along with 2 teeth. Right now, I am keeping the bridges in with false teeth adhesive. I am eventually going to have to have the remaining teeth extracted and get dentures. I can afford to do it, but I have been putting it off.

I am 74 years old now and these problems have plagued me for over 30 years. None of my dentists were quacks and did everything they could to save my teeth.

[geckosfeet]

29. Excellent post. Destined to become an all time greatest thread.

[plethoro]

30. You can also use this stuff. I have been using it for about 1.5 years,

and it works really well, even though I was mega skeptical at first. I don't know exactly how it works, just that it does.


http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Gum-Solution-Gingivitis-Periodontal/dp/B004GNOXSM

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. Now watch the cost of Azithromycin shoot up to $10,000 a treatment.

[adieu]

35. Most dental practices are for-profit businesses

Most aren't quite corporatized, yet. (There are no dental version of Lenscrafters, say.)

The dentists are there to make a buck by squeezing you with new and novel techniques, and claims that procedures X and Y must be done. It's like a Jiffy Lube or Oil Changers. You go in for a basic $30 oil change and they tick off a list of problems you have: air filter needs cleaning, transmission fluid, etc., etc. When you leave, you just paid $160 instead of the $30.

Dentists do the same thing, although they have you two ways: you can't check on what they said as easily as checking your car's fluid levels, and you can't go to another one that easily.

That's the end-game of for-profit medicine.

This nefarious game doesn't quite work with optometry because people can generally tell if the glasses they have on works or not. They just ding you on the fashionable frames, which I guess is all right as it doesn't hurt the person and they are generally quite fashionable.

[PCIntern]

40. Yes we are and

Most of us are pretty ethical...

I perform second opinion exams quite often and almost all problems are associated with a very few dentists here in Philly.

[adieu]

41. I don't doubt that most dental practices are quite ethical.

Most restaurants and auto shops and so on are quite ethical. And with companies like Yelp and Angies List holding them to their ethics. I'm just saying that once you go for-profit, that profit motive is what eventually gets them into the unethical realm. Maybe not now, maybe not next year or next decade, but eventually, it will happen.

[PCIntern]

46. No it doesn't...

Sorry, but I know many many dentists for many years and they are quite consistent ethically or unethically. If you tell lies, you have to remember them all consistently. That is not easy in my business.

[MattBaggins]

134. What do you do for a living?

Do you receive a pay check and does it make you unethical?

[adieu]

141. I work with start-ups

I see plenty of unethical behaviors on a daily basis. Not by me, since my role doesn't involve making BS claims.

[grantcart]

108. I would say 85% are ethical.

My father was a dentist and he worked at exposing some unethical dentists 50 years ago.

Among other things I sell dental insurance and we find out very quickly who are cheating on their co pays and who doesn't.

Not surprisingly the dentists who cheat on their copays are the ones that also have all of the quality complaints as well.

Generally the quality of professional quality has improved remarkably and most dentists are providing much higher quality than was true a few years ago.

Unfortunately some engage in deep price gauging.

I was interested in your response to this thread.

[msongs]

50. ally my dentists have been corporations - I'd bet most are for legal and tax reasons.

when they botch the job you have to sue the corporation not them. nothing special regarding dentists, that is the primary reason for most corporations...and tax avoidance of course

[adieu]

140. They're S corps, LLPs or LLCs

not C corps. I'm guessing you're not familiar with the different types of corporations or business entities. I would expect all dental practices to be one of the above.

I was referring to a C corp, which would be like what Lenscrafters or Pearle Vision are for optometry. You don't see "1-800-Dentists" or some such franchised/multi-nationalized corporation running multiple dental operations.

The main reason is that there's not economy of scale by having a large operation. In optometry, it's possible to buy millions of frames at a lower price. But you don't get the same thing for dental products. Services don't drop in cost when the number of customers increase. In fact, sometimes, the service goes up in cost when the number of customers increase, due to extra work in scheduling and so forth. (If I have ten customers, I can pretty much do booking and tracking in my head. When I get to 50 customers, I need to hire someone to do the booking and tracking, hence, my cost went up.)

[coalition_unwilling]

147. Out here in Southern California, there's a chain called 'Western Dental' that is

constantly advertising on TV its 'no-interest payment plans' and 'credit for all'. They have a bad reputation as providers, although I have no way of knowing whether that reputation is deserved. They give off the vibe of being a pretty big corporate chain, but you would probly know better than I their precise corporate status.

[adieu]

155. If they're a corporate chain

then they're probably a C Corp. They're run like Jiffy Lubes, probably. Get you in for a simple $29.95 teeth cleaning and then, "Whoa, you need to get that filling replaced and, oh, let's get an x-ray check on that teeth. See? They're a cavity starting to grow, so we need to fill that with..."

Next thing you know, you're walking out the door $200 short, if you're lucky.

[SidDithers]

37. Uh huh...

Sid

[obamanut2012]

38. +1

[NCTraveler]

156. +1

[Cleita]

39. My dentist told me this when I was eighteen. That was over fifty years ago.

The only thing he pulled were my wisdom teeth. Anything else he made sure to crown no matter how shattered the tooth. I still have all my teeth even though most of them have been given a crown of some sort over the years. I am under the care of a periodontist today for cleanings. He would never recommend having a tooth pulled either. I would find another one.

[pasto76]

45. 12 grand really?

i had 7 teeth pulled in my teens. My family had normal insurance. it cost like 200 bucks.

has anyone else had teeth pulled for 1500 each?

[PCIntern]

47. The OP is misleading in so many respects

That I cannot begin to tell you.

[obamanut2012]

53. +1

Even as a non DDS I know this.

[JimDandy]

54. Really? Well at least he took the time to tell us in detail about his experience.

Is your opinion not worth it or you'd rather just snark.

[PCIntern]

58. Oh yeah...

A poster with...ahem, a low number in front of his name, shows up and professes a miracle cure...

P.T. Barnum was right...

[laborinvain]

65. Just to be clear

This is not my story. As it says at the top, this was posted on Daily Kos by James Hepburn. Your failing to catch that may say something about your reading comprehension in general.

As did your failure to note that the original author cited a peer reviewed study, and linked to many more, by a highly esteemed scientist with "bona fides out the yahoo."

The gist of this story is that antibiotics are effective at treating a bacterial infection (Who knew!!!?) and that, as the author says, it may not work as well for everybody, people should at least have the opportunity to try it before having a bunch of their teeth pulled.

How anyone can have a problem with that is frankly incomprehensible to me. But, this is the internet where anyone can log on and spout a bunch of nonsense. So, have at it.

[SidDithers]

77. "where anyone can log on and spout a bunch of nonsense"...

Exactly.

Sid

[MattBaggins]

135. Ah yes.. yet another miracle cure that misuses the work of a dead man

to support a questionable treatment.

[bmbmd]

57. Thanks for a calm, reasoned series of responses.

When I saw the OP, I was waiting for your reply. You're a better man than I, Gunga Din.

[jazzimov]

59. Remember, he is relating HIS personal experiences

but I think the main points are pertinent to all of us:

1. When any doctor tells you something, do your OWN research. If nothing else, it will help you understand what they are saying.
2. No doctor is perfect. After all, they're only human. And they depend on what you tell them.
3. There are antibiotics that one can take in the case of extreme gum disease. But, they are not meant to replace good hygiene.

[PCIntern]

69. Of course you should research your condition

With the proviso that you understend that it is much more complex than it seems...

Do you personally believe that you should be on antibiotics for the rest of your life? Because that is what would be occurring assuming that the teeth don't fall out by themelves...which happens a lot.

[laborinvain]

67. The original author used brackets

and for some reason that truncated that paragraph about his quote. I've fixed above but here is the full paragraph:

I personally was was quoted roughly $12,000 to get my teeth extracted. Edit: As a commenter pointed out, you can get teeth pulled for a lot cheaper. I called my periodonist's office and his assistant suggested that price probably included bone grafts to prepare for implants and may have included some bridge work.

So someone at DK found $12,000 high too and Mr Hepburn clarified. He clarified in with an "Edit" in brackets that caused that whole section to disappear in my post above. I hope that clears this up.

As to the quote, with bone grafts and "some bridge work", that still seems a bit high to me, but certainly not above normal. I see no indication the original author is doing anything but sharing his experience. And I personallty am grateful he did as I have also been targeted for extraction.

[James48]

49. good link gum disease info

thanks.

I have already lost several teeth.

[joanbarnes]

52. Thank you for sharing. This reinforces my skepticism of the medical-industrial complex.

[MattBaggins]

133. Glad to hear a questionable piece supports your confirmation bias.

[Curmudgeoness]

61. I feel like I have spend $1 billion of that money they make

on saving my teeth, and I have also never heard of this. I can't even remember all the procedures I have had, and the loss of two teeth.

I am forwarding this, printing this, and discussing this with my dentist AND my periodontist.

Thanks for sharing this.



Oh, and welcome to DU!!!

[CrispyQ]

63. Bookmarking. -nt

[xmas74]

73. I had an appointment with a dentist

Who said I had gum disease. He refused to do a cleaning and referred me to a "good friend of his" - a periodontist. He recommended surgery and a few teeth pulled. He also said I would then need to go back to his friend for a few fillings. I didn't have the money and my insurance was running out so I didn't follow through.

Three years later I had dental insurance. I went to the general dentist I took my daughter to and told him what I was told. He did a panoramic xray ( didn't have it last time) and did a swab. His diagnosis? Mild gum disease. Treatment? A deep cleaning, an antibiotic and mouth rinse that I apply with a pocket applicator. The price? $5.00 for the antibiotic (at Walmart - didn't even need prescription insurance for that price), $8.00 for the rinse and $8.00 for the applicator. The rinse and applicator are good for six months. As to fillings- none. There were no cavities and I've yet to have even one in my life. The pain was from mild sensitivity which is very common.

I regularly tell people about how wonderful my dentist is and about how the last two tried to rip me off. Two coworkers now use him and love him.

[PNW_Dem]

74. Likewise, what happens to the multibillion dollar oncology industry

Likewise, what happens to the multibillion dollar oncology industry when there are cures for various types of cancers? Perhaps there are already cures that have been suppressed for this reason…

Excellent post. I was treated with antibiotics for gum disease with great results. As maintenance, my dentist provides TheraSol. I’ve been using it for several years now and pockets have slowly receded. Do your homework before getting any procedure!

[obamanut2012]

75. What cures for cancer have been suppressed?

And, by who? Links?

[MattBaggins]

136. LoL... The woo is piling up in here.

[NickB79]

80. Starting and stopping antibiotics like that is insanity

Last edited Sun Feb 3, 2013, 11:26 PM - Edit history (1)

It sounds like a great recipe to create a whole host of Azithromycin-resistant bacteria.

Good work

On edit: I should be clear that I'm not opposed to the idea of using antibiotics to treat gum disease, if there's peer-reviewed data to support it. What I'm opposed to is the start-and-stop regiment recommended in the OP.

[laborinvain]

84. Hmmm, who to believe...

On the one hand we have Dr Walter Loesche, who has published three textbooks, over 170 peer-reviewed articles, and over 50 chapters and invited reviews; and he has served on the editorial boards of the Journal of Periodontal Research, Clinical Microbiology, the Journal of Oral Microbiology and Immunology, and Anaerobe. He's been a member of prestigious committees nationally to include: the International Dental Health Foundation, the Board of Directors of the American Association for Dental Research, the National Institute of Dental Research special grants study section, the International Dental Health Foundation.

Throughout his career he received numerous awards and honors, including an honorary doctorate from the University of Goteborg, Sweden (1988), and an honorary doctorate from the University of Ghent, Belgium (1992). He was president of the American Association for Dental Research (1988).

He received the Distinguished Scientist Award from the International Association for Dental Research (1994) for his caries research. He was an integral part of organizing a program held at the International Fluoridation Symposium (1995) commemorating 50 years of water fluoridation in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and was recognized by the Michigan Dental Association for his efforts.

And then over here we have NickB79.

[NickB79]

86. And the CDC and Mayo Clinic agree with me, not Dr. Loesche

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics/FL00075

Not taking antibiotics exactly as prescribed also leads to problems. For example, if you take an antibiotic for only a few days — instead of the full course — the antibiotic may wipe out some, but not all, of the bacteria. The surviving bacteria become more resistant and can be spread to other people. When bacteria become resistant to first line treatments, the risk of complications and death is increased.

Also: http://www.cdc.gov/getsmart/antibiotic-use/fast-facts.html

Want to try again?

[laborinvain]

95. Sigh

You have it exactly backwards. Most research demonstrates that short course treatment with antibiotics, like the one prescribed above, actually reduces the threat of antibiotic resistance - though it varies depending on the specific antibiotic.

While some antibiotics must be taken for 10 days or more, others are FDA-approved for a shorter course of treatment. Some can be taken for as few as three days. "I would prefer the short course to the long course," says Levy. "Reservoirs of antibiotic resistance are not being stimulated as much. The shorter the course, theoretically, the less chance you'll have resistance emerging, and it gives susceptible strains a better chance to come back."

link

The excerpt you cited has absolutely nothing to do with short or long course. It has to do with people not completing the course, whatever its duration. The course Loesche prescribed is not unusual, nor is it controversial. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

Good day

[NickB79]

137. Are you familiar with your own post?

This is what I was referring to in the OP:

* Then get your Dr. to prescribe Azithromycin 500mg.

* Take one a day for 3 days. Then stop for 4 days. Then resume for 3 more days.

See that part, where it says to stop, and then RESUME, antibiotics use?

THAT is exactly what the Mayo Clinic, the CDC, and virtually all doctors today say NOT to do. In the 4 days between antibiotic administrations, the bacteria that show resistance and survived the first 3 days of antibiotics will have ample time to reproduce by the billions. Then, the second wave of antibiotics is much less effective, allowing even more resistant bacteria to survive and spread their resistance to other bacterial species over time.

THAT is how you create antibiotic resistance, and render entire classes of life-saving drugs obsolete.

BTW, my degree is in biochemistry. I've done research in a breast cancer lab, working with a team who developed multiple breast cancer cultures that were resistant to common chemotherapy drugs, like commonly happens in women battling tough cancer cases. They were later used to research what genetic changes and protein expressions code for this resistance, and how it could be overcome or circumvented. Stopping and restarting drug therapy was EXACTLY how we developed our resistant cultures in their petri dishes

[MattBaggins]

139. And he also taught microbiology. Stop misusing his name

I am sure he was deeply concerned with the potential for resistance. I doubt he would have supported your position.

Doctor Loesche is deceased and the OP is NOT HIS work. It is someone else using his name so please stop using his name.

[SidDithers]

88. Well said...

Sid

[Orrex]

81. Because nothing says legitimate medical advice like an 1800-word article on an internet forum

[Fridays Child]

85. k/r

[Flatulo]

87. My wife had the antibiotic regimen about 15 years ago. She was able to avoid any

subsequent surgery after an initial graft prior to that. She goes in for deep scaling quarterly. Her pockets are 3-4 mm, but holding steady, and her bone loss is negligible.

So they've been doing this for some time. As I recall, her periodontist was careful to manage her expectations, noting that the success rates were low. She was fortunate in that the combination of the treatment and the deep scaling have keep her teeth in good shape. She's 57 y/o and had her first and only graft in her thirties.

[L0oniX]

89. Azithromycin is used for fish...

Aquatic AZITHROMYCIN USP Antibiotic

Dosage & Administration
Use 500mg into aquarium for each 20 gallons of water. Repeat in 24 hours. It is suggested that a partial water change be made between treatments. While treatment duration depends on the type and severity of infection, it is recommended that extended baths in the medication continue for a minimum of 5 days and for not more than 10 days. Discontinued treatment if no improvement is noted within 5 days.

Ingredients
500 mg Azithromycin

NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION OR AQUATIC SPECIES MEANT FOR FOOD.
FOR AQUATIC USE ONLY, THEREFORE NO PRESCRIPTION NEEDED.

[csziggy]

99. It's also an antibiotic for human use

Azithromycin is used to treat certain bacterial infections, such as bronchitis; pneumonia; sexually transmitted diseases (STD); and infections of the ears, lungs, sinuses, skin, throat, and reproductive organs. Azithromycin is in a class of medications called macrolide antibiotics. It works by stopping the growth of bacteria. Antibiotics will not kill viruses that can cause colds, flu, or other infections.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a697037.html

Its' sold under the name brand zithromax - Z-Pak is another name brand.

ZITHROMAX (azithromycin) Tablets and Oral Suspension contain the active ingredient azithromycin, an azalide, a subclass of macrolide antibiotics, for oral administration. http://www.rxlist.com/zithromax-drug.htm

I have to keep track of what products contain azithromycin since I am allergic to it.

[ChazInAz]

91. I distrust periodontists.

I went through the same song and dance with one. He'd already stiffed me several thousand to have his hygienists scale my teeth. Not him..he wouldn't do any actual work. Same story "pockets...pull teeth...blahblah". Nowhere did he mention that my insurance wouldn't cover any of his work, including extractions and dentures.
I took the story to my regular dentist, and he recommended the treatment you've described. We gave it a try, and it worked. My teeth are sound, most of the pockets have closed or shrunk.
My dentist has never sent me to a periodontist, again.

[Brigid]

92. I've never been to a perdontist.

I use an Oral-B toothbrush, floss, Colgate toothpaste, and Cool Mint Listerine. I see my dentist annually for an exam and cleaning. That seems to be enough for me.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

93. My dentist always uses antibiotic liquids on extractions.

She also pulls root canal teeth, because ALL root canals have anaerobic (non-oxygen loving) bacteria in them. When they preserve the tooth and put gutta percha in it, it is NOT sterile. Then then anaerobic bacteria reproduce in a sealed environment and can make you sick. She pulled em and irrigated the holes with antibiotic liquid, and I took oral antibiotics too.

She also cleaned out the holes left (cavitations) after my wisdom teeth were pulled in 1972. I had ligaments left in there and anaerobic bacteria frolicking in the holes for nearly forty years. After I had my wisdom teeth cavitations cleaned out and sterilized I was thinking faster, just a few hours later while lying in bed.

Anaerobic bacteria are nasty--anthrax, tetanus, gas gangrene, botulism are some examples.

My dentist removed all my mercury fillings and replaced them with cerex. She is a no-mercury dentist. It's extremely toxic.

Look up "biological dentistry" and "Dr. Hal Huggins" for more information.

also http://iaomt.org

[PCIntern]

114. Wow. I'm impressed...

Botulism in the oral cavity and instant recovery in the same post. Sounds like a legitimate treatment modality to me...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

159. I did NOT say that I had botulism. I don't know the exact germ.

[nobodyspecial]

130. Wow that's amazing

load of woowoo BS

[Deep13]

138. Mercury fillings are not toxic to humans...

...mostly because they are an amalgam of mercury, tin, silver, and copper that stays solid.

These days they are considered inferior to composite fillings because of their color and because composites do not just rely on the shape of the cavity to hold them in place. Simply put, composite is sticky and amalgam is not.

Also, root canals are flushed with bleach before the filling. Nothing can live in that. The gutta percha cones are disinfected with chlorhexidine and sodium hypochlorite before they are melted in place with a heated probe. If any bacteria survive that, they are "entombed" in the root canal away from any growth media.

Biological dentistry is quackery like homeopathy and chiropractic therapy.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

157. You really believe mercury is non=toxic??

It is not stable in fillings.

Fillings offgassing toxic vapors:

University of Calgary--Hg is neurotoxic:

From Wikipedia:
The FDA also regulates dental amalgam under FFDCA. Dental mercury is classified as a Class I medical device, with extensive safety regulations on its use. Dental amalgam alloy is classified as a Class II device, subject to additional special controls.

So it's dangerous before it goes into your mouth, and must have special precautions taken when installed, and special precautions taken when it's removed from your mouth, but when it's in your mouth, it magically becomes safe??? You really believe this?????



Hg is in the same column in the periodic table as lead and cadmium. Those elements are extremely dangerous just as lead is. We don't use lead in paint or gasoline anymore.

[Deep13]

161. Molecular mercury is toxic if ingested...

...that's why we must be careful of how much fish we eat.

Mercury fillings use elemental mercury which does release an insignificant amount of gas. Millions of people have used amalgam fillings since 1826, including me, with no known cases of mercury poisoning or nerve damage. A few people have had allergic reactions to the metal, but no poisoning. They chemically become safe when stabilized with the other ingredients.

Being in the same periodic column does not make them the same. Is oxygen the same as sulfur?

I'm getting most of my information from FDA, btw, the people who have actual, clinical evidence to point to.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

163. So you haven't watched the video??

EPA says Hg is the most toxic NON-radioactive substance known.

So the EPA is saying, "Hey it's better for you than plutonium!!"

You don't read and watch the scientific evidence, I can tell.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

160. deep13, why don't you call my dentist and tell her she's full of shit??

Since you know everything, obviously.

[Deep13]

162. You can show her my post.

And your ad hominem attack is just silly. I don't have to know everything to know that evolution is real and that the Earth revolves around the sun. Knowing SOMETHING will make what ought to be obvious seem obvious.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

164. Are you scared of the evidence of toxicity???

Why don't you call her up?

[Bozita]

94. Bookmarking

[klook]

101. If the guy's a quack, as some on this thread have suggesgted, I'm curious

as to why the University of Michican School of Dentistry hasn't distanced itself from him or the lab that apparently still bears his name.

On the other hand, Loesche retired in 2000, so I'm also curious about more recent citations related to this research.

[laborinvain]

104. I haven't seen anyone suggest that

Maybe I missed it. But the fact is he is one of the most respected researchers in his field. As for his retirement, he continued to be listed as participant in published works up until recently - last year.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=L%C3%B6sche%20W[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=23294562

[klook]

110. Thanks.

See post #32, e.g.

[uponit7771]

112. Some upthread are suggestion that by their snark response, calling the persons experience anecdotal

[Cracklin Charlie]

105. Kick to read later, when brain is not full of chili and football.

[Mojorabbit]

106. marking to read later! nt

[zeos3]

107. Thanks for the info! n/t

[progree]

109. My periodontist has been inserting a "biopack" about once every 2 years in a particularly deep

pocket area. Its in an area around and under a molar that is very difficult to clean. So they put that tiny little biopack in ($40 for the procedure and the biopack), and the pocket shrinks from 7 to maybe 4 on the next visit. After about 2 years the pocket grows again and needs another biopack.

The biopack is called "Arestin", minocycline hydrochloride 1 mg microspheres. www.arestin.com

This has been going on for about the last 5 or 6 years. Its a LOT better than the way it used to be -- scaling and root planing followed by surgery about every 5 years -- 3 surgeries total. (The last surgery was in January 2000 so I'm doing a lot better -- 13 years and it is under control). I've also been doing better with my home cleaning).

Before the biopacks, he was controlling things with a deep cleaning of a few teeth at a reasonable cost like $200, every 2 or 3 years.

Anyway, just to let people know that antibiotics can help.

On edit - someone mentioned being prescribed and taking Metronidazole after a scaling and root planing. Yeah, that's what I had too after planing and after surgery, as far back as 20 years ago. I think its for a different kind of infection -- the kind after surgery to prevent infections while gums are healing -- than for something that controls the kind of bacteria responsible for periodontal disease.

[lovelyrita]

116. I have had Arestin used on a few deep pockets over the years with wonderful results.

It is painless, relatively inexpensive, and seems to work for me. Worth asking your dentist about if you have gum disease that does not seem to get better after root scaling and frequent cleanings.

[pecwae]

115. Will read links later

but I'm all for anything that saves teeth, anything. My bonding just cracked (filling only a gap) and the dentist I went to was pushing crowns on me. I freaked when I was shown that the tooth is ground down to pegs for crowns. Why would I willingly have healthy teeth destroyed for the sake of vanity and be in thrall to a dentist for the rest of my like?

[cyberspirit]

118. GSE

Look for products like "Healthy Gums" with Grapefruit Seed Extract (this is really amazing stuff) in it. It will kill the bacteria in your mouth so you can avoid getting to such a point as mentioned in article. But, if you do get to that point, this is very important information.

[Dustlawyer]

119. The whole medical, and I guess dental professions are rife with profiteers!

As I sit, like I do every morning, waiting for my meds to kick in, I can barely move. I pray I don't have to sneeze b/c the pain becomes so intense I almost pass out. I had a neural stimulator put in my spine to help block the pain signals from my feet and legs caused by small fiber sensory neuropathy. They wanted this thing in my back from the start. Before they knew what type of neuropathy I had. They were not even interested to find out. I told them I would not get it until I knew what type I had because some types are treatable. After I discovered that I had a type that was treatable, just the treatments were $15,000 per and you needed 4 in a row to get started and one every other month for life afterwards, I had them put in the implant. It did not help that much but 2 months ago I started using it most of the day anyway. Now I wake up with a knife in my back every morning and I get up earlier every day as the pain gets too bad too early. They will not admit it is the implant causing this but cannot find anything else. Our doctors are so used to us blindly following their instructions that they cannot handle being questioned. It is all a racket!

[bucolic_frolic]

120. There are also herbal oil rinses for the gums

spearmint, peppermint, neem, tea tree, eucalyptus, almond, clove to name a few

antibacterial, antifungal properties

[Nine]

122. I don't know anything about dentistry, but this sure has the feel of an advertorial. (nt)

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2013, 11:23 AM - Edit history (1)

(edited to put entire text in title line)

[BadgerKid]

123. TLDR: A 3-day course of antibiotics is generally too short.

It runs the risk of creating antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

[bucolic_frolic]

127. Azithromycin is powerful

and is generally given over short periods

Zithromax was originally a 5 day regimen as I recall

My mom always got diarrhea after 3 days

[October]

128. Thank you! I've saved this. And I have a short story that parallels yours a little...

Years ago I developed what many might call, "carpal tunnel syndrome" in my right hand. Everything pointed to it, and everyone was saying, "Oh, just get the surgery." Well I wasn't keen on having my wrists slit, so I went to the Internet. In those days, the Web was not yet as corrupted as it is now, and I came across an obscure study. I wish I had the links/names, but it was back in the early days of computers.

Anyway, in this graduate doctor student's study, he found that most patients with carpal tunnel were women. He ran blood tests and found that ALL were deficient in vitamin B's. Instead of surgery, he added supplements to their diets and mixed in some chiropractic visits. In time, I believe he treated all with only the vitamins.

Well, I figured I had nothing to lose, so I tried the vitamins (and a few chiropractic visits). It worked. No surgery. And that was 15 years ago. Unreal!

A few years later, my mother's husband went and had the surgery for his carpal tunnel, and his hand was never quite the same. He lost use of it in some ways, too. Yet, they were of a different generation that did not seek their own answers or alternative solutions to what the almighty doctor/surgeon suggested, and poo-poo'ed vitamins and chiropractic. In spite of the fact that I was living proof that the vitamin regimen worked, they thought I was the crazy one!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

129. Too late for me!

Such is life..............

[Waiting For Everyman]

142. Thank you! I had two questions, and this op addressed one of them.

I also wondered, why isn't there something that will dissolve plaque rather than scraping it off with a pick? I found that answer on Amazon, strangely enough... it's a product called Periogen, preferably used with a WaterPik flosser.

http://www.amazon.com/Periogen-Cleaning-Dissolving-Powdered-Concentrate/dp/B0048IGBD0/ref=pd_bxgy_hpc_text_z/180-1649069-8605226

http://www.periogen.com/

With your info and this Periogen product above that I had just found a few days ago, I now for the first time have hope for getting my dental problems solved without spending a fortune that I don't have.

Btw, the Dkos diary had some good responses in it too, including one with this very helpful link:

http://www.periodontaldiseasetreatmentguide.com/

[vduhr]

153. Thank you!

I lost all but 5 of my teeth 25 years ago due to gum disease, and have full dentures on top and partials on the bottom. Most of the time, since I no longer work (retired) and am home most of the time, I only wear the partials because the full dentures cause me headaches, so yes, dentures are not fun. Now, my 40 year old son is looking at the same situation. His dental coverage at his jobonly pays about $2,500 annually, and the dental work to fix everything is nearly $9,000, which would include extracting about 15 teeth! He had his teeth scaled and cleaned, which already took almost all of the annual limit, but once he got the estimated bill on the rest of the work, he had to cancel everything because there is no way he can afford it, even with putting an annual of $2,500 into a healthcare spending account. He had been so excited about finally being able to get his teeth fixed because he thought his dental coverage, along with his HCSA would cover everything, then very upset when he found out the cost would exceed that, so he had to cancel everything. I will be forwarding your information to him.

[7wo7rees]

158. Dandy timing!

Thanks for sharing. I think MORE of you because of it.

I am within weeks of an unscheduled double pull, one in the smile line.

I am within hours of getting some opinions from the *many* dentists nearby.

[truebluegreen]

165. Bookmarking.

[passiveporcupine]

166. This doesn't sound right to me

My periodontist told me that in order to stop it from getting worse, I had to have as many as seven teeth pulled. Seven teeth! And, even with my insurance, it was going to cost many thousands of dollars.

I don't have insurance and a few years ago had to have a broken molar pulled and it cost me about $100. Why would it cost thousands of dollars (and with insurance to boot)?

I'm not saying it's good to pull your teeth...heaven forbid, but this just makes me wonder about the accuracy of the whole article.

[barath]

167. azithromycin

Is Anyone tried Azithromycin after read this articles.. Just let me know Ladies and gentlemen.. Coming wednesday is my Lanap surgery and doctor told me 3 teeth has to extracted and may be more while surgery.. am 29 years old.. Please help me to save my teeth.