Stand your ground? Bull s*$@*!!!

[mfcorey1]

Man, 69, accused of killing man who went to wrong house


The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
A Gwinnett County man is accused of shooting and killing a man who friends said pulled into the wrong driveway.
Phillip Walker Sailors, 69, of Lilburn, was booked into the Gwinnett County jail Sunday afternoon and charged with murder for the death of Rodrigo Abad Diaz, according to jail records and his arrest warrant.
Diaz, 22, was shot in the head Saturday night as he tried to drive away from Sailors’ home on Hillcrest Road in Lilburn, the warrant states.
Friends of Diaz, of Duluth, told Channel 2 Action News that he and others were trying to find a friend’s house, but their GPS instead led them to the home on Hillcrest Road, off Indian Trail Road.
After seeing the car in his driveway, Sailors came out of his home, went back inside, then came out again with a gun and shot in the air, Yeson Jimenez, 15, told Channel 2. Jimenez said he and his brother were in the car with Diaz, along with a female passenger.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/man-69-accused-of-killing-man-who-went-to-wrong-ho/nT8xp/

[GreenStormCloud]

1. Has nothing to do with SYG.

SYG only applies if you are away from your residence, out in public where you have a right to be. This happened at the guy's home. Nor is it covered by Castle Doctrine either as there was no illegal entry. Legally, it appears to be murder, and the shooter has been arrested and booked.

Perhaps you should be familiar with the law before launching a tirade.

[mfcorey1]

2. His lawyer has announced he had that kind of grounds, Do your research. Yes bottom line

is he is a murderer. So, what is your beef?

[el_bryanto]

3. I think his lawyer is going to claim anything he or she can to protect the client

What's more telling is how the court interprets it.

Bryant

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

5. What's more telling

is how gun-toting lunatics are interpreting it. There's something in the news every week about how some hot-head got into an argument, starts shooting, then says the "Stand Your Ground" law is going to protect him.

If you're going to have conceal-carry, then then laws are nothing but a green light for idiots to open fire.

[GreenStormCloud]

14. His lawyer will claim anything. That's his job. N/T

[dairydog91]

35. His lawyer is not the final authority on what SYG encompasses. nt

[jpak]

6. SYG and Castle Laws = excuses for Gun Hero murder

Gun Nuts holler "Get a gun! The Po-lice can't protect you!!!11 Second Amendment solutions uber alles!!!!11"

These kinds of shootings are glorified by the RW media all the time.

and this is what happens.

yup

[baldguy]

16. Perhaps you should rethink your support of murder.

[GreenStormCloud]

18. Perhaps you should quite false accusations.

I clearly state that the shooter appears to have committed murder. I do not support him shooting someone whose only action was to pull into his driveway, then drive away.

It still has nothing to do with SYG or Castle Doctrine. Genuine self-defense, which that shooting was NOT, is not murder.

[baldguy]

19. Nothing false in my post. You support the insane SYG laws which lead to murders like in the OP

and you oppose rational gun control laws.

[GreenStormCloud]

20. I support legitimate self-defense.

Self-defense is not murder. The shooting in the OP was not self-defense and had nothing to do with SYG or Castle Doctrine, despite what his attorney says. It is the job of his attorney to try to cloud the issue.

[baldguy]

21. Are you getting dizzy spinning like that?

KKKarl Rove would be proud of you.

[rjj621]

44. Spinning?

Reading through this thread and his posts, which to me seem to be among the most rational, I don't see anything to imply spinning, flip flopping, or supporting murder which this case seems to clearly be based on what was presented in the article. Of course the lawyer will try using anything available as a defense and claiming SYG is no exception. Seems weak and reaching to me but in a country where a burglar can sue because he was injured while in commission of a crime and win, anything is possible.

[Eleanors38]

45. Bald knows this kind of smear is now legitimized on DU.

[SWTORFanatic]

34. Yet he'll get away with it, or get a relative slap on the wrist

[GreenStormCloud]

41. Doubtful. I think he will die in prison. N/T

[GETTINGTIRED]

4. if somebody is in the car driving away

your azz is not scared...
I hope the murderer gets life....
another Zimmerman and Dunne..

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

7. White shooter, Minority victim....

Stand Your Ground has become the excuse used by every deranged lunatic who's ever wanted to shoot a black or hispanic guy.

[GETTINGTIRED]

10. damn straight

it has....

[LisaLynne]

11. I fear you are correct.

There was a case like that where I live a few years ago. A man shot a kid (teen, but that's a kid to me) who was running away from his house. The teen was African-American. The guy did not go to jail. I KNOW he didn't have a trial. I don't even think he was arrested. I know that's anecdotal, but ... yeah.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

12. As part of a recent gun thread...

Someone tried to bombard me with links of people using guns in self-defense.

More than half of the links were criminals who were shot while attempting to flee. In one case, it was a guy attempting to steal a car out on the street; the homeowner came out and shot the guy as he was running away.

We need to make it clear that you're allowed to shoot only if your life is in danger, not because you're vaguely concerned that a negro has wandered into your all-white enclave.

[LisaLynne]

15. YES - exactly.

I have a friend who used to have a gun. He's a total liberal and what he said, and one of the reasons he finally got rid of his gun, was that he felt that he had to be in perfect control of himself all the time, because he had this direct power to kill. He could NOT over-react, because it could very well cost someone their life.

This case really illustrates that. I'm sure the guy that shot this poor guy was afraid, due to racism, I would guess, but he was DRIVING AWAY. What was he going to do to you at that point? Call the cops if you have to, watch out the window to make sure he doesn't come back or whatever, but you don't have a right to kill someone in this circumstance.

[raccoon]

52. You got that right. nt

[lynne]

8. Attorney will try anything, including SYG -

- but the guy was in his car trying to leave. I can't imagine that he'll be successful with a SYG defense.

There are just crazy people out there. Some years ago, then 4 yr. old daughter and I got lost looking for a friends house and backed into a driveway to turn around. Looked out my back mirror and a man had come out of the house where I'd turned around and was running to my car with a baseball bat over his head. Told my daughter to "hold on" and gunned it, thankfully getting out of there before he got to my car. I learned later he was the neighborhood drunk.

[backwoodsbob]

9. that isn't SYG

that's murder

[greytdemocrat]

13. Correct. n/t

[LisaLynne]

17. Yes. Lawyers are paid to come up with SOMETHING...

to try to defend their clients, but this isn't SYG.

[dairydog91]

33. Right. Hysteria to the contrary, SYG alone doesn't help this guy.

All that SYG eliminates is the duty to retreat. In a state with the duty, somebody who kills an assailant and fulfills the other conditions for a valid self-defense claim can still be convicted of murder if he failed to exercise his duty to retreat. SYG removes this duty, but someone who wants to use self-defense as a defense to a murder charge must still prove the other elements of a self-defense claim. I know of no state self-defense law that would normally encompass a situation in which a person shot somebody when the other person was retreating at high speed.

[libtodeath]

22. No matter what claim is made to try to get off the bottom line is that a person like this should not

have access to a gun,end of discussion.

[GreenStormCloud]

23. How can you tell in advance?

We don't have a Dept. of Future Crimes yet. Although our present system works reasonably well, no system is perfect. There will always be some problem people who slip though undectected.

[FSogol]

26. LOL: "Although our present system works reasonably well"

[GreenStormCloud]

27. Your post is not a rebuttal.

Yes, our present system does work reasonably well. It is rare for a legal gun owner to commit a criminal act with their gun, and even rarer still for them to shoot someone. But with a nation of 80+ million gun owners, there will be some.

Prediction: Instead of trying an actual rebuttal, you will resort to snark and a smilie.

[Robb]

29. "It is rare for a legal gun owner to commit a criminal act with their gun."

Hardly.

"At the time when they committed the gun crime leading to their incarceration, only 27 percent of these gun offenders were prohibited from possessing firearms."

http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-gun-policy-and-research/publications/WhitePaper102512_CGPR.pdf

[GreenStormCloud]

37. What percentage of legal gun owners does the remaining 73% make up?

The paper neglects to state that because you still come out with legal gun owners, as a group, being extremely safe. In their North Carolina study they neglect to state how many CCW holders there were that the convictions were drawn from. Here is the data for Texas. Notice that the Concealed Handgun License holders have a far lower conviction rate than the general public. You may review the complete data here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

Here are the Texas conviction rates. As you can see, CHLers are much safer than the general public.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Robb]

48. That they better avoid conviction does not make them "safer."

Merely better represented perhaps.

[FSogol]

30. Where does the 80 million gun owner # come from?

All of the NRA gun types have been throwing it around the last 2 weeks, but I never it before that.

PS. You are correct, my post wasn't a rebuttal. I was laughing at you.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. Link:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_owners_are_there_in_the_United_States_of_America

[FSogol]

36. So why is everyone using the 80 million number? Seems made-up.

[GreenStormCloud]

38. Multiple gun owners in one household.

So a best estimate of 52 million households yields about 80 million owners. There have been various polls. The 80M number is what most people seem to use. Even if every gun crime were done by a different person (no repeat offenders) that would still leave you with almost all legal gun owners doing nothing wrong with their guns.

[FSogol]

40. LOL: "that would still leave you with almost all legal gun owners doing nothing wrong w/ their gun"

Wouldn't that be true for every single law and regulation that was ever written?

Most beer drinkers don't drink and drive.
Most car owners don't get in accidents.
Most lawn darts didn't kill children.
Most roller coasters didn't fly off the rails.
Expand to infinity.

[GreenStormCloud]

42. That is why we don't outlaw beer, cars, roller coasters.

Lawn darts had a high enough accident rate that they were a problem. They were advertised for children but required adult supervision, there by creating a conflict.

Only a tiny fraction of a percent of law-abiding gun owners go bad. I have already posted real-world statistics.

[FSogol]

43. There are thousands of laws and regulations involving toys, alcohol, amusements, etc.

I agree that only a tiny percentage cause problems, but it is the same for everything else. Why the special treatment for guns?

Your statistic were ok, but the 80 million number is nothing more than a NPR guess/wish.

Also, you are wrong about lawn darts, they didn't have a high accident rate, but the accidents were almost exclusively on children, so they had to go. Similar to the recent gun discussions following Sandy Hook ES.
http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/1988/CPSC-TO-CONTINUE-ITS-FORMAL-RULEMAKING-PROCESS-ON-LAWN-DARTS/

[Kingofalldems]

24. Internet gun hicks will figure a way to make the shooter a hero.

[mokawanis]

25. How many more like him out there?

it's far too easy to buy a gun in most states. In Wisconsin there's a 48 hour wait while a background check is being done and then you're good to go. Good to go do whatever you're gonna do with that gun. Of course you can bypass the background check by buying a gun from a private citizen, in which case there's no background check and there doesn't even have to be a record of the sale.

There's a lot of "law-abiding" citizens out there, like Sailor, who should not be in possession of a gun.

[KT2000]

28. Many like him

hang around retirement areas and you will spot them. They are males who have lots of time to indulge in RW hate media. They are angry and resentful. They like to express their anger to others. They are suspicious of strangers. They are fixated on people "taking" what is theirs. They are likely on drugs - several prescribed drugs. They are looking for a "fight" with someone. They rehearse their heroic behavior they would exhibit in their "fight" over and over again.
Their reality is formed by fear - fed by media.
Their life-force is the adrenalin of hate.
They love their guns.

This man's face is their poster boy.

[Eleanors38]

46. Hmm. Yet another hateful stereotype of old people.

[KT2000]

47. No - I live amongst them

I can't tell you how many times I have come across these fellows - waiting in lines at stores, approaching their houses, being "in their way," listening to the irrational anger at homeowners and community meetings etc.

I am 61 myself and there are certainly many others who do not behave this way but I have learned to spot those who are amped on anger.
I should have added that there are churches here that feed that hate as well.

It is time to recognize that there is a problem. Doctors need to keep up with behavior changes when they prescribe certain medications for one.

[Eleanors38]

53. I'm even older and I see little more strange behavior

among the elderly than when compared with (presumably) the young. I DO see a lot of fun piked at older folks. And no one's hiring.

[Ghost in the Machine]

31. This is MURDER, plain & simple! No SYG, no Castle Doctrine, just pure, unadulterated murder...

He should also be charged with attempted murder of each occupant in the car, since he shot at a fleeing vehicle and had no idea WHO he would hit, or even if he would hit anyone at all.

Ghost

[csziggy]

39. Thank you!

This old man was so paranoid, he couldn't even say a single WORD to the occupants of a vehicle who were no threat to him. He shot into the air? How stupid is that? I wonder where that bullet ended up? Then when the driver attempted to BACK AWAY to get out of the nut's driveway, he shot him in the head.

Sailors needs to go to prison for the rest of his life.

[Rex]

49. There is no cure for stupid.

SYG won't work.

[RedCappedBandit]

50. Regardless of whether or not SYG 'works' as this murderer's defense...

the laws clearly are giving people the impression that it's okay to shoot people for practically no reason. How many instances like this do we need to have?

[patrice]

51. FACT: There are people who WANT TO SHOOT someone ANYONE, whatever opportunity

presents itself.