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Fuck Lance Armstrong.. (Original Post) Stuart G Jan 2013 OP
I'm a firm believer that the cover-up was worse than the crime in this case. sadbear Jan 2013 #1
I was never a world class athlete. Helen Reddy Jan 2013 #5
*apologies Helen Reddy Jan 2013 #7
Cheating is cheating,... Skidmore Jan 2013 #35
He should be in jail for the fraud he perpetrated with his business partners. reformist2 Jan 2013 #2
I can understand some folks feeling that way... OneMoreDemocrat Jan 2013 #3
I agree, he cheated, but there's not one clean person in cycling... joeybee12 Jan 2013 #18
And probably caused his own testicular cancer in the first place with steroids and testosterone Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #53
i associate armstrong with the lying and slanderous remarks about his fellow teammates.. frylock Jan 2013 #20
Livestrong hasn't funded any cancer research since 2005. DanTex Jan 2013 #30
You're entitled to admire him, I suppose. LiberalAndProud Jan 2013 #60
Do some homework. GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #61
Also, the confusion is intentional: jsr Jan 2013 #67
He may have done good, but the people he sullied calling them liars rustydog Jan 2013 #94
Wonder if he cheated using his bicycle equipment too CE5 Jan 2013 #4
How does the bike fake a doping test? Brother Buzz Jan 2013 #15
I'm saying that he might have rigged his bike with some sort of cheating device. CE5 Jan 2013 #29
Tons of rules, and inspectors poke at everything Brother Buzz Jan 2013 #41
I don't condone what Lance did, however, I believe they are all doping. Even with doping he still Pisces Jan 2013 #6
they all doped, but not all of them lied and defamed their fellow teammates like lance did frylock Jan 2013 #21
Sir Bradley Wiggins (the 2012 Tour de France winner) HATES doping FunkyLeprechaun Jan 2013 #37
Why is it that so many people believe in this "win at all costs" mentality? AZ Progressive Jan 2013 #8
$100 million jsr Jan 2013 #11
obesity Whisp Jan 2013 #17
Yeah he could have just won three or four Tour de France CE5 Jan 2013 #31
he was doping for all of them. They all were. Doesnt excuse any of it. Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #40
He never would have admitted it if not caught. Avalux Jan 2013 #9
this, right here.. frylock Jan 2013 #23
As someone not a big sports fan, can you post a link to closeupready Jan 2013 #47
here you go.. frylock Jan 2013 #51
Great, thanks. closeupready Jan 2013 #54
You're missing The Greatest Story of Redemption Ever Told jsr Jan 2013 #10
Why was the US Postal Service sponsoring a bicycle racing team in Europe in the first place? FarCenter Jan 2013 #12
Your question is confusing. a la izquierda Jan 2013 #19
The USPS is in bad financial shape. How would supporting a cycling team be good for their marketing? FarCenter Jan 2013 #25
US Postal hasn't supported a team in years. a la izquierda Jan 2013 #55
What politician connects Thomas Weisel and the US Postal Service FarCenter Jan 2013 #56
Why would the USPS be sponsoring anything? smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #75
Maybe Weisel was in cahoots with some congressperson on the Postal Service committee FarCenter Jan 2013 #80
Because the Tour de France is the pinnacle of world cycling? And because of Lance Armstrong. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #87
That is going to make people buy more US postage? mail more stuff? FarCenter Jan 2013 #93
The USPS is a brand just like FedEx and UPS wtmusic Jan 2013 #109
i don't want to fuck Lance Armstrong. I'm just not that into him. Who else do you have? n/t el_bryanto Jan 2013 #13
BWAAAAHHAAAAAAHAHAHA!!! tblue Jan 2013 #28
The only way I would have any respect for him, would be if he had confessed *before* being busted. Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #14
He followed the laws of greed Whisp Jan 2013 #16
The odd part is, he's actually a phenomenal athlete. I had reservations about his wins, but believed Gregorian Jan 2013 #22
Remember, everyone he "beat" was also doped up. Atman Jan 2013 #24
Triplets of Belleville - you are right - great movie! n/t Whisp Jan 2013 #27
Yeah. I just don't have the energy to be outraged tblue Jan 2013 #32
One of my favorite animated films. closeupready Jan 2013 #49
Sports heroes Lex Jan 2013 #26
totally agree rurallib Jan 2013 #33
I'll tell Muhammad Ali the next time I see him. I would also tell Arthur Ashe, Jesse Owens, ... 11 Bravo Jan 2013 #69
Yeah, I'm sure you and Muhmmad Ali hang Lex Jan 2013 #73
He is a stud muffin. I love lance. stumpremover462 Jan 2013 #34
Stud muffin? undeterred Jan 2013 #83
most of you never followed cycling wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #36
Pantani. There's a place in my heart for him. Gregorian Jan 2013 #45
I still ride steel wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #62
We now know that Armstrong blood doped before this Ventoux climb taught_me_patience Jan 2013 #72
and Pantini didn't? wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #74
How could I ever forget that epic climb. I have a Colnago knockoff from 1967. Gregorian Jan 2013 #86
He was not the best. DanTex Jan 2013 #89
"They say" is just that "they say" wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #95
And "I think" is just "I think". DanTex Jan 2013 #97
and your proof is ? wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #102
Neither of us have any proof. DanTex Jan 2013 #108
No, not all cyclists doped. wtmusic Jan 2013 #103
Pantani and Urich both tested positive wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #111
Both were made irrelevant by EPO. wtmusic Jan 2013 #112
top athlete's are assholes - Jordan, Brady, Nicklaus,Russell, Bonds wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #113
Hampsten quit in '95, Mercier in '97 wtmusic Jan 2013 #115
high and mighty wilt the stilt Jan 2013 #116
They should throw him in solitary and make him eat nothing but Nutraloaf... backscatter712 Jan 2013 #38
I believed in him even when they were stripping his titles. Xithras Jan 2013 #39
Why on Earth would you have believed that? Codeine Jan 2013 #76
Stupidity mostly. Xithras Jan 2013 #99
The concept of the "sports hero" is relic of primative human society. Dawson Leery Jan 2013 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Jan 2013 #43
I think he wants to face the music Taverner Jan 2013 #44
...and he's gonna rat on people...fuck him spanone Jan 2013 #46
Who do I look like? Cheryl Crow?nt Drahthaardogs Jan 2013 #48
Not only is he a disgusting pig and a phoney, he's a Bush lover. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2013 #50
Always wondered about that joesdaughter Jan 2013 #58
I'm not sure, but he did a "Newt Gingrich" and left her while she was still in recovery. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2013 #59
I did not know that- thanks for the info. n/t joesdaughter Jan 2013 #71
George Carlin - "Fuck Lance Armstrong!" SoCalMusicLover Jan 2013 #52
Carlin was light years ahead of most people malaise Jan 2013 #57
George knew. Whisp Jan 2013 #81
He raised $500 million for cancer research. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #63
That's a myth jsr Jan 2013 #65
Yikes. WilliamPitt Jan 2013 #68
He still owns all of his accomplishments. RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #64
I love the 'It is OK because everyone was doing it' crap! n-t Logical Jan 2013 #77
It's not relevant; his success was due to his work and talent. RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #78
And your though logic is why so much is fucked up in this country. They cheated so lets cheat! Logical Jan 2013 #82
Don't make assumptions. RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #84
He could hire the best people to help him cheat...that should count for something! wtmusic Jan 2013 #104
The betrayal Control-Z Jan 2013 #66
And likely to get sued Londoncalling Jan 2013 #70
Yup amuse bouche Jan 2013 #79
I read in The Sunday Times Londoncalling Jan 2013 #98
I would sue his arrogant amuse bouche Jan 2013 #100
Would that be "Fuck Lance Armstrong" because... TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #85
I never believed he wasn't a snake. ellisonz Jan 2013 #88
I can't help feeling bad for all the honest racers deprived of their shot at #1 due to this ass clow zonkers Jan 2013 #90
Lesson to be learned, perhaps? Don't look for heroes. BE a hero. randome Jan 2013 #91
He can still ride his bike longer and faster while on dope than anyone else. But who gives fuck. lonestarnot Jan 2013 #92
Hell no! dawg Jan 2013 #96
He's not my type, really. MineralMan Jan 2013 #101
This has been a good year for the mask to fall eilen Jan 2013 #105
Check out what The Onion store is selling: FSogol Jan 2013 #106
Check out Charlie Rose last night. Excellent analysis by writers following him LuckyLib Jan 2013 #107
Like I wrote in another thread: Tour de Martyr. nt Javaman Jan 2013 #110
I could care less if these guys juice. GoneOffShore Jan 2013 #114
With all the things going on on the planet, this is way down on my list to be upset about Marrah_G Jan 2013 #117
 

Helen Reddy

(998 posts)
5. I was never a world class athlete.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:51 AM
Jan 2013

However, I was a Division I collegiate athlete. From all of us who NEVER enhanced our skills falsely, all of us who left sweat, blood and tears on the *surface of your choice, I spit on Armstrongs shoes.


Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
35. Cheating is cheating,...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:36 PM
Jan 2013

whether you are a kid on a local softball team or a world class athlete or a 1% tax cheat. And what punishment has he received? Losing the titles he won by cheating? Reputation that was also ill gotten?

 

OneMoreDemocrat

(913 posts)
3. I can understand some folks feeling that way...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:50 AM
Jan 2013

But there's still a lot of good he did in the world where fund-raising for cancer research is concerned. In fact I think a lot of people connect him more with Livestrong and his recovery than with the cycling anymore.

Just kinda sad all around.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
18. I agree, he cheated, but there's not one clean person in cycling...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:18 PM
Jan 2013

And they seem to thnk getting Lance cleans up everything.

He did a lot of good with his winnings, unlike Barroid and Clemens.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
53. And probably caused his own testicular cancer in the first place with steroids and testosterone
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:41 PM
Jan 2013

unintended consequences, and all. So there's a bit of irony there, at least. If he hadn't juiced, he might not have gotten cancer, and definitely wouldn't have raised the money he did for charity. On balance? Professional athletes who can find a competitive advantage will seek to do so, considering the stakes involved; personally I'm not entirely certain that the best response isn't just to legalise the use of performance-enhancing drugs and hormone therapies and so on in athletics with some medical standards to limit negative effects, just to put everyone on a level playing field (instead of punishing those who stay clean).

frylock

(34,825 posts)
20. i associate armstrong with the lying and slanderous remarks about his fellow teammates..
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:18 PM
Jan 2013

to reiterate the OP; fuck Lance Armstrong.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
30. Livestrong hasn't funded any cancer research since 2005.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:29 PM
Jan 2013

A lot of what they did was things like raising "awareness", which in practice meant building up the Lance Armstrong brand. Here's an article about it.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
60. You're entitled to admire him, I suppose.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:22 PM
Jan 2013

Since we're trading opinions on the man, I think everything he did was to burnish his own image or to promote his own causes. He had no interest in funding anything until cancer affected him personally. I don't think he's a great philanthropist by any definition. He's self-interested, narcissistic and needy of attention and adulation. So, there's my opinion for what it's worth.

GeorgeGist

(25,289 posts)
61. Do some homework.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:36 PM
Jan 2013

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE LAB RATS
If Lance Armstrong went to jail and Livestrong went away, that would be a huge setback in our war against cancer, right? Not exactly, because the famous nonprofit donates almost ­nothing to scientific research. BILL GIFFORD looks at where the money goes and finds a mix of fine ideas, millions of dollars aimed at “awareness,” and a few very blurry lines.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=1

jsr

(7,712 posts)
67. Also, the confusion is intentional:
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:19 PM
Jan 2013
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+myths+persist+about+Lance+Armstrong/7424086/story.html

What is more troublesome is that there are two parallel organizations here: Livestrong.org, the charity, and the parallel Livestrong.com, a for-profit entity. And the myth that the charity provides funding for cancer research persists, even though LiveStrong’s own website makes it clear the charity is not in the research business.

rustydog

(9,186 posts)
94. He may have done good, but the people he sullied calling them liars
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:33 PM
Jan 2013

and his heavy handed tactics to cover his doping puts a damper on his angel angle.
The only reason he is now coming clean is a money angle, bet on it.

Brother Buzz

(35,880 posts)
15. How does the bike fake a doping test?
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:13 PM
Jan 2013

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it pee. Besides, Armstrong has always said, "It’s not about the bike".

 

CE5

(62 posts)
29. I'm saying that he might have rigged his bike with some sort of cheating device.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:28 PM
Jan 2013

certainly there are rules for the bikes. If he doped I wouldn't put it past him doing that.

Brother Buzz

(35,880 posts)
41. Tons of rules, and inspectors poke at everything
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:55 PM
Jan 2013

before and after a race. Ideas and innovations are developed for the bikes by the industry following strict rules, but nothing is secreted through the process. And through the process, if something new works, everyone will soon have it, or improve upon it; the edge is a fleeting moment.

Today, if you had a deep enough pocket, you can buy a super light fast bike that would be competitive with the pros, but it would not qualify to race because it's to light.

It's not the bicycle, it's the rider.

Pisces

(5,575 posts)
6. I don't condone what Lance did, however, I believe they are all doping. Even with doping he still
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:52 AM
Jan 2013

had to be a tremendous athlete to win 7 Tours. He is also a huge asshole, egomaniac.

 

FunkyLeprechaun

(2,383 posts)
37. Sir Bradley Wiggins (the 2012 Tour de France winner) HATES doping
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:44 PM
Jan 2013

His father did doping in athletics and Wiggins makes it a point not to dope at all for cycling and makes all his teammates be clean as well so that includes Mark Cavendish.

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
8. Why is it that so many people believe in this "win at all costs" mentality?
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:59 AM
Jan 2013

That kind of mentality is just stupid and short sighted, perpetrating fraud without getting caught is very hard and ultimately bites them in the butt. It seems that they would rather bask in the glory in the short term even if in the long term they are eventually despised and seen with contempt. It's incredibly self centered and wastes other people's time and effort.

 

CE5

(62 posts)
31. Yeah he could have just won three or four Tour de France
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:29 PM
Jan 2013

and said, I'm done. and nobody would have been the wiser. He had to push it.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
9. He never would have admitted it if not caught.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:59 AM
Jan 2013

It's not so much that he doped, but that he lied about it and continued to lie about it in spite of the evidence. And - maybe the worst part - had a lot of people stand by him and defend his name in good faith while he kept quiet. He's an asshole.

frylock

(34,825 posts)
23. this, right here..
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jan 2013

I can get past the cheating, but this dick said some pretty nasty stuff about Floyd Landis.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
47. As someone not a big sports fan, can you post a link to
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:13 PM
Jan 2013

his remarks, please? I would be grateful. Thanks.

frylock

(34,825 posts)
51. here you go..
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:35 PM
Jan 2013

Landis, said Armstrong, is "a carton of sour milk: once you take the first sip, you don't have to drink the rest to know it has all gone bad."

The statement continued: "Today's Wall Street Journal article is full of false accusations and more of the same old news from Floyd Landis, a person with zero credibility and an established pattern of recanting tomorrow what he swears to today."

It added: "For years, sensational stories based on the allegations of ax-grinders — have surfaced on the eve of the Tour for publicity reasons, and this article is simply no different."

http://road.cc/content/news/19623-lance-armstrong-attacks-zero-credibility-latest-floyd-landis-allegations

"While these types of repeated, tired and baseless accusations against Lance have been proven false in the past, it is quite regrettable, but telling, that so many in cycling are now attacked by a bitter and scorned Landis who, quite simply, has zero credibility."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/8695890.stm

jsr

(7,712 posts)
10. You're missing The Greatest Story of Redemption Ever Told
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:48 AM
Jan 2013

by The Greatest Athlete Ever Lived.

On What's-Her-Name's talk show.

a la izquierda

(11,768 posts)
19. Your question is confusing.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:18 PM
Jan 2013

Do you mean why was a government agency sponsoring a cycling team at all? Or are you wondering why in Europe? If it's the second, it would take a better- more patient- person than me to explain the ins and outs of cycling.

If you're asking the first question, who knows why US Postal sponsored a sports team.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
25. The USPS is in bad financial shape. How would supporting a cycling team be good for their marketing?
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:22 PM
Jan 2013

Since cycling is a pretty low profile sport in the US, it wouldn't have much impact in their main market.

Cycling is mainly European. What was the US Postal service attempting to achieve their by supporting a cycling team?

It just seems a strange use of marketing funds by a semi-bankrupt organization.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
56. What politician connects Thomas Weisel and the US Postal Service
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 02:37 PM
Jan 2013

USPS poured $40 million into the team.

It's unlikely they would have done so had not Thomas Weisel worked with some politician having oversight of the USPS back in '96.

Will Thomas Weisel, Who Owns Lance Armstrong's U.S. Postal Team, Get Charged with Fraud?

In Silicon Valley, Weisel, 71, is renowned for having taken public such companies as Amgen (AMGN) and Yahoo! (YHOO). In sports, though, he is known as the founder, owner, and chairman of San Francisco-based Tailwind Sports, the holding company for the U.S. Postal Service cycling team that Armstrong led to an unbroken string of seven victories in the Tour de France, from 1999 to 2005. From 1996 to 2004, the U.S. Postal Service paid out $40 million in federal funds to sponsor the team. Team management, which hired and paid the riders, promised in its contracts not to tolerate doping. The Major Fraud Investigations Division of the Postal Service’s Office of Inspector General is trying to determine if Armstrong and others defrauded the government by violating that no-doping clause, a federal prosecutor wrote in a filing last year. Weisel declined to comment for this story. He has not publicly addressed reports of doping on the team.


http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-15/will-thomas-weisel-the-owner-of-lance-armstrongs-u-dot-s-dot-postal-team-get-charged-with-fraud

What was the political connection in '96?
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
75. Why would the USPS be sponsoring anything?
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:08 PM
Jan 2013

They have been broke forever. Sponsorship should come from private industry, not from taxpayer funded government agencies.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
80. Maybe Weisel was in cahoots with some congressperson on the Postal Service committee
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:19 PM
Jan 2013

All for the good of sport and the US image abroad, have USPS throw a few million a year to a US cycling team. A number of these folks were connected with Olympic cycling and trying to raise the profile ofUS bicycling as an Olympic sport.

The usual corrupt dipping into the public trough.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
87. Because the Tour de France is the pinnacle of world cycling? And because of Lance Armstrong.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:39 PM
Jan 2013

Who is American and whose Tour wins after beating cancer were inspirational and good for advertising. He was Sports Illustrated's Sportsman of the Year. He was on the cover of Time and Newsweek. I would think the "why" would be fairly obvious.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
109. The USPS is a brand just like FedEx and UPS
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:15 PM
Jan 2013

and they were fighting hard for their piece of the overnight delivery pie.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
14. The only way I would have any respect for him, would be if he had confessed *before* being busted.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 11:53 AM
Jan 2013

He's only sorry that he got caught.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
16. He followed the laws of greed
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:15 PM
Jan 2013

That's what it is all about. Lie cheat and steal, money is everything and without it in massive amounts you are a Nothing.

That teaching point is plastered everywhere - so as much as I dislike this Lanced Boil, he was only going by the rules of greed that is so admired by so many.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
22. The odd part is, he's actually a phenomenal athlete. I had reservations about his wins, but believed
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jan 2013

Now I feel like a sucker.

I often think about what it must be like to be him. I can hardly imagine how awful it must be to have blown it so badly that the entire
world of people look at you with disdain.

I'm more sick of the bloated, corporate sponsored, spectacle of competitive sports than those who are the players.

I have watched the Tour de France, and often wondered just what it was like before paved roads, derailleurs. It must have been insane. But now it's more like Formula racing, with pitstops and all.

Barf. Things are too fast, and too big now. And too much MONEY.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
24. Remember, everyone he "beat" was also doped up.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:22 PM
Jan 2013

So, in a perverted sort of way, he was STILL the champion.



Seriously, I'm NOT defending him. But if we're talking about a level playing field, well...his doped up competitors weren't as good as he was. Sure, it doesn't mean the whole sport isn't a scam.

I urge you all to watch "The Triplets of Belleville." Best movie ever. It's Lance, animated, but not on steriods.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tblue

(16,350 posts)
32. Yeah. I just don't have the energy to be outraged
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:30 PM
Jan 2013

over this. I admire that he conquered cancer. He doped. A lot of them doped. He's getting punished. I have no need to pile on. There's other more important stuff going on.

11 Bravo

(23,921 posts)
69. I'll tell Muhammad Ali the next time I see him. I would also tell Arthur Ashe, Jesse Owens, ...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:23 PM
Jan 2013

and Luz Long, but sadly, they're no longer with us.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
36. most of you never followed cycling
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:42 PM
Jan 2013

so you don't know that this has been happening forever. They have a monument for Tommy Simpson on Mount Ventoux for doing amphetamines and dying on the climb. Does that say something to you about cycling.
. Pantini and Ulrich(Armstrong's main competitors were also doping. They all doped and he was the best.

you are all naive. As far as Bonds, he did it because everyone else was doing it and he couldn't stand that lesser ballplayers were doing better than him. How many of us could stand that a lesser ballplayer was getting more press than yourself. not many of us could stand up to that.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
45. Pantani. There's a place in my heart for him.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:08 PM
Jan 2013

My life has pretty much always been about bikes. There's so much personality and beauty in the sport. For me it's more than sport. When I rode the road, it was the 60's. Even today the bike is demonized in America. The bike gives one a real perspective on just who is aggressive and who is a lover of beauty. It's hard to put it into a tiny post.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
62. I still ride steel
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:44 PM
Jan 2013

reynolds 531 I have a Holdsworth special that I have updated. I am buying new brakes and I'm down to 21 pounds. As you know light for steel. Steel is real

also watch this race

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
72. We now know that Armstrong blood doped before this Ventoux climb
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:50 PM
Jan 2013

and doped EPO before Sestriere. It's sad these historic climbs are marred by doping.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
74. and Pantini didn't?
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 06:48 PM
Jan 2013

they all did it. He was the best. Not Mercx of course but the best of the present day people.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
86. How could I ever forget that epic climb. I have a Colnago knockoff from 1967.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jan 2013

I love the bike. No sharing roads since the 80's. I went over to mountain biking in 84. Besides, shocks and discs are so cool. I'm riding an Ibis Mojo.

I remember the night we all got together at a friend's house and called Jack Taylor. We ordered one of his bikes. That was probably 1972.

Now it's trails through the redwood trees. My life is designed around the bike. If only the world knew just how great it was, maybe they'd get out of their stinking cars.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
89. He was not the best.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:57 PM
Jan 2013

Doping is not an on/off switch. Not everyone's programs were the same. Some people did more, some people did less. And all indications are that USPS had the best doping program.

The problem with the argument that they all did it and he was the best is that it changes the sport from an athletic competition to something else. It's not about who has more talent and who trains hardest. It is about who has the best doping program. Who responds best to PEDs. Which team is able to get away with more without tripping the tests. Who is willing to put more stuff in their body, take more risks.

"They say" that the most talented rider of the era was Ullrich. In fact, I've heard speculation that Ullrich was clean, or almost clean, during the first few years that Lance beat him (starting in 99, after Festina), and he only started doping again after he kept losing. Just speculation, but it would be amazing if true.

Really, we'll never know for sure who was the best. Lance and USPS were the best at certain things, but not bike riding.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
97. And "I think" is just "I think".
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 08:06 AM
Jan 2013

I get that you like the guy, but the fact that he figured out how to juice more than the rest of the field doesn't actually make him the best rider.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
102. and your proof is ?
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:42 PM
Jan 2013

I actually also like the "pirate" Pantini and Urich. I thought they gave us great racing. The french hated Lance because he was an American. Going way back Europeans have always had a checkered past. Do you remember Lasse Viren?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
108. Neither of us have any proof.
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:19 PM
Jan 2013

The only way to know would be to run the race clean, but that didn't happen. But to say that the guy who wins a dirty race is the best rider is incorrect. Like I said, doping is not an on/off switch, there is more dope and less dope.

As to Ullrich, I don't have proof, just stuff I've heard, which is that "they" think that Ullrich was the best rider of the era. For example, apparently Jonathan Vaughters claimed that Ullrich's HCT never rose about 42 in the 2000 tour.

– Cyclingvaughters : C’est là que j’ai réalisé que
Lance nous racontait vraiment des conneries quand il
disait que tout le mondefaisait comme nous…Croismoi,
aussi dingue que cela puisse paraître, Moreau
ne prenait rien, son hématocrite était à 39.
– FDREU : En 2000-2001 ?
– Cyclingvaughters : Oui… Alors, bien sûr, on
commence à réfléchir. Putain, Kevin (Livingston, qui
avait quitté l’US Postal fin 2000 pour aller chez Telekom)
m’a dit qu’après 2000 Ullrich ne courait jamais
au-dessus de 42 !
– FDREU : Après 1999, beaucoup de choses ont
changé. Pas Lance. J’imagine que c’est pour ça que
Kevin s’est tiré. Il en avait marre de tout ça.

http://justcycling.myfastforum.org/archive/no-smoke-without-fire__o_t__t_112.html

Who knows if that is true, but if it is, it's pretty remarkable. But even if it's not, given what has come to light about the sophistication of USPS doping, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Armstrong was more doped than his main competitors.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
103. No, not all cyclists doped.
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:53 PM
Jan 2013

Ask Andy Hampsten and Scott Mercier what doping and the Lance ethic did to their careers.

Lance is a piece of shit egomaniac who never did anything - Livestrong included - that wasn't self-promotion.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
111. Pantani and Urich both tested positive
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 04:51 PM
Jan 2013

Hampsten rode in the late eighties and it was a different era and no comparable to today. Mercier left before Armstrong even rode for USPS. How can you even bring these two up. They are totally irrelevant.
How do you know that Armstrong was the first. According to Mercier USPS was doing drugs in '96. What does that have to do with Armstrong? Secondly, How do you know that Armstrong was first and not Pantani?

This really goes back to Bonds who I have never blamed or called a cheater. Bond's never took steroids until everyone else did. He saw the Sosa's and the McGuire's of he world all of a sudden become better than he was. He was easily the best player of his era and his only competition was Griffey.

Ask yourself a simple question could you not take steroids when less talented players were all of a sudden outproducing you. I don't think I could and I doubt you could unless you don't have a competitive bone in your body.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
112. Both were made irrelevant by EPO.
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 05:02 PM
Jan 2013

Pantani doped, but Andy and Scott both had the talent to be Tour contenders but refused to dope. It was for that reason alone they couldn't keep up, and that's the simple truth. If you're implying they didn't have a "competitive bone in their bodies" that's bullshit.

I won't even speculate what I would have done because I was never in their shoes. I don't hold doping against Lance half as much as the vicious, threatening tactics he used to destroy other's careers and reputations. He's truly a despicable waste of skin.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
113. top athlete's are assholes - Jordan, Brady, Nicklaus,Russell, Bonds
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 10:21 PM
Jan 2013

That is what makes them top athlete's- It is their competitive edge

so let's take a look at when steroids took of


let's take baseball as an example hr champ in
93- bonds- 46
94- matt williams- 43
95 dante Bichette 40
96-Galleraga- 49
97 larry walker-47

all normal totals

takes off in

98-McGuire- 70
99- mcguire-65
2000- sosa-50
2001- bonds 73

what year did hampsten ride- 88-93
what years did Mercier quit -96

doping had not really taken off. Your argument doesn't hold water. there has always been some "drugs in cycling but it didn't take off until late in the 90's.
why did Bond's dope you never answered that.

I don't think you were very competitive in sports. I'm 61 and I played basketball the other day and someone was being dirty with me on the court and guess what I threw an elbow at him. I am in sales and in sales only winning counts. second place get's no commission.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
115. Hampsten quit in '95, Mercier in '97
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 11:09 PM
Jan 2013

Doping "had not really taken off"? Really.

“Before EPO,” the 1988 Giro d’Italia champion Andy Hampsten told me, “we knew we were always racing against guys on drugs, but I don’t think those drugs gave them more of an advantage than the advantage we had knowing they’re gonna come crashing down. We didn’t lose energy worrying about what other people were doing; we just focused on ourselves, and we didn’t need to win every race.”

That “higher ground” attitude of Hampsten’s American team, Motorola, began to change in 1994. “There was a lot of grumbling on the team,” Hampsten said, “and we did get technical data from team doctor Massimo Testa because he’d talk to his colleagues on other teams. He was always straight with me. ‘Sure enough,’ he said, ‘if so-and-so who you raced with for eight years and you always dropped on the climbs, if that guy’s beating you now, his hematocrit is 15 points higher, and he’s gonna kill you in the mountains.’”

http://redkiteprayer.com/tag/andy-hampsten/

"Scott Mercier says doping culture at US Postal made him quit professional cycling

Mercier was a member of the team in 1997, one year before Lance Armstrong joined the roster, and says that performance enhancing drugs were already a part of the set-up.

At the end of that year's Tour de Romandie Mercier said he was called into a room by Pedro Celaya, who has been charged by the United States Anti-Doping Agency but has opted for an arbitration hearing, and told to take steroids to aid his training.

"He called the riders into his room one at a time to give us a training programme - it had been a hard early season," Mercier told Sky Sports."

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/8189460/Scott-Mercier-says-doping-culture-at-US-Postal-made-him-quit-professional-cycling

Why did Bonds and McGwire dope? I suppose it was to "win", although you're not really winning if you cheat, are you? Now they're just disgraced has-beens like Lance. I don't envy those idiots in the slightest.

I'm not sure why you say I'm not very competitive in sports, I guess it's all relative. I ride about 4,000 miles and climb a vertical century (528,000 ft) in a good year. I don't play basketball but I'm fairly certain I could kick your ass on a bicycle. So yes, I can get competitive, and I know more than most about pro cycling. But that's relative too.

 

wilt the stilt

(4,528 posts)
116. high and mighty
Thu Jan 17, 2013, 08:23 AM
Jan 2013

McGuire and Clemens were at the end of their careers and I understand why they did it. Bond's gets a pass from me. Most people except you would would dope to keep up. This is professional which neither you or I am. Professional athletes are different and if you were the best and all of a sudden everyone is doing better than you the you would just sit by. If you are as competitive as you say you are I bet you would certainly consider it and I bet you would do it. If not then you wouldn't be going back and forth with me. you are only doing it because you are competitive.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
38. They should throw him in solitary and make him eat nothing but Nutraloaf...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:46 PM
Jan 2013

FYI: Nutraloaf is the "food" guards serve to inmates when they've been bad. You get caught flinging poo at the guards or stabbing your fellow prisoners with your prison spork, you're thrown in the Hole and you're served Nutraloaf for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/nutriloaf,2257/



Nutriloaf: the food so bad that prisoners have sued, claiming the food is cruel and unusual punishment, and occasionally win! The prison wardens argue the Eighth Amendment only mandates they have to serve nutritious food (which Nutraloaf is - it's got all the vitamins and minerals you need if you can choke 'em down), not tasty food.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
39. I believed in him even when they were stripping his titles.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:49 PM
Jan 2013

I bought into the line that it was all a conspiracy ginned up by an overeager doping agency, and supported by false confessions from former teammates trying to arrange lighter punishments.

Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
76. Why on Earth would you have believed that?
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:15 PM
Jan 2013

What is it about Armstrong that makes people want to buy into elaborate theories where every single person in the entire sport is lying except him?

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
99. Stupidity mostly.
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 12:16 PM
Jan 2013

I've lost many people in my life to cancer, and Armstrong was an inspiration to several of them. One of my best friends ran the 2005 Bay To Breakers with stage 4 cancer and was preparing to run his first triathlon when he passed away, and he regularly credited Armstrong as being his inspiration..."Cancer didn't stop Lance Armstrong, and it's not going to stop me!" He would be heartbroken to know that Armstrong cheated.

I didn't want to believe, because believing meant accepting that many of those who were genuinely inspired by him were simply duped. It also meant accepting the fact that a cancer survivor DIDN'T overcome his death sentence and go on to become one of the worlds best athletes. He gave people hope, and that hope has largely been dashed.

I know that Armstrong has never got a lot of love on the always cynical DU, but many cancer patients cling to whatever hope and inspiration they can find. Armstrong was that hope and inspiration for many people. Now he's just a fraud.

Dawson Leery

(19,348 posts)
42. The concept of the "sports hero" is relic of primative human society.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 12:56 PM
Jan 2013

I have never admired any sports player for their "craft".
Sports is entertainment, nothing more.

Response to Stuart G (Original post)

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
50. Not only is he a disgusting pig and a phoney, he's a Bush lover.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:32 PM
Jan 2013

And what he did to Sheryl Crow was just plain evil!

jsr

(7,712 posts)
65. That's a myth
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:08 PM
Jan 2013
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+myths+persist+about+Lance+Armstrong/7424086/story.html

Myth: Lance Armstrong has raised $500 million for cancer research.

Fact: According Gifford’s investigative piece, LiveStrong — the foundation Armstrong helped to establish after suffering testicular cancer — donated only $20 million to cancer research between 1998 and 2005. In 2005, LiveStrong began phasing out its research donation, and since 2010 the charity no longer accepts applications for research grants.

Instead, the lion’s share of the funds raised by LiveStrong, according to Gifford, have gone to fuzzier assistance programs, like “survivorship” and “global awareness,” and for the worthy cause of helping victims in the U.S. negotiate the thickets of the medieval American health-care system, where the simple and effective Canadian-style Medicare system is rejected for the greater profit of insurance companies, drug companies, private hospitals and doctors.

What is more troublesome is that there are two parallel organizations here: Livestrong.org, the charity, and the parallel Livestrong.com, a for-profit entity. And the myth that the charity provides funding for cancer research persists, even though LiveStrong’s own website makes it clear the charity is not in the research business.
 

WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
68. Yikes.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:19 PM
Jan 2013

Thanks for the info.

That's what I get for believing what I hear on sports talk radio.

*withdrawing from conversation*

RedCappedBandit

(5,514 posts)
64. He still owns all of his accomplishments.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:49 PM
Jan 2013

You're incredibly naive if you think all of the competition wasn't in the same boat.


Now, as for the whole idolization of athletes at the level our society does.. it's ridiculous. Armstrong, though, has contributed much more to the world than his success in cycling.

RedCappedBandit

(5,514 posts)
78. It's not relevant; his success was due to his work and talent.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 08:19 PM
Jan 2013

Juicing doesn't magically do all of the work for you. Nor is it an unfair advantage when it's expected at that level of competition.

RedCappedBandit

(5,514 posts)
84. Don't make assumptions.
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 09:39 PM
Jan 2013

I am an athlete and choose to remain natural despite the fact that it means I may never be competitive beyond a certain level.

That doesn't take anything away from what Armstrong has accomplished, athletically nor otherwise. Juicing is a personal choice, and to single out one athlete when the entire system is guilty of the same crimes is a waste of time. I have much respect for cyclists (or other athletes) who chooses not to use drugs, but it's irrelevant when you're discussing the best in the world.

Control-Z

(15,681 posts)
66. The betrayal
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:10 PM
Jan 2013

It reminds me of my marriage to a Narcissist. When I found out my entire marriage had been a lie. Every happy moment. Every bit of security and comfort. None of it had been real or honest.

 

TheMadMonk

(6,187 posts)
85. Would that be "Fuck Lance Armstrong" because...
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:26 PM
Jan 2013

...you were one of his most ardent defenders and he's now left you looking like an idiot? Or because even in disgrace he commands an appearance fee in excess of many peoples annual salary?

 

zonkers

(5,865 posts)
90. I can't help feeling bad for all the honest racers deprived of their shot at #1 due to this ass clow
Tue Jan 15, 2013, 10:59 PM
Jan 2013

n.

MineralMan

(146,023 posts)
101. He's not my type, really.
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 02:12 PM
Jan 2013

Here's the thing: Suggesting that having sex with Lance Armstrong would somehow punish him doesn't really make sense. That usage of the word "fuck" has never made any sense to me. I'd like to see it go out of use by intelligent people.

eilen

(4,950 posts)
105. This has been a good year for the mask to fall
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:10 PM
Jan 2013

for the truth to come to light in many areas and many different institutions including professional sportsmen. I think the use of performance enhancing drugs is more widespread than is generally thought. Also, where is the line drawn between the use of supplements and precursors and the actual drug? In my work with cancer patients and people with anemia, epo or procrit is a very common drug to help the bone marrow recover and start producing more red blood cells. It is a synthetic synergist-- a compound that is part of the genesis/pathway in creating them. There is another one made for white blood cells.

At any rate, the corruption in varied aspects of our world and society are being exposed and for that, we should be thankful as it is a gift to see. We must decide what and how to progress from here knowing what we know.

LuckyLib

(6,809 posts)
107. Check out Charlie Rose last night. Excellent analysis by writers following him
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 03:18 PM
Jan 2013

and cycling for years. He left a trail of intimidation, threats, and the whole doping enterprise became the center of his efforts -- it was/is a culture. He ruined reputations and lives and clearly thought the cancer philanthropy would be good cover. These analysts are skeptical that this is a come clean time -- it's all part of a devious pathology.

http://www.charlierose.com/

GoneOffShore

(17,266 posts)
114. I could care less if these guys juice.
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jan 2013

Not saying it's right, but it has been going on since the first rock throwing games.

As someone in professional sports said, If you're not cheating, you're not winning.

And guess what? It's really not about "how you played the game". It's about whether you win or lose. That whole meme of "how you played the game" was probably made up by the guy who came in second.

Pro athletes juice/drug/enhance/cheat and if you think differently, Michael Jackson didn't have plastic surgery, Lindsay Lohan doesn't do coke, and Elvis is still alive somewhere. Plus I've got some really great land to self you in Florida with a bridge to Brooklyn.

And the next thing I hear will be: Well, what about the children?

What about them? Tell them the truth. If you want to be a pro athlete you need to be talented, you need to train hard and you're going to have to take drugs. And if you don't, be an athlete for fun. Don't go pro.

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