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[NCTraveler]

This message was self-deleted by its author (NCTraveler) on Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:36 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[PoliticAverse]

1. The temporary 2% payroll tax cut expired. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. yep

[still_one]

79. It should have never been done in the first place. It hurt social security /nt

[the botnet]

138. Not true. FICA (Social Security) taxes go into the general fund.

There is no trust fund, separate fund, lockbox, whatever. It goes into the same pot as income taxes. Pretending that FICA is dedicated to Social Security does not make it true.

Again, FICA goes into the general fund.

What we have here, boys and girls, is a genuine tax increase on the "middle class".

Thank you very much.

[ret5hd]

143. Well, at least we don't have to guess about your intelligence.

[SammyWinstonJack]

146. ...

[RC]

148. That is blatantly not true.

The funds are collected by the Internal Revenue Service and redirected into the a separate fund setup for Social Security. Those monies are then used to buy Government bonds, that pay, or are supposed to pay, interest.

And by the way, that is not a tax increase, it is finally allowing a temporary bu$h tax cut to expire.

Enjoy your stay.

[Soft Tips]

178. Not Bush, but Obama

Or more appropriately (to your font preference)... Not Bu$h, but Øbama

[fingusernames]

193. Holiday and trust fund

Actually, the holiday was from the 2009 Obama stimulus package, though apparently it originated from discussions with Republicans in Congress as an alternative to the "Making Work Pay" credit.

Also, per the most recent Social Security Trustee report (2012), as of 2010 tax revenue is no longer sufficient to cover expenses. The shortfall is covered by the interest from the trust fund. Social Security is no longer purchasing new Treasury securities. 2021 is the year that they forecast both revenue + interest being insufficient. The federal Treasury securities will be cashed in starting then, and totally gone by approximately 2033 if nothing is done. Apparently some modest changes to

Finally, the accusations (and I'm definitely not saying you said it, but others have) that we "stole" the "trust fund" are ridiculous. Social Security by law purchases Treasury securities with excess funds, as you wrote. That transfers the money to the general fund, which is used to pay for everything else. Fiat "money" is just numbers on paper/in computers, there's no safe deposit box or bank account into which the United States Treasury would deposit the revenue from selling those securities.

A proposal by Republicans back in the mid-90s was the idea of the "lockbox." This would have required that excess Social Security revenue be used exclusively to pay off existing debt, in exchange for Treasury securities, and thus not increase the overall federal debt. That would have basically required the federal government to fund additional debt by selling it to the general market, not Social Security. Of course, that would have just increased the overall federal debt by the same amount. Just a trick of book-keeping basically, but perhaps one that would make the growing debt more noticeable. That proposal passed with an overwhelming bi-partisan majority in the House, but was filibustered by Democrats in the Senate, where it died. I'm not sure why they were so opposed to it in the Senate, since it was basically a zero-sum result.

[AllyCat]

156. Who is pretending?

If not a separate fund, why is it taken out separately? Why not just lumped in with income taxes?

It is a separate fund. This was a temporary "tax holiday" anyway. It is the same amount we were paying before to fund our future.

[the botnet]

174. "The payroll tax income itself goes into the General Fund"

http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/Soc_Sec_Trust.htm

Yep. I'm amazed at the brilliance of the posters here.

[Liberal In Texas]

213. Your link quotes the Heritage Foundation.

The truth is:

From its inception, the Trust Fund has always worked the same way. The Social Security Trust Fund has never been "put into the general fund of the government."
Most likely this myth comes from a confusion between the financing of the Social Security program and the way the Social Security Trust Fund is treated in federal budget accounting.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths.html

And yes, you should be amazed by the brilliance of some of the posters here. You, of course, are not one of them.

[OldDem2012]

2. It was called a 2% tax holiday and it just expired. You are now paying what you were....

...before the holiday was implemented.

It's helping to fund SS.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. It went back to what it was 2 years ago.

The temporary payroll tax "holiday" expired - it was supposed to do last year but was extended.

[NCTraveler]

4. Thank you all for the answers. nt

[dkf]

5. This is what you pay so that you can receive a semi-decent social security payment at retirement.

It's part of the premium you pay to insure against abject poverty in your old age.

[atreides1]

7. No

This is what you pay so that the politicians can take money out of the fund to pay off the deficit for anything unfunded!

And when they raise the retirement age and chain the CPI, you will be living in abject poverty...providing you make it to retirement!

[dkf]

18. Chaining the CPI has no impact on your initial payment.

It does determine how well that payment keeps up throughout retirement though.

The longer you live the more impact high inflation will have. That is where the printing of money will be a problem if it is how we have to pay our debts.

[Progressive dog]

33. Really, so initial payments increase with the CPI and we

only go to chained once you start collecting. Sure they do. {sarcasm}

[Ms. Toad]

132. The initial payments have been the same percentage of your income since 1990.

(Except for the 2 year holiday which just expired).

Any increase in your initial payments is tied to your income, not to the CPI.

[JDPriestly]

83. Chained CPI will affect initial payments because they too will not go up with the generally

applicable inflation rate.

[dkf]

175. They use the average wage index to calculate your initial payments, not CPI or chained CPI.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/awiseries.html

[leftynyc]

123. Freepers are simply brain dead morons

You know nothing about how SS is structured and you and your party would do well to just sit down and shut the fuck up after putting tax cuts and 2 wars on a credit card and then bitching when the bills have to be paid.

[leftynyc]

129. No - fantasy world

is what fox news was feeding you rubes before the election. Hope you choked on what Rove, Morris and Hannity were feeding you. The Democrats will be laughing about that for a very, very long time.

[Soft Tips]

181. "putting tax cuts on a credit card"

99% of those "tax cuts on a credit card" were just made permanent. Makes you sick, huh?

[owenmagoo]

183. iraq was bush's disaster, but afghanistan is someone else's

total afghan war spending 01-08:
171.7 billion.
09-12:
385.6 billion.

twice the bush spending, in half the time.
the casualties have also seen a massive expansion.

[pinto]

6. Temp decrease for employee contribution, 6.2% to 4.2%, expired. Returned to previous rate.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n1036.pdf

The employee tax rate for social security is 6.2%.
Previously, the employee tax rate for social security was 4.2%.

The employer tax rate for social security remains unchanged at 6.2%. The social security wage base limit is $113,700.

The Medicare tax rate is 1.45% each for the employee and employer, unchanged from 2012. There is no wage base limit for Medicare tax.

[NCTraveler]

12. Thank you for the excellent information. nt.

[uponit7771]

25. +1

[tularetom]

61. No limit on Medicare tax?

The solution then is not to collect it as a payroll tax but instead add it to everybody's tax bill on your 1040. That way, assholes like Mitt Romney who don't draw a salary but make gazillions of dollars from dividends and capital gains, would be on the hook for 1.45% of their income in medicare payments.

For Romney who had an income of $21 million in 2011 (the only year for which he ever released any returns) his Medicare premiums for that year would have been $304,500.

That's how badly these pricks are fucking the rest of us.

[uhlerster]

97. I'm sick of them avoiding their fair share

Did you see where Al Gore sold his TV station and his share is $100,000,000? He was trying to get it done last year so he could avoid the higher tax on the rich. Are there no honest men left?

[titaniumsalute]

125. Huh??

Ok you know taxes are going to go up. You are in the process of selling something you own. The have a choice to try to make it happen to pay less taxes? Who in their right mind wouldn't do that? I'm an honest person and I would have done the same thing. When the big benefits for home buying were going on years ago I rushed to buy a house for an extra low interest rate after Sept. 11, 2001. Does that make me a bad person or smart investor?

[leftynyc]

127. Another asshole freeper

What was so dishonest about what he did? Is it too hard to understand that while one party is asking the wealthiest to pay their fair share (and Mitt Romney having an effective tax rate that is half of mine is just not fair), the other is wanting to fellate the wealthy with more tax cuts. That's the difference but I'm thinking the two brain cells you have cannot handle complex thinking. It's a problem with all you slimebags on the right.

[Earthworm]

159. It's not what he did but the hypocrisy behind it

I would also do whatever I could to avoid paying higher taxes, but I am also not one who complains about the rich not paying their "fair share".

[Live and Learn]

165. Yet, I bet you are one that complains whenever your car hits a pothole.

How the heck do you know what Gore was thinking? You don't and providing biased speculation about other peoples motives does not make you a moral exemplar.

[leftynyc]

173. Who wants to pay higher taxes?

The answer is nobody. Now let's discuss the actual issue - the monstrosity that is our tax code which allows the wealthy to pay a much lower effective tax rate than everyone else which is most certainly NOT THEIR FAIR SHARE. Is that too complicated for you? The difference between the parties is that one wants to make things ACTUALLY FAIR and the other wants to make it more inequitable.

It doesn't seem like a difficult concept but you righties just repeat whatever moronic theory rush, sean or oreilly have that day - you're tiresome and while I know it's hard to get your asses kicked like you did on election day, try using your brain once in a while. I promise it'll only hurt a little. Or you can continue voting against your own interests cuz rush told you to.

[Live and Learn]

162. I see no credible source for that information.

In fact, if avoiding taxes was his goal he would have taken Beck's offer up. He didn't and the deal went through in January, so please stop regurgitating FAUX News bs.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

194. No, no limit on Medicare taxable wages

The limit was removed sometime in the 80's or 90's. IIRC, it was capped at $135,000 at the time. (I did payroll for 20 years)

[JoePhilly]

9. That break was one of the only stimulus options Obama had left two years ago.

It was intended to put a few extra bucks in your (and my) pocket while the economy was still very weak.

Now that the economy seems to be growing again, albeit slowly, that temporary tax cut is expiring.

[fingusernames]

196. Illinois

For those of us unfortunate enough to live in Illinois, it didn't even put money in our pockets. Rather, it just masked the state income tax hike. No benefit, all pain now.

Of course, the Illinois income tax hike is temporary, so we'll get a "stimulus" when it expires in 2015. In other news, pigs learn to fly!

[JoePhilly]

197. As always, state tax issues are state tax issues.

I used to live in Montgomery County Maryland. There, they take your State income tax, and then you pay an additional tax to the county that is 50% of whatever your state tax was.

North Carolina has no such city or county tax above the State tax. One of the reasons I moved to NC.

[denverbill]

10. Just so you know, Obama and many Democrats wanted to keep the lower SS withholdings.

Republicans did not. We did not get everything we wanted.

[JDPriestly]

84. I don't want the lower withholdings. I paid the higher taxes and am now on Social Security.

Lower holdings mean a weaker system and give politicians more excuses to pull tricks like the chained CPI or lower monthly benefits.

Between $1200 and $1300 for an elderly person on the average means a lot of people receive less. It's not that much for seniors to live on as it is.

[travis_mcgee]

112. Because the "holiday" was speeding up SS's path to bankruptcy.

If you want something, you have to pay for it. You support SS? Pay for it.

You punks all want the government to do everything, but want someone else to pay for it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

147. +1.

[Freddie Stubbs]

118. Wouldn't doing that underfund Social Security?

[dixiegrrrrl]

180. Yes, and that was the point.

Decreasing revenues going into Soc. sec. is one way the Repugs had of killing off the fund faster.

[Ratteau]

185. Repugs want to kill off the fund? Really?

Are you seriously saying the point of the SS tax holiday was a Republican effort to "kill off the fund faster"? The tax holiday was passed in 2010. You might want to take a second look at who controlled *both* houses on Congress and the Presidency at that time.

[fingusernames]

195. Indeed

The payroll tax holiday was a part of the stimulus plan, to put money into the pockets of people. Per an interview with Larry Summers, of the Obama administration, speaking about the holiday:

Q So the only reason that the payroll tax holiday will provide more stimulus is because it’s twice as large. Making Work Pay was capped. Why didn’t you preserve Making Work Pay? Is it because, as the President said some months ago, it’s just a kind of invisible tax cut and didn’t provide any political benefit for the White House?

MR. SUMMERS: No, it came out of the process of compromise with the Republicans who were more attracted to the payroll tax holiday concept, and that was a proposal that, as had been coming out of here, we had been giving considerable thought to in the context of the President’s budget.

It was a bi-partisan concept, proposed by Republicans and adopted by Democrats.

[Bake]

11. But hey, everybody says it's a good thing!

My paycheck just went down. So did my wife's. This hurts us. But everybody says it's a good thing, so I guess we just suck it up and get used to it.

I call it a tax increase on the middle class. I wonder what they call it. Somebody on this thread called it a "premium." Nope. It's a tax, and it just went up.

Bake

[NCTraveler]

13. I really can't handle the decrease right now.

It's not like I am rolling in the money. Really felt like my taxes went up when I opened my paycheck and it was smaller.

[Amonester]

15. The works of tearorists in the house, once more. nt

[Sekhmets Daughter]

26. 2% smaller....

[napi21]

32. I don't want to make light of this situation, but the increase oin deductions is 2%!

Unless of course you make over $400,000. Then your taxes DOD gp up. We're really not talking about a olot of money here.

[NCTraveler]

40. Pretty sizable chunk of change. Almost a weeks worth of groceries.

And I am in no way making lots of money.

[travis_mcgee]

113. Did you vote for the Ryan plan to preserve SS?

If not, then you voted to preserve the status quo. And the status quo was hurtling even faster towards bankruptcy with the 2% payroll tax holiday.

[NCTraveler]

119. "hurtling even faster towards bankruptcy "

That's funny. Towards bankruptcy.

[travis_mcgee]

122. Why is that funny?

Do you think that the government can't go broke? SS is already on the border of being in the red. Where do you think that the money is going to come from when it does?

Do you think that the money you pay in now will be there for you when you retire?

[NCTraveler]

135. That is nothing but a wore out rw meme.

It's going bankrupt my ass. Take your shit elsewhere.

[skinnydipinacid]

160. Not only an ignorant notion...

... but I think you've quantum leaped into a whole new dimension of stupid there.

[NCTraveler]

171. Cute Travis, cute. Have a nice day. nt.

[Soft Tips]

186. The Debt-Paying Generation Speaks

"Glad I learned all of those Ramen Noodle recipes while I was in college, 'cuz I'm gonna need them again when I 'retire.'" - RJ Caster
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-beach/national-debt-and-youth-vote_b_1383704.html

[Ms. Toad]

133. It shouldn't impact each paycheck that much -

are you talking about your salary for the year?

(for $30,000 the weekly drop should be around $11.53)

[NCTraveler]

134. That is $46 a month.

I do consider that sizeable and close to a weeks worth of groceries for someone living by themselves.

[Ms. Toad]

151. I was just trying to figure out your time frame.

since you didn't say how long a pay period would be a week's worth of groceries. A single paycheck just received (how this thread started) shouldn't be short a week's worth of groceries - since it only covers 3 days in 2013 and if you just received a paycheck that was short a week's worth of groceries, something else was going on that you should explore.

[NCTraveler]

168. Payroll is taxed on the day the check is written.

In other words, if the paycheck is dated 1/2/2013, it will all be taxed at 2013 rates. Not 5 days at the 2012 rates, and 2 days at 2013 rates.

[Ms. Toad]

177. Makes sense.

I didn't check it specifically - but thinking about when income is taxed, all of my December 2012 income is taxed in 2013 (I get paid monthly) - so FICA is probably the same. But most people aren't paid monthly - so it is likely (at most) 2 weeks worth of FICA payments; still likely less than a week's worth of groceries additional deductions from the single check.

[NCTraveler]

172. Wanted to add. I do see what you are saying.

I was not specific that I was talking about pay for a full month. It is about a weeks worth of groceries for a months pay. Not a weeks pay. I wasn't clear on that.

[Puzzledtraveller]

139. Not to mention the prices are higher than two years ago for a variety of goods

food, gas, natural gas.

[former9thward]

50. Its $1000 a year if you make $50,000.

Maybe $1000 is not alot for you.

[SoCalNative]

68. It's not a lot

considering I want to actually be able to collect my SS pension when I retire.

[former9thward]

166. This had nothing to do with collecting SS when you retire.

The 2% was being made up by the General fund.

[Ratteau]

187. That would be nice...

but don't count on it in the event that it's not there when you need it. Those that are irresponsible and don't save some now could wind up with nothing if they planned to rely upon SS, should not expect the rest of us to bail them out.

Me? I wish they'd offer a public option on SS. I'd opt out in a minute and they could keep what I've contributed the past 27 years. You get better growth by putting your money in a checking account.

[napi21]

71. That's about $20/week. It's nothing to sneeze at, but

@ $50/m a year, it sure shouldn't breaki you either!

Many prople make a lot less than that and live just fine.

[JDPriestly]

86. $1000 divided by 52 weeks is about $20 per week.

Doesn't buy a lot of groceries. But it isn't nothing.

The Social Security and Medicare taxes do come back to you and when you really need it, so it isn't smart to complain about them.

[Honeycombe8]

94. $86 a month is a lot. That would pay for....

Groceries for a week, as someone said.

More than what I pay for parking every month, after my employer's contribution to that.

A new computer after a year.

A new quality pair of shoes...every month.

Months of my copay for my hormones.

A new thick coat (on sale or at discount place)

It would pay for what I spend on my dogs every month...food, vitamins, treats.

BUT, it's necessary to keep SS healthy, to make sure there are enuf funds to pay for the benefits.

[JDPriestly]

99. It isn't a pittance, but someone earning $50,000 per year is doing a lot better

than the average person on Social Security receiving $1200-1300 per month.

[d_r]

101. I know I would like to get a 2% raise

[Puzzledtraveller]

124. I feel your pain and will be soon when I get my check

I barely, if not even barely make ends meet and I work full time, live within my means and have to pay things late every month, this will hurt.

[dragonlady]

22. If it makes you feel any better

those of us who are self-employed pay twice as much out of our earnings (we are both employer and employee).

[jberryhill]

28. Remind me of the Republican proposal to extend the temporary 2% reduction

[travis_mcgee]

114. Wait, I thought that tax cuts were eeeevil!

SS is going bankrupt. But the payroll tax holiday was bringing that day forward.

If you want to preserve SS in its current form, payroll taxes will have to go up, dramatically.

[Coyotl]

145. Actually, you are quite wrong, doubly wrong even.

1.) SS is not going bankrupt at all.
2.) Payroll taxes will NOT have to go up.

All that is needed is to adjust the cap. That will happen as soon as the stupid slime Rs in the House are in the minority.

On edit. Enjoy your short stay!

[lonestarnot]

14. Looks like someone didn't prepare. What about temporary holiday didn't you understand?

Dugh.

[NCTraveler]

17. Guessing this is sarcasm. Normally I can easily detect it. nt.

[ieoeja]

24. Probably not sarcasm. The holiday was only two years.

Complaining about the holiday expiring on schedule is a bit like taking out a credit card with 0% interest for 6 months then complaining when the interest goes to 18% after 6 months.

When your social security taxes went down two years ago, did you think it was permanent?

Hope you enjoyed the extra money for awhile. But the holiday is over, and things are back to normal.


Given that the income tax holiday was a lot larger, I guess you would have been in a ton of trouble had the Democrats not just made that permanent. I assume you make much less money now as it certainly would have been foolish building such dependance on temporary income.

I'm so old I remember when the Democratic Party was economically responsible. Now they are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to not paying the bill. We have cut taxes a couple dozen times in my career. And every cut has led to more debt and a worsening economy. I miss the old party.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

27. Amen...

That Dems were fiscally responsible was one of my original attractions to the party.

[NCTraveler]

41. Were any other cuts set to expire. So no, it wasn't expected.

Many temporary cuts were just extended. I am sure you and lonestar are aware of that when making your arguments. You say they were temporary, so it is expected that they went up. Yet I just watched many temporary items get extended. I do understand the loss is not felt by some.

[travis_mcgee]

116. Yes, all of the Bush tax cuts were set to expire

And your income taxes would have also gone up. Lucky for you, the eeeevil Bush tax cuts were made permanent for 98% of income earners in the fiscal cliff deal.

[NCTraveler]

121. But should I have expected them to expire and planned on it.

That was what was inferred with the post to which I was replying. Lucky, I doubt it.

[Puzzledtraveller]

142. You will find little sympathy here, it is less a trait these days of the left

Sadly. As I see many become like what they despise, it's a version of the "I got mine" attitude, except it's the "I'm doing okay, therefore most people must be" attitude.

[LWolf]

16. I won't be happy taking less money home.

I never wanted to take home more money by cutting what I was paying into SS.

I'd like to have the paycuts I've taken over the last 5 years to be restored.

COLA in my contract went away first. Not just future colas, but the cola we'd negotiated the previous spring. Disappeared; paycheck smaller.

Next the # of days in the contract was cut. Every year. This year, it amounts to fewer days of work. Since I'm paid a daily rate, per day worked, that hurts.

Then, 2 years ago, all step and column increases, based on years worked and further education, were frozen. We're all 2 years behind.

At first, I made up a little of the difference by taking on "extra duty." That's where you work extra hours outside of the contractual day for a stipend or an hourly rate. The stipend or hourly rate, rather than earning an amount equal to what it would be worth in the contractual day, pays about HALF of what I make if you divide my daily rate by the 8 hours I'm contracted to work to earn it. No time and a half for overtime, here. I have to work unpaid overtime just to finish my contractual duties, since they can't be finished in a contractual day. Add the "extra duties," and I'm at work 11 or 12 hours a day, every work day, and end up working on days off to try to keep up. I went in and worked a full day for nothing on New Year's Day so that I wouldn't be overwhelmed on Monday.

This year, I lost a stipend for an extra duty; it's become quite competitive, since so many of us haven't been able to make mortgages with reduced paychecks for the last few years, and those carroty stipends are being spread around.

So...I took on OTHER extra duties to try to make my own mortgage, and discovered that THIS year, they have cut the hourly rate for some of those duties in half. The same job, 50% of the previous pay.

I'd like to get a full contract, and full contractual pay, back. Then I wouldn't have to worry about extra duties. They'd have to hire people at decent wages to get those jobs done, instead of paying us less and less for more and more.

I WANT to pay full SS. At the rate I'm going, I'm not going to have much else to depend on when I retire in another decade or so. I'm going to need it.

[NCTraveler]

19. I hope in the end it all works out for you.

I hope you are able to get a full contract. Sorry that hope isn't much.

[LWolf]

169. Thanks for the good thoughts. nt

[Sekhmets Daughter]

30. That is one awful story.

I hope things improve for you soon.

[LWolf]

170. I do, too. Thanks. nt

[travis_mcgee]

117. If you keep voting for policies that harm business...

... then expect more of the same.

[HughBeaumont]

131. Oh look, we have a "success punisher" belcher.

What we're doing with the wealthy and their businesses in this country are light years . . . read, LIGHT YEARS away from "punishment". Your vaunted "business" is getting away with murder in America. The wealthy that run corporations are richer than ever and income inequality is WORSE than ever. What makes a peasant carry water for their "betters"? Think you'll BE them someday?

[jpak]

137. I vote for policies that hurt RW douchebags

expect more of the same...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

150. Go fuck yourself, freeper

Guess you get bored sucking RimJob all day?

[LWolf]

167. "Voting for policies that harm business."

[ORINOCO]

20. Its OK

Your taxes went up because the leaders need to dig us out of this criminal deficit hole we are in which has been caused because taxes were too low during the Bush years. Everyone has to help by spreading the wealth around a little. Power to the correct people!

[Xipe Totec]

37. Welcome to DU!

[leftstreet]

46. LOL

Power to the correct people!

Indeed

Welcome to DU

[Amonester]

21. If the tearorists succeeded to make you struggle too much, maybe DUers could...

help

Dunno what else to say.

Only hating these tearorists more.

[madfloridian]

23. Actually if that cut continued it would change the very nature of Social Security..

as self-funding.

From last year, several links:

Payroll tax cuts "rob the poor to feed the rich"...will harm those already on Social Security.

From Nancy Altman of Social Security Works:

"Given that the present Congress is unwilling to roll back the Bush tax cuts and raise even a nickel in additional taxes from millionaires," she says, "it's hard to believe that a more conservative Congress, in an election year, will increase the payroll tax from 4.2 to 6.2 percent — a 30 percent increase — on the very first dollar earned by virtually every single worker in the country." She thinks the cut could well become permanent.

If that happens, Social Security’s long-term shortfall could double over 75 years, she says, and political pressure to downsize the program could mount. That could lead to converting Social Security from a universal insurance program to a welfare program, with the numerous drawbacks of programs for the poor, including low public support. If this scenario unfolds, says Altman, "it's good-bye, Social Security."

[AZ Progressive]

51. Just to be clear, the holiday actually decreased SS taxes to 10.4% from 12.4%

Your employer, even through the payroll tax holiday, has paid 6.2% tax on your income for Social Security. Sole Proprieters / small businesses owners have to pay both the employer and employee sides, which means that they have to pay the full 12.4% in income for social security tax / insurance now (and were paying 10.4% for the past 2 years.)

[madfloridian]

100. It's worth it for the cause.

I never expected that Medicare and Social Security would be put into play as political pawns. I just assumed they were, as Obama called them...."sacred cows". I believed they should remain sacred cows.

I remember my grandmother talking about the Great Depression years before SS was enacted in 1935. There had been no recourse till then.

Well, actually, I never thought I would see public education on the chopping block by both parties, so I am getting a lot of surprises lately.

[PETRUS]

102. Worth it? I don't know.

I understand your point about how opponents of Social Security could (and would, I'm sure) argue about funding problems if we continued the payroll tax holiday. But, we are looking at around $100 billion dollars less in spending money in the hands of working Americans in the context of an economy already suffering from lack of demand. Without counteracting stimulus, that's a spoonful of austerity that is likely to result in the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs -- which sucks all by itself and will reduce tax collections anyway. We've been placed in a no win situation.

[wryter2000]

59. Thank you

I figure I'm losing $936/year or $36 per payday. That's not insignificant, but I don't want to lose Social Security as a program. I want to collect for a few years.

[Warpy]

29. You were on holiday

You OASDI taxes went down for a few months. Now they've gone back up. That's what you're seeing. Your income tax didn't go up, just the bite Social Security takes.

Yeah, it hurts. It always hurts when money we think would always be there isn't any more. However, this was only temporary money.

And yeah, it hurts you a lot more since it cuts into what you need to live on. Mr. Billionaire isn't going to feel his 3% income tax hike, it's chump change. That won't stop him from shrieking how poor he is, though.

This wasn't part of the fiscal bluff deal. It was just the end of a holiday.

[NCTraveler]

42. Thanks for the reasoned reply.

I understand. Just kind of came at the wrong time. I think some people see 2% and say that it's not much. It is more than I expected. I will be fine, just kind of annoyed.

[slackmaster]

31. Don't worry about it. It's not really a tax.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022110863

[Trajan]

58. OK ... I get your right wing gun philosophy ....

But when you seem to also support Conservative tax policy ...

I am running out of words to place in 'but he supports Liberal policies such as "____", "_____" and "_____"

I have noted your right wing slant ever since you came here ..... I argued with you regarding gun policies years ago, and recognized your right wing stance .... Now that it is clear you don't seem to support Democratic party positions regarding taxation, I have to ask: Where is it that your interests and the interests of Liberals and/or Democrats intersect ?

I think some honesty is in order ..... Aren't we tired of the pretenders ?

[slackmaster]

144. Whuh?

[OhZone]

34. im confused

You sound like you already have a check for this month... Its only the third

[NCTraveler]

43. Yes, I do have a check for this month. By tomorrow, everyone paid weekly will.

Not sure why you think they wouldn't.

[Bluenorthwest]

155. I have scant experience with 'weekly payroll' jobs. So please explain how and why you are paid

in advance of services? How do they deal with those who quit during a month if they pay you all on the first for that month's work? I would have thought that on the first week of this month, you'd get paid for the last part of last month.
Please explain why they pay so many for things they have not yet done?

[onethatcares]

35. why did they deduct more

when the law just went into effect two days ago? It's not retroactive into 2012.

[Freddie]

36. Any IRS changes are effective with "wages paid in 2013"

Even if your pay period ended in 2012 the only thing the IRS cares about is the negotiable date on the check.
It's possible that your check was based on a federal tax (not FICA) table that was issued in Dec. which was presuming that ALL the Bush tax cuts would go away. The IRS issued new tables just today with the voted-on tax rates. Your employer should use the newest table for your next check and possibly your fed tax withholding will be reduced. Don't mind my talking shop I'm a payroll administrator.

[geek_sabre]

95. Regardless of any bill passage, the holiday expired Dec 31st

I'm a teacher, and I'm paid biweekly year round, so my Jan 2 paycheck is for 2013, not 2012. In the past three years, I've become used to my first paycheck of the year being screwed up, since congress can't seem to do their job before the winter recess. My employer "assumes the worst," and usually by the second pay period something passes, and future paychecks are adjusted, if needed.

[Freddie]

105. If you got a check dated Jan. 2

Your federal tax (not FICA) was probably over-withheld as the IRS issued tables in Dec. assuming that all of the Bush tax cuts were going away. New tables were issued yesterday with the actual rates that were passed by Congress so your 2nd pay in 2013 should have the correct federal withholding.

[ecstatic]

38. Does anyone think congress will extend the payroll tax holiday at some point?

I know the increase isn't that much (for me it will be approx. $92 less per month--which now that I think about it, is a hell of a lot of money!), but it's really the principle that bothers me. Republicans didn't care one bit about the payroll tax holiday expiring, but they fought tooth and nail to protect the top 1 and 2%.

[NCTraveler]

44. It is more than I was expecting.

Mine was less than that per month, but still a good chunk. 2% sounds small. $92 isn't small.

[PoliticAverse]

76. At the end most Democrats and Republicans wanted it to expire, only President Obama was

really pushing it to continue.

[New Proletariat]

39. A Good Start

Hopefully this is just the beginning. I am tired of being poor and low class just because I wasn't born into privilege. I wish the government would confiscate property and equalize pay for all. Then we wouldn't have to worry about this. We would be provided for and taken care of in our old age on an equal basis, as we should be!!

[Amonester]

45. Welcome to DU. :)

The gov. could go confiscate all those off-shore bank coffers where the money is hidden.

And if these foreign bank owners were to refuse cooperating, it should put all these drone ships to good use for once.

Too bad it won't ever happen (or I don't think so).

[bigapple1963]

48. so you are advocating an offensive war

to steal other countries' resources?

Is that a progressive position?

[Amonester]

60. No.

It's not a progressive position.

Why even ask if it's one?

Although hidding money away is as old as money itself, I am not advocating something that will never happen.

[DonViejo]

49. I don't think New Proletariat will be around DU

too long.

[New Proletariat]

77. Interesting...

threat.... :/

[DonViejo]

130. Not a threat at all...

just a statement of thought triggered by your comment.

[OldDem2012]

53. So, are you taking any bets?....

....on how long you last on DU?

[New Proletariat]

70. Not taking any bets....

[blcartwright]

73. if everyone received the same

regardless of whether they worked for it or not, then how many would bother working for it? Once they stop working, where does the govt go to confiscate that which they would give to you? As they used to joke in the Soviet Union "I pretend to work, they pretend to pay me". Everyone was poor and low class, except members of the party, who were more equal than the others.

[hunter]

75. I guess we should just let the people who can't find work starve or die of exposure.

Great philosophy you've got there...

[blcartwright]

81. the point was

if more work never brings more in return, there is no incentive for people to work. Of course we need a safety net but if there's no for achieving little will be achieved.

[hunter]

90. It's my experience that most people want to work.

So much so that many work for abusive employers who pay less than subsistence wages.

That's wrong.

The minimum wage needs to be increased and welfare benefits ought to be generous enough to compete directly with crappy, abusive employers.

Every last person ought to be able to say "Take this job and shove it!" without fear of starvation or homelessness.

[blcartwright]

104. I agree

and I always want the employee to have to leverage to walk away from a bad situation.

Employers need incentives to treat workers fairly, and workers need incentives/rewards to maximize productivity. If you work your ass off, but your coworker sleeps the shift away and gets paid the same as you, how long is it before you either kick his ass or slack off yourself? If someone is not rewarded for their work they will start to lose desire. This is abusive if done by an employer, but no less so if it's by govt mandate (pay everyone the same)

_______________________

As employees we are selling our labor. How much is that labor worth? If someone is doing $5 worth of work but the govt says to pay that person $8, there's an increased chance the person will lose their job. Too high of a minimum wage can then cost jobs.

It's up to us to make our labor worth as much as possible. If anyone else off the street can do the same job with little or no training, why would an employer want to pay anything more than minimum?

I made $3.50 an hour delivering pizzas and flipping burgers to pay for college, then got a $4.82/hr ($10k/yr) job doing data entry in a bank. When I had an interview for a job in my field, I told them I was making $5/hr.

I've been with the company for 27 years now and make 7x that in the same job description. I know more about computers than my coworkers and have been given responsibilities. Now I'm 53, but over the past 5 years I've taught myself database programming. Even tonight I found (through LinkedIn) a website that has free books, downloaded a couple to brush up on my probability & statistics and learn some new programming techniques. All the data, software & instructional materials I've found free on the web.

[ReasonedThoughts]

191. Time Well Spent

blcartwright I applaud you for investing in yourself over the years to be a more valuable employee. It looks as though your investments have paid off and have been recognized by your employer. How many others on this board who are either unemployed, underemployed or not making the money they believe they should have done what you have done and invested in themselves?

Robert Kiyosaki who wrote the Rich Dad, Poor Dad book series has always said that "the only difference between the rich and poor is how they decide to spend their free time". You have taken the initiative to improve yourself and have been rewarded for that. Congratulations!

[FlowerGurl]

107. Every last person does have the ability to say "Take this job and shove it"

If you don't like or want your job, everyone has the right to go look for another position, or start your own business. The problem is that the employees that do have excellent work ethics usually do well or preplan and look for an employer that is more appreciative, and the ones that don't have stellar work ethics say "take this job and shove it" prior to ensuring they have alternative employment. Why should someone have to make sure you aren't starving or homeless because you don't like your job and decided to quit before you had a new one?

[blcartwright]

108. 25 years ago when I moved to the DC area

it was because of a lack of jobs back home in Pa. There were lots of us in northern Va, and what I heard from employers was that they liked hiring people from our area because we appreciated having a job. Growing up in a steel town where layoffs were too common, you learned from your parents to never quit a job until you had something new lined up. The people from the DC area grew up with plentiful jobs and seemed to have no problem giving minimal effort, as they knew that even if they were fired they could get something else right away.

[New Proletariat]

78. Inheritance tax?

It would be interesting to crunch the numbers. Would a 100% estate tax do away for the need for an income tax?

[blcartwright]

87. I don't think so

even if there was no exemption for the inheritance tax. 2013 fed income tax revenues expected to be $1.7 trillion http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/fed_revenue_2013USrn I have to think that's more than the net worth of everyone who died in 2012.

Plus, losing 100% of assets at death would be a great incentive for people to do something else with the money - spend it before they die or give it away under the table. The worst problem is that many of the assets are not cash but homes & businesses - survivors would have to sell family homes & business to pay the tax, some of which happens now but would be greatly exacerbated.

[dpibel]

89. Isn't it fun when they talk to themselves?

This little subthread has had three posters who chose this as the place to make their debut.

What an amazing coincidence!

[SammyWinstonJack]

154. Who left the freakin' door open?

speaking of low class

[kenny blankenship]

47. Had to pay for permanent taxcuts for rich professionals somehow.

Barack Obama says HELLO!

(standby: in two months we get the rest of the bill)

[customerserviceguy]

55. Well said

The folks making minimum wage got only a few hundred bucks, while those at or over the cap got a couple of thousand dollars.

The Making Work Pay credit made much more sense for ordinary working people.

[travis_mcgee]

126. What on Earth are you talking about?

What "tax cuts for rich professionals" do you mean? The fiscal cliff legislation locked in the Clinton-era rates for individuals making over $400k, and married couples making $450k (which might lead a lot of high-earning married couples to get divorced), and permanently locked in the Bush tax cuts for everyone else.

Btw, SS doesn't come from the general treasury fund. What makes you think that income tax cuts have anything to do with it?

[magical thyme]

52. That seems odd. Wouldn't a paycheck received right now

reflect earnings for 2012? So wouldn't the old rates still be in effect?

Ok, I've just read that you are paid weekly and that the drop was almost a week's grocery money. Still, at most 3 days of this check would reflect a change for this tax year, so you would only be seeing about half of the increase...at most.

If you made minimum wage (what is that now, $7 and change) full time you'd be grossing about $300/week. A 2% increase would be $6.00/week...hardly grocery money.

If you make, say, $15.00 hour, full time you'd gross $600/week and your 2% increase would be $12/week. Still not a week's groceries.

If you spend $25/week on groceries (pretty tight budget at today's prices), you'd need to be earning more than $30/hour and grossing $1250/week.

It's not making sense. Are you sure there isn't some other change reflected in your paycheck that has nothing to do with the end of the tax holiday?

[NCTraveler]

56. No. The date on the check is what matters.

That is when it is consedered to have been earned. When it is paid out.

[magical thyme]

57. even so, it's hard to believe it's that big a change

with a low income, unless you eat a freakishly small amount of food.

If you made minimum wage (what is that now, $7 and change) full time you'd be grossing about $300/week. A 2% increase would be $6.00/week...hardly grocery money.

If you make, say, $15.00 hour, full time you'd gross $600/week and your 2% increase would be $12/week. Still not a week's groceries.

If you spend $25/week on groceries (pretty tight budget at today's prices), you'd need to be earning more than $30/hour and grossing $1250/week.

It's not making sense. Are you sure there isn't some other change reflected in your paycheck that has nothing to do with the end of the tax holiday?

[NCTraveler]

62. $24 a month might not be grocery money to you.

But it is to soeone making minimum wage.

[customerserviceguy]

54. It's that much less that the deficit goes up for Social Security

The holiday was funded by a transfer of money from the general fund to the Social Security Administration. Since the general fund doesn't cover all of its expenses by taxes raised, some of that money was borrowed, about a third of it.

At least that's ending. Of course, the baby boomers are still coming of either regular or early retirement age, and we will indeed need other things to shore up the system.

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. Nothing, it's just a dream ...

go back to sleep.

I find it highly unlikely anyone posting on DU, let alone someone with close to 1,000 posts, would be sincere in that question.

[jberryhill]

64. How did you get your first 2013 paycheck on Thursday, January 3rd?

What pay period did that cover?

Do you get paid every two days?

[chrisau214]

69. The Date on the Check Is What Matters

The dates worked are irrelevant.

[Bluenorthwest]

157. That is simply not true. Tax rates are counted from the time and place you did the work, not

from the time or place the check gets cut for that work. Yes. The dates worked are the only thing that is relevant.
This OP is claiming to be paid in advance and taxed in reverse, and that is confusing stuff.

[blcartwright]

74. money show up in ym bank abt 7 am tomorrow

but I got statement from my employer today. I'm $112 shorter than with the holiday.

[dflprincess]

80. How often are you paid?

And, are you sure your state or local withholding didn't go up as well?

[blcartwright]

85. paid every two weeks

just checked my pay stub vs spreadsheet I keep, FICA rate was only one that changed. Pa state remains 3.07%, no change in Fed income tax or Medicare (1.45%).

Any pay rate raise would come next check.

[dflprincess]

92. Did you check the math?

I was fiddling around calculating what my difference will be so I'm not surprised (looks to be about $53.08/check) and so I started trying figure out what would make such a big difference for you .

Even if you made the 2013 limit of $113,700/year getting paid every two weeks the 2% increase comes out to $87.46 per check. (113,700*.02 = $2,274/26 = $87.46).

Sorry, I'm a data analyst, I can't help myself.

[blcartwright]

98. the math for my SS deduction?

$347.54 was withheld. At 4.2% it would be abt $235. Yeah, I make a lot, but I did start at the company, in the same job description, making $5/hr in 1985.

I work in data science, in an engineering related field, but might be moving into sports management.

[Riley18]

65. I lose around $80 a month, but I know the

money goes back to SS. However, the unfortunate part is that I did not get any raises in the meantime. Living in Floriduh I actually lost 3% to Rick Scott. So public workers in this state will actually be down 5% of pay.

[RebelOne]

67. You will be thankful when you retire and receive your social security checks.

I paid into Social Security for over 50 years and I am thankful that I did pay social security taxes because that is what I have to live on now.

[LoneMarauder]

91. I'm 37

I'll never see a social security check.

[Little Star]

176. If you people keep helping to elect republicans that is almost guaranteed.

[RomneyLies]

72. See post 87. eom

[JDPriestly]

82. You are being asked to pay the Social Security tax that you used to pay before Obama

gave a payroll tax vacation.

Your tax did not go up. It was artificially low there for a while.

You will get it back when you need it even more than you do now. Don't worry. Stay happy and healthy. You will get it back.

[doc03]

88. For all those bitching and whining about the 2%

increase in the payroll tax. Do you folks understand the word (temporary)? I retired in 2009
I paid 100% of my payroll taxes for 46 years in order to retire and get a SS check. If you all want to retire someday and you expect to receive SS you have to fund the program. If you don't like paying the 2% why don't we just give you the other 4.2% and just do away with SS.
I know for some people 2% is a lot of money. If you made $10 an hour you have received a total of $832 over the last two years that you otherwise would not have.

[New Proletariat]

93. Don't give them the oportunity...

...to take "the other 4% and do away with SS." That is exactly what some would like to do!

[doc03]

96. I am just so disgusted I can't even make any more comments n/t

[green for victory]

103. Welcome to DU! stoopid hurtz i hurd /no further text follows after this period.

[SammyWinstonJack]

158. All this bitching and whining is why this tax holiday was the dumbest idea, period.

Stupid, stupid, STUPID!

[RandiFan1290]

106. You are supposed to SAVE that $$ for your retirement. Not spend it

[Shrek]

109. Hey, National Review linked your post

I guess they lurk here.

http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot

[RandiFan1290]

115. It's probably their OP

[CJCRANE]

153. Please see post #149

I think the OP is being somewhat disingenuous.

[Puzzledtraveller]

120. Same here, I will find out on the 15th, not looking forward to it.

[jpak]

136. The Delicate Flowers cannot bear to pay for Social Security

Clue: SS in NOT an "entitlement" it is a benefit you pay for...

The Obama payroll tax cut was only supposed to be temporary.

Get over it.

yup

[Puzzledtraveller]

140. I am a food stamp and medicaid caseworker

You think this doesn't hurt people, and you seem insenstive to maybe people not knowing about this but many people don't, many people do not spend all their time on boards like this or watching cable news.

[jpak]

141. I think it didn't hurt people before the temporary tax holiday was enacted

and I think it won't hurt people now.

It strengthens Social Security.

That is what you pay for...

Get a clue.

yup

[CJCRANE]

149. Your OP seemed just a little too faux-naif so I searched the archives

and look what I found, another OP by you on Dec 20th titled "The Fiscal Cliff "Cliff Notes":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022037899

Excerpt:

Taxes

1)Bush Tax Cuts. About 203 billion.

2)2009 Stimulus - Includes expansion of Earned Income Tax Credit, American Opportunity tax credit. Cost of about 10 billion.

3)Payroll Tax Holiday - Reduced payroll tax on employees from 6.2 to 4.2 percent. Cost of about 115 billion.

4)Alternative Minimum Tax - Would not be patched as normally done. Cost of about 114 billion.

5)Extenders - Corporate tax breaks that are routinely extended. Cost of about 109 billion.

[greatauntoftriplets]

152. Good catch!

[MjolnirTime]

161. Nice try, troll.

[Ganja Ninja]

163. Buck up!

You'll get it all back plus interest when you start collecting Social Security.

And by the way, that money coming out of your check proves that Social Security is not a "free ride" or welfare of any kind.

[AZ Progressive]

189. For some of us that is in 30+ years

And thats given that it will survive the assault by republicans and third way democrats.

[Ash_F]

164. Thread title is attracting a lot of Freeper drive-byes

Obama wanted to extend the holiday but house pubs weren't having it. REPUBLICANS raised your taxes freepers!



Remember that.

[donbrown54]

179. Money owed to the Social Security Trust

As of the latest report from Social Security Trust Fund the General Fund owes 2,596,371,000,000 dollars to the Social Security Trust Fund so it is in no way broke. You are now paying what you were supposed to. The tax was just suspended for a couple of years.

[L0oniX]

184. Elvis has left the building. n/t

[BanTheGOP]

188. RUSH LIMBAUGH just read this letter on air

Be careful what you write here. The Wingnuts are listening!!

Edit: If you noticed DU down for a couple of minutes around 1:20 pm eastern, that's because his cretins crashed the system looking for this.

[Rex]

200. They are so pathetically desperate that their traditional hate sites

FR and CC are given a pass!

Total failsauce!

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

190. Your takehome pay should be 2% less, in general

In 2012 as part of the stimulus there was a 2% decrease in the Soc Sec tax rate from6.2% TO 4.2%).
I say "in general" because you don't necessarily pay SS tax on all of your wages. Contributions to a Sec. 125 Plan such as a Flexible Spending Account (Sec. 125 Cafeteria Plan)reduce your SS taxable wages

[AZ Progressive]

192. BTW, I wonder how many people know that a total of 12.4% of their income goes toward SS

Most people will see their SS withholdings go up to 6.2%, but their employer has been paying another 6.2%, for a total of 12.4% for Social Security (and 10.4% for the past 2 years.) Now whether or not you believe that your employer would pay you 6.2% more if they wouldn't be paying for your SS is up to you. However, small business owners and sole proprieters / freelancers have to pay the full 12.4% of their income, and combined with medicare taxes, about 15% of their income now (and add that to federal income taxes and state income taxes.)

[Juan Nation]

199. 0. What happened that my SS withholdings in my paycheck just went up.

i just know that i am PISSED.

[Rex]

211. And who put them in debt? Republicans.

Not that facts matter to you in the least bit. That is so sad that your side needs DU to validate things for them. You are all lost little children that still think you can find your way out of the forest.

Pathetic. Back to the bridge with this one!

[Rex]

202. They are withholding a dollar more per paycheck for me

but FOR SOME REASON, I doubt the hate sites are interested in that as much as the sensationalism they can create with the OP.

[GeorgeGist]

203. You worked ONE-TWO day this year and your paycheck went down by an uncomfortable amount?

[Rex]

205. I like your bullshitometer!

[slackmaster]

204. I just got my first fortnightly paycheck for 2013. It's $113.08 less than my previous paycheck.

That's $2,940.08 less that I will be able to spend on discretionary purchases this year.

[Juan Nation]

210. fsdasadf

democrats are going to have to work PRETTY DAMN HARD TO GET MY VOTE IN THE FUTURE. IF IT'S EVEN POSSIBLE. MY GIRL AND I COMBINED ARE TAKING A HIT HERE.

[Rex]

212. How did you find this site?

Just curious.