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(34,179 posts)
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:49 AM Dec 2012

Let me throw some facts at you about this contrived crisis, the fiscal cliff.

There are some folks who are spreading disinformation about going over the fiscal cliff, claiming that going over the fiscal cliff will hurt the poor, take away food stamps and Medicare and such, that we would be sacrificing the poor if we don't do a deal now.

That is simply a lie, a complete and utterly stinking pile of cow manure.

Here are the facts:

Food stamps and Medicaid are shielded from sequestration, they will not be touched if we go over the fiscal cliff.

Medicare cuts will be cuts to providers, not patients.

The extension of the federal emergency extension of unemployment insurance is not part of the sequestration, but rather part of what is being put on, taken off, scrambled around the table of this grand bargain that is being foisted upon us. At this point we have no clue as to what is going to happen to it, but we do know that if it isn't part of the grand bargain, or if we do the smart thing and go off the cliff, Congress can take it in the new year, with a new Congress.

These cuts take place over a span of ten years, not all at once.

The various federal agencies are already considering putting off the sequestration cuts in order to allow the time and space for a new Congress to deal with these issues, so again, none of the sequestration cuts will take place right on January 2.

The only real issue that absolutely, positively has to be dealt with before the end of the year is the Alternative Minimum Tax patch. If that isn't dealt with, then the middle and upper middle class will be feeling some pain, not the poor and downtrodden.

Once again, we are seeing Third Way/DLC/neoliberal propaganda being spewed, trying to sacrifice all of our long term good for some short term, possible, maybe, gain for a few. They are trying to split liberals and the Democratic party, pitting the poor against the elderly. Don't fall for this propaganda bullshit.

Our best bet, for the poor, the elderly, all of us is, at this point, to go right off that cliff. Don't let anybody try to convince you otherwise.


43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Let me throw some facts at you about this contrived crisis, the fiscal cliff. (Original Post) MadHound Dec 2012 OP
K&R MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #1
Emphatic K&R! Thanks for the links (very informative) - n/t coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #2
K&R n/t whatchamacallit Dec 2012 #3
K/R. My neighbor ran out of unemployment benefits 2 weeks ago Autumn Dec 2012 #4
Most people don't know their options Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #9
That's because we haven't gone over the cliff yet. 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #31
The ThirdWayers are starting to sound downright silly here leftstreet Dec 2012 #5
Bingo, we have a winner. n/t 99Forever Dec 2012 #6
And the AMT patch could be extended in February. Lasher Dec 2012 #7
Once we are over this fiscal cliff talk Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #8
HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Dec 2012 #10
K&R Owl Dec 2012 #11
Posted to BuzzFlash WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #12
K&R! nt raouldukelives Dec 2012 #13
Except, Sadiedog Dec 2012 #14
K&R nt ProudProgressiveNow Dec 2012 #15
this is great info, Madhound. thank you!! WhaTHellsgoingonhere Dec 2012 #16
K&R FiveGoodMen Dec 2012 #17
K&R Thank you. forestpath Dec 2012 #18
K&R abelenkpe Dec 2012 #19
K&R! octoberlib Dec 2012 #20
K&R me b zola Dec 2012 #21
K, R & Thank you! Myrina Dec 2012 #22
You forgot John2 Dec 2012 #23
This is our best best to trim military fat that I've seen in a decade! Let's do it! grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #25
Charts to bolster this argument grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #24
"The cliff is the best deal Americans have on the table." harun Dec 2012 #27
K & R mac56 Dec 2012 #26
Thank you Hound for reminding the Board Wellstone ruled Dec 2012 #28
Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #29
Yep. progressoid Dec 2012 #40
I'd far prefer any hit be ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #41
Hear Hear, Mr. Hound! The Magistrate Dec 2012 #30
Agreed. bluerum Dec 2012 #32
K & R! dchill Dec 2012 #33
DURec PoliticalBiker Dec 2012 #34
Kick! octoberlib Dec 2012 #35
Honestly! ReRe Dec 2012 #36
Exactly. This is pure "shock doctrine" bullshit on the part of the unholy alliance bullwinkle428 Dec 2012 #37
Thanks, MadHound. nt bananas Dec 2012 #38
I opened this thread so I could rec it gollygee Dec 2012 #39
I'm 71, my wife is 64 and together we make under 30k, full speed ahead! WHEN CRABS ROAR Dec 2012 #42
100! n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #43


(45,120 posts)
4. K/R. My neighbor ran out of unemployment benefits 2 weeks ago
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:15 PM
Dec 2012

she received her food stamps and TANIF yesterday and will qualify for LEAP. People who run out of unemployment qualify for aid. People touting this part of the cliff are just spreading fear and disinformation.

Soar over the cliff.

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
9. Most people don't know their options
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:32 PM
Dec 2012

so they assume the worst without having the information on hand.



(31,849 posts)
31. That's because we haven't gone over the cliff yet.
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:02 PM
Dec 2012

report back on your neighbor on January 15th ... assuming there isn't a deal that reverses the Big S.


(27,720 posts)
7. And the AMT patch could be extended in February.
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:22 PM
Dec 2012

In that case taxpayers would have to file amended returns if the patch is extended after they file their 2012 taxes. I can think of no other downside to this scenario.


(9,933 posts)
19. K&R
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:14 PM
Dec 2012

Pretty sure democrats that are arguing third way talking points are older and well off and will not be effected by third way policies.



(2,730 posts)
23. You forgot
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:27 PM
Dec 2012

about the military cuts in the sequestrian. They are worried about cutting defense contractors and laying off defense workers. Along with the increased taxes, the sequestrian is worst for the GOP. President Obama promised the GOP would cave to defense people and he is more worried about them losing their jobs and becoming unemployed. The unemployement rate will rise due to the lost of defense jobs. Wall Street and the Defense Industry are very worried. That is why Romney said in the Debates, it was a bad deal for the GOP.

The Defense cuts gives the President a lot of leaverage on the GOP, but the problem is Obama doesn't seem to want to really cut back on the military. Seems like to me he wants to continue the neocon warmongering. You cut ther purser, then it will force the Democrats and Republicans to cut back on obligations to other countries. I think that is the wasteful spending and the sequestrian is a good thing. I'm waiting to see if the Republicans would really throw the Military Industrial Complex under the Bus?



(15,741 posts)
25. This is our best best to trim military fat that I've seen in a decade! Let's do it!
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:35 PM
Dec 2012

The defense jobs would be better replaced by jobs in green energy - jobs that contribute to and do not drain the economy like war does.

In other words, when you build a windmill, it continually returns money into the economy in the form of electricity, when you build a bomb, it blows up and is gone.



(15,741 posts)
24. Charts to bolster this argument
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:31 PM
Dec 2012

Remember how they screamed the economy would collapse if we didn't do these deals?

Fact is it was the deals that cratered the stock market!

The cliff is the best deal Americans have on the table.


(11,348 posts)
27. "The cliff is the best deal Americans have on the table."
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:58 PM
Dec 2012

Which is why it won't happen.

The American people are not in charge. The Corporations are and they want cuts to SS and Medicare, whcih is what they will get. If it doesn't improve Corporate profits, this Congress isn't going to waste their time discussing it.


Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
28. Thank you Hound for reminding the Board
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:59 PM
Dec 2012

about the Wall Street induced hype. People are being pounded by the so called media about all of the false narratives,not a single piece of the real truth. Notice how all the amp up in the last week,who met with the Rethugs 10 days ago,answer,Loyd Blankfine. End of story.

Notice today's meeting at the White House of the big business honcho's was not attended by President Obama. Something tells me that our President has made up his mind and is calling out the fake cliff for what it is. Harry Reid in a remark earlier this morning has stated that Boners plan B stunt won't even be brought up in the Senate.

Our President is monitoring his twitter and e-mails by the actions and reactions he has taken in the last 72 hours. The man has moved on to bigger issues,like spending quality time with his family.



(31,849 posts)
29. Well ...
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:59 PM
Dec 2012
The extension of the federal emergency extension of unemployment insurance is not part of the sequestration, but rather part of what is being put on, taken off, scrambled around the table of this grand bargain that is being foisted upon us.

That's not what Pew says about U/C.


Though they do say that the impact will vary among the states. When we go over the cliff we'll revert back to the fed/state sharing formula ... which will hurt the states with the highest unemployment rates.

And, look what else Pew says:

•Roughly 18 percent of federal grant dollars flowing to the states would be subject to the fiscal year 2013 across-the-board cuts under the sequester, according to the Federal Funds Information for States, including funding for education programs, nutrition for low-income women and children, public housing, and other programs.


So, we can pretend that going over the cliff is a "Shock Dotrine" cannard if we wish ... but doing so would not be based in fact. The most vulnerable amongst us WILL, as always, suffer immediately and the most.


(31,849 posts)
41. I'd far prefer any hit be ...
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:54 PM
Dec 2012

in the form of a chained CPI that would affect SS recipients over the course of 20 years ... if Conggress refuses to change the formula.


(328 posts)
34. DURec
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:43 PM
Dec 2012

Off the cliff is the only way.
Fuck making a deal before then
Feed the r's their own bag of bullshit... see how they like it.



(10,597 posts)
36. Honestly!
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:34 PM
Dec 2012

I am a PROGRESSIVELY LIBERAL DEMOCRAT. If I can go over the cliff with this much ease, I'm betting that others can too. Y'all need to take a break and get your breath. Have some spiked eggnog, or a draw yourself a glass of wine from the wine box, or brew a cup of pekoe, or a hot toddy. Something soothing, NOT black coffee. Grab a cold cloth, your drink, and ease into that easy chair, feet up, cold cloth on forehead. Take a big swig of your drink. Now RELAAAAAX. Let it all go. I'm not being condescending, I swear.

I know PO did or didn't do allot of things during his first term, and Rahm opened his big mouth and ridiculed us, and many didn't come out and vote in the midterm, (I did vote in 2010.) It was a rough first term. The economy was in the basement after 8 years of GW's cabal! But,that's all in the past. We have to go on, and realize it is a new day. Have a little faith. We mustn't listen to the propaganda...all this "cliff" business. "All we have to fear, is fear itself!" (FDR)
OK... everyone can come and beat me up now. Please don't kick too hard.

I'll just guzzle this beer to numb myself before you start in on me. Cheers!


(20,632 posts)
37. Exactly. This is pure "shock doctrine" bullshit on the part of the unholy alliance
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:38 PM
Dec 2012

of wing-nuts and Turd Wayers.

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