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Collimator

(1,641 posts)
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 12:45 PM Mar 26

You know what is NOT happening in Baltimore?

Nobody is shaking their heads and saying, "Yes, this is a terrible tragedy. But people make mistakes and maybe the pilot had mental health issues. But, hey, if you want to enjoy the freedom of buying lots of stuff inexpensively, you have to accept that these sorts of things will happen."

Nope. People are looking into what happened this morning with an eye to making sure that it doesn't happen again.

That's because it wasn't a mass shooting that took the lives of ordinary people just trying to get through an ordinary day.

58 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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You know what is NOT happening in Baltimore? (Original Post) Collimator Mar 26 OP
Good points. RW Twitter is awash with conspiracy theories underpants Mar 26 #1
Also blaming DEI. RockRaven Mar 26 #3
Yep. Thinks I forgot those. underpants Mar 26 #6
Alex Jones is saying it's the start of WWIII. sop Mar 26 #24
🙄 underpants Mar 26 #26
Yeah? Just wait until the cargo ship manufacturers get a lobbying group. Aristus Mar 26 #2
Hopefully... Think. Again. Mar 26 #4
Biden was asked during a presser Kennah Mar 26 #5
The bridge was onviously not designed Flatrat Mar 26 #7
No bridge is, because they cannot be. WhiskeyGrinder Mar 26 #8
For sure they can be designed to withstand these collisions HuskyOffset Mar 26 #17
I mean...it wouldn't be a bridge anymore. It would be an enormous barrier that could not serve any use. WhiskeyGrinder Mar 26 #19
Really? Disaffected Mar 26 #27
A basic understanding of scale and physics. WhiskeyGrinder Mar 26 #34
A non-answer but thanks anyhow. Disaffected Mar 26 #39
They can certainly have added protection EX500rider Mar 26 #36
There's alot bdamomma Mar 26 #29
Ah, I remember the calls for the WTC to be engineered to maxsolomon Mar 26 #38
The original was designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 departing JFK jmowreader Mar 28 #54
Same with this bridge. maxsolomon Mar 28 #55
Worse... jmowreader Mar 28 #58
Because bridge building isn't a popular retail industry, like gunz lindysalsagal Mar 26 #9
Tugboats don't control ships in the turning basin? Marcus IM Mar 26 #10
i rather think it's corporations' demand et tu Mar 26 #11
Only the leverage of where they spend their money. Marcus IM Mar 26 #14
American Consumers don't. American Corporations do. Ask the CEO how many containers paid for his Mercedes, his yacht, Ford_Prefect Mar 26 #12
American consumers don't demand low prices? Marcus IM Mar 26 #13
If it really worked that way the prices would actually be lower. the difference is the products cost the same but the Ford_Prefect Mar 26 #42
You are not making a good argument for rapacious capitalism. Marcus IM Mar 26 #43
Imagine.... Ford_Prefect Mar 26 #44
It's up to the US Coast Guard & local harbor Masters to decide when tugboats are required EX500rider Mar 26 #37
Consumers demand a fair price. Caliman73 Mar 26 #15
So, low wages are also partly to blame? Marcus IM Mar 26 #18
Capitalism is to blame. Caliman73 Mar 26 #22
I agree in general with your critique of capitalism. Marcus IM Mar 26 #32
It's only 52 years old, young for an east coast bridge Warpy Mar 26 #16
Ship lost power in the turning basin. No tugboats required. Marcus IM Mar 26 #20
Thanks Warpy Mar 26 #23
Yes. But without power or tugboats, disaster awaits. n/t Marcus IM Mar 26 #28
The ship lost power Tansy_Gold Mar 26 #21
This is From a Friend Deep State Witch Mar 26 #25
I agree with you. The ship lost power for some reason, and they lost control. SlimJimmy Mar 26 #47
THANK YOU ❗ Duppers Mar 27 #50
Ahem. If people did that, Alex Jones wouldn't have anything to say rpannier Mar 27 #51
No one is proposing banning large container ships? SYFROYH Mar 26 #30
Hell no! We demand cheap China made, no matter the consequences. Marcus IM Mar 26 #33
My mother took me back to college using this bridge RSherman Mar 26 #31
Place explosive mines around the perimeter of the bridge MichMan Mar 26 #35
Now *that's* creative problem solving! nt intrepidity Mar 26 #41
Best solution yet. maxsolomon Mar 28 #56
The only thing that stops a bad container ship is a good container ship IronLionZion Mar 26 #40
One thing that DOES help DFW Mar 26 #45
Yes, and thank goodness for that! ShazzieB Mar 27 #49
I don't believe the pilots made a mistake. SlimJimmy Mar 26 #46
Having been on ships snpsmom Mar 27 #52
Seems like theres a concerning number of ship issues lately quakerboy Mar 28 #53
The Sunshine Skyway Bridge now has "islands" around every support to prevent any other accidents. summer_in_TX Mar 26 #48
No one is talking about banning container ships Jose Garcia Mar 28 #57

underpants

(183,282 posts)
1. Good points. RW Twitter is awash with conspiracy theories
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 12:48 PM
Mar 26

From Black Swan to cyber attack to who knows since I last checked in

sop

(10,424 posts)
24. Alex Jones is saying it's the start of WWIII.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:43 PM
Mar 26

Edit to add link: https://www.rawstory.com/alex-jones-baltimore-bridge/

"'WW3 has already started': Alex Jones leads unhinged reaction to Baltimore bridge collapse"

Aristus

(66,656 posts)
2. Yeah? Just wait until the cargo ship manufacturers get a lobbying group.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 12:50 PM
Mar 26

They will no doubt advocate for a Constitutional amendment. "Cargo ship disasters being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of cargo ships to ram into bridges shall not be infringed."

It's only a matter of time...

Think. Again.

(9,337 posts)
4. Hopefully...
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 12:53 PM
Mar 26

...an appeals will lower any bond by 60% that the responsible party might have to pay to secure the expense they caused.

Kennah

(14,403 posts)
5. Biden was asked during a presser
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 12:56 PM
Mar 26

If the ship is at fault, then should not the ship's owner pay for it.

Biden emphasized the feds would pay for it to get it done. Pursuit of a lawsuit against the ship's owner will take years, decades, if it ever comes to pass. Because that's the glory of being on the corporate gift using the courts.

Flatrat

(50 posts)
7. The bridge was onviously not designed
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 01:09 PM
Mar 26

to survive a collision with a large container ship like the Dali, fully loaded.

There are other bridges vulnerable.

HuskyOffset

(892 posts)
17. For sure they can be designed to withstand these collisions
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:07 PM
Mar 26

They would just be considerably more expensive to build.

EX500rider

(10,904 posts)
36. They can certainly have added protection
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 03:15 PM
Mar 26

After the Sunshine Skyway accident in 1980 the bridge now has bridge support protection:

The question is why didn't other bridges get it, big ships losing power is not specific to Tampa Bay

bdamomma

(64,036 posts)
29. There's alot
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:54 PM
Mar 26

bridges that are faulty, but this was container ship that took it down.

The container ship was on its way to Sri Lanka. Massive amount of supplies.

maxsolomon

(33,516 posts)
38. Ah, I remember the calls for the WTC to be engineered to
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 03:20 PM
Mar 26

withstand the impact of a Commercial Jet Airliner at full speed with a full load of fuel.

jmowreader

(50,643 posts)
54. The original was designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 departing JFK
Thu Mar 28, 2024, 03:47 AM
Mar 28

There are two differences between that and what actually happened: the WTC planes were a lot bigger than a 707, and they were going faster. Physics is your enemy sometimes.

maxsolomon

(33,516 posts)
55. Same with this bridge.
Thu Mar 28, 2024, 02:16 PM
Mar 28

The design documents were finalized in 1972. Container Ships barely existed then, and none were close to the size of this beast.

jmowreader

(50,643 posts)
58. Worse...
Thu Mar 28, 2024, 02:34 PM
Mar 28

There are much larger ones than this. This ship is a “Neopanamax,” which is the biggest ship that’ll fit in the newest Panama Canal locks. It’s also one of the smallest ships used in trade - some of them can’t go through any canal on earth, and many of them can’t call on US ports because our ports aren’t deep enough.

Having said that, no one’s going to accuse a thousand-foot-long ship of being small. This thing is massive in ways that you and I couldn’t imagine when we were kids.

Marcus IM

(2,329 posts)
10. Tugboats don't control ships in the turning basin?
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 01:13 PM
Mar 26

Ships lose power, and no tugs controlling the turning basin and harbor exit?

Wow.

Tugboat operations cost money. Cost cutting rules the day.
American consumers demand it.

Ford_Prefect

(7,971 posts)
12. American Consumers don't. American Corporations do. Ask the CEO how many containers paid for his Mercedes, his yacht,
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 01:49 PM
Mar 26

his Island, or paid for his kids to get into Harvard and Cambridge? The crime in mass consumption is not the items people desire or borrow to pay for, it is those who have the Gold make all the rules and bend every law to keep it.

Ford_Prefect

(7,971 posts)
42. If it really worked that way the prices would actually be lower. the difference is the products cost the same but the
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 04:40 PM
Mar 26

labour and regulatory costs are far lower elsewhere.

Remind me once again how much the CEOs and corporations paid in infrastructure supporting taxes last year? How much in wages to US employees? How much for Employee healthcare, daycare, and such? The enormous profit margin they garner by off-shoring manufacturing allows them to still profit enough to buy the US House and Senate, and the Supreme Court, along with many State Houses and Legislatures. I know the last one well because they own 85% of the Montana legislature, The Governor, both Congressmen and one Senator.

EX500rider

(10,904 posts)
37. It's up to the US Coast Guard & local harbor Masters to decide when tugboats are required
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 03:20 PM
Mar 26

Maersk Shipping has no say in the matter

Caliman73

(11,764 posts)
15. Consumers demand a fair price.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:04 PM
Mar 26

You are blaming regular people when the Wealthy people are the ones who set the prices.

Tugboat operators who cost money but save lives and ensure safety, should be the responsibility of the manufacturers, shippers, etc...

People are too quick to blame the people on the lowest rung of the ladder while giving a pass to those who make the most out of every transaction.

Marcus IM

(2,329 posts)
18. So, low wages are also partly to blame?
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:12 PM
Mar 26

I agree with that.

Consumers are forced to consume the cheapest products, which only worstens the problem.

I'm not blaming them.

Upset at the conditions that create more problems.

Caliman73

(11,764 posts)
22. Capitalism is to blame.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:39 PM
Mar 26

It is an entire system, in which employees and consumers have the least amount of power.

Take for instance, climate change. Fossil fuel industry leaders absolutely knew, since the 1960's that pumping CO2 into the atmosphere was having a major effect on the climate. Did they work to make cars more fuel efficient? Did they look for alternatives for engine design? Did they take any steps at all to deal with the situation? No. They said to the consumer... "You need to reduce your carbon footprint". Recycle, reuse, etc... which don't get me wrong, those are good things and necessary, but have NOWHERE near the effect that even minor changes within the industry would have on climate change. They blocked at every turn, the technology for renewable sources of energy, to protect their revenue. They pitted employees of their companies against others, not for the benefit of the employees, but for their bottom line.

They vilified Hillary Clinton when she told the truth that coal needed to be reduced and eventually eliminated, with the explicit promise that new, good paying jobs would be found for those workers. Instead they said, "Hillary Clinton hates coal and hates you".

Employees are considered "liabilities" in accounting practice. An expense for the Capitalists, so they are expendable. The goal of for profit businesses are to make as much money as possible. The incentive is to sell more and cut expenses. That means cutting employees as if they were just a waste product of industries. Companies work more on marketing and branding than on the quality of the products. They think, and know they can fool people and create loyalty rather than producing good, long lasting products.

The conditions are created by the incentive structures. Don't get me wrong, we consumers do have a role to play, but that role, compared to the people who make millions, and billions of dollars, is fairly small.

Warpy

(111,598 posts)
16. It's only 52 years old, young for an east coast bridge
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:05 PM
Mar 26

so that container ship must have given it a hell of a whack.

It seems the investigation will center on the ship's condition and the pilot bringing it in to the port. The only other thing I can think of is unexpected ship traffic in the area, although mechanical failure is most likely.

The bridge itself wasn't a hunk o junk, ready to fall under its own weight. Something catastrophic happened to the ship or harbor pilot.

Marcus IM

(2,329 posts)
20. Ship lost power in the turning basin. No tugboats required.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:17 PM
Mar 26

Even in the Miami the cargo ship turning basin requires tugboats until boats reach the exit.

I am quite shocked that this isn't required there. Really shocked, especially considering the consequences.



Warpy

(111,598 posts)
23. Thanks
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:41 PM
Mar 26

I did say a catastrophic failure with the ship was most likely

Container ship ports supply pilots who know the harbor and the currents to bring the ship in to the dock and cranes.

Tansy_Gold

(17,914 posts)
21. The ship lost power
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:22 PM
Mar 26

I saw one post either here or on Xitter that someone on the ship radioed the problem and police moved to halt traffic, but there wasn't sufficient time for the vehicles already on the bridge to make it across.

Did a little research and found this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2024/03/26/baltimore-bridge-collapse-ship-dali/73105394007/

"The vessel notified MD Department of Transportation (MDOT) that they had lost control of the vessel" and a collision with the bridge "was possible," according to the report by DHS’ Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. "The vessel struck the bridge causing a complete collapse."


Also that the DALI is multiple times bigger than anything that existed in 1977 when the bridge was built, and that there are container ships today even larger.

Deep State Witch

(10,516 posts)
25. This is From a Friend
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 02:45 PM
Mar 26

Whose husband was probably able to do these calculations in his head.

Okay, people who have NO FUCKING CLUE about physics asking "how could a ship knock down a bridge that easily?"
Doing approximations -
A fully loaded container ship at about 220,000 TONS of weight. (Taking that from the ship the Ever Given that got stuck in the Suez Canal - this one could have been MORE considering it was massively loaded)
Figure the channel speed is 8MPH (10MPH is "no wake", and it had lost some power, but let me tell you, inertia is a THING on a monster that big)
That translates to the rough equivalent of an explosive force of 3 TONS (6000 pounds, people) of TNT going on off on that bridge. And if you don't think 3 tons of TNT would take out a bridge that size, you are SADLY mistaken.
It was not "bad engineering of the bridge". It was not "lack of maintenance". It was PHYSICS. Please stop with the conspiracy theories.

SlimJimmy

(3,185 posts)
47. I agree with you. The ship lost power for some reason, and they lost control.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 10:37 PM
Mar 26

Once that large fully loaded ship hit the center support, it was all over but the shouting. No conspiracy theories needed.

MichMan

(12,035 posts)
35. Place explosive mines around the perimeter of the bridge
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 03:14 PM
Mar 26

Any ships that get too close get blown up and sink

IronLionZion

(45,770 posts)
40. The only thing that stops a bad container ship is a good container ship
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 03:34 PM
Mar 26

Nothing, absolutely nothing can be changed in the processes, policies, regulations, or laws that can stop a container ship from ramming a bridge if it is determined to do so. The people who died or were wounded have to simply pay the price of freedom because this is America. The right to keep and ship containers is in our constitution. What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand? The only solution to this problem is for Congress to appropriate funding for every bridge to be guarded by container ships. A container shipped society is a polite society. - the container ship industry lobbyists, or National Container Ship Association



Sailors have been as diverse as sailing itself. Ship workers have been diverse long before USA was a country.

I have not seen a single politician or talking head say the solution to this problem is thoughts and prayers or more ships. Or for kids to do their bridging and shipping at home.

SlimJimmy

(3,185 posts)
46. I don't believe the pilots made a mistake.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 10:33 PM
Mar 26

The ship lost power and they had no steering control. They even tossed in the emergency anchor, but it was too late.

snpsmom

(698 posts)
52. Having been on ships
Wed Mar 27, 2024, 08:17 AM
Mar 27

Tossing that anchor goes approximately like this:

1. Let go the anchor

2. Watch t make sure the first 5 - 6 shots of chain go

3. Run like hell because that chain is going to snap back and kill somebody when it fails because it will not stop the behemoth of a ship you are trying to anchor.

quakerboy

(13,930 posts)
53. Seems like theres a concerning number of ship issues lately
Thu Mar 28, 2024, 03:06 AM
Mar 28

I noticed we were having what seemed like a lot of embarrassing Navy collisions not too long ago.

Now this.

I wonder what could cause such things? Maybe its been happening all my life and i just never took notice?

summer_in_TX

(2,793 posts)
48. The Sunshine Skyway Bridge now has "islands" around every support to prevent any other accidents.
Tue Mar 26, 2024, 11:43 PM
Mar 26

Tugboats are a good idea in the interim, but the supports ultimately need to be protected.

All the bridges on shipping lanes should be assessed for vulnerabilities. It's cheaper to be proactive, and it can save lives.

While this bridge did not come down, as far as we know now, from any effects of aging or lack of upkeep, there are still many bridges across the country feeling the ill effects of what the Club for Growth started under Reagan. Their constant mantra for no new taxes and refusing to support any Republican who didn't sign their pledge led to disinvestment at all levels of government, in turn leading to the postponing or elimination of appropriate maintenance. We still have a lot of infrastructure that needs to be inspected for deterioration and any necessary repairs made.

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