Reuters: Pope says Ukraine should have 'courage of the white flag' of negotiations

[WarGamer]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-says-ukraine-courage-white-161856540.html

ROME (Reuters) -Pope Francis has said in an interview that Ukraine should have what he called the courage of the "white flag" and negotiate an end to the war with Russia that followed Moscow's full-scale invasion two years ago and that has killed tens of thousands.

Francis made his comments in an interview recorded last month with Swiss broadcaster RSI, well before Friday's latest offer by Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan to host a summit between Ukraine and Russia to end the war.

Erdogan made the fresh offer after a meeting in Istanbul with his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelenskiy. Zelenskiy has said while he wants peace he will not give up any territory.

[OAITW r.2.0]

1. WTF? Sorry, Pope, focus on your own end days and don't create them for other people.

[2naSalit]

5. Something like...

"Stay in your lane" comes to mind.

[former9thward]

25. Zelensky has asked the Pope to get out of his "lane".

Zelenskyy meets Pope Francis at Vatican and seeks backing for Ukraine’s peace plan

ROME (AP) — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had private talks with Pope Francis at the Vatican on Saturday, later saying he sought support for Ukraine’s peace plan from the pontiff, who in the past has offered to try to help end the full-scale war launched by Russia a year ago.

Zelenskyy held his hand over his heart and said it was a “great honor” to meet with the pope. Francis, using a cane for his knee problem, came to greet the Ukrainian president before ushering him into a papal studio near the Vatican’s audience hall.

In a tweet after the 40-minute audience, Zelenskyy expressed gratitude to Francis for “his personal attention to the tragedy of millions of Ukrainians.” He said he spoke with the pontiff “about the tens of thousands of deported (Ukrainian) children. We must make every effort to return them home.”

Last month, Ukraine’s prime minister, Denys Shmyhal, asked the pope to help get children returned from Russia to Ukraine. But the Vatican’s statement Saturday made no mention of the request.

https://apnews.com/article/zelenskyy-italy-visit-pope-francis-meloni-d24d92183d1db65b87dec14edb8dc1a5

[niyad]

2. There are words. . .but most of them would net me a visit from the suits.

Hey, frankie, how about talking to the murdering invader? Tell HIM to do the white flag thing.

[WarGamer]

4. This may be his logic...

How many more lives to be lost?

CAN Ukraine achieve the stated goal of pushing Russia out of Ukrainian territory?

Most believe the answer is no.

[Silent Type]

9. That's pretty much where I am, although the withholding of funds is criminal.

Early on, many felt Russia would end up with areas along border. But the details of any agreement must be right.

But, who know?

[WarGamer]

21. An essential part of any deal MUST be NATO membership.

[Silent Type]

24. Good point. I have no idea how to negotiate a deal, but we seem to have good appointees for that.

Hope trump stays out of the way.

[BootinUp]

51. And we know that is not happening before Russia's AGGRESSION is halted.

When you call the current situation a stalemate it simply is not true.

If it were a stalemate then
Russia would not be making gains right now
they would not be massively increasing their military budget
they would not be telling their people and the world that their goals remain the same, to take over Ukraine.
They would not be launching constant attacks, instead they would be in a more defensive posture.

[niyad]

11. Then why in the F'n HELL isn't he talking to the murdering monster

responsible for this horror??? How DARE he put it on Ukraine??? HOW FUCKING DARE HE???

[orangecrush]

17. Till the last Orc

Is pushing up sunflowers.

That's how many.

[WarGamer]

18. Russia has more ORC's than Ukraine has young men...

How many deaths are you advocating for?

Did you know that the average age of a AFU soldier is 40+ because the youths are avoiding military service?

[orangecrush]

19. American technology is a great equalizer

As the orcs are finding out.

[WarGamer]

20. As of today... not really.

Russia is gaining territory. Russia is fighting WW2 style. They're sacrificing huge numbers for advancing.

And advancing they are. Even with full Western armament they (AFU) couldn't find success in the great counteroffensive last summer.

I'm willing to leave the choice to Ukrainians. Bottom line, it's up to them. But someone needs to ask them... what IS victory?

And of course they need to be armed... mostly by Europeans.

[orangecrush]

23. I wonder if Russian widows

Think it is worth it

[niyad]

36. How many of them actually know that they ARE widows?

[orangecrush]

62. Good point.

[Emrys]

26. Ridiculous stance.

It's as if you blank out how the Russians have treated any Ukrainians in areas of Ukraine they've seized.

If you think capitulation is going to save Ukrainian lives, in the short, medium or long term, then you need to spend less time kidding yourself that you're better informed than many of us, and some more time reminding yourself of what they've done where they've managed to occupy territory, say Bucha for one example, and listening to what Putin and his cronies have in mind for Ukraine and its people, then for more countries and people sweeping west. They're saying it out loud with visual aids, so it's not hard to pick up the gist. That future brings subjugation with all the grisliness that entails, gathering those that haven't yet been killed to add to his own forces to top up the numbers lost by his cavalier tactics to perpetuate the imperial war he intends to wage.

Last time I challenged you on your mysterious magical "in the know" sources of intel, all you had to offer was a string of MSM links all singing off the same songsheet - oh noes, the Ukrainians' drones are dropping out of the sky left, right and centre because the Russians have deployed EW countermeasures. It was the night before Christmas, so I had better things to do than try to correct your misconceptions and repeat myself by pointing out that those EW installations were nothing new, were not always effective, sometimes backfired and stopped the Russians' own drones deploying as intended, and were handily mirrored by Ukraine's own EW efforts. Guess which side's looking like it's gained the upper hand in that field in the intervening period?

Meanwhile, the Russians aren't daring to deploy their ships beyond the Sea of Azov for fear they'll get sunk, and they've cut right back on their flights anywhere near Ukrainian airspace because their planes are getting blown out of the sky with quite some regularity. At the same time, Ukraine is paring away methodically at various facilities in Crimea and attacks on militarily significant locations in Russia itself are practically daily occurrences.

The Russians, rather than having the inexaustible supply of raw troops you seem to envisage, having seemingly exhausted their supply of deperate convicted criminals, are being driven to trick gullible people from India and Africa into signing up for visas, only to be shipped off to the front, usually to die within days. Doesn't seem like the actions of a country that has a handle on replenishing its cannon fodder, does it?

As for Ukraine, it's not so much that younger people are avoiding enlistment, it's that Ukraine's mobilization was always planned to take place in stages, with the younger militarily inexperienced cohort held back till the final stages if needed - those plans have been published, so they're no secret. That's why the age averages have been rising, but the journos you seem to rely on either don't know it or are deliberately misleading people.

But go ahead and fixate on the minor land gains Russia's made in already devastated towns and villages if it makes you feel more in the know. We'll see how that pans out when Ukraine finally has enough firepower to make a show of it, which shouldn't be long now.

[WarGamer]

33. I challenge you... in a friendly manner...

To lay out a road map... a plan describing to me how the AFU can eject Russia from Ukrainian soil.

Not broad sweeping concepts but nitty gritty plans.

I can't come up with one. I also can't come up with a plan of HOW the Russians could take Ukraine including Kyiv and Lviv.

It's a stalemate. It's WW1 trench warfare.

Western hardware hasn't been magic. Abrams have been destroyed, Leopards have been destroyed.

F-16's won't be magic either.

But it's not MY decision... if Ukrainians want to continue fighting, arm them and help them as possible.

But MANY of us can't see a strategic end to this war.

[BootinUp]

37. Ukraine will lose only if MAGA Republicans cut off U.S. aid - Max Boot

I posted a gift link to the article in Foreign affairs and you should check it out in my opinion. Here is another excerpt, but to read excerpts does not give one the complete picture that Mr. Boot sketches quite well.  

Jack Watling of the Royal United Services Institute in London, writing for Time magazine, notes that “Russia’s firepower dominance will potentially diminish” in 2025 as it runs low on ammunition stockpiles. In a similar vein, a senior Biden administration official told the New Yorker that “Russia can continue its current level of war expenditures into the spring of 2025, at which point it will run into trouble.” Meanwhile, the United States and Europe are expanding their defense production; next year, they might be able to produce twice as many artillery shells as Russia.

If those estimates are accurate, then Ukraine just has to survive this year before the tide might start to turn again. “Ukraine’s prospects are grim but hardly fatal,” retired Australian major general Mick Ryan told me. “There were multiple occasions when the allies faced such terrible prospects in World War II. They won not just through perseverance and production, but with an alliance strategy to defeat their enemy, not just defend against them. Such is Ukraine’s pathway to victory. Russia is a relatively weak bully — and very beatable. We just have to decide to do it.”

https://www.democraticunderground.com/113340834

[WarGamer]

39. It's a good article but doesn't face the question of defining victory...

Unless you count a stalemate as a victory... which it might be. Putins plans have been dashed for sure.

But I just can't see Russians pushed out of Ukrainian soil.

[BootinUp]

40. I don't think you remember it. Nor does it seem you even read the excerpt above.

"We just have to decide to do it."

[WarGamer]

43. Boot says exactly what I just said...

He considers a stalemate a victory.

I can go cut and paste the text if necessary.

AFU quite clearly defines victory as Russians leaving UKR soil, including Crimea.

I can't make that puzzle work.

At most... the AFU is fighting to hold Russia to approximately the same land they're holding now.

Russia is fighting until Western resolve weakens.

This can go on for years. And probably will.

[BootinUp]

46. Your definition is bullshit. The only definition that matters is when Russia stops attacking. Stops driving

tanks toward Kyiv. If that means the line is where it is now, so what?

[Emrys]

42. I don't call myself "Wargamer". I'm not a military strategist, never claimed or pretended to be one.

But I do read around and digest the arguments of many who are, along with those a lot closer to the action than any of us are. I also read other sources, which I usually post on Editorials & Other Articles if I think they're worthwhile, that go against the media accepted wisdom that Russia is economically and socially unscathed by the ongoing conflict so all is lost. It's hurting bad, and will hurt worse as the year wears on. A thousand human casualties a day and at times in the last week or so two or three planes lost a day is a toll that even the Russians can't sustain for long. As for the Abrams and Leopard losses, that's what happens when you put them in harm's way without the usual luxuries like air cover, and even then their crews have fared much better than those in any Russian tanks. The major success has been the Bradleys, funnily enough.

I would say that if you're not watching Crimea closely on a daily basis, I don't think you're getting a rounded picture of the state of the combat. And on top of that, stuff happens. Putin's had a few crises outside Ukraine on the last couple of years, and has been lucky to ride them out, albeit with quite a body count. I wouldn't bet on his lucky streak being permanent. Say one of the southern or eastern associates of the Russian Federation gets more restive and decides to grab its moment. Putin has little in reserve other than rattling his nuclear missiles.

Now, a counter-question would be how you see Russia continuing in its drive to take over the whole of Ukraine - let's not pretend that its ambitions are restricted to those areas it temporarily holds, Putin's propagandists even displayed a map on TV this week of Ukraine reduced to a northwestern stump.

Putin's original invasion plan saw Ukraine's leadership fleeing into exile and Putin's troops being welcomed with open arms. That was a serious failure of intelligence at the time, and given the intervening bloodshed, Ukrainian attitudes to would-be occupiers have hardened somewhat, so there's not much scope for enlisting the conquered to add to Putin's cannon fodder, especially as the next adversary would likely be NATO, with Poland champing at the bit.

It's been interesting to see the changes in European politics in recent times, especially among states which haven't had much of an international profile up to now. I've never known the EU and the European countries in NATO be so united in general terms on an issue (we can ignore Orban for now as he's caved when the going got tough and patience with him is all but exhausted). The US Republican stalling has certainly concentrated some minds, and new leadership has been emerging to take over (optimistically, in time, add to) the US's role, and not before time. Read Phillips O'Brien on what he thinks of the recent harder, no-bullshit line from Macron, Pavel and Kallas etc. towards Putin. People are generally fed up of tiptoeing around the arsehole, and if you're not scared of him, he has no real power. He's happy to moan about how everybody's mean to Russia all the time, well, he has reasons to be fearful himself. Things could get a lot worse for him very quickly.

It would help if you'd quit enlisting the "MANY of us" along with your super-secret sources - it smacks of weak arguments. Make your own case. If it's sound, it'll stand up without invoking invisible backup.

And yes, it is up to the Ukrainians. I always point that out whenever an argument or discussion gets to this stage. Last I looked, despite the entierly predictable tensions, polling shows they have no inclination to reach for the white flag. I don't think second-guessing their every move and doom mongering helps them in any way. I think they know they're hard up against it without outsiders handwringing loud and long.

[WarGamer]

44. Thanks for the reply!

Now, a counter-question would be how you see Russia continuing in its drive to take over the whole of Ukraine - let's not pretend that its ambitions are restricted to those areas it temporarily holds, Putin's propagandists even displayed a map on TV this week of Ukraine reduced to a northwestern stump.

Oh I don't think Russia has a chance in hell of taking much more of Ukraine.

The ONLY way I can imagine that... and it requires a reach...

Is if Russia literally raises an army in Belarus strong enough to threaten Kyiv. If they could do this, they'd force the AFU to withdraw from the East to cover Kyiv.

But Russia can't do that right now. Where will they get 250k troops, 5000 tanks and AV's?? And 5000 artillery tubes?

So yeah... stalemate.

[Emrys]

45. I suspect that if Putin tried dragging Belarus even further into the conflict, Lukashenko would be toast

There's unfinished business from his usurping the presidency, and man cannot live on potatoes alone.

I think the key question is how long Russia can tolerate a stalemate, if those are the terms you want to see it in. I think Boot's article has that adequately covered. Tensions are becoming more and more apparent even among Russia's downtrodden masses.

As I keep pointing out, it's really only a stalemate if you focus on the slugging out in Ukraine's east. The wider picture is that Ukraine has a long-term shaping operation underway. I think Putin's nervous about the Black Sea and Crimea, and no doubt the state of his air defences and air force in both Russia and Ukraine along with the rest of his military and civilian infrastructure that's being nibbled away -and if he is, for once his judgement is sound.

[WarGamer]

47. I hear ya...

Let's look at it from another perspective.

What's the RUSSIAN side of this?

I'd venture to guess that the Russians CAN NOT lose this.

If Russia gets their ass handed to them and a bag of chips as they cross the border back into Russia, they lose control of ALL their restive regions, possibly face major political change and instability starts to simmer in the East.

Thus, there is no possible way for Russia to "give up".

I think every honest person in the MoD knows this whole thing has been a clusterfuck, a huge mistake.

[Emrys]

48. Well then, I think we're back to the early days of the invasion,

when, if you remember, the buzz was all about desperately trying to find Putin an "off ramp" that would let him back down while saving face. I don't hear the likes of Macron worrying about that any more.

One counter-argument at the time was that this was a ridiculous concern as Putin's grip on Russia and its media was such that he could always knit his own reality. He may need more yarn at this stage.

If Russia gets their ass handed to them and a bag of chips as they cross the border back into Russia, they lose control of ALL their restive regions, possibly face major political change and instability starts to simmer in the East.

I'd argue that what you describe is probably inevitable whether Russia holds onto chunks of Ukraine or not. If it does hold on, it will have to devote vast resources to maintaining the status quo, meaning that its shortness of resources for any other flashpoints and little luxuries like food and heat comes into play. If it doesn't, it's still going to be overstretched as I can't see it not being driven to mount heavy defences on whatever front it's driven back to, with the bonus that humiliation and heightened resentment are going to grow. In either case, its economy is shot and it's a pariah, and all the tensions among its society and on its other borders still apply.

It's a mess entirely of Putin's making. Once he made the stupid decision to invade on the basis of ludicrously wrong-headed intelligence about the likely reception from Ukrainians, his goose was cooked. It may just take a long time for it to rest before it's ready to eat.

I don't like making predictions, but I've seen a protracted civil war in the aftermath of this stupid adventure coming for a long time. I don't relish the prospect, but I can't see any other way it plays out.

But maybe Putin will do us all a favour and pop his clogs (an inconvenient and embarrassing career development for his lookalikes). Then we'll at least face some different problems, or maybe the same problems with different faces.

[OnDoutside]

50. Great points.

I think we sometimes look at this through the lens of how things are now, without seeing how external events can reshape the same issues. Above all is November's US elections which has a reasonable chance of the Democrats winning the House, the president and hopefully the Senate. If that happens then we will see a renewed support for Ukraine. The downside is Ukraine has to hang on with not much happening until then.

It has seemed to me that the US didn't want this war over quickly but are happy to see a long protracted war that drains Russia. If that were the case, it's a terrible risk to take.

[womanofthehills]

56. Eric Price of Blackwater just said this:

“We need to bring this war to a close because all Ukraine is doing right now is destroying itself demographically. They’re chewing up the next generation of Ukrainian manpower that they really can’t replace right now.“

The NYT’s recently reported over 500,000 young men were killed or injured in this war. Now Ukraine is enlisting men over 50, 17 yr old boys & women. Over 600,000 men left the country to avoid fighting & possible death/injury. Lots of young men now with amputations.

Russia is 4 times the size of Ukraine & still has a young army because they have way more people.

[Emrys]

65. It's Erik Prince, not Eric Price, and he made his fortune out of running mercenaries

Blackwater is usually prefixed by the word "notorious", and with very good reason.

He's on a par with Yevgeny Prigozhin and the Wagner Group, with which he tried to serve as an ally. In 2021 he wanted to set up a private army in Ukraine, but that plan fell apart. In 2022 he joined with Steve Bannon to praise Putin's anti-LGBT policies. In February he called for the US to colonize Africa and Latin America, so I don't give much credence to his claim to humanitarian motives.

He has about as much credibility as dirt. Why the hell are you dragging his words here?

[thebigidea]

73. It's amazing how confident you are blathering about the Russian invasion...

...considering you've been wrong about almost EVERYTHING since before the invasion began.

Best stick to those games, maybe?

[WarGamer]

74. I was 100% wrong about the initial invasion...

Thought there was no possible way they'd be STUPID enough to do it.

I was wrong.

Since then... it's gone as I expected.

[OAITW r.2.0]

29. The best thing we can do for the Russian people is.....

destroying Putin's ambitions in the Ukraine. The sooner Putin is excised, the faster the Russian body heals.

[niyad]

32. Somebody needs to end that murdering monster NOW!

Last edited Sun Mar 10, 2024, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

[brush]

3. Easy to say, for the Pope. He should probably stay out of it as he's not losing...

his nation's sovereignty. Which is probably what will soon happen if Ukraine throws up the white flag...BTW, doesn't that mean surrender?

[2naSalit]

7. Last time I checked...

The white flag means surrender.

[Cha]

6. Sorry Pope but

You need to pay more Attention to what Russia Did and is doing!

[LiberalFighter]

8. What part did the Catholic Church play with Hitler?

[niyad]

10. Exactly.

[BootinUp]

12. Putting pressure on Ukraine is entirely pointless. It ignores THE FACT

that Putin's goals are not just expanding his borders a little. It is to EXTINGUISH the burgeoning democracy next door. Anyone that thinks it is in Ukraines interest to stop fighting is a dumbass.

[Wanderlust988]

13. I have a friend from Ukraine...he told me he doesn't care about the eastern Ukrainians

Because they've always been pro-Russia...even before Putin. So losing them is not really losing Ukraine in his mind. If they want to be a part of Russia, then so be it he feels. He just wants to go to work without missile attacks.

[BeyondGeography]

14. Without a NATO security guarantee any agreement would be worthless

Unless your friend doesn’t mind going to work for Putin.

[orangecrush]

16. Welcome to DU

[Polybius]

22. Member since: Sun Mar 22, 2020

Seems like the person just doesn't post very often.

[Silent Type]

28. +1. No expert, but that's what I have heard. Read a bit more, looks like

there is more controversy on how that region feels about Russia nowadays. So, looking to see what others post.

[Xolodno]

70. That's what a lot of people here don't understand.

It's very complicated. At the beginning of this invasion, we all know millions of Ukrainians fled the country. What never gets mentioned, three million of them actually fled INTO RUSSIA.

There is a segment of the population that would rather be ruled by Moscow. Another that could care less if the center of government is Kiev or Moscow. Another segment completely content to cede the east to Moscow (some would even give up Kiev). And then there are those who want to keep the entire country intact, they were the ones who volunteered to fight (and taking the most casualties).

And of course, there are international interests in this area that are too numerous to mention. Calling it a simple land grab by Putin makes a nice sound byte, easy to compartmentalize and gets emotions going, but as usual, there is a lot more going on here.

[Happy Hoosier]

60. If Putin wins here....

… the clock starts for his next invasion.

When he took Crimea, many of us said he would not stop there. He didn’t, despite some here ridiculing that idea. And he won’t stop here either.

[orangecrush]

15. And people in hell

Want ice water

[calimary]

27. WHAT??????????

"The courage of the 'white flag'"????????

W. T. F.?????

Maybe the Pope is so used to praying to martyrs he views Ukraine as a country of holy martyrs - or a country that should be presenting us with a bunch of new holy martyrs to pray to? Hey, I'm groping here. Just trying like hell to figure out some rationalization for urging a white flag to be included in the Ukraine scenario. Beats the hell outta me.

The courage of the white flag. O. M. G.

[RockRaven]

30. Why doesn't HE drag his bloated ass out into eastern Ukraine with a white flag

and see how whatever Russians grunts he encounters there end up treating him, as a microcosm, to learn the reason it isn't happening on the macro level?

[Dirty Socialist]

31. France 1940?

No thanks

[Plectranthus]

34. The "progressive" pope

Still Catholic,
Still terrible

[niyad]

35. Funny that the yahoo article made no reference to frankie's support for

putler's rationale for invading the independent, democratic nation of Ukraine, actually blamed NATO. FU frankie. FU.

[OAITW r.2.0]

38. Something is rotten in the Vatican and I don't know who or why.

Lifelong Catholic with 8 years of excellent Jesuit education that made me a happy agnostic.

[DC77]

41. F$ck no

Hell no
Hell no
Hell no

Catholic and not proud of the Pope. Disgraceful.

[herding cats]

49. The simple fact here is the Roman Catholic Church knows they hold little sway over Russia.

The Russian Orthodox Church has thumbed their nose at them repeatedly, most recently over the invasion of Ukraine.

Which means the only sway they have is with non Russian entities.

Personally, I think they should just shut the fuck up and not capitulate to actual Nazis again, but that's just me.

[Xolodno]

67. Why would the Russian Orthodox Church give a rats ass about the Pope?

Ever since the Great Schism of 1054 the various Orthodox Churches and Catholic Church have been completely divided. The Greek Orthodox Patriarch holds the "first among equals" title, which is like saying the Pope of Orthodoxy, but with out the power of Pope of Rome. And its no secret the most powerful Patriarch of the Orthodox Churches is actually the Russian Orthodox Patriarch.

Historically, these two groups hated each other. When the Crusades took Constantinople, they weren't just slaughtering Muslims, but Orthodox Christians and Jews were also being met by the sword. They haven't forgotten that.

[no_hypocrisy]

52. Pope Francis has blinders on.

Peace at the expense of:

1. Ceding of land to Russia, which
2. will proceed to Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and more.
3. Guaranteeing the execution of Zelensky.
4. Russia won’t settle for part of Ukraine..

[elocs]

53. To be generous, the Pope is simply naive. n/t

[Generic Brad]

54. Would he wave the white flag if someone invaded the Vatican?

Asking for a Ukrainian friend.

[Irish_Dem]

57. Exactly. The church would never tolerate any encroachment on their sovereignty.

[orangecrush]

63. I'm willing to bet

The interpretation of Francis's remarks was twisted in the article.

Pretty sure he condemned the invasion.

[Irish_Dem]

64. Hopefully we will get some clarification.

He is said to be in poor health.
Who knows what is going on with him.

[bullimiami]

55. Russia gtfo including crimea. and cough up 10 million for every dead Ukr.

And return all the kidnapped.

And start with 100B to help rebuilding.

Then we can start negotiations.

[ck4829]

58. A victory for Russia's campaign of state sponsored terrorism then

[Happy Hoosier]

59. This a call to condemn Ukrainians...

… to a life under a totalitarian Putin government.

Ukrainians are fighting for their existence.

[BannonsLiver]

61. There's a capitulation view from some here.

Which I interpret as pro Putin/Russia or at least adjacent.

[maxsolomon]

66. I'm not really sure what he meant.

The courage to negotiate an end to the war? That's not the same as surrendering, but he does use "defeated":

In the interview Francis was asked for his position on a debate between those who say Ukraine should give up as it has not been able to repel Russian forces, and those who say doing so would legitimise actions by the strongest party. The interviewer used the term "white flag" in the question.

"It is one interpretation, that is true," Francis said, according to an advance transcript of the interview and a partial video made available to Reuters on Saturday. It is due to be broadcast on March 20 as part of a new cultural programme.

"But I think that the strongest one is the one who looks at the situation, thinks about the people and has the courage of the white flag, and negotiates," Francis said, adding that talks should take place with the help of international powers.

"The word negotiate is a courageous word. When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate," Francis said.

[Bucky]

68. Theologian, not a military strategist

I still don't know why Biden isn't waiting the bloody shirt over Republican moderate stabbing Ukraine in the back by refusing to grant them aid after promising they would continue to support Ukraine's defense.

But to be fair, I'm an economics teacher, not a proven legislative tactician like Biden. I won't tell Biden how to support a critical client state, and I won't lean to the Pope for explaining how to fight a war.

[Xolodno]

69. Personally, I don't see this war ending anytime soon.

Zelensky has stated for peace negotiations to begin, it must fulfill his 10 point plan...and everyone knows that just isn't going to happen. Putin has stated the areas they have taken need to be recognized as part of Russia now, Ukraine demilitarizes and in a treaty promises to never join NATO. Joining the EU may be an exception. Also a non starter for Zelensky.

Keeping the conflict frozen aligns to Putin as well. Ukraine will not be able to join NATO. He now controls most of the industrial areas of Ukraine. This could very well go the way of North and South Korea.

And then there is the nightmare scenario. The defensive lines in the east collapse and they have to move troops protecting the north to that area. Which could result in Putin making another go at Kyiv. That's the main reason they need aid right now. They've been dragging their feet on a new conscription law since they don't have the means to equip them and training them will take a few months. We are almost halfway to through March, Ukraine is not going to be able to make another counter offensive this year, they need to assume defensive positions to hold current lines.

I've been going here to watch the battlefield lines change: https://twitter.com/spatialgrounds

They aren't always up to date due to limited available info, but, when it can confirm, you can infer where things are going.

[Goodheart]

71. I have a solution: give the Vatican to Russia.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

72. what???