You cannot be providing money and weapons for people who have killed

[malaise]

nearly 30,000 Palestinians and not expect a response.
The west does not own our planet.
Sorry if this upsets anyone but it is a simple fact.
For the record I have more than a few family members who are veterans from both the US and British military.

[BannonsLiver]

1. Ah yes, more of the virulently anti west sentiment.

Last edited Wed Jan 31, 2024, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

[malaise]

2. I am a virulent anti-imperialist

And the racist ‘Western memes that ‘we are superior to every other race and ethnicity’ is absolute BS that has been rejected by sane people. I repeat - the West does not own our planet.
That is all

[David__77]

6. Proud Boys slogan is "West is best".

[tritsofme]

8. lol well that settles it. I hear they drink water too.

[David__77]

10. Drink water, and are "anti-anti-Western". They are Western chauvinists.

[tritsofme]

14. To be pellucidly clear, IDGAF what they think.

[Igel]

149. There are a lot of chauvinists.

But the Western chauvinists are no better than the Muslim chauvinists or the PRC chauvinists or the Putinish chauvinists or the MeChista chauvinists or the NBPP chauvinists.

It's apparently in the water.

I have no problem with "I like what I am, leave me alone." I do have a problem with "you will submit and obey because you're inferior."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Do you have a citation?

The Proyd Boys are devotees of Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump and reject western values like pluralism and tolerance.

[erodriguez]

23. Look it up West is Best is definitely PBs Motto

They epitomize the racist viewpoint that the OP is against.

[enid602]

83. BiBi

Proud Boys are devotees of Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump and reject western values like pluralism and tolerance.

You’re describing BiBi.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

152. Nobody here likes Bibi, the Israeli Trump.

[enid602]

156. Yes

Understood. Just a useful idiot.

[BannonsLiver]

13. Jim Morrison also said it.

What’s your point, that everyone who pushes back against anti west sentiment is a proud boy? For someone who has complained bitterly about being lumped in with Hamas supporters for the last few months that’s quite a flex.

[viva la]

66. Pointing out that the west doesn't own

Isn't anti-west. It is a good point, IMHO.
And I'm a big fan of western culture and can also say other cultures matter too.

[BannonsLiver]

71. The OP has gone well beyond "pointing out" in the thread.

Try again.

[viva la]

77. There's nothing so instantly controversial

Than this war. With the best of goodwill, we can't seem to talk about it without hostility.

[stopdiggin]

18. does this represent an argument ?

the point ?
(and Putin wears pants?)

[BannonsLiver]

7. Nah, I had it right the first time.

[madaboutharry]

9. So all those who live in "the West" who do not agree with your world view are "insane"?

Thanks for making that pellucidly clear.

[BannonsLiver]

15. Insane wouldn't be the term I would use.

[stopdiggin]

17. the blatant mistake is in framing ALL as imperialism

to the exclusion of any other parameter, motivation or explanation.

As illustration - while the 'west' certainly does not own this planet - but do they have a right to sail it's open waters? (or do we make a case for Houthi missiles and piracy?)

https://www.newsweek.com/china-houthis-iran-rein-attack-red-sea-shipping-crisis-1864201

[Voltaire2]

107. We impose brutal economic embargoes on

countries we decide are intolerable. It’s the same old story, free trade when it is in our interests, trade restrictions when it isn’t.

As far as the Houthis are concerned, we have been colluding with the Saudi thugs to exterminate the Shiites in Yemen for a very long time, and they just don’t care about our right to send our ships past them.

[stopdiggin]

146. So your answer is

You are in support of the missiles and piracy. Which more or less confirms - while going to the point of my post. If you see everything through the lens of 'western imperialism' ... Then this is kind of where you end up.

[Voltaire2]

189. No. My answer is that the situation in the region

is very complicated. A comprehensive peace would require addressing multiple conflicts. Our role in the region has been to destabilize countries and aggravate conflicts, and we have done so to promote our global dominance. Your dismissal of ‘western imperialism’ does not make the historical situation any different, it just blinds you to reality.

[stopdiggin]

191. and so the Houthis (and Hamas) have a green light

on lobbing missiles ... Thanks. I've got a clearer understanding now.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Voltaire2]

192. Nope. Again the Houthis have a legitimate grievance, not a 'green light'.

Our allies, the Saudi Thuggery, with our blessings and our military aid, have tried to eliminate the Shiite population of Yemen. Perhaps we ought to address the reasons why they are lobbing missiles at ships rather than just lob missiles back at them? Do we even want peace in the region? We certainly aren't doing anything that might accomplish that.

[The Magistrate]

195. Should They Be 'Lobbing Missiles' At Passing Merchant Vessels, Sir?

A simple yes or no ought to suffice.

However complex the circumstances in Yemen may be....

[EX500rider]

196. "have tried to eliminate the Shiite population of Yemen."

And by that you mean have supported the elected government of Abdrabbuh Mansur Hadi against Iranian supported rebels?

[Bettie]

198. Yet another reason...

why religion is much more divisive than it is useful in the world.

Seriously, all these people fighting all the time over whose version of a supreme being is better and who worships it the 'Right" way.

[HUAJIAO]

20. WHAT !!!???

[malthaussen]

41. So, I guess you don't know the meaning of "virulent"...

... or "anti-West."

-- Mal

[tritsofme]

3. Let me be pellucidly clear. Hamas and their sympathizers are the scum of the earth.

Fuck them, hard.

[0rganism]

44. And what of the civilian population amongst whom Hamas hides and recruits?

Last edited Sun Jan 28, 2024, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Are they also to be regarded as scum and "fucked hard" as well? Please be pellucidly clear about this.

If so, in your opinion, how hard should they be "fucked"? Of the 2 million people in Gaza, how many require said "fucking"?

[TheKentuckian]

57. The world awaits the superior battle plan that prevents fucking

because the conceit that the terrorists have touched base and therefore must be tolerated or surrendered to is not viable.

[0rganism]

88. In the meantime I guess we just sit back and accept that a lot of folks have to get fucked, yeah?

Not to diminish the difficulty involved in the process of un-shuffling terrorists from the general population, however coming up with this "superior battle plan" has to become a top priority because bombing millions of civilians without being perceived as monsters also is not viable. I hope the brain trust at the IDF is well on its way to coming up with such a battle plan.

[TheKentuckian]

94. Yes, there is no magic wand to waive here and Hamas must go.

[0rganism]

98. There's no magic wand yet, so there is a mandatory price to be paid for removing Hamas

That price is paid in corpses, rubble, and ruined lives. How much is too much?

[TheKentuckian]

109. The cost of the alternative is not going to be

tolerated so the answer is there can be no such thing as too much.

In the same place Gaza would have long ago been turned to glass or a parking lot if it was us in the place of Israel.

[0rganism]

132. There might be more than one alternative, don't you think?

> the answer is there can be no such thing as too much
So, all 2 million human lives in Gaza? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the people who give a damn about this situation, including Americans, would find this both grotesque and unacceptable. Plus, the primary Hamas leadership doesn't even live in Gaza. The IDF could kill every Palestinian in Gaza and throw in the West Bank for good measure, and Hamas would only seem increasingly justified in their antagonism. Ideas are not defeated in wars.

> In the same place Gaza would have long ago been turned to glass or a parking lot if it was us in the place of Israel.
Which would also be considered unacceptable, generally. America's historic and/or hypothetical treatment of neighboring and indigenous populations should not be considered a calibration point for the rest of human civilizations' behavior, for ever and ever. Frankly, that whole comparison suffers from what the OP criticized in Western imperialism. Such behavior by conquerors no longer goes undocumented and forgotten, but rather publicly displays to the world yet another moral failure of humanity.

[ForgedCrank]

141. What, exactly,

would you recommend? Every deal ever offered with them has been met with refusal of anything that does not include the destruction of Israel. These are people uninterested in deals. They have one goal, and they will not willingly stop. They have not only told the world their position, they have backed it up with terrorism for decades.

[0rganism]

155. generally, I recommend intensive ongoing diplomatic efforts to engage creatively and constructively

Apparently, such efforts are ongoing even now, and I hope the professionals so engaged can see paths the rest of us do not. There remain over a hundred hostages to consider, as well.

As for my personal recommendations, they are far less likely to succeed due to my limited knowledge of international law and precise details of the situation. Israelis and Palestinians share some fundamental common ground (such as the ground, e.g.), and could become natural allies under the right circumstances.

A two-state solution seems impractical as currently implemented, and the Gaza strip can no longer be considered inhabitable by millions unless and until Israel rebuilds it. Might as well cede the territory to Israel entirely, possibly as some kind of land-swap with Gazan Palestinians voluntarily relocating to the West Bank which gets extended to the Mediterranean coast as a (relatively narrow) DMZ strip south of Lebanon, but such population migrations and land swaps are exceedingly difficult to handle humanely and legally. Obviously return of the hostages must be a part of this negotiation. A Palestinian state should be contiguous, overseen by one Palestinian government.

A satisfactory single-state solution is possible only if it can be maintained as secular and ethnically open, which would likely require some additional governmental systems with supporting bureaucracy. Finding a non-violent solution to this conflict requires detailed understanding of a complex situation, which makes violent solutions seem appealing despite their obvious suboptimality. I think it's both possible and best handled by professional diplomats.

[TexasDem69]

159. Professional diplomats have tried for decades

And every time peace fails because Hamas, or Black September, or the PLO, or whatever name you want to append to the group representing the Palestinian people has rejected a peaceful solution.

[0rganism]

171. Well, they'll have to figure it out this time around

The first solution doesn't have to last forever as long as they keep trying, finding new common ground, until the conditions are truly peaceful.

[TheKentuckian]

178. Okay, give your prefered "calibration point".

One that actually exists.

The Iranians?

The Saudis?

The Germans?

The Greeks?

India?

Who is this beacon of humanity you lay out as the model that Israel is uniquely required to be measured against?

[0rganism]

187. To ask that question is to misunderstand my comment

I assume you reference
>> America's historic and/or hypothetical treatment of neighboring and indigenous populations should not be considered a calibration point for the rest of human civilizations' behavior, for ever and ever

But your question
> Okay, give your prefered "calibration point". One that actually exists.

I could engage with this list ("the Greeks of now or the Greeks of 431 BCE? the Athenians?" ), but to do so is non sequitur. To clarify, the point remains that we should not look only to our past to guide our evaluation of future ethics to come. I believe we can do better, and it is our duty to try to do so. There is no need to compare ourselves to anyone but us relative to our desired outcome, no previous people have existed with the enormous advantages developed in the last 100 years. Our situation is radically different now, and with its privileges will come commensurate challenges and obligations.

I would not wish the ethics of 1920s America upon any indigenous or minority population today, but to disparage those historic qualities is to disregard their context and miss their latent potential for improvement.

If it seems I hold Israel to this higher standard, it is because (a) I have family ties to the country and want it to succeed as a nation-state among global peers, (b) I want Israel seen as a paragon of liberty and compassion rather than an agent of misfortune and despair, and (c) at this point Israel has the most agency in the conflict. Hamas is involved obviously, especially with respect to the fate of hostages, but they are terroristic exterminationists who cannot be trusted to negotiate and they have little control of the overall situation. Israel is in the driver's seat now, and I really want them to do an excellent job. So far, that has not been the case, and I really hope that changes before the conflict spreads further.

So to answer your question,
> Who is this beacon of humanity you lay out as the model that Israel is uniquely required to be measured against?
Only our best selves. We humans of now must become the "calibration point" and be ready to improve on that as time moves along with us. Maybe this is impossible, but impossibilities remain within the domain of hope.

[thucythucy]

202. You mention the Athenians

and I immediately think of Thucydides, and his account of the Athenian massacre of the population of Melos.

Melos had declared its neutrality in the war between Athens and Sparta, but this wasn't good enough for the Athenians. When the government of Melos refused to be subjugated, the Athenian military attacked, slaughtered all the men and adolescent boys, and sold the women and children into slavery.

Today we'd call that genocide.

Just a point of information which you may or may not already know.

[edisdead]

123. So you ask Israel to endure more murders rapes?

[0rganism]

137. Seems to me, we should all work towards finding another way.

Murder cannot be the only alternative to murder or we humans are truly lost.

[edisdead]

157. it isn't murder. It's war.

[0rganism]

158. War being a subclass of Murder, I'll have to disagree on principle

The distinction is not as strong as some might hope.

[edisdead]

160. Go ahead and disagree.

[The Magistrate]

194. That's Just Silly: 'Murder' Is A Sub-set Of 'Killing'

'War' is another.

'Murder' is killing, homicide, if you will, defined by law as criminal in the highest degree. It does not exist outside of civil law.

War is killing directed by the state, and itself exists outside of civil law. Killing in war can be atrocious, it can be obviously wrong, counter-productive as well as key to victory: it can be any number of things. There exists a pretense that a body of international law defines some killing in war as criminal, and this has been wielded against some petty powers, but as there exists no mechanism to enforce it against powers of any weight which are determined to defy it, this is largely a cudgel to be wielded in political agitation. Where major powers are involved, there is no justice but the victor's, and without a victor, there will be no justice at all.

[brush]

114. Also I guess we should ignore hours-long response delay by the IDF...

Last edited Mon Jan 29, 2024, 04:28 PM - Edit history (2)

on Oct. 7 and just write it off as Netanahu/Likud were just asleep at the wheel and not it being a LIHOP thing so the IDF can really fuck the innocent Palestinians so hard that we first kill as many as we can, and be just as blood thirsty as Hamas?

That has negative consequences. Not good.

[TheKentuckian]

181. Chalk it however you like because it changes nothing

The failure to prevent an act of aggression by whatever victim blaming criteria is conjured doesn't alleviate the culpability of the perpetrators.

Particularly when the aggression is ongoing and sworn to just be the opening act.

What is it that you think some young girl at a music festival did or failed to do to get raped, mutilated, and snuffed?

[brush]

183. So you just throw up your hands and let the violence go on?

1200 Israelis killed vs 30,000 and counting Palestinians are killed so Netanyahu gets away with no explanation for the multi-hour delay of the IDF response?

Like that's has any chance at all of stopping the cycle of violence? Do you want it to end or every comment on ii is just to say basically nothing can be done because Oct. 7 happend, like you just wrote:

"...whatever victim blaming criteria is conjured doesn't alleviate the culpability of the perpetrators."

That's it? That's the best you can come up with? Nothing about negotiations for a ceasefire? Nothing about the UN holding an election to maybe get the Hamas admin out? Nothing about Israel dumping corrupt ass Netanyahu and working towards a two-state solution?

With that attitude the cycle of violence will be going on for another 75 years.









?

[The Magistrate]

204. 'the UN holding an election to maybe get the Hamas admin out'

How would that work, exactly, Sir?


"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[brush]

207. It may or may not work. But of my post, that's what you focus on, not the prolonged delay of the IDF response...

on Oct. 7, not Bibi's possible LIHOP so the extreme retaliation makes him look like the best protector of Israel. Nothing about Israel dumping corrupt ass Netanyahu and working towards a two-state solution? Nothing about negotiations for a ceasefire?

Trying an election in Gaza is all you have to comment on?

[The Magistrate]

209. I Was Being Gentle, Sir

And remain curious how such an election could be held: the mechanics of it....

As you seem to be settling on a 'that bad man Netanyahu tricked Hamas into indulging in a sadistic spree of rape and murder so he could just kill and kill and kill poor innocent Palestinians' view of the matter, it's unclear if you've anything to say worth hearing.

[betsuni]

210. Exactly.

[brush]

211. Like I said, an election may or may not work. I didn't take you for a Netanyahu fan. Do ya really think that...

hours-long delay in response by the IDF on Oct. 7 was just one of those things that happen, that it wasn't an LIHOP thing?

I mean there still hasn't been an explanation for that. Aren't you curious? From your posts you don't strike me as a naive person.

[The Magistrate]

213. So, Let's Look At This A Moment

You actually believe Israel's military response was deliberately delayed so that more Israelis would be raped and tortured and killed and kidnapped.

A yes or no will suffice.

In matters like this, no one 'asks a question' they don't already believe they have an answer to, and no one 'asks a question' with any other intent than to plant the seed of nodding agreement with that answer in someone else.

No answer, by the way, will be taken as 'yes, but too embarrassed to say so straight out in public'....

[brush]

214. Ok, you're not curious about the delay. I have nothing else to say to you.

[The Magistrate]

215. So That's A 'Yes, But Too Embarrassed To Say So Straight Out'

[brush]

216. Keep up that hardcore attitude, buddy. Go another 75 years of repeating the cycle of violence.

[The Magistrate]

217. Do, Please, Explain: What Is 'Hard-Core' About Pointing Up Conspiracist Lunacy?

If anything keeps this going another seventy-five years (it's closer to a century of conflict, but I'll take seventy-five to be going on), it will be the refusal of Arab Palestinians to accept that killing Jews in Israel isn't going to get great-grandpa's farm back. Every episode of violence by the 'hard men' of Arab Palestine has ended with the people of Palestine in more straitened circumstances, and with prospects more dim, than they had before. People are expected to learn, and when they refuse to, there will be problems. Whatever view one has of the utility or propriety of violence in general, the record establishes violence is not the royal road to success for the people of Arab Palestine.

[brush]

218. I'm for the Biden/Blinken plan that calls for a two-month long...

ceasefire, a hostage release, and later a prisoner exchange. And of course humanitarian aid of food, water and medical supplies to Gaza.

Qatar, Egypt and Iran are on board. Of course Netanyahu and Hamas are still resisting and the aforementioned parties have to keep pressuring them to sigh on.

IMO both need to go so this war can end and two-state negotiations can get going and followed to fruition.

[The Magistrate]

219. I Certainly Support The Policies Of President Biden In this Matter

Though again, I fail to see how this touches on the promotion of conspiracist drivel this exchange commenced with. If you're looking for a cudgel to wield against Netanyahu, there are plenty ready to hand without imagining the fellow sitting there, rubbing hands like the 'happy merchant' and gloating over how letting Hamas rape and torture and murder and kidnap more and more Israelis will let him kill more and more and more Palestinians, the only goal of his heart....

[brush]

220. Stay uncurious about the multi-hour IDF delay. It suits you.

IMO Israel can do much better than the corrupt, bribe-taking Netanyahu.

[The Magistrate]

221. And You Were Beginning To Show Signs Of Recovery....

"I'm going home. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."

[brush]

222. Israel can do better.

Last edited Tue Jan 30, 2024, 11:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Are you in denial about Netanyahu/Likud being warned of a coming attack by Hamas?

It was reported weeks ago Egypt, as well as a female Israeli intel person alert Bibi that something big was coming?

No explanation yet, but you're not curious. You just laugh it off as something I conjured up.

You're the one who should be embarrassed.

[tritsofme]

206. So...what happens if there are new elections in Gaza, and Hamas wins in a landslide?

Just like the last time they held elections.

That’s the main reason “president” Abbas is in year 18 of his 4 year term, he fears that himself and Fatah would be absolutely routed, not only in Gaza, but the West Bank as well.

[brush]

208. See post 207.

[Mossfern]

59. Blame Hamas, not "the West."

n/t

[0rganism]

93. Blame whomever you prefer, just remember to get the word out, 'cause so far the pro-fucking PR has been weak at best

Much of the world disagrees vehemently with your position. Perhaps alternate perspectives exist?

[GuppyGal]

4. These are numbers being supplied by Hamas. nt

[David__77]

5. That is correct.

[Picaro]

11. Agree with you 100%

Criticizing a secular government is NOT antisemitism. Calling out war crimes and crimes against humanity doesn't mean you're on the side of Hamas. Being a Gazan doesn't automatically make you a member of Hamas.

This is a very complex situation that won't be solved with simple brutal force.

What is going on under Netanyahu is stomach turning. His stated intent is to force the Palestinian's out of Gaza completely. He has never been for any kind of two-state solution. He is now moving to the end stage when all territory will be annexed and the Palestinians whether in Gaza or the West Bank will be forced out to neighboring Arab countries.

He could be sowing the seeds of the doom of Israel. He is uniting the sworn enemies of Israel in a way not seen since the 1960's.

Demanding that the U.S. continue to blindly support Israel without any conditions is painting us into a diplomatic corner.

[David__77]

16. This will not end well without a change of course.

Painted into a corner is a good description.

[stopdiggin]

19. the U.S. is not in a diplomatic corner

nor have they been 'painted' there - by anybody.

What is being 'painted' here - is a picture of a U.S. government (and Biden administration) sealed into a lock-step position of blind allegiance. That is not what is happening. (either within or without of the administration)

[surfered]

21. Your first paragraph is spot on.

[surfered]

22. Picaro's first paragraph.

[surfered]

25. Criticizing Lt Calley for machine gunning women and children in a ditch

… Was not un-American. It’s humanitarian.

[sop]

28. "All territory will be annexed and the Palestinians will be forced out." That's Netenyahu's stated position,

and he is implacable.

[sarisataka]

33. Do you know Hamas stated position?

And how placable they are?

[uponit7771]

143. Hamas's position is something are allies should be the opposite of?

[sarisataka]

151. I would hope the elimination of Israel

Is something all countries and people oppose.

I am not naive enough to believe that is true. I actually expect if Israel vanished the celebration would eclipse those of October 8

[tritsofme]

56. That's not even true.

[perdita9]

24. What response would you suggest for the countries who support Hamas?

I'm annoyed at all the criticism being aimed at Israel and America when Iran gets a pass for actively funding terrorist organizations.

War only ends with negotiations. You can't have that with both sides bombing each other.

[BannonsLiver]

26. You'll never hear any criticism of Iran from that group.

And when the US hits back at Iran it will be called genocide by the same folks.

[malaise]

31. The US overthrew the democratic government of Iran decades ago

and installed and propped up the corrupt Shah- who do you think you are fooling?
Fill me in about the banana republics and the military governments in South and Central America. Fill me in on Haiti. Then let’s head to South East Asia.
Same shit different decade.

[brush]

42. Bring it, Malaise.

[The Magistrate]

47. Who Was, Ma'am, Overthrown By Fundamentalist Clerics

Who have established a corrupted theocracy which is currently hanging women for not wearing a head-scarf....

[tritsofme]

48. Mentioning that makes you an imperialist, obviously.

[betsuni]

58. IOKIYNTW: It's Okay If You're Not the West

[PufPuf23]

67. One can see why Iran does not like the USA.

1) Couped a democratic government to install the Shah so the UK and USA could steal the oil wealth of Iran.

2) Supported Saddam Hussein and Iraq in an 8 plus year meat grinder of war 1980-1988 under Reagan.

3) Incidentally, 1981 to 1985(?) sold arms illegally to Iran to fight Iraq in Iran-Contra where funds were used to arms the Contras counter to the Boland Amendment.

4) Lied to the World to justify the invasion and subsequent unprosecuted war crimes in Iraq.

You forgetting that GWB supported the Taliban as well?

USA gave free rein to radical clerics.

[EX500rider]

91. "You forgetting that GWB supported the Taliban as well?" Because it didn't happen?

Last edited Sun Jan 28, 2024, 09:04 PM - Edit history (1)

The US supported the Mujahedeen against the Soviets, the Taliban weren't even founded till 1994 when Bill Clinton was president.
And the funding of the Mujahideen started under Carter

[TheKentuckian]

117. They can not like us in hunter-gatherer type numbers

and in some time akin to early on in the stone age.

[The Magistrate]

154. So What, Sir

None of that changes the character of the present regime. None of it makes the ayatollahs persons whose opinion of events in the Near East ought to be looked to for guidance.

[BannonsLiver]

63. It's actually not, but sure.

I think it’s clear with your Mandela comment where you stand on Hamas and other “freedom fighters” throughout recent U.S. and world history.

[JI7]

111. Most Iranian people do not support their govt

They admit to being wrong about the Ayatollah and want the Shah back.

These are the actual people of Iran. A majority of them.

[uponit7771]

144. The response that has worked for a multitude of countries India here recently

[jrthin]

27. Malaise, you rock! I totally agree w/your post.

[malaise]

29. We who live it

know it.
It’s that simple.

[jrthin]

36. So very true.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

133. If the world were a kind and just place. n/t

[malaise]

34. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Ask Mandela.
Anyone who challenges Western interests is a terrorist.
That shit doesn’t work with me.

[sarisataka]

38. What would you call those who specifically target civilians

with planned mass rape and torturing men women and children to death? Terrorists or freedom fighters?

[TheKentuckian]

62. You know SOMETHING will always justify such actions.

and they will exactly mimic the behavior of those they support by crying to beat the band about the necessary and justified consequences of the wickedness they celebrate.

Malicious and malignant with the fucking brass to crow about it but without the honor to accept responsibility.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

134. Rec. Let the racist, rapist terrorists and their supporters be known. n/t

[JohnSJ]

184. The implication is pretty clear. That person is implying Hamas are freedom fighters, and I say bullshit to that. To

classify Hamas as freedom fighters is disgusting.

[ForgedCrank]

45. Hamas is

comparable to Mandela in your view?
Holy hell man.

[tritsofme]

46. Do you consider Hamas to be "freedom fighters"? Was 10/7 justified resistance?

[GuppyGal]

69. It sure does sound like it !! nt

[BannonsLiver]

80. Or Bin Laden, for that matter.

[Cha]

182. Rec... So far you get

Crickets.

[tritsofme]

190. It was really more of a rhetorical question, I think we all know the answer is pellucidly clear.

[JohnSJ]

185. No response speaks volumes.

[TwilightZone]

49. Hamas is like Mandela?

That's an interesting take.

[BannonsLiver]

52. Good gravy.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

55. "Pro-Hamas" or "Pro-Palestine" just means "Racist" at this point. They want Jews exterminated. n/t

[BannonsLiver]

64. It was settled for me a while ago.

Last edited Wed Jan 31, 2024, 04:34 PM - Edit history (1)

[LetMyPeopleVote]

199. I firmly reject this comparison

Mandela was NOT a terrorist or rapist

[betsuni]

200. Anyone calling Mandela a terrorist then was wrong, anyone calling Hamas freedom fighters now is wrong.

[JustAnotherGen]

212. let me make this pellucidly clear

Hamas isn't fit to drink Mandela's, Ghandis, and Medgar Ever's dirty bathwater all put together in a used garbage can.

Mandela never had women raped to death. Or beheaded. Or their breast cut off while being raped and kicked around by filthy pigs.

[surfered]

32. It was Rumsfeld who posed the strategic question of the War on Terror...

…are we creating more terrorists than we are eliminating.

[malaise]

37. The real,question for humaniy is

Who are the real terrorists? Who gets to define this.
Folks have been getting away with murder, land and resource theft for centuries.
Enough!

[The Magistrate]

50. The Real Terrorists, Ma'am

Are persons doing violence to advance a cause the speaker opposes.

That is all the meaning the word carries. It tells you something about the person who says it, but nothing about the people or actions the speaker purports to describe. It does not even tell you the act described as 'terrorism' was atrocity; quite legitimate uses of military force have frequently been dubbed terrorism by those on the other side. It does not even indicate, by any objective standard, that the side the speaker supports has clean hands: regimes busy at atrocity in wholesale lots have been known to call their opponents terrorists.

My preference is for words which actually describe actions, and those who perform them. Hamas is an armed body which views atrocity as a legitimate tool of war, views the populace among which it operates as expendable cover, and does so in full knowledge that doing so is a clear violation of international law. It is an armed body whose leadership believes the death and maiming of myriad Palestinians is outweighed by what political gains they may purchase by it, and has openly declared its aim of establishing a fundamentalist theocracy, once it has eliminated the Jews. At bottom, Hamas is composed of men intoxicated by fantasies of restorative vengeance, and suicidal ideation, cloaked in a buffering of religious ecstacy.

[Warpy]

35. All correct

but it needs to be pointed out that the appalling cost paid by the people of Gaza doesn't deodorize the Hamas attack against Israel. Two crimes don't cancel each other out in any way.

The whole thing just makes me sick.

[brush]

39. I'm with you. It's up to 30,000 now v the 1,200 killed on Oct. 7? That's unjustifiable.

What are Netanyaku/Likud doing, going for just obvious and blatant over-kill? Israel can/should do better. Kick his ass to the curb. We all know he's corrupt as hell.

What's the story? Was the multiple-hours IDF delayed response on Oct. 7 a LIHOP?

Now the killing is so extreme neither side can is willing to go for the long pause that's being proposed, and what the Biden admin, along with Qatar, Iran and other countries, are negotiating for.

And the cycle of violence contines on...spin, rinse, repeat.

[lapfog_1]

177. maybe you should complain a bit more about the instigators of this cycle

honestly, if someone, anyone, attack the USA and killed 1200 civilians, what do you think our response would be?

Hint, it already happened... and we attacked and killed well over 100,000 people... in a nation that had nothing to do with the initial attack.

Spent trillions of dollars on it.

And occupied a nation that was playing host to the terrorist leader that started the attack for nearly 20 years, killing thousands more.

[brush]

179. Oh please. WWll involed many countries on both sides killing millions...

as much was at stake...the whole future of the world and whether it was to be democracy or fascism as the dominant ideology.

This is a conflict in a narrow strip of land between evil terrorists and a just as evil Netanyahu who's trying, alone with Likud, to save his ass by continuing the war and obliterating Hamas and the Palestinians who are in the way.

We certainly should do everything we can to find out if Bibi pulled a Let-It-Happen-On-Purpose operation by delaying the IDF response on Oct. 7 and letting the terror operation go on for hours so he would have the excuse he needed to wipe out Gaza and then be a hero to the Israelis.

You know he's corrupt with his court system scheme and all the bribes. We shouldn't let him get away with it. The world is not at stake as in WWll. What is is the cycle of violence continuing...especially if Gaza is flattened completely.

That'll just inflame the cycle all over again. You think the Arab nations will just take that and do nothing? And the world won't be very forgiving towards Israel if that happens and the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Israel needs to dump warmonger Netanyahu asap and negotiate a two-state solution.

[flashman13]

40. This seems to be one topic that even on DU it is not possible to have an intelligent and civil debate.

[TwilightZone]

60. When one side of the argument equates Hamas with Nelson Mendela...

there's really nowhere to go from there.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

61. Yes there is; Hell. Or whatever's worse. n/t

[flashman13]

65. I rest my case.

[TwilightZone]

153. You're not wrong.

But it perhaps is a bit unrealistic to expect rational discourse on an issue that's driven primarily by emotion and/or tribalism and/or binary thinking. There seems to be very little middle ground, not just here but everywhere.

[Cha]

168. Someone is equating the Gang Rapist Butchers of HAMAS

with Melson Mandela?!

That's a fucking Slur on Nelson Mandela.

[malaise]

188. Nelson Mandela was described as a terrorist by Hugh ranking members of Western governments

I rest my case

[Skittles]

165. yup

that's what happens when you pick a side with people who hate each other more than they care for anyone

[LexVegas]

43. I am thankful Biden is disregarding the extremist fringes on this issue. nt

[Lovie777]

51. I'm still voting for Pres. Biden and VP Harris.

[Butterflylady]

79. Who said they weren't voting for Biden here?

I don't believe anybody here would do that.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

53. There are only two sides in this war; Terrorists, and those who oppose them.

Those who support terrorists will cheer the deaths of Americans and Jews in equal measure, for they have only hate in their hearts and souls for anyone they see as unclean or unworthy. It is our jobs as Democrats, Americans and Humans to stand against these monsters and eliminate them whenever possible.

Civilized society will stand against Hamas and exterminate them in every venue possible.

Fuck HAMAS and their hateful rapist, sexist, racist, anti-civilization lovers both online and off. They deserve nothing more than death.

[Duncan Grant]

106. Is this fanaticism?

I tend to notice when terms like “eliminate” and “exterminate” “monsters” are mentioned. It’s a huge red flag in my world. I’m also wary when appeals are made to “civilized society” and “it’s our duty”. That’s introductory propaganda — not legitimate discourse.

So, do what you like, of course. It’s just a message board, and now I’ve had my say, too.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

112. Good, good! You see the problem.

See, I have a hardline stance. That stance is one that stands opposed to those who would rape, pillage and burn to achieve their goals; Essentially, anti-Hamas and anti-Terrorism in a nutshell. That can be further shown by the sentiment of "Civilized society", because in a civilized society, rape and murder of innocents are not used as political drivers; say what you will of the MAGAts, but they've yet to devolve to raping or murdering Democrats for their personal views. I'm not saying that's off the table, and that's why I'm firmly a Democrat, but the sentiment stands; Civilized people do not rape to express political discussion.

The problem arises when there are people who say "But rape is legitimate as political discourse". They may not say it in so many words, but there are people defending it as "Freedom fighting" right here in this thread; Rape has now become normalized by those people as "Freedom fighting". These people aren't rapists, they're "Freedom Fighters". These people aren't genocide supporters, they're "Freedom Fighters".

See, I fundamentally agree with many of the genuinely "Pro-Palestine" sentiments, but their supporters long ago went off the deep end directly into holocaust-enablers and anti-semites. Going to Jewish homes and threatening to burn them out, or Hamas locking jews in cargo containers and burning them alive to hundreds of thousands of likes on TikTok? That's my "Hard Line". Call opposing that sort of shit "Fanaticism" if you insist.

[Aussie105]

68. Some people need to take a chill pill.

Current situation:

1. Innocent civilians have, and are being killed.

2. Israel is in a 'no win' situation.
The aim of eradicating Hamas is unattainable. Too many civilian deaths, escalating response from countries surrounding Israel.

3. America is blindly funding and arming Israel.

I'm not taking sides. There is no 'good guy' in this fight. There are no future winners, only losers.

EDIT: Malaise is right. So are all the people who call Hamas bloodthirsty killers who want to wipe Israel off the map.
But that solves nothing.

[Aussie105]

74. I am.

NT

[Straw Man]

70. What you are seeing from Israel is not Western imperialism.

It is the reaction of a people who were slaughtered almost to extinction within living memory while the world said "Ho-hum ..." and didn't react until it was almost too late. "Never again!" is the relevant phrase.

[Aussie105]

73. "Never again!"

And in enforcing that, Israel is becoming the very thing the historical lessons and memories say it should be fighting against.

It's complicated.
DU discussions won't solve it.

[Straw Man]

78. Correction.

"Never again!"

And in enforcing that, Israel is becoming the very thing the historical lessons and memories say it should be fighting against.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is essentially territorial. Hitler's campaign of extermination was strictly racial.

[malaise]

82. THIS

It's heartbreaking to watch

[Straw Man]

205. But I wouldn't call it "imperialism."

Israel to the Jewish people represents a sort of lifeboat after the horrors of the Holocaust. After they suffered near extinction in an actual genocide, the ferocity of their defense of it should come as no surprise.

[The Magistrate]

223. Also, Sir, Quite One-Sided

I don't recall many instances of Jews after WWI letting off bombs in crowded German public spaces, or any instances of Jews blowing up buses in Berlin, or any declarations by Jewish armed bodies that they intended the extermination of Germans....

[TheKentuckian]

76. There are a great many that are vexed into a lather

about the almost piece and seek to finish the job by hook or by crook.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

75. Well this has certainly turned into a shit show,

other than that, I'm out.

[Aussie105]

81. Not so much a shit show . . .

as people voicing their opinion and not recognising an opposing opinion may be just as legitimate.

But no one has ever managed to change another person's mind on any topic on any forum.

I'm hoping some people in the White House are giving the current situation some very serious thought.
It's way too complicated for any of us.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

84. Well, I consider it a shit show,

but this is way above my pay grade.
Have a great upcoming week.

[DBoon]

86. Oh, give the Israelies some credit

They have not dropped napalm on Palestinian targets, like the US did in the Vietnam War

[nocoincidences]

87. You can't drop terrorists into Israel

and kill a bunch of innocent kids at a rave and kill a bunch of innocent family members in several kibbutzim and expect no response from Israel.

I mean, fucking really....

[BannonsLiver]

90. You misspelled "freedom fighters"

[nocoincidences]

92. You are so right!

Maybe because I couldn't get my fingers to type those words in any thread about Hamas.

[Butterflylady]

100. A response is one thing.

Going overboard is something different.

[Big Blue Marble]

121. Starving a population of two million

and killing, maiming, and orphaning thousand of children is not a response
it is a war crime.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

124. Good, we'll prosecute Hamas for war crimes when their war's over.

Until then, carry on.

[Big Blue Marble]

126. Hamas committed war crimes on Oct 7th.

And Israel has been committing them ever since. One does not justify the other.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

129. So, Hamas and their Palestinian supporters DO deserve a reaction deserving of war crimes?

Having just read up on what constitutes "War Crimes" and "Crimes Against Humanity" as per both the UN and Wikipedia, Israel has done neither, while HAMAS has done both.

Seems there's very clearly a "Bad guy" here and it ain't Israel.

[nocoincidences]

138. So Israel should have bombed

Palestine for one day and that would be "justified"?

Fuck that. Not even.

Israel has the capacity to flatten Palestine and they haven't. That is restraint.

People who FAFO lose awareness about the range of responses that are possible when they FO.

Israel doesn't have to be nice. And IMHO they have been way too nice.

[TexasDem69]

161. That is such bullshit

Israel has been waging war in a densely populated area in an effort to root out terrorists and prevent future attacks by those terrorists. If Israel wanted to commit genocide it could have dropped a nuke or two and been done with the issue.

[Big Blue Marble]

174. The world knows that Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza:

your denial means nothing.

[EX500rider]

175. " The world knows that Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza" Western countries disagree

In Europe, only the Muslim nation of Turkey has publicly stated its support. No Western country has declared support for South Africa's allegations against Israel. The U.S., a close Israel ally, has rejected them as unfounded, the U.K. has called them unjustified, and Germany said it "explicitly rejects" them.

But if you want to side with Turkey & Iran etc...

[Aussie105]

89. To help you clarify your thinking:

Pick one of the following choices:

1. HAMAS killed a large group of Israelis. It is a group of evil killers and should be stopped by any means possible.

2. The IDF action is killing thousands of Palestinian civilians. It is a group of evil killers and should be stopped.

3. The war is pointless, both sides are to blame, a permanent ceasefire is needed.

One choice makes you pro Israel, another pro Palestine, and another humanitarian.

[NickB79]

95. For anyone picking #3, you still have a hard question to answer

How do you establish a permanent ceasefire if Hamas, whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel and all Jews globally, is left as the defacto government of Gaza? Because they've repeatedly said they'll repeat Oct 7 if they get the chance.

How do you establish a permanent ceasefire without removing Hamas from power?

[Aussie105]

99. You picked option 1!

I could easily turn your statement upside down, but I won't bother.

Solution? White House and the UN are thinking about it even as we speak.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

101. Solution is simple: Eradication.

The fewer HAMAS there are, the fewer human shields they can use. Sure, it will suck for a few months for those human shields, but eventually HAMAS and their supporters will be exterminated like the vermin they are.

Civilian casualties suck. People who throw civilians into combat scenarios with the enemy suck more. It's just a matter of warfare and attrition.

[0rganism]

110. Sure does suck to suck, eh?

For all our lofty pretensions to the contrary, I guess humans just suck at diplomacy. We can put people into orbit and even set foot on the moon, but resolving this situation without mass casualties remains entirely beyond our meager capabilities.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

113. That's the war Hamas and their supporters want, mate.

So that's the war they get. War isn't pretty, but naked violence has solved more issues in a single century of history than diplomacy has in millennia. Violence is the language of true peace.

[0rganism]

147. Wow, that's complete nonsense "mate"

Your answer is to give Hamas what they want and have un-Hamas shoulder almost the entire price. Try harder. Please.

> naked violence has solved more issues in a single century of history than diplomacy has in millennia.
Which century is that? If you say "20th" please prepare to back it up. From what I've seen, naked violence begets more violence and long-standing grudges that only become increasingly difficult to unravel over time. I'll take a millennia of diplomacy over a century of naked violence any day.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

150. What Hamas "wants" is eradication of Jews.

I oppose that. Unfortunately, many on the simpleminded TikTok-educated side of things don't.

I'll eagerly say "20th century", and include "21st", "19th", "18th" "9th", "5th", "2nd", all the way back as far as recorded human history, and can bring the receipts on demand (with some time to properly cite sources). History is VERY clear on a great many things, especially wars, and more often than not has the documentation to prove it. I'll type it slowly, so it's very clear; You are wrong.

Please, as the common vernacular is, "Try me".

[0rganism]

163. Then Netanyahu is playing right into their hands through journaled atrocities and negligible PR

Perhaps the primary difference in our positions is a disagreement over what we might call "solved" as in "naked violence has solved more issues". This may save you some time rounding up receipts, as you might call them. Just remember as you do that every war which has ended has done so through some measure of diplomacy. One might argue that a particular physical conflict led to circumstances where a solution was possible which arguably didn't exist before, that's a matter for evaluation in its own context.

Specifically, I think we are looking for a type of solution that involves agreements between people with severe differences that might otherwise lead them to commit acts of violence.

To me, a peaceful solution indicates a circumstance in which disputes are less likely to arise than before, and when a dispute or ambiguity does arise, a fact-based reference to said solution can be agreed upon by the parties involved that enables some continuity of endeavor without resort to physical conflict.

Do you concur? Feel free to elaborate on mine or state a better one if you have it handy.

> I'll type it slowly, so it's very clear; You are wrong
Got it. We disagree, your opinions and analysis differ from mine. Now can we resolve this relatively minor dispute without hurling explosives at each other? I'm fairly confident we can, prove me right.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

167. Okay, I'll bite.

Got it. We disagree, your opinions and analysis differ from mine. Now can we resolve this relatively minor dispute without hurling explosives at each other? I'm fairly confident we can, prove me right.

I think we can, and I think that on the most extreme fundamental level, we agree with one another. But for tonight, it's been a long night and I'm about to settle in to cuddle with my wife. I hope you'll forgive me if I put this off at least for a day, as I also have shopping to do tomorrow.

Until then... Here's hoping some fucker in power manages to sort all this shit out and stop the killing, one way or another.

[0rganism]

173. Thanks for the conversation, we can continue later

I think it's likely we do agree on many things, some of which even relate to our previous discussion. I wish you sound and peaceful rest.

[NickB79]

104. I picked no such thing

I merely extended option 3 to its logical conclusion.

If you can't answer my question, it leads me to believe option 3 isn't really an option at all. And simply saying the White House and the UN are thinking about it is intentionally vague to the point of worthlessness.

[0rganism]

103. Fortunately there exist skilled professionals who could work on answering such questions

Option #3 allows for diplomatic efforts toward possible answers that the other two do not

[NickB79]

108. You have faith diplomats will convince Hamas to revoke their charter?

That would be fantastic, if possible.

But promises of peace in the Middle East through diplomacy have been promised for generations now with no such luck.

After all, some people thought they could defeat Hitler with diplomacy as well.......

[0rganism]

116. I have more faith in diplomacy than slaughter

> That would be fantastic, if possible.
Sure would, glad we can agree on this much.

> But promises of peace in the Middle East through diplomacy have been promised for generations now with no such luck.
Then humanity needs to dig deeper and try harder. Violence and destruction are rarely the only answers to our problems, although they all-too-often remain the first option selected in the name of Decisive Action.

> After all, some people thought they could defeat Hitler with diplomacy as well...
If we choose to remain bounded by the social and political constraints of the 1930s, well, that is also a choice. Much as they might like to be thought of as such, Hamas is not Hitler, anymore than Gaza is Germany or Israel is Europe.

[TheKentuckian]

180. What evolutionary leaps do you think have occurred in less than a single lifetime

that would leave us so unbounded from very similar constraints as then?

It is bizarre to call anyone out for refusing to make what you deem to be choices that you cannot identify but insist are clearly there with the application of even one sided want to and elbow grease.

That is wish casting.

Nothing always works, not even a whole socket set.
A hammer, a level, or a saw are the appropriate tools for their tasks and not even the flex head extension will make the slightest difference in the socket set getting those jobs done.

[0rganism]

186. Technology comes to mind

Biologically, not so much, but our species' true calling card is technology; it's created by us and for us and we shape realities around it. We are gifted creators and craftworkers of the animal kingdom. We build vessels that navigate the planet's oceans as needed, we build vessels that travel to the moon and back, we can survive and even prosper in many terrains and climates, we shape the world around us in ways that other species do not. Other animals make complex dens and nests and some even organize socially, but oh our technology is a thing to behold.

"A lifetime" is not really a standard unit, so think back 100 years. What has changed since then? We have sailed to the moon and split the atom, we peer so far out into the universe that distances are measured in light time and so close into the essence of matter that distances become probability fields, we converge on building miniature stars to harness their energy, we approach the point of creating artificial life birthed from pure logic. Manufacturing, transportation, electrical distribution, computation, media, telecommunications, medicine -- we have done so very much in a century. We've made incomparable amazing progress on a wide range of frontiers. A century ago, we did not have worldwide access to video feeds from independent journalists around the world. A century ago, Gandhi had not yet nonviolently liberated India from the fading British Empire. We have come far indeed.

And yet peace eludes our species. In the end it eluded Gandhi and a divided India. I continue to be amazed that this very obvious goal remains so very difficult for us to achieve.

Call it "wishcasting" if you like, I have a strong feeling we can do better. Maybe we need to have an Apollo-Program-style effort put into world peace. We humans can pull off some amazing stuff when we come together to build, even for a short time.

Yes, there may be some jobs the socket set cannot be expected to do, but with the right tip it may stand in for a screwdriver. It's hard to tell what's impossible in such a complex environment as human interaction; given how much control we assert in our environment, at least we can explore the solution space a bit more before deeming some highly desirable circumstance forever out of reach.

[malaise]

118. And it's the only one that makes sense

I’m ready to jump off this planet.

[Butterflylady]

115. I keep reading about how Hamas wants to complete destroy Israel and the Jewish people.

No one is EVER, EVER going to destroy or completely wipe out the Jewish people or Israel. That is a fact. That is just ludicrous. As far as Hamas attacking Israel again, I find that impossible now that Israel has learned a lot from this past attack.

The most crucial thing Israel has to do is get rid of Netanyahu and his war lovers.

[NickB79]

119. On Oct 6, no Israeli seriously believed Hamas could kill 1200 of its people

And then it happened a day later.

Never, ever say it can't happen again. That's the height of naivety. Hatred can drive ingenuity to new levels.

[TexasDem69]

162. What makes you think that?

And what percentage of dead Jews do you find acceptable? You understand the Nazis killed 2/3 of all the Jews in Europe?

[Sympthsical]

96. Anti-Western contrarianism often leads to illiberalism

Not always, but like 90% of the time.

The West is the beating heart of liberalism. It is not without sin, nor is any place on earth. However, it is noteworthy how often anti-Western thought finds itself running with full abandon into authoritarian clown shows that corrupt and invert liberal values until you're . . . oh, I dunno . . . running interference for a group of fascist, theocratic lunatics who lust for genocide and would show the world extremely quickly just how racist, misogynistic, and LGBT-hating a place can be when given the opportunity.

It's one thing to regret war, mourn the dead, and seek practical solutions to ease and stop suffering. It is something else entirely to align yourself against liberalism because of warped grievances that have been distilled down into spite by hollow knowing untried by the tangible.

The antisemitism that characterizes this is really just the cherry on top of what is, at base, a total shit sundae of incoherent rage ideologies.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

97. Anti-Westies are called "Tankies" or "Werhraboos". Soviets or Nazis respectively. n/t

[Voltaire2]

193. Nope. Neo-stalinists are 'tankies', but sure toss everyone opposed to our global military hegemony

in with people who think Stalin was a working class hero.

What's next, an anti-woke rant worthy of Bill Maher?

[betsuni]

169. [phone]

[The Magistrate]

224. Damn! That's Good

[JCMach1]

102. I am taking a 3rd way. I f'ing hate Hamas AND

Netanyahu with pretty much the level of ire.

I stand with the people on both sides, but I don't see a positive way forward unless both Netanyahu AND Hamas are destroyed.

[LeftInTX]

105. The majority of Israel's citizens are non-western!

80%..This include about 20% Palestinian Arabs, Bedouins, and 70% Mizrahi Jews. The Jews are majority Iraqi, Iranian, Yemenite, Kurdish, Libyan, Moroccan, Tunisian, and Algerian Jews. They were kicked our of these countries and now live in Israel. European Jews are a minority.

[Aussie105]

127. Shows how dangerous oversimplifications can be.

"Israel is Western, Palestinians aren't". No, not really.

[Arazi]

120. Hamas Health Ministry says 26,422 people

The IDF says of that number approximately 9000 are Hamas fighters.

So now we’re down to 17k.

Approximately 10% of the rockets from Gaza have landed on their own people. How many of their own people have Hamas killed?

Furthermore Hamas was executing civilians who were fleeing to the south of the Wadi. How many more did they kill?

Israel says they’ve killed 1000+ Hamas fighters in Israel proper - where are they accounted for?

Personally in my experience, it’s literally impossible to make any accurate count of deaths in a war zone. It’s just not possible to count down to the precision of single digits.

I’m with Joe Biden on this - the Hamas figures aren’t trustworthy.

Carry on

[Hellbound Hellhound]

122. 25k civilian deaths is a damn fine number for a war.

Even excluding the human shields, Hamas fighters disguised as civilians, child soldiers and suicide bombers, those numbers are very well within tolerance for a slow, methodical, careful war designed to avoid civilian casualties.

Well done on Israel and may they continue forwards as long as they need to.

[Arazi]

128. The actual number is probably 10-15k civilians

And yes, considering Hamas’ entire strategy is centered around having as many of their people dead, especially women and children, this is pretty fucking low.

Not gonna convince the pro-Pal gang but anyone aware of warfare recognizes Israel is doing well under this very awful urban warfare strategy of Hamas

[Hellbound Hellhound]

130. Please, they're not Pro-Pal. They're HAMAS puppets.

At this point the HAMAS propaganda machine has their hands so far up their ignorant asses that there's no turning back for them.

Even the most basic of Internet historians can tell you any number of civilian deaths under 100k is fucking FANTASTIC for both modern and primitive wars, but to suggest any number other than 0 is an offensive insult to those decrepit troglodytes.

I swear, the dumbing down of America and the world at large continues apace, fueled by this "Five second TikTok" mentality of news-aquisition.

[Skittles]

164. "down to 17,000"

omfg

[Arazi]

166. "almost 30,000"

omfg

[JI7]

125. The people in Iran don't support their terrorist supporting Govt, so why do you ?

The ones actually living in Iran and even the diaspora around the world.

Today it's their govt killing them . The US doing bad things in the past doesn't exist what their govt is doing to them and others.

Most Iranian dispora are very pro West.

And the people in Iran support Israel.

Over 40 percent of the US is non white and this is increasing . Many of these are descendants of people that were colonized and enslaved .

The anti west talk has lost any meaning. And Muslims were invaders and colonists also.

[LeftInTX]

148. I second that about Muslim colonialists!

Ottoman Empire anyone?
Genocide? Got that covered too!

[betsuni]

172. Imperialism, colonialism, slavery, wars as uniquely Western racism things is useful for Both Sides propaganda.

History, except for the bad things the U.S. did in the past, doesn't exist! The G.W. Bush, Obama, Biden administrations (and of course Hillary if elected) all the same, all old evil white warmongers with their oligarch and billionaire pals lusting for eternal wars and genocides against non-whites.

That really works some people up into a Them vs Us don't-vote-for-Democrats frenzy.

[claudette]

131. However

I believe you are right.

[Kennah]

135. No, the West does not own the planet

Do you instead prefer that Russia or China exert influence over the world? Or Hamas? Or the Saudis?

[Hellbound Hellhound]

136. The answer to your question is "Yes" without reservation. n/t

[tritsofme]

139. Seems to be exactly what they would prefer. Tankies are going to be tankies, no matter the decade.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

140. Fucking tankies. Screwing world politics for damn near a whole century now. n/t

[leftstreet]

170. DURec

[BannonsLiver]

197. Wow this grave dancing thread is still going!

[Aussie105]

201. As a productive discussion, it never really got off the ground.

I never liked these 'I am right, you are wrong!' threads.

So the 'war' continues, seeing there is no solution in sight.

When it ends, and where to after that, no one knows.

[JohnSJ]

203. Which is why these discussions were designated to the Israel Palestinian group for

those who wish to pursue that line of thinking

Unfortunately, that no longer exists, so it is anything goes