Cursive writing is not being taught in much of America.

[Cyrano]

Cursive writing (longhand writing) is no longer being taught in schools in many states. Children are taught to print, (capital and lower case), and to use keyboards, but that's all. And this isn't happening in red states only. Some blue states have decided that being able to write the English language in longhand isn't important.

Perhaps it's just me, but I think this is insanity. If you can't write out the English language in longhand, how will you be able to read it?

The Declaration of Independence is written in longhand. The Constitution is written in longhand. Evidently, unless they read printed versions, these documents will be nothing more than encoded, "ancient" documents to much of Generation Z, and generations to come.

I can come up with countless reasons why it is important to retain cursive writing as part of our universal education. But I'd rather hear you thoughts on this. So I'm going to shut up and listen to your answers. I may even jot down a few notes here and there to your replies.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. It's a boomer super-power. . . . . nt

[diane in sf]

40. Along with being able to drive a vehicle with standard transmission.

[CTyankee]

63. I can, but I'm old and I really wouldn't like to start doing that again.

It's a real PITA.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

158. I am 75 years old and have only ever driven cars with standard transmissions.

What's been interesting over the years when I go to purchase a new (replacement, not necessarily brand new) car, is how many of the sales people have never met a woman who could drive a stick.

I am happy to report that the last time I bought a car, in 2019, and I told the salesman I wanted a stick, and told him the specific make and model (I wanted a Honda Fit), even though he didn't have one of them on the lot, he talked to me for a bit, did not try to interest me in an automatic, said he'd call when one came in. Two days later he called to tell me they'd gotten one on a trade, and would I like to look and test drive it. I was willing, even though I really, really wanted a brand new Fit. We did the test drive, and somewhere during it he mentioned that 2017 was the last year Honda put a CD player in that car. I was sold on the spot.

There are several things I like about a standard transmission. The most important is that I have a lot of control over the car. The second is that (again, I'm 75 years old) at some point I will need to consider giving up driving. Once I can no longer drive a stick, that will be it. I think if you drive an automatic that point may be harder to figure out. And honestly, I'm ready to stop driving now, except that I don't have good public transportation where I live. I do anticipate going in to independent/assisted living by age 80 or so, and that should solve that problem.

[dem4decades]

203. My wife and I both can drive a stick, our 3 boys can't. We have an old 5 speed convertible, it's fun.

We did meet a guy that would only buy a stick for his kids when they started driving, he figured with the wheel in one hand and the stick in the other, there was no way they could be using their phones while driving.

[llmart]

206. "many of the sales people have never met a woman who could drive a stick."

They must be younger than us (I'm 75 also), because "back in the day" (as the young uns like to say) when girls were getting their first car, it was fairly common that we wanted a VW bug! It was my first car. Both of my female roommates had them also. I bought one having never driven a stick, and now I laugh at my younger self and how uninformed I was about all things related to cars. In fact, the first time I stopped to get gas the gas station attendant (remember those?) had to tell me where the gas tank was located.

I haven't driven a stick since I got rid of that car, but I'll bet it would all come back to me through pure muscle memory.

[OAITW r.2.0]

160. Tried to teach my kids....neither figured it out.

Their opportunity was a 2007 6 Speed Passat. They just didn't connect to the manual/human aspect of the idea of gear changes.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

174. When my son was learning to drive,

he had a hard time because both of his parents drove stick shifts, and he was simply not able to master the stick. Okay, he's on the spectrum (what used to be called Asperger's) which accounts for a lot. So I helped him acquire an automatic transmission car. He was able to learn to drive and become independent.

For what it's worth, I pushed him into getting a car because he was living at home, attending the local community college, and I didn't think I should be driving him forever.

So anyway, he learned to drive, bought the car, and started his life.

A couple of months later he came to me and said, "Can I try driving your car now?" Sure, I said.

He nailed it. He was no longer terrified of all the many things that go into driving a car, the number one thing in my opinion is being able to pay attention to everything all around you. He could now do the basics: start, stop, slow down, read traffic signs and street lights, everything. So I gave him the basics of shifting and he was perfect. Afterwards, every time he was over at the house, he asked if he could drive my car. Then, perhaps a year after he acquired his first car, the automatic, he came to me and said, "Mom, will you help me buy a stick shift car?" I was flattered, happy, and impressed. And of course helped him buy the new car.

Here's the thing that I never would have expected: he is a far better driver in a stick shift car than he was in the automatic. Honestly, while I am a huge proponent of standard transmissions, I would never predict that driving a stick makes a better driver. I do understand that my sample is exactly one person, and most people are just as good in either kind of transmission. Although I'll point this out: Drivers will complain (understandably and rightly) about road conditions ins crappy weather, especially if it's somewhat icy. I'll ask: Did you shift to a lower gear?" Invariably they stare at me as if I'm speaking Martian. "No." Oh, well then, you are not bothering to use the tools your transmission gives you. Meanwhile, if road conditions are not good, I simply stay in a lower gear. And have a whole lot more control of the car.

In all the many years I've ridden as a passenger in a car, I've only once, and once only, had a driver of an automatic go to a lower gear. Wow.

[Prairie_Seagull]

211. In traffic, in hilly terrain. It's a special kind of skill.

Seattle was a great place to teach my kids back in the day. I taught them, however they both have automatics.

[Emile]

201. I taught my son to drive a three speed CJ5 Jeep

when he was 13. That was his ATV out here in the country.

[GuppyGal]

2. What is also insane is that this 21 yr old at my job couldn't figure it out at all and I had to rewrite it...

my penmanship is not sloppy. I think it's important to learn longhand because I think it helps you write better...if you decide you like to print instead then you can use it but I think longhand should be taught as an important writing tool and skill.

[happybird]

10. That is nuts!

The letter shapes in cursive aren't all that different from printed letters, so between that and context clues. you'd think they be able to figure it out.

I thought the whole "kids can't read clocks" thing was hyped up internet nonsense until I noticed one of the teenagers at work kept asking me what time it was. There was a wall clock right there in the kitchen. I assumed he just couldn't see it from his station. Then he asked me why I'd answer "quarter till six" instead of saying "five forty-five." He was genuinely annoyed and perplexed. That's when I realized he had no... mental or visual concept, I guess it would be, of a clock face. No concept of quarter hours and half hours because he had only ever known digital clocks. It was mind blowing.

[rsdsharp]

16. Boy, he's gonna be in trouble when the nurse asks him to draw 2:15 on the nice blank circle!

[Alpeduez21]

127. Probably can't read a sundial either, the horror. n/t

[GhostHunter22]

143. ...or work an abacus.

Sad.

[Lochloosa]

169. Wait till he's handed a slide rule.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

176. Meh.

Slides rules haven't been used for something like 50 years.

[redqueen]

213. The abacus is actually extremely helpful in learning math

And with brain development in general.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

175. When I was in fourth grade,

the teacher knew that probably half of us didn't know how to read a clock. This was in something like 1958. All clocks were analogue. That teacher spent part of the first week carefully teaching us how to read a clock.

I am so grateful to her for that. But of course, in recent decades, digital clocks have completely changed thing. Perhaps fourth grade teachers should be spending some time teaching the old system, just so that if a young person is told something like "It's a quarter to four" or "half past six". So long as they understand what's meant, that's good enough.

Of course, fifty years from now almost no one will be left alive who knows that old system. And honestly, that's not a tragedy. It's simply how things change over time.

[ProfessorGAC]

26. I Use Cursive At School...

...all the time.
Never once has a kid tell me they can't read it. They might not to able do it, but they can figure it out.
Someone saying they can't is just being lazy. If a 12 year old can figure it out, a 21 year old could.
In fact, I've noticed that at the junior high level, kids are learning cursive on their own, and then using that ability as a bragging point!
But, you're right. They aren't teaching it. If they did at the earlier grades, there'd be more kids at 13 using it. (I only do junior high & HS dates.)

[canetoad]

128. Cursive with a dip pen and ink?

I can't recall being allowed to use a ball point pen at school until we migrated to Australia in 1965.

[ProfessorGAC]

129. Nah!

White board marker.
In grade school, we used pencil. By 6th grade we went to pen.
In HS, pens were mandatory, and if you crossed out and made changes, you had to initial it, to show you made the change yourself. Of course, papers needed to be typed starting 2nd semester, sophomore year. (Everyone took a typing class first semester 2nd year.)
Don't think I ever used a fountain pen. I could be remembering that wrong, though.
I got a good fountain pen from my parents when I got my first masters degree. I don't think I used it on anything but checks.
In junior high, I see almost no pens. #2 pencil or the mechanical types are all I see.

[getagrip_already]

3. 𝓌𝑒𝓁𝓁, 𝒾 𝑔𝓊𝑒𝓈𝓈 𝒾𝓉 𝒽𝒶𝓈 𝒶 𝒸𝑒𝓇𝓉𝒶

𝐼𝒻 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶𝓇𝑒 𝓉𝓇𝓎𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓉𝑜 𝓀𝑒𝑒𝓅 𝓂𝒶𝑔𝒶𝓉𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓇𝑒𝒶𝒹𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓎𝑜𝓊𝓇 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓊𝑔𝒽𝓉𝓈.

[haele]

74. Not fair, that's a font.

Until AI can do a proper font that links lower and upper cases within individual words, cursive and script fonts look like shit.
Give me good old fashioned calligraphy. Our High School wrestling coach, a former Marine Master Sargent who spoke in grunts (literally) taught Calligraphy and Drafting; he wrote the most beautiful Copperplate Cursive I've ever seen outside of professional stationary designers - on the blackboard in standard school chalk. And he never needed guide lines or a ruler, he could write on a perfectly straight and level plane.

Haele

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. As the way and reasons we transmit information change, we discard older techniques naturally.

There are plenty of important documents that only a few people can read in the original.

Also, cursive requirements have been increasing.

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/more-states-require-schools-to-teach-cursive-writing-why/2023/11

By the mid-2010s, as many as 46 states and the District of Columbia adopted the standards. Consequently, cursive writing instruction waned. But within the past decade, statewide cursive requirements have been trending upward.

In 2016, 14 states required schools to teach cursive writing. During the 2018-2019 school year, that number jumped to 19. Currently, 21 states require some sort of cursive handwriting instruction, according to mycursive.com, a website that tracks cursive writing requirements nationwide.

[redqueen]

214. Research seems to show it helps with brain development

Thanks for posting - this is encouraging news.

I wish we weren't so quick to dispose of old methods. Imo kids should learn how to use an abacus early too - for the same reasons.

[jimfields33]

5. I couldn't agree more.

I don’t understand the thinking of not learning cursive. It’s a basic which explains the lack of the three. “R”’s reading, writing and arithmetic. Get back to basics and the child will thrive.

[Goodheart]

6. I'm 70 years old, so of course I can read and write it. Pretty well, actually.

But I won't miss it. It won't be a great loss at all... It's never been used in books, not in magazines, nor in newspapers, nor on websites, nor on legal documents....

It's just fluff. Superfluous. Unnecessary.

[Cyrano]

9. Interesting. I just jotted down a note on that.

[KarenS]

12. I whole-heartedly agree. nt

[elocs]

17. I'm 71, so obviously I used it in grade school and can read it, or most of it that is legible,

but other than my signature, I haven't used it for nearly 50 years. The point of writing anything that is to be read by others is for it to be able to be read. There's just too many chicken scratches that get to pass themselves off as "cursive". So I don't miss it and don't need it. Cursive is just a relic from a different age just like the horse and buggy. You may mourn it's passing but you'll need to deal with it. Life goes on.

[Jilly_in_VA]

20. I'd actually prefer

that children be taught to write Italic script. My European and British pen pals all wrote in that and I found it amazingly easy to read. I attempted to teach myself to write it but unfortunately now my handwriting is a weird blend of cursive and Italic, blurred by 30 years in the medical field so it looks as bad as a doctor's handwriting. Maybe that was why my grandson couldn't read it!

[Cyrano]

42. I don't kow what Italic script is, but

I love anything that increases ones ability to communicate with others and thus, broadens the mind.

Thank you so much for mentioning this, Jilly_in_Va. It's my new homework assignment.

[tornado34jh]

80. Cursive and Italic are similar, but the former has more loops and curls and the letters are connected

Italic is where the letters are slanted as in this example: Three blind mice ran around looking for cheese But they are not connected. I will say however, that in some languages, particularly those that use Cyrillic, the italic/cursive form does change shape depending on language or the type of font used.

[edisdead]

57. Agreed

[Xavier Breath]

104. Well said.

I quite using it years ago. If I need to hand write something I just print. My cursive was never that neat anyway, so it's just easier for whomever has to read it as well.

[redqueen]

215. Incorrect.

It helps with brain development and motor skills.

I for one do not support the continued dumbing down of students.

[Goodheart]

223. There are many other things which help with brain development and motor skills.

Teach those instead of teaching something unnecessary and useless.

[redqueen]

227. Which things are you referring to?

I am interested to know which activities help as much as the ones which are shown to help via actual scientific research.

It is interesting that schools started dropping cursive in 2010, and starting in 2017 reading skills started plummeting. I would love to see more research into these areas.

[Aristus]

7. The longhand version of the Declaration of Independence was just for bragging rights.

The printed version is the one that got the word out. The very night the wording was approved, the Declaration was sent off to the printers, where they ran off 200 printed copies for distribution to various locations where it would be read publicly for the benefit of the illiterate.

Mass media is what matters.

People thought so little of the longhand version of the DoI that they stuck it in the window of a post office, in the full glare of sunlight for decades, leaving us with the faded scrap we have today.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. Called The "Broadsides"

There are still some in collector hands & are worth a ton. At least thirty grand.

[Tanuki]

58. A guy in my town found one in a thrift shop several years ago

and bought it for $2.48. He had it evaluated and sold it at auction for a small fortune.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna17302444

"A rare, 184-year-old copy of the Declaration of Independence found by a bargain hunter at a Nashville thrift shop is being valued by experts at about 100,000 times the $2.48 purchase price.

Michael Sparks, a music equipment technician, is selling the document in an auction March 22nd at Raynors' Historical Collectible Auctions in Burlington, North Carolina. The opening bid is $125,000 and appraisers have estimated it could sell for nearly twice that.

Sparks found his bargain last March while browsing at Music City Thrift Shop in Nashville. When he asked the price on a yellowed, shellacked, rolled-up document, the clerk marked it at $2.48.

It turned out to be an "official copy" of the Declaration of Independence — one of 200 commissioned by John Quincy Adams in 1820.

He didn't know he had such a valuable piece until doing some online research and then having appraisers at Raynors' offer an opinion."

[ProfessorGAC]

64. Outstanding!

I checked after my last post. There is one on an auction site in low-rated condition. Still was $32,000.
If someone had one in high condition, I can believe it's worth a lot!

[Tanuki]

69. Meanwhile, the guy who donated it to the thrift store

in the first place, after his wife bugged him to clean all the "junk" out of their garage, was undoubtedly kicking himself.

https://www.deseret.com/2007/6/22/20026018/declaration-moves-from-rags-to-riches

...."Two days before Sparks' lucky find, another Tennessean possessed the article, hanging unnoticed on his wall in the garage. Stan Caffy's wife asked him to clean out the garage and ditch all the junk he'd acquired through the years. He reluctantly took the old Declaration of Independence off his garage wall and donated it, along with other odds and ends, to the thrift store. He bought it for $10 at a yard sale 10 years ago."....(more)

[ProfessorGAC]

113. What A Drag

No wonder shows like American Pickers have an audience.

[LeftInTX]

73. There are still non-printed documents out there, such as family letters.

[Mariana]

145. And if someone wants to read them

they can either learn to read cursive on their own, or they can hire someone to transcribe them.

[c-rational]

105. Interesting points, esp. about the DoI in the post offfice window, and yet

the people who wrote the Declaration wrote it in cursive. i give some credence to the idea that learning cursive helps the thinking process. I am trying to think of a great writer, speechwriter or author who does not write script, and am sure there are some, but I am glad I learned it even if I am the only one who can read my notes/writing.

[redqueen]

216. Literacy matters. Cursive writing helps kids' brains.

So did the abacus.

I do not agree with the effort to further the dumbing down of society.

[Jilly_in_VA]

8. One of my grandsons

can't read cursive. I wrote him a graduation card several years ago and when he opened it he asked me (privately) to read it to him because he couldn't read what I wrote since it was cursive. He's now 22.

[Cyrano]

15. Great example.

When I send greeting cards to someone, I always try to pick ones that don't have any printed words in them so I can write my own more personal thoughts.

[SarahD]

11. I had to learn it.

But I was not good at it. I could make it look good, but I got yelled at for being too slow. My teachers would gush about cursive that was artistic and ornate, but hardly readable. It was taught as some kind of art form, which explains why many kids tried to avoid it. The Germans had this same discussion when they dropped their old ornate lettering and went to Italic characters. I suppose they're still arguing about it.

[Cyrano]

93. Good for you, SarahD.

The more you read/write it, the faster you'll get.

Most people who learned cursive as children don't care about the penmanship. They can read just about anyone's scrawlings.

One of the great problems among and between humans is forms of communications and cursive writing is one of those forms. Why we would limit the ways in which we can all communicate with each other is beyond my comprhension.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

13. Bring back hieroglyphics!

[Jerry2144]

30. Cuneiform or cave paintings

I learned cursive long ago but never use it. Everything by hand I do in my field must be printed

[fernlady]

14. I agree with you completely

My daughters can't read my cursive, yet I have been praised all my life for my good handwriting. I can read the letters my grandparents, who married in 1888, exchanged while courting. My girls can not.

There was a NOAA project a while back asking for people who could read the copperplate handwriting of ship captains from the 1800's. They wanted to transcribe the ships logs to glean as much weather and current information as possible to help with research.

I'm sure you can come up with similar examples. Why would we deliberately cut our our younger generations from our own selves?

[Mariana]

146. I'm surprised you didn't teach your daughters to read cursive

since you consider it to be so important.

[BlueTsunami2018]

19. I do not understand the obsession with cursive writing.

I, of course, was taught it but I never use it outside of my signature. Never.

It’s completely unnecessary. Block letters are much more legible if you have to hand write anything, which you really don’t anymore. Everything is on a keyboard.

I’m sure the oldsters were furious that no one was using calligraphy anymore when cursive came into vogue.

[Dorian Gray]

198. Benefits

1) It can prime the brain for learning (neural connections)
2) It's quicker than block print
3) Handwriting in general is better for memorizing material (and cursive is quicker than printing)
4) Being able to control for cursive is a fine motor skill that helps with other development.

Anyhow, an article from 2020:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/202010/why-cursive-handwriting-is-good-your-brain

[Silent3]

21. The only thing I use cursive for anymore...

…is my signature, and dollar amounts on now-very-rare paper checks.

Even though I see the value of teaching cursive, how effective will teaching it be if it’s rarely or never used in real life after learning it?

[Goodheart]

23. That's a good point. Teaching it now is just a waste of teacher time and materials.

[NewLarry]

67. Absolutely!

And don't let them get away with "It's good practice". Practice for what?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

161. But can you read it?

If you can, the fact you almost never use it is irrelevant. It's the younger generation not being able to read it that's the issue.

[Silent3]

170. Yes, but I also encountered it frequently outside of school

I’m not sure how well the skill would stick if it’s taught in school but doesn’t come up often in the rest of a student’s life.

Anything but the neatest, cleanest cursive (which sure isn’t my own) definitely slows me down.

I studied Arabic briefly… no getting away without cursive there!

[Cyrano]

22. Here are some pretty good reasons from google

Click on the link below and read the first few posts. They're very enlightening.

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+cursive+writing+important&sca_esv=601452934&source=hp&ei=h7myZcjMFfLnkPIP_OChgAs&iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZbLHl3vSPmNXX15w85kVG9M9zS4zOzQq&oq=why+is+cursive+writing+imp&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihp3aHkgaXMgY3Vyc2l2ZSB3cml0aW5nIGltcCoCCAAyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSIZtUIMQWOlLcAF4AJABAJgBgwGgAc0RqgEEMjQuMrgBAcgBAPgBAagCCsICEBAAGAMYjwEY5QIY6gIYjAPCAhAQLhgDGI8BGOUCGOoCGIwDwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICERAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGMcBGNEDwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBjHARjRA8ICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAgUQLhiABMICDhAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGNQCwgILEAAYgAQYigUYhgM&sclient=gws-wiz

[Cyrano]

29. Cursive writing and critical thinking are interlinked.

Here's one google entry. There are many more google entries drawn from different sources.

How does cursive writing help the brain?
Not only is cursive good for speed of writing, but it also is shown to improve brain development in the areas of thinking, language and working memory. Cursive handwriting stimulates brain synapses and synchronicity between the left and right hemispheres, something absent from printing and typing.Mar 31, 2021

Teaching cursive writing helps improve brain development, should ...

columbiamissourian.com
https://www.columbiamissourian.com › opinion › teachi..

[Easterncedar]

56. Also good for developing fine motor skills

I saw that surgeons are having more trouble because they don’t get the training in childhood and can’t get the fine motor aptitude in later life.

[Clash City Rocker]

192. That's funny, since most doctors' signatures are illegible

[Goodheart]

76. Lots of MORE USEFUL things and practices also improve brain development

For example, science experiments that could be performed except that the student/teacher time for them has been taken up by useless cursive writing.

[Goodheart]

82. Clever use there of "interlinked" as though critical thinking skills depend on cursive writing.

They most certainly do not. And critical thinking skills can be taught with more useful and productive activities.

[Donkees]

25. Learning to write in cursive is shown to improve brain development in the areas of thinking, language and working memory

Cursive handwriting stimulates brain synapses and synchronicity between the left and right hemispheres, something absent from printing and typing.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/30/should-schools-require-children-to-learn-cursive/the-benefits-of-cursive-go-beyond-writing

Scientists found that cursive writing and drawing activated brain areas important for memory and the encoding of new information and, therefore, helped “provide the brain with optimal conditions for learning.” This was not seen in the subjects who were typewriting.

The conclusion reached was: “We suggest that children, from an early age, must be exposed to handwriting and drawing activities in school to establish the neuronal oscillation patterns that are beneficial for learning. We conclude that because of the benefits of sensory-motor integration due to the larger involvement of the senses as well as fine and precisely controlled hand movements when writing by hand and when drawing, it is vital to maintain both activities in a learning environment to facilitate and optimize learning.”

https://www.waldorfeducation.org/news-resources/newsarticles-of-interest/articles-detail/~board/member-news/post/latest-research-on-cursive-handwriting

[intrepidity]

38. Thank you

I was going to post similar. My belief/experience is that, when writing, thoughts and ideas flow better when using cursive vs. print; so, the natural conclusion would be that there's an effect going on in the brain. Then I learned that research concurred.

How do kids that don't know cursive sign their names?

[Donkees]

60. It becomes easier to tap into a flow state where creativity and focus are amplified,

where you are able to visualize various facets of a situation and make new connections.

[JCMach1]

147. The same claims used to be made for diagramming sentences

There are any number of other activities that kids could be doing that would have a much greater effect.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

171. I have gotten into discussions, read arguments, with

people who think that diagramming sentences isn't at all useful. Personally, I think things like diagramming sentences teaches A LOT about the language.

[Donkees]

200. Cursive is still taught in private schools, some public schools, and is making a comeback

October 17, 2023 - Governor Newsom signed a bill that will require cursive instruction in first through sixth grade.

Now that AB 446 has been signed, learning cursive is going to be new for students and for some teachers.

"For thirteen years our teacher education programs have said cursive is not part of the standards so we have quite a chunk of teachers who have not taught it and who haven't needed to teach it and some who probably were not taught it themselves," Soriano-Lentz said.

"A lot of the neurodiverse and disabled kids I've worked with actually do better with cursive," Hankoff said. "I've read that it has something to do with a different part of the brain that's the same part you use for drawing and those flowing movements can really help kids- they don't have to keep picking up the pencil and replacing it and where on the page to place it. I'm judging this from their words and their work."

https://abc7news.com/cursive-california-schools-governor-newsom-teaching-handwriting/13926546/

[llmart]

207. I'm not being snarky here, just curious...

A lot of posters are talking about all the other things teachers could be teaching instead of teaching cursive. Could you give me some examples of subjects they are not teaching because they have to teach cursive? Obviously, this only applies to teachers who are required to teach cursive writing.

Example: Ms. Teacher says to administration, "I could really use those 20 minutes I spend teaching cursive to my students for _____________ (fill in the blank).

My two nieces are in their mid to late 30's and neither one know how to write in cursive or read cursive. When they send me a note in a card I always think they're 6 years old again, that's what their "writing" looks like. Also, both of them are elementary school teachers.

[Susan Calvin]

220. I feel one of the most useful things I ever learned was diagramming sentences.

The visual really helped with understanding the structure. For me, anyway. I must say that I was kind of primed for it, having learned to read way before I started school, and reading books way above my grade level. So I kind of had an intuitive grasp, but, as I said, I really liked the visuals.

[JCMach1]

234. It was a complete waste of time for me. It neither helped me develop

Reading skills, or fine motor skills.

Almost as useless as phonics... Another one of the right's pet projects these days.

[Susan Calvin]

240. Phonics? How do people even learn to read without phonics?

Before you learn to read, you already know the words from listening and talking. Learning to sound them out is just a shortcut to being able to read words that you already know.

[JCMach1]

244. In depth discussion here

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/19/focus-on-phonics-to-teach-reading-is-failing-children-says-landmark-study

[Susan Calvin]

245. After having read several paragraphs,

This seems to be saying that emphasis on phonics only and not allowing teachers to use their own judgment is the problem, not phonics itself as a tool.

From my own experience, phonics allowed me to figure out words I already knew for myself. From my late husband's experience, his son struggled terribly with California's whole language approach, so my husband taught him phonics at home, which solved the problem. YMMV.

[JCMach1]

246. Phonics and basal readers almost destroyed me as a student

In elementary.

It was and is total non-sense.

You do understand that Hillsdale and the Christofascists are the ones pushing this curriculum?

[Susan Calvin]

248. Well, if that's who's pushing it,

Then I imagine it's more than just plain phonics. Anyway, that's enough of this discussion for me.

[JCMach1]

247. What it's saying is more than a decade of pushing phonics in UK

Was a failure...

And here we are letting Hillsdale College push this and the rest of their curriculum down everyone's throat.

Hell no and thank you, NOT

[LAS14]

230. Ditto

I was gearing up to reply to the OP, but I'll just endorse yours. My son teaches reading to kids with difficulties, and he says there's a clear, if mild, benefit to reading and writing cursive because it helps you process the word as a whole.

[Donkees]

232. At one time public schools offered a quality education incorporating the liberal arts

even for the youngest students. That helped integrate and strengthen various brain pathways and develop fine motor skills, drive memory and focus attention. Learning this way made it easier to visualize whole words as you were writing.

[sakabatou]

28. I only use cursive for a signature

nothing else. These days, you hardly write by hand unless it's for some test/essay.

[Think. Again.]

31. If you had told me when I was younger...

...that some day we would be communicating mostly by using our thumbs, I would not have believed you.

[JT45242]

32. Other issue is fine motor control...

There are better uses of time rather than fight, especially boys, the lack of fine motor control. Why get kids frustrated over something that there are plenty of other ways to get the information. As for the old documents like the declaration of Independence, I read it in times new Roman or some other font as a history major.

Most kids graduating HS can touch type just fine. They can take notes on a laptop computer as well as you can long hand write and maybe faster.

Taking time away from this laborious and tedious process means that time can be spent on other skills that are more important.

[gay texan]

133. I learned fine motor control

By building models of cars, taking things apart, and playing with electronics/cars.

Hand writing has always been awkward and to some degree painful. I can type fast than i write.

[electric_blue68]

235. Left handed by any chance? I am. I use a half hook position to write cursive

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

163. There's research out there that indicates

taking notes by hand (cursive or printing) is far better than typing notes on a computer. Apparently the way the brain engages with handwriting is very different from the way it engages with typing.

[hunter]

217. I was a science major. My notes were usually full of math equations, sketches, graphs, etc.

They still are.

I'm not sure how anyone takes notes with a computer.

I've tried graphics tablets but still much prefer pen and paper.

When I'm writing at the keyboard I keep everything as simple as possible, using Markdown, which works on any computer that has a text processor. I suppose I could use a laptop for taking notes in an English or History class but it still seems to me much too restrictive.

When I'm writing with pen and paper my fingers often remember things the verbal parts of my brain don't.

And seriously, ask Albert Einstein, if you are drawing a curve on a graph or making a sketch, some of that information is actually being translated into motor memory in a way that compliments visual memory. Eventually you end up with an intuitive understanding, or a gut feeling, about the maths you most commonly practice.

[bamagal62]

33. I was told by someone at the post office,

If you want to make sure your mail gets there on time, write it all in print. Not cursive.
Many younger mail carriers can’t read the cursive writing as they didn’t learn cursive in school.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

165. That advice has been out there for at least 30, maybe 40 years or more.

It's not that younger mail carriers can't read the cursive, it's that cursive can sometimes (and always has been) a bit tricky to read, and when trying to decipher things like the city or state name, it can go wrong. One of the reasons ZIP codes were invented was to make it a heck of a lot easier for the Post Office to know where a piece of mail should go.

I think if you simply put the ZIP code and the four number add-on, a piece of mail would get to the correct person. Hmmm, I'm going to have to try that out.

[bamagal62]

168. True.

And the fact that some people’s handwriting, whether cursive or print, is not legible! Sometimes mine is pretty awful!

[Redleg]

34. I can't even read my own cursive nowadays

I write in cursive so infrequently that I can barely make it legible. My students would think I was writing in a foreign language if I used cursive in class.

Neither of my kids learned cursive (20 and 18 year years old).

I have read a bit about the value of hand-written notes and pictures to help with coding and recall aspects of learning. I know it helps me.

[patphil]

35. I use cursive because I can write faster than I can print.

Also, like my longhand written signature, it's more personal.

[happybird]

59. I remember reading somewhere

that most people end up using a hybrid of print and cursive once they relax (aka: not being graded on penmanship) and come into their own writing style. I do. It flows out of my pen faster. That's when I actually hand-write anything these days. Had to endorse a Christmas check from my Aunt the other day and was barely able to recognize my own signature. It's like my brain has forgotten how to tell my hand to write lol.

[Disaffected]

36. IMO cursive has (rightfully) become

an anachronism. One of the first things we learnt in engineering school was to print rather than "write". Since my cursive was hard to decipher anyhow, I seemed completely proper to me to abandon it entirely, which I did except for my signature.

[brush]

37. Sad that future generations won't be able to read the nation's actual, original, founding documents...

[Mariana]

148. People who want to read old documents can learn to read cursive on their own.

People who need it for their jobs or their hobbies will have to learn it, in the same manner that people learn to read schematics and patterns.

[Clash City Rocker]

193. I learned cursive when I was a kid, and couldn't read most of them

Language and calligraphy have changed enough in two centuries to make it difficult.

[ripcord]

39. If the goal is to convey the message

Printing is much clearer than cursive.

[madaboutharry]

41. My favorite memory from school was learning cursive writing.

I like to practice penmanship in workbooks for adults. It’s a hobby of mine, it’s very meditative. After not that long you will end up having beautiful handwriting.

A mail carrier told me that people should always print names and addresses on their mail. He told me that many people working in the postal service can not read cursive and mail gets delayed because of it. It will be put aside until someone who can read it comes around to read it for them.

[Happy Hoosier]

43. Not this stuff again.....

Can you read this?



I doubt it.

Things change. Deal with it.

[JCMach1]

44. Neither is the abacus...

Or how to trim quill pens and dry fresh ink...

It is not needed, or wanted.

I had it in elementary and it never taught me anything but to hate trying to write in cursive as I naturally have little freehand artistic ability at all.

[Goodheart]

226. Using the abacus does indeed improve critical thinking and motor skills

and the abacus used to be taught in public schools. Where is the cry for returning it to classrooms? There isn't, and there shouldn't be... because the abacus has no practical use in the modern world. Same for cursive.

I fear that many educators would like to keep cursive because it's so easy to administer and requires little skill to actually teach... unlike more useful and more brain-beneficial activities like code writing and graphic design.

[brooklynite]

45. I haven't written cursive in 30 years...nor have I had a need to read it.

Time marches on.

[rlexx]

46. Careful Cursive Writing is a MAGAT Buga-boo

Apparently, there are many Right-Wingers who believe that the US is on the brink of a complete collapse because American students are not being taught cursive.

I'm left-handed my cursive sucked; I switched to printing in Junior High which was a relief to my teachers and college professors. In fact, my great Aunt who was a grade school teacher from the 1920s until her retirement in the late 60's told my mother and me that my printing was some of the most beautiful that she had ever seen.

[sinkingfeeling]

47. Agree. How do you read the letters sent home from your

grandfather in WWII?

[Mariana]

150. You go buy a book for ten bucks, and learn to read cursive.

If you can't be bothered to do that, you hire someone who has done that to transcribe them for you.

[swong19104]

48. Reading ability does not equal writing ability

There are people who can read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic, but most likely can't write them. Handwriting is a skill, much like tying shoes and using knives and forks or chopsticks. The only way to keep good at it is to do it all the time.

I know, because I used to have very elegant handwriting (and still do), but I can't write for more than a few sentences before my handwriting just go to crap. It's because I don't do handwriting much anymore. I type most of the time, just as I am doing now. This mode of written communication will be with us for quite a while, and handwriting will become less common.

Maybe handwriting should be taught as part of history and perhaps art. More like calligraphy rather than as a utilitarian means of communication.

[pnwmom]

49. What do people do for signatures? nt

[Mariana]

151. Signatures don't have to be written in cursive. They can be lettered.

[Avis]

50. cursive is not easy for anyone to read

My son is a professor and hates getting cursive writing on anything. Way hard to read and too many versions.
I hear the trumpers argue that in the "old days" ... people could write... I bed to differ.. look at old census reports
and the hand writing... it is nearly impossible to read. I think some people have beautiful cursive handwriting and that is great, but the vast majority of people just don't and expect others to struggle to understand what they have written. Suppose even for all kinds of professions where errors in interpreting cursive writing is a big deal.

[Joinfortmill]

51. Some benefits of cursive. Read it and weep. (just kidding, but cursive is a good thing)

1. Cursive provides a flow of thought as well as a flow of words.
2. Cursive helps you focus on content.
3. Cursive gets the entire brain working.
4. Cursive helps you retain more information.
5. Cursive may help improve motor control.
6. Cursive will make you a better speller.

[DBoon]

52. How about teaching morse code, too?

or how to handle a horse drawn carriage?

[Easterncedar]

53. In my public office we needed to to read cursive

We get and send handwritten documents all the time, every hour of the day. It was beginning to be a problem for the younger folks. Some kept insisting that we needed to get rid of the handwritten paper in the interest of efficiency, which will no doubt eventually occur, but the edit history of electronically stored amended documents is easily lost, with all the political information it contains. Paper copies, cumbersome as they are, don’t vanish so easily.

[soldierant]

109. No doubt they might turn up

in someon's bathroom

[Ms. Toad]

54. It's been 2-3 decades since they taught cursive in school

When my daughter went through elementary school starting in 1995, they taught something they called D'Nealian writing - basically printing on a slant.

I agree that there is value in teaching it, but that ship sailed long ago.

As an aside, cursive writing is a barrier for non-native English speakers - especially ones which use a different alphabet. That hadn't occurred to me until I was teaching an Asian student and gave an assignment which included facsimiles of real documents (including some written in cursive) and she struggled to read the facsimile documents.

[phylny]

90. My children learned D'Nealian as well,

but as a precursor to cursive.

[Orrex]

61. It's an obsolete hobby skill

I haven’t used cursive in over three decades, nor have I had a need to use it.

In fact, I’ve seldom seen it used in that time, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a signature in formal cursive script.

Instead, I see highly customized hodgepodges cobbled together from cursive, manuscript, and assorted personal touches.

Certainly it’s not worth the 6,000 hours my school spent teaching us this quaint diversion.

[bucolic_frolic]

62. Printing is inefficient compared to cursive

I suspect some people can't write cursive. A sibling printed everything except his name. After a stroke they taught him round cursive writing. Don't know why.

[pnwmom]

65. Writing in cursive is an act that involves both sides of your brain, so maybe that's

why they were having him write in cursive after his stroke.

[Bev54]

66. Same in Canada and I had no idea until I wrote out my Xmas cards to the grandchildren

who are now in high school (My writing is still pretty good) and they couldn't read it. I was stunned. They only read printing.

[SYFROYH]

68. My kid (senior in HS now) learned cursive.

Now that he's met kids from other schools who didn't learn it, he thinks it's really cool.

[leftyladyfrommo]

75. Cursive is a lot faster. I use both but I

use cursive most of the time.

I also can read short hand. I can't write it any more.

[Prairie_Seagull]

70. I fought this battle and lost in my kids school at the turn of the century.

I have always believed that cursive writing has much to do with personal pride nearly as much the ability to write efficiently.

[Mariana]

155. You didn't teach them at home?

[Prairie_Seagull]

209. Sorry, What?

If there is some confusion. What I mean is I believe kids take pride in their cursive handwriting more than it is generally given credit for.

[Otterdaemmerung]

71. Gen X here, for reference.

I think that cursive should still be taught, primarily so that students will be able to read documents and fonts that are written in cursive. If they choose to eschew cursive for their own use afterwards, then they're certainly free to make that decision. I just don't see how having more knowledge or more skill is a bad thing. I personally use printing and cursive interchangeably.

I feel I must address a couple of the comments, though:

"I’m sure the oldsters were furious that no one was using calligraphy anymore when cursive came into vogue."
Calligraphy only means a decorative style of writing in general, and can be printing or cursive. It's a style of writing that predates cursive.

"Can you read this?"
No, because I can't read Middle English, regardless of the style of writing.

[Happy Hoosier]

84. Put aside that it's middle english..:

That style looks f writing is difficult for modern readers to decipher. That style uses some letter forms that are just not recognizable to modern readers. I can’t read French, but at least I can tell you what letters are used.

I CAN read Middle English and I have a lot of difficulty reading the Ellesmere Chaucer

[Alpeduez21]

121. I can't read cuneiform or hieroglyphics

Hasn’t hurt me in the least

[paulkienitz]

72. I gave up writing cursive when I was about 14

and I'm hardly alone in this among friends my age, who all got taught cursive.

Maybe we only need to teach reading cursive, so letters from your grandma are intelligible.

[Goodheart]

86. Careful... folks around here will say you lack critical thinking skills.

The "critical thinking skills" argument for teaching cursive is BOGUS. Almost every mental exercise improves critical thinking skills, and there are doubtless ENDLESS other practices that could be taught in school that students would find useful in later life. Cursive writing is hardly useful these days.

[paulkienitz]

130. about as convincing as the latest ad for an Android app that's supposed to help you fight congnitive decline

I'm seeing some rather off-smelling pseudoscience being thrown around here. You'd do about as well by playing Mozart for your houseplants.

[Polly Hennessey]

77. Believe it will be taught here in California. Also, critical thinking skills

[Ford_Prefect]

78. I go back to the question raised by electronic life style as a whole: what happens when the power goes out?

Even temporarily.

The reason cursive has faded has to do with the rise of keyboard and digital technology.

I find that many people today cannot solve basic problems which I was taught as a child. They depend on cue-defined answers rather than actual data and information. If there isn't a handy Icon to choose from they are stumped. Many cannot ask a useful question which challenges the existing paradigm.
Its like the new cars with no way for ordinary people to service them, or start them. If the omnipresent screen doesn't work they have no idea what to do. If the battery goes dead you cannot put them in neutral to move them because the park mode is locked by a solenoid.

There are many real benefits to digital living. However the Human being is wired for and uses analogs. Cursive English is a form of hand crafted language we are built to use as mentioned above. Using it includes very important cognitive growth, awareness and processing which helps problem solving. Ask any native American how learning and using their tribal tongue affects their engagement in their community, culture, and the world at large.

[Abolishinist]

189. An interesting thread, but you've nailed it, as well as some others.

In many ways, it does come down to analog v. digital. There are many who consider themselves to be music purists who sense the difference between analog v. digital.

And think of the difference between a love letter received in cursive vs print. Cursive writing is totally unique, you feel a relationship to the one communicating to you... an art form, if you will. Can you imagine being a soldier in, say, WWII, and receiving a letter from your one true love written in the style of MS Word? The emotional difference between a style that could only be from a unique individual, vs. one from Bill Gates?

[Jimbo S]

79. I learned shorthand

in ninth grade. How obsolete is that?

I learned cursive in third grade. I couldn't wait to learn, I thought it was such a "grown-up" thing.

Given that, I haven't written cursive since age 18.

[Chainfire]

81. I would have thought that shorthand would have been a great skill to own.

[raccoon]

197. I learned shorthand in high school. I still use it a little. I reviewed it during the lockdown.

But I can't do it fast. Wish I could, but that requires a lot of practice.

[relayerbob]

83. I stopped using it in grade school ...

60 years ago. I don't use hieroglyphics, either. Thought it was dumb then, and haven't changed my tune on it a bit.

Impossible to read, almost impossible to create text correctly. No two people do it the same. Completely irrelevant in this age of computers. I'm far more concerned about the lack of reading, math skills, history, civics (the Constitution has been transferred to standard print a LONG time ago - we need to teach how to understand it, not how to reproduce it), language skills, ethics, logic, and science. Oh, and let me add: art, music and adult living skills. TBH, offhand I can't actually think of anything less important to waste school time on.

[niyad]

85. I had read an article months ago about young people not being able to read

cursive, although they can all type and read print. I was not sure how wide-spread that was, until one of the young librarians at my preferred branch told me he could not read the list of books I needed to order. I told him that I knew my writing is very small, and I know that he has a visual issue that needs surgery. He said, no, he just could not read cursive. Several weeks later, he told me that it was getting much easier, as he practiced on my weekly lists.

[eppur_se_muova]

88. I learned to print before I entered school. I learned cursive ("grown-up writing") only in mid-early grades.

Everything before that was done with printing. Learning cursive didn't take up a whole lot of time, since we had already spent so much effort learning the printed alphabet, and the shapes were so similar.

A lot of people in this thread are exaggerating the time and effort spent on learning cursive, at least compared to my experience. I would never have considered it a sacrifice or wasted effort at all.

When I take quick notes, I use a mixture of cursive and printing, which makes my handwriting easier to read than straight cursive -- I tend to not to lift my pencil when writing cursive, even to cross t's, so it's not so legible. Of course the teachers were all right-handed, so many letters I had to work out for myself left-handed, and I can't say the results are very pretty. But you can't pick and choose if you haven't seen the options!

Is cursive *essential*? No, IMHO. Helpful? Yes. Best to learn it when you're young? Absolutely.

[eallen]

89. Whenever I read the Constitution, it is in print

Either on a screen or in a book. I can't remember the last time I saw a copy of the original. But, yeah, I would look at that purely for historical interest, not other kind of use.

Students today would find blackboards quaint. None learn how to work a mimeograph machine. Or how to feed a movie spool. Things change.

[Hope22]

91. I can think of many reasons why it is important but...

….if they refuse to teach/ learn it it will be the secret form of communication for the residents at the retirement homes of the future. We already know it so…A+!

I feel like if they drop cursive they should add Spanish in primary schools and on through High School….that, and music! Good for the brain!

[Goodheart]

92. Correct...

Time taken to teach cursive could be used instead to teach music, carpentry, painting, science experiments, puzzle solving, 3d printing, computer aided design.... ALL of which improve "critical thinking skills", and all of which are more useful than writing in cursive.

[birdographer]

95. Exactly what I was thinking

A magic code that only old people can read and write.

[Hope22]

131. 🤣😁😂

[lastlib]

94. No one is teaching how to make change, either.

When I tell a young cashier how much change I should get back, they look at me like I had two heads or something.

[Goodheart]

96. Not good to teach kids math if cursive gets overlooked!

/sarcasm

[Bernardo de La Paz]

204. I confuse them by giving them $10.25 for an $8.20 charge, for better change

They get flustered when they don't understand, and then the register tells them to give me a twonie and a nickel instead of a loonie and three quarters and a nickel.

They are barely able to add up four coins to make 80 cents anyway. How long until registers show a picture of the coins needed to make change?

[beaglelover]

97. I can't think of any reason to continue to teach cursive writing. As long as basic writing is still taught

I'm fine with that. I have not written in cursive writing in over 30 years and can't remember the last time I received something in cursive writing.

Typing is still the most valuable class I ever took in my education. I use it extensively in my everyday and work life.

Cursive writing is a dinosaur.

[ificandream]

98. One subject I absolutely hated.

The nuns were so freaking picky about the way it had to look.

[Goodheart]

100. And THERE'S another good reason for it die.

Who is a nun to say if somebody's penmanship is better or worse than anybody else's? Who is ANYBODY to say that? My loop is too narrow for you? Well, FUCK OFF!

[BaronChocula]

99. It's their world

and we have to get used to that. If you ask anyone from your own generation if they regret not preserving conventions from their parents era, they will probably say 'no.' Every generation thinks they have it down. We flout what came before us and disdain what comes after us. I throw my fist up in the air all the time at things that just won't matter after I'm gone. That's now I know I'm gettin' up there.

[Goodheart]

101. I think it's high time we start teaching a NEW alphabet that more accurately reflects the sounds we make...

and also get rid of spellings that make no sense.

[BaronChocula]

102. I think it's slowly happening

not so much with the alphabet, but with the way the youngsters text. They tend to simplify spellings and a lot of those simplifications will become standard eventually. I see what nieces and nephews post on socials and it takes me as long to figure out as it does for them to decipher cursive.

[Model35mech]

108. With or without 'sliding' vowel sounds found in different dialects of English?

I see more rebellion in Texas and Dixie if we only use an alphabet employing English of the American Midlands.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

177. Nice idea, but if words are spelled

as they sound, different parts of the country, and different English speaking countries, will spell words very differently.

[Shermann]

103. Out with the old, in with the new

Kids have had to learn how to use more and more sophisticated technology in their early years. Typing is in, writing is out. The use cases for cursive sound a bit manufactured to me, so drop that and focus elsewhere.

[WarGamer]

106. I can write in cursive... my son can write computer code.

Times change...

Having said that...

Teaching a child cursive AND a musical instrument is beneficial.

[JenniferJuniper]

107. Gen X here. We were allowed to

stop using cursive in the sixth grade. I've never looked back.

[Doodley]

117. What are the advantages?

[JenniferJuniper]

119. Speaking for myself,

printing was much faster and easier for teachers to read.

Aside from my signature I'm not sure I could even write in cursive if I wanted to. And I don't.

But typing is best for me.

[Doodley]

132. Thank you for your reply. Being old, I don't remember a time I couldn't write in cursive, so it's hard to

appreciate that it would be difficult to do. I write a lot---it's my job---and I hardly ever use a pen and paper. Typing is so much easier and easy to edit. Just because we can use calculators, does that mean we don't need to be able to add in our head? It seems like such a basic skill. I can't imagine not being able to write a personal letter, a thank you letter, a letter of condolence, or even a love letter, without giving it that personal touch of my own handwriting, that shows my own personality and the effort I have put in to it.

[Mossfern]

186. Agree....

I remember getting my first typed personal letter.
I was appalled.

Now people don't bother to write letters on paper at all.
I feel the same way about photographs.

There's nothing sweeter than discovering a box of photos or reading old letters from loved ones.

I guess I'm just a sentimental old biddy.

I write in cursive that sometimes attaches and sometimes doesn't - my "f's" have a loop on the bottom - definitely a hybrid that's unique to me.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

138. As a left-hander, my hand rests differently on the page when printing

When I wrote in cursive I’d get a big smear of lead or ink on my writing hand - I didn’t have that problem when printing.

[Doodley]

178. Interesting. I never thought of that.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

182. Keep in mind, some lefties

write with the hand at an angle that covers the page, leading to the ink smear. Others write more up and down, sort of like a rightie. No ink smear.

Years ago a read a book about handedness (right and left) and learned lots of interesting things. I'd long ago noticed that difference in how lefties write -- hooking, not hooking. Towards the end of the book the author talked about how she came to write the book. She herself was a normal rightie. Her husband was a rightie who hooked. Go ahead, hold your hand up, and do the hook. Got it?

Because the book was about handedness, she'd already discussed brain configuration. The vast majority or regular right-handed people have their handedness run by the left side of the brain. For most lefties, it's the opposite. The difference between lefties who hook when they write and those who don't, has to do with what side of the brain is operating what side of the body.

The author said that she noticed her right-handed husband hooked when he wrote. An extremely small percentage of right-handed people hook when they write. They're in the tiny minority of those whose right side of the body is controlled by the right side of the brain.

My son is right-handed. He hooks when he writes. I don't think I've ever come across anyone else who also does that.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

185. That's exactly it

I hook when writing cursive, but not when I print. I’d never heard of righties doing it, that’s interesting. Does he have the smearing problem on his hand?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

195. No, he doesn't have a smearing problem because

he's right handed, and even though he hooks when he writes, he's still writing with his right hand, and going left to right, so not going over what he's writing.

A right-hander hooking when she/he writes is extremely unusual, and other than the book I referenced, and no matter how many times I've told this story, I'm yet to have someone say, "Oh, yes, I, or someone I know is a right hander who hooks when writing." I'm currently 75 years old, have told this story many times over the past several decades. Not having anyone report another right hander who hooks is a very clear clue that it's incredibly rare.

[electric_blue68]

237. Lefty who uses a ?half hook. Idk about brain hemispheres...

(well, I know about brain hemispheres in general)

For me as far as I know it is a bio "mechanical" issue.
In general a right hander writing (cursive) is pulling their pen etc across the page. But a left hander has to push a pen across the page.

A half hook (and probably even more so w a full hook) lets me partially pull the pen across like a rightie. It's something I instinctively started to over a short period of time early on.

[electric_blue68]

238. Hmmm! Idk if I hook when I print. I do both

[electric_blue68]

236. Ha! Try learning Calligraphy (Art College) when you're left-handed...

a bit of a torture!

[herding cats]

153. Yep. Same.

Since I can read it, I have a retirement plan of translating for younger generations.

Nana sent you a card for your birthday with a message and a check, but you're not sure if she's happy with your life's trajectory or trying to help you make rent so you're not out on the street like aunt Phylis keeps projecting? Wonder no more! For the low price of USD $5 I will translate that ancient script for you!

[aocommunalpunch]

110. It's not in the curriculum, but I teach it anyway.

Having good script isn't just about reading and writing actual words, but all the motor skills inherent in learning how to do it. Care to guess how many paper airplanes are thrown around my room? Zero. It's not because I have good management. Well, not only that. It's because kids can't fold paper any more. I'm not joking. Cutting along a printed line with scissors is not a given in upper elementary. These fine motor skills are enhanced and mastered through skills like handwriting. Plus, the kids actually like showing off how well they can do it. I say bring it back.

[Fla Dem]

111. So when you are asked for your signature, will print be acceptable?

[Mariana]

156. ...

[TxGuitar]

112. So some young people cant' read/write cursive

So what. First of all, I don't believe it. Second, I work with a lot of older folks who can't touch type, who still hunt and peck like preschoolers. Touch typing is a way more important skill nowadays. Why can't the older folks catch up?
And ragging on people for not being able to drive a standard would be like ragging on people that can't drive a team of horses. Absofuckinglutely irrelevant. And I'll add that I can drive a standard, and spent years driving one in the UK and Ireland on the other side of the freaking car.

[GenThePerservering]

114. Cursive was useful before such an extensive print culture

as simple efficiency. Compositors were paid well to set type because they could read cursive quickly and accurately - it was not a given that those who could read could necessarily could read cursive, particularly the vast differences in handwriting. Good penmanship was important for communication as unless there was a printing press available, basically everyone hand wrote everything. A lot of people scrawled then as they do now.

With print methods being readily available there's no real reason to hang onto cursive - if a choice between the two, it's better to teach kids to print clearly, express clearly and keyboard well. Cursive is a fun, cool thing if one wants to make a hobby of it, a type of calligraphy.

Anyway, I never learned cursive very well despite having Palmer Penmanship in the old days - I ended up with a half print half cursive mash. It's a lot easier to read bad printing than bad cursive IMHO.

[betsuni]

115. When something in cursive is important to the plot of a movie I think about this.

They can't understand the note Humphrey Bogart reads in the rain at the train station in "Casablanca"!

[Doodley]

116. Ask young people what they know about the holocaust. This is part of the dumbing down of America.

[soldierant]

118. I'm 78, so of course Ilearned it

Last edited Sat Jan 27, 2024, 03:38 PM - Edit history (1)

but it has certainly never done for me anything remotely like the "benefits" several people have listed above, so I quit as soon as I could. And yet one of my college profs suggested that I should seriously consider a career in archaeology as a documents person (reading and translating.)

Sure, some of the skills associated with cursive are valuable throughput life. But there are other ways to get them besides cursive. Knitting, crocheting, and tatting work the fine motor muscles, and no doubt so do other crafts.

This whole conversation didn't take long to put in my mind an epsode of the original Star Trak - from Season 2 - episode 25 - "The Omega Glory." Te fact that those people had completely forgotten cursive (no doubt ot taught it for generations upon genertions) prevented them from remebering the words of the document ... but not the spirit and the meaning.

Back on earth, different people learn different things in different ways. And I don't just mean learning through seeing or listening or doing. I mean every person is different from every other person. There is no simple pedagogy that always works. And, by the way, I have also studied - and taught - calligraphy (which also didn't do any of those things for me, though I love it.) I am ore than ready to dispense with cursive.

[Rebl2]

120. I don't

know how many documents I have signed in my lifetime that requires cursive AND printing your name. Loans, opening bank accounts, my PO BOX, power of attorney for my parents, my drivers license, my will and on and on. It is ridiculous they no longer teach cursive.

[BadgerKid]

122. People in many walks of life used to "do cursive."

There are snippets on the web such as personal letters, handwritten receipts, and Ellis island manifests. It’s impressive.

[Rob H.]

123. Morse code and smoke signals or GTFO nt

[gay texan]

134. Morse code isnt even a requirement

In Ham radio these days.

[JI7]

124. I think learning multiple languages would be a bigger benefit

for students and the country.

cursive can be an elective course offered.

[GenThePerservering]

125. Replace it with semaphore. Problem solved. nt

[Alpeduez21]

126. In 2018 my daughter's 3rd grade teacher said her handwriting was messy

I said so what? My hand writing is messy her mother has messy hand writing. Furthermore, cursive is dead. Everything you show her is printed on a printer or put on a screenl in print. She may never put pen to paper in her life.

I can’t understand Morse code, semaphore, hieroglyphics, cuneiform, and a myriad of other styles of communication

The important stuff can all be found on the internet in printed form. This much ado about nothing

[Doodley]

137. It wasn't only about the writing. It's about learning a skill, dexterity, and discipline. Why learn fractions?

Why learn to use a Bunsen Burner? Why learn poetry? Why learn to climb a rope? Why learn algebra?

[Alpeduez21]

166. If it's about learning a skill, dexterity, and discipline

Wouldn't learning fractions, how to use a bunsen burner, reading poetry, learning to climb a rope or doing algebra take care of that?

[Doodley]

180. There is always more useless stuff to be learnt at school!

[Takket]

135. i learned cursive in school, i haven't hardly used it in at least 25 years

even in college in the late 90s everything was already being done on computers. I think script writing is more of a hobby for people that want to write stories or letters that they learn on their own. But kids are already not using this at all in their lives, and the world is still going. It is obsolete.

[mcar]

136. My 2 kids are 36 and 26

Both are successful members of society. Their penmanship is execrable. They both were taught cursive over the course of a couple weeks at most.

I recall saying to their 3rd grade teachers "make them redo their work so you can read it." Their responses? "They're boys. It's perfectly fine." I gave up.

In truth, they don't need cursive.

[jmowreader]

139. It's not on the high-stakes standardized test, so why would they teach it?

Call me crazy, but if you got rid of this notion that you can judge the quality of a school simply through a standardized test, and you funded the schools well enough that they're not floating levies to buy toilet paper, maybe we'd be able to have things like cursive writing taught.

[hack89]

140. Can't remember the last time I have written more than a sentence in cursive

It is an obsolete skill that has no real significance in the modern world.

And this is from someone with excellent communications skills who writes an awful lot every day.

[snot]

141. I keep part of my journals in cursive, part typed on the computer, and

I find that they enable very different kinds of entries, which are valuable to me in different ways.

Typing is best to just record a lot of facts or other data fast; but for a deeper dive – really thinking things through to their furthest implications, or flushing out inconsistencies, or delving into my imagination or emotions – cursive is much better.

I've used both cursive and typing for many years, and this impression seems pretty consistent. I think writing things out by hand helps you process things more fully. And if you're going to write by hand, cursive is lots faster and, imho, more pleasurable to write.

If I had to give up one of my journal versions, I'd give up the typed one.

[Xolodno]

142. Haven't used it in 30+ years.

Gen X by the way.

We spent half the day sometimes in class learning to write cursive at least once a week in grade school. Then you had to hand in all your writing assignments in cursive....and get marked if it was a bit off. Waste of time.

Ironically, typing was an optional course in Junior High, which I took. And computers were just starting to get into the class room. Made a good decision, for once.

I think back about all that time we spent learning how to write cursive, I think it would have better been invested in slightly learning another language. Just spend one day showing how the letters look in cursive and a few examples of sentences, hand out a cheat sheet and be done with it.

Push cursive into the art of calligraphy and make that an optional class. Somethings, like needing to ride a horse just fade with technology.

[kimbutgar]

144. When I want to leave a note to a teacher I'm substituting for I will write the note in cursive

That said, in California they are starting to require cursive writing classes and it helps kids slow down and concentrate which is good for brain development! The schools I substitute at are teaching kids cursive in second grade.

[hunter]

149. Learning it was torture, just one more thing that made school hell.

My mom made me take typing in the seventh grade. I was one of two boys in the class.

It changed my life much for the better.

My eighth grade U.S. History teacher hassled me about my atrocious handwriting but he was the last.

[PJMcK]

152. Long ago, writing was chiseled onto stones

Technology has advanced. You’re on a website where you type everything. Why should young people waste their learning time on an archaic method of communication?

[newdayneeded]

154. Next you're gonna tell me

the little bastards aren't gonna drive cars with a carburetor. That they'll pick that new fangled fuel injection stuff!!11!!

[OAITW r.2.0]

157. I can barely write my signature in cursive. Somewhere along the way. I started writing in capitol block.

A digital age artifact.

[JohnSJ]

159. They would need to have historical documents translated

[Mariana]

191. There's nothing wrong with that.

People who want to read historical documents for themselves will learn to read cursive. You can get a book for about ten bucks.

[kacekwl]

162. If it were my kids

I would teach them myself.

[IcyPeas]

164. makes me happy when I look on Reddit and see certain categories:

There are still people trying to learn this. Some do find it very difficult to learn. Personally I like cursive. In the late 70s I took a few calligraphy courses. I enjoyed it very much. So I maybe am biased but I'd like to see it taught again.

There are a few penmanship "subreddits"

r/penmanship

https://www.reddit.com/r/penmanship/

r/penmanship porn (* no actual porn)

https://www.reddit.com/r/PenmanshipPorn/

r/handwriting

https://www.reddit.com/r/Handwriting/

r/fountain pens

https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/

[Happy Hoosier]

167. I am a calligrapher myself....

… but I recognize that some skills lose relevance for most people. Simply put, there are other skills more relevant to most people today.

[redqueen]

212. That is very encouraging!

Thanks for sharing these

[Mosby]

172. A lot of younger people can't write out a proper signature.

And what they do write they can't duplicate, because they basically scribble out something as their signature. Kinda sad I think.

[49jim]

173. Cursive Handwriting

I replied to another thread the other day about cursive writing on DU.
I taught 3rd grade from 1971-77. The core curriculum was reading, math and cursive writing. We spent every day beginning in September learning to form each letter lower case and upper case.
I’m left handed and had to work hard to model the correct form….I expected it from the students so I had to do it as well.
I continued to write in cursive throughout my educational career as a teacher and elementary principal. I retired in 2002 and went on to teach part time at the local community college for 14 years. I did have several college students that weren’t able to read the comments I wrote on their papers!
I’m 74 and keep a daily list of things to do each day…..and I still write those notes in cursive.

[Silent Type]

179. Well, my generation can't chisel words into granite or write eloquently on parchment.

[dlk]

181. How do students learn to sign their name?

Have signatures become obsolete?

[Mariana]

188. Signatures don't need to be in cursive.

[dlk]

205. There's cursive and printing

Am I missing something? Long ago, people signed their name using an X. That can’t be what you mean.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

183. My mother was born in 1916. She attended Catholic schools as a child.

They taught cursive in first grade. She didn't learn printing until she was 18 or so and in nursing school.

She developed a script that was essentially printed letters connected to each other. It was always incredibly easy to read.

[ThoughtCriminal]

184. I quit using it as soon as my teachers let me.

What use is cursive, except a redundant skill that interrupts writing just when children are starting to master printing.

If cursive is so great, why does every form require you to PRINT YOUR NAME under the illegible signature that used cursive?

Why does this and almost EVERY website use print instead of cursive? Because cursive is HARDER TO READ even when it is done well.

Cursive write is perhaps defensible as art, but not as an effective means of communication.

[CoopersDad]

187. cursive writing is returning to classrooms across California. Why some local teachers say it never should have left.

San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria is set to deliver the State of the City Address tonight. What we're expecting to hear. Plus, North County farmers now believe they know what killed thousands of bees last fall. But there are still more questions.

And cursive writing is returning to classrooms across California. Why some local teachers say it never should have left.

https://www.pbs.org/video/wednesday-january-10-2024-dujv2o/

[DemocraticPatriot]

190. My cursive writing was never very good....

Sometime after I graduated high school, I seemed to degenerate into a mixture of cursive and printing---
and when I wanted to make sure I would be understood, I printed those parts of the message
that was back in the 1980s.... in letters and such, before I owned a computer

Now, the only thing I write in cursive is my 'signature'


But face it, nowadays everyone is composing on computers, and the message is sent to a computer and a printer which prints it out into a very readable document... and children learn that skill in their early years

Other than being able to read 'ancient documents' as you note,
I don't see much purpose in teaching 'cursive writing',
even though I was raised on it....

The world has changed a lot since then...
and as in my case, printing is much more legible than cursive
(which includes the word "curse" HAHHHHAHAHA)


I have only learned of this educational trend in the past year,
but after consideration it seems to be very logical to me




SPELLING, on the other hand, pisses me off, even on this site...

to two too
there their they're
lose loose

etc

[Straw Man]

194. I used to collect fountain pens.

It's a sacrilege to write anything other than cursive with a fountain pen, but when was the last time you saw anyone use one in the real world?

Without cursive, how do people sign checks? By printing their names? Eccccchhh ... Or does no one write checks anymore? I only use them to pay my taxes, but I enjoy the ritual of breaking out the fountain pen every April. Somehow it lessens the sting.

I learned to drive in a '62 Dodge Dart with a "three on the tree" manual transmission. That was all we had. It really wasn't that hard. I have since succumbed to the lure of automatic transmission, though, as a concession to age and creaky hip joints. My last standard shift vehicle was a Ford Ranger pickup that got totaled out from under me in 2010. I walked away essentially unscathed.

[raccoon]

196. I'm in my 70's and I don't think it should be taught any more.

If somebody wants to learn it, they can learn it on their own.

I'm left-handed, and in elementary school teachers fussed about my handwriting. I was using a right-handed desk, for God's sake. In that time and place, accommodation wasn't a thing. I also learned to use scissors with my right hand, out of necessity.

We don't need cursive any more.

[betsuni]

199. For people who think cursive is hopelessly out of date, well, so is anything written more than

a tweet.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

202. Now, next step is to teach doctors how to print

Not even boomers can read doctor cursive.

[Chainfire]

208. My Father ( b. 1910) learned Latin in school. No one was considered to be "educated" who could not read and

write Latin. Times change.

[redqueen]

210. Isn't there already enough scientific evidence to support teaching it?

It's sad to see the dumbing down of society is only getting worse.

[Cyrano]

221. Couldn't agree more.

I've made a living as a tech writer, a copywriter, and a fiction writer. It doesn't matter whether I'm using a quill, a pen, a keyboard, or a stone to etch words onto a cave wall. Writing has been my life. I can't imagine not being able to write. I'm a terrible public speaker. Those who are good public speakers, seem to be relying on whatever pops into their mind next. (Unless they're reading a teleprompter.) Conversely, writing, somehow, makes me think. It makes me reflect on what I'm saying and what I'm going to say next. And writing with a ballpoint seems to have the effect of making me think deeper and longer. (Pencils seem to be instruments that will allow thoughts to fade too quickly.)

Quills were slow. Fountain pens made you scrub ink off your hands a few times a day. And I can touch type at a reasonable rate.

Yet, I've found that writing cursively makes me think more about what it is I'm writing. I don't have enough knowledge of the human brain to know why this is so. Sometimes, I'll be out somewhere with friends and an idea that I want to keep enters my head. I have no problem with grabbing some available pen and writing out a few sentences on whatever is available. It only takes me a moment. I can't imagine ignoring everyone else while I take the time to print my thoughts on paper.

Whatever. If you feel that the alternatives to cursive writing are sufficient for your purposes, who am I to say you're wrong?

[redqueen]

225. I wish there was more research into these things

But no potential profits means few studies.

[Goodheart]

222. No, there isn't.

The argument here is that cursive writing "improves critical thinking skills".... well, SO WHAT? There are countless activities that improve critical thinking skills, many of which would have practical applications in the modern world, and many of which would be even better at improving critical thinking skills. I can name quite a few right off the bat... code writing, graphic design, culinary arts, and on and on. Teach those, instead. Yes, even to first and second graders. There are rudimentary versions of almost everything which young minds would easily absorb.

[redqueen]

224. No, it was demonstrated through peer reviewed research

To improve children's reading and writing skills vs the control group.

If you know of some other activity that has the same results please do share the evidence.

[Goodheart]

228. Once again, because you missed the point the first time around...

SO WHAT?

There are countless activities... USEFUL activities... which improve critical thinking skills. To insist that children must learn cursive to improve reading and writing skills is itself obviously bogus... or else we'd be insisting they hang on to every obsolete writing system under the sun. Heiroglyphics, anyone?

[redqueen]

231. Which things are you referring to?

If you could share the evidence that would be great.

All the ranting and raving and all caps lettering proves nothing.

[3catwoman3]

218. I have many letters written by my father's paternal grandfather during...

...his time as a soldier in the Civil War. They were written to his mother.

What a loss it would be if I were not able to read these pieces of family history.

[Mariana]

242. If you didn't read cursive and you wanted to read those letters, wouldn't you learn?

[3catwoman3]

243. A good point. I probably would have, as I am fascinated by family history.

I pretty much would have had to learn cursive twice - current style and the "fancier" form that was more prevalent at that time. They were difficult to read even knowing cursive, as my great-grandfather's handwriting was quite elaborate and embellished, as was the style back then, and some of the pages are quite faded.

For the faded ones, I ended up making photocopies, which I then re-copied as dark as possible. Some were still quite light, so I went over the photocopies with a pencil, just following the marks on the paper even if I could not read them while doing so. That did the trick for the most part, but there were a few items that remained obscure.

It was very interesting, and took a really long time - weeks, as I recall.

[Susan Calvin]

219. I defy anyone to print as fast as they can write longhand.

And I defy most people to type as fast as they can write longhand. That's what I use longhand for, taking notes. And I don't know what I do without it.

[Goodheart]

229. And shorthand is even better.

Why not teach Gregg shorthand instead?

[Susan Calvin]

233. In my opinion, because the only application of shorthand is to take notes.

Whereas longhand has other uses. And I can take longhand notes as fast as pretty much anybody can talk. Not verbatim, but pretty close.

[electric_blue68]

239. Well, I (at 70) never gave up my cursive writing even as a left hander. I print, too...

Yeah, my cursive can get sloppy. I use a half hook instinctively done over a relatively short time as a tween.

For me bio mechanical issues are the thing. A right hander mostly pulls their pen across the page. A left hander mostly pushes.

My hand always gets tired after one side of a page of cursive - where in I can draw for hours bc my hand is not mostly pushing. The half hook let me partially pull the pen like a rightie. Don't know why I never used a full hook.

My writing isn't great esp if I have to rush.

I do a fair amount of writing. Cursive is faster than printing but I do that, too.

Heaven forbid, I didn't learn to touch type (yes, i'm being snarky). We got dragged off to a different HS ?1/wk for half a year to learn typing. I don't remember whether it was the girls only.

I even tried on my own in my ?late 20's w a type writer at home to add clerk typist, since I did clerical work- but never could put the full effort into it. The clerical work was after leaving the commercial art field first time. I did learn a bit bc there were common enough words with a mix of two to three or four fingers that my muscle memory would work enoufh for them.

Typing, true, would be useful in college, in certain fields in science, journalism, et al. But back then ? '68, '69 it was still a thing for guiding (herding? 😄😡 ) young women into Secretarial jobs. One I swore as an artist I'd try to avoid. Since I went to Art College, I didn't do nearly enough writing as I would have for just about any other college curriculum.

Nothing intrinsically wrong, bad at all about it (secretary); stand alone as a job. A very helpful job that would have some variations depending on boss, and the field it was - but it was still quite tied into what kind of jobs women "should be" doing back then! (imho)

[EllieBC]

241. Same in Canada with some exceptions.

Older teachers in elementary schools will still teach it. My oldest was lucky enough to have a teacher one year from retirement in grade 3 who taught it.

My other two kiddos have not been as fortunate so I bought a bunch of workbooks and have taught them.

[Quixote1818]

249. How will they sign their names? Nt