Today in London at the pro-Palestinian, but definitely NOT pro-Hamas, rally today

[NickB79]

Link to tweet

Can we FINALLY drop the bullshit smokescreen that the pro-Palestinian protest movement isn't completely and utterly co-opted by Hamas, and fueled by raging antisemitism?

[mcar]

1. But, but Israel...

[madaboutharry]

2. And they cheered....

[tritsofme]

3. Terrorist sympathizers supporting their terrorist heroes. Disturbing, but not surprising.

[betsuni]

4. K&R

[EllieBC]

5. Context something something context

something Israel’s fault something something aspirational.

[mcar]

6. He's calling for massacring Jews

Who are the genocide-ers? Can we all condemn this?

Link to tweet

It doesn't leave my mind for a moment.

A very well-known Palestinian, who was also on Time magazine's 100 most influential list, stands in the center of London and calls for massacres against Jews.

It's not about occupation or a Palestinian state, it never was.
It has always been about the right of Jews to live, and the right of the State of Israel to exist. This is the anti-Semitic ideology from the river to the sea.

Unfortunately, most Palestinians support Hamas and this ideology and support the October 7 massacre.
And here, he shouts it in central London without fear. He wants to massacre Jews.

There will never be peace as long as the Palestinians openly declare that their goal is the destruction of Israel, as long as they focus on 48, and do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Now people like this guy are calling for a ceasefire, but they never stop calling for intifada and massacres.
They just want to do it without us being able to defend ourselves and fight back like we do now.

And so many people support them, hell he shouts to massacre the Jews in London and thousands of people cheer him.

Never again is literally now.

[sarisataka]

7. Same as they have been saying all along

I doubt we will see anyone condemn this. Too many agree with what he says.

[Ace Rothstein]

8. People like him are why Israel will not agree to a permanent ceasefire.

[Sympthsical]

9. Doesn't England have hate speech laws?

Where people have been prosecuted for incitement against race or religion in speech? Yes, yes they do.

So . . . uh . . . they just going to let the massacre the Jews stuff sit there then?

I bet they let the massacre the Jews stuff sit there. These speakers say these things, because they know they have a lot of support and/or they know people will pretend they don't hear it.

I have no idea where they've gotten the idea that people will pretend virulently anti-Jewish sentiments in these protests doesn't exist. Total mystery. I am unfamiliar with a world where someone would get that notion.

[EllieBC]

10. Those don't apply to everyone.

We’ve seen plenty of people making excuses for antisemitism in the US.

Hate speech laws in Europe rarely apply to antisemitism. Unless it’s coming from a white neo nazi. Anyone else? Nah it’s fine. It’s “protest.”

[Sympthsical]

11. France and Germany have a lot less patience for it.

And given their histories, it's understandable why they'd chafe at the idea of letting the anti-Jewish clowns get control of the circus.

Britain is . . . unidirectional in their speech codes, let's just say.

And think of how crazy it is to leave this alone in Britain, a country that does have a problem with homegrown radical Islamic fundamentalism. It doesn't take much to get some people to go from A to B out of religious zealotry and anti-western antipathy.

Could anyone imagine MAGA types publicly making statements hoping for the slaughter of minorities, getting cheered for it, and our side just sitting there going, "This is fine. I don't see the problem." It would never happen. We're still talking about Charlottesville seven years later - and rightfully so. Because it was an unacceptable abomination.

Yet in these protests, a lot of people are just shrugging. "Oh, that's just protestors being protesters!"

Antisemitism is always the exception.

[ExciteBike66]

12. The speaker posted his written speech on Twitter, he misspoke...

He meant that they should not normalize massacre (specifically Israeli massacre of gazans)

[cabotnn22]

14. Yeah, right

He "misspoke." Horseshit. He said what he said, and he meant it.

[ExciteBike66]

46. Good to know you can read his mind

[Butterflylady]

52. Yep, we gotta love those psychics.

[ColinC]

58. What he said is he didn't mean it

Does that mean he meant it?

Link to tweet

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If he said what he said and he said two different things, did he still mean it? Which one did he mean? Only the one that fits your narrative? Both? Or neither?

[NickB79]

15. And yet, the crowd cheered when he misspoke

Instead of going silent in stunned shock, and then booing him for suggesting such a horrible thing.

How very, very strange......

[ExciteBike66]

47. They probably cheered his whole speech

It's pretty clear the entire thing was not pro-massacre

[MarineCombatEngineer]

17. Yeah,

and I've got land in the LA bayous for sale.
Are you seriously defending this guy's call to massacre Jews?

[ExciteBike66]

48. Did you read or hear his entire speech?

[Butterflylady]

53. Don't you have it the other way around.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

56. If I had it the other way around,

you would know it, so I don't see how you could have interpreted it any other way.

[Eko]

13. You got me.

There have been times on here when I protested the killing of Palestinian civilians saying that the attack is way out of proportion. Your argument though has convinced me that all the time I was backing Hamas. How,, How could I have willfully chosen that? What in me led me to think that being against the killing of Palestinian civilians out of proportion was not utterly supporting Hamas? I mean look!!! You got the proof in full audio and video!!! Some guy at a Palestinian protest has said some stupid horrible shit and he is protesting at a pro-Palestinian event? That guy without a doubt carries the thoughts and beliefs of anyone who supports the Palestinians and protest's against their treatment and it makes them supporters of Hamas. It's so obvious. Its almost like that famous Christian dude, whats his name, that says they need to kill all the liberals so of course all Christians think that. So glad you opened my eyes.
Thanks,
Eko
PS, yes its and yes the attacks against Israel that have happened and are continuing to happen are horrible. Yes Israel has a right to defend itself. But I do support the Palestinian people, have protested their treatment and do not in any way support Hamas.

[Arazi]

16. Hamas isn't stopping until every Jew is dead

Weird how the pro-Pal crew keeps ignoring this 🤔

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218587388#post46

Nobody here believes civilian deaths are ok.

Let me repeat nobody here believes civilian deaths are ok.

Hamas though isn’t going to stop until they’re stopped. War is a horror. I fully agree Israel is being too indiscriminate with their bombing campaign. They are however between a rock and a hard place - an enemy that isn’t going to cease until they achieve an actual genocide, an enemy that is using their civilian population as shields.

The only way this war ends is when Hamas is either eliminated or so severely degraded they pose no threat to the Israeli state. As Israel sees it, the faster the better.

The fact that Kremlin propaganda is infiltrating the pro-Pal movement should alarm everyone tbh. Personally I believe they’ve been orchestrating the antisemitic propaganda from the start but now it’s so normalized it’s shamelessly blasted from the leaders at these rallies. It’s sickening and frightening for Jews and I’m dead cert its contributing to Israel’s hardline stance

[Eko]

19. Sorry,

I'm pro-Pal and have never ignored it.
Hamas isnt going to stop till they are stopped right?
I have advocated before on here and will do so again that the US need to take this over cause Israel is not doing it right. You seem to agree that they are not doing it right. They have American hostages and we would do a better job and not have as high of a civilian death count. You support that?

[Arazi]

21. Nope cause Joe Biden would lose in a landslide

I 100% agree Israel has botched their response BUT the antisemitic smear campaign revved up oh-so-coincidentally before Israel launched a single bomb. Orchestrated and launched in tandem with Hamas’ attack, perfectly timed to drive a huge wedge between Dems and hinder Bidens re-election

There are larger forces and bigger players moving behind the scenes and ignoring them is a mistake.

And right now, more than anything else, in the face of authoritarians uniting to try to bring the US down, I firmly believe we need the steady old hand of Joe Biden. I wouldn’t want US boots in Gaza because that would go sideways immediately as US troops accidentally kill lots and lots of civilians too (remember Mosul and Fallujah). We’re not necessary better than the Israelis tbh.

My view of all of this is sharply colored by my alarm about global realignments and larger forces moving on the board.

While I grieve the horrific civilian casualties (which I repeat aren’t even in the top 10 of war casualties from conflicts in the past 50 years), I’m taking the much longer view on affairs. We need to re-elect Joe Biden to ensure “democracy” - small d - even survives as a governing system. I wouldn’t do anything that would jeopardize his chances and I’m deeply suspicious of efforts that destroy him.

[Eko]

22. So its a political thing for you.

Not a right from wrong thing.

[Arazi]

27. Oh it's definitely both for me

All wars are political Eko. That’s just a fact

I don’t (yet) believe Israel has been totally unjustified. As I’ve mentioned, in comparison with other conflicts this isn’t even amongst the worst with civilian casualties

War sucks. It just does. Hamas’ decision to wage this war amongst their own people is on them however and I hold them responsible if we’re going to actually try to parse “right from wrong”.

[Eko]

31. No, they are not.

That is what a politician says, not someone who goes to war.

[Arazi]

34. You're 100% wrong there

I’m not interested in saying why I know that but I stand by that statement completely. Soldiers absolutely know when they're pawns. I’ll leave it at that

[Eko]

35. I would never call soldiers going to rescue hostages

pawns. I would call them hero's.

[Arazi]

39. Getting involved in the I/P conflict over 10 hostages won't happen

Sadly but it just won’t.

And you might call them “heroes” but I guarantee you’d be a lonely fan…

Peace out. Always a pleasure

[Eko]

42. I'll be a lonely fan.

I know a dog named after a seal. Crazy that I can say that. Most people wont get that. I'll always be the lonely fan for what is right. Getting our people and the rest of the hostages is right no matter what you say. I can ask why you support another country doing it but not us? How does that make sense? Right is right? Right?

[Arazi]

43. There have been American hostages in every conflict

Hostages in war is almost as old as war itself. This isn’t a new idea. I definitely want every hostage found and released. That is right. However these hostages are currently in a war zone in a foreign country. Again, I repeat, Joe Biden isn’t the PM of Israel and has no ability to usurp Israeli sovereignty.

I get that you’re upset at Israel doing what it feels it can to get hostages, destroy Hamas, and fight this war. I will say it’s easy to be an armchair general but I stand by my previous comments: I doubt we’d be much better than the Israelis in that situation, and American soldiers killing civilians in Gaza would destroy Biden's reelection chances and any hopes for a future 2state resolution.

I’m looking at the bigger picture and I trust Biden’s current course of action atm

[Eko]

44. Sounds crazy dont it?

You are all for Israel doing what it can do and I am for us doing all a we can do. Bibi isn't the PM of Gaza either is he? I am all for us doing what we should do. You can tell me how important this is but if you aren't willing to throw our own soldiers at this like I am then I have to come to the conclusion you don't take it as seriously as I do. You seem to be perfectly happy for a small country to right this wrong in a bad way instead of us becoming involved and do it in a better way. But hey, it might hurt Biden so lets not do that. We would be totally better and if you dont know that you dont know our military. What is the bigger picture? How much support has Biden lost over this? How much would he gain by becoming a legitimate party to the event and doing it right? Even if he sent in special forces and they rescued 10 hostages mixed with Americans and Israelis and killed a bunch of hamas. It would show that we gave a fuck, we had a duck in this game. Leaving Israel to take care of our citizens has not worked out too well so far.

[Arazi]

45. Beyond parody

[Eko]

23. Mosul was mainly Iraq and Kurdush fighters with American Bombers.

In Fallujah our civilian count was very low with less than a thousand. Neither of those are good for your argument at all. In fact one bolsters mine.
Eko.

[Arazi]

29. I still firmly believe US involvement would be a massive mistake

Maybe even fatal to the US as a country.

I trust Joe Biden knows what he’s doing and pieces are moving behind the scenes

[Eko]

32. Ok, Why?

[Arazi]

38. I already said I don't think we'd be much better at it

Urban warfare is always going to be a shitshow. Civilians will be killed. The kids and babies will be brutally crushed, mutilated and killed just the same with US guns as well as Israeli. We would “lose” even if Hamas ever gives up. And if you’re already (personally) mad at Israel and Biden for what’s already happened, I guarantee you the global rage at Biden/the US would explode if our troops were the ones blasting Palestinian families.

I also said I believe Biden would be crucified in November if he put boots into that conflict. None of us can afford that. Americans are rightfully wary of another foreign entanglement. We’re already on edge over Taiwan (besides Ukraine)… we can’t afford to get into the ME any more than we already are.

And honestly, if there’s any hope of a 2state solution at the end of this, I firmly believe he’s the only one who can get it done. But he has to win in November

[JohnSJ]

51. It would be a major mistake, and it would impact the election adversely toward us if we

took this over.

We cannot lose this election, because everything would be lost in that case, and why it is a balancing act.

[Hekate]

25. You seriously believe the US should "take this over cause Israel is not doing it right"?!

Quote: I have advocated before on here and will do so again that the US need to take this over cause Israel is not doing it right. You seem to agree that they are not doing it right. They have American hostages and we would do a better job and not have as high of a civilian death count. You support that?

Sorry, but that is one of the weirdest ideas I’ve ever heard. Israel is not Uncle Sam’s sock-puppet — it’s an actual country. In addition, we have not had a great history of success with getting involved with other countries’ wars uninvited since the end of WWII. Since that time wars never end — they go on for decades until we get exhausted, and as the saying about Vietnam goes, “Declare victory and go home.”

If we ever did any such thing in real life, I wonder what you would feel about the loss of American lives, the cost of the war, and the destabilization of the entire Middle East. I know how the Evangelicals would feel — they’d be ecstatic at the presumed fulfillment of a Biblical prophecy — and destabilization would just be the beginning of the Rapture as far as they’d be concerned.

[Eko]

30. Absolutely.

Are you saying that the Israel military is better than ours? Cause if you are you are the only person I have ever heard that thinks that. I never said that Israel is Uncle Sam's sock puppet, but they do have American Hostages don't they? Are you saying we should not go get them? You dont have to wonder how I would feel about the loss of American lives. I grew up in a large military town. One of the largest in the world. Half my block was military that I grew up with and this was during the Iraq/Afganistan wars. So, yeah, I got an Idea. As for how would the Evangelicals feel? Who gives a fuck. They are already ecstatic at what is going on and I would not advise on using them for political prognostications and direction in any way. I believe based on military history that we would do a much better job. All you have to do is look at what our president Biden is saying now to see that he would try to do a much better job. But whatever, I guess you dont think its important enough for us to get involved. Guess I just feel like Biden would handle this way better that Bibi but you think differently and that its just not that important.

[Hekate]

20. What you said, Arazi

And the circumstance that really salts the wound for me is that my online home is at war with itself over this.

I called an old friend yesterday. The arc of her life is the arc of the life of the State of Israel. In her outrage she said what I’ve been thinking: “They want to talk about the Palestinian women and children, and I’m sorry — but after the first few days no one talks about the Israeli women who were raped and mutilated before they were killed, nor about their dead children, nor about the hostages who are God knows where. Where is the world’s outrage for them?”

[Arazi]

24. It's only hardening Israel's resolve imo

If the entire world already hates you and believes the worst, before you even did one thing in Gaza after 10/7, it simply reinforces the “fuck it, they already think we’re shit so we’re doing it our way, global opinion be damned”. Israel has been maligned since its inception, nothing new.

And agreed 100% that the 10/7 terrorist attack, the dead Israelis, and hostages have been subsumed by the antisemitism now. Nobody gives a shit (if they ever did sadly). The anti-Israel protests/pro-Hamas celebrations started even as the slaughter, rapes, beheadings, burning people alive, kidnappings were still occurring. I watched in horror in real time that night. I was the first person on DU to mention the attack that night and stayed up watching all of the events unfold… 😢

[Eko]

26. Arazi comment to my original post and my comment to that post

Said all of that. I talked about the horror of the Israels killed, about the attack and continued attack, I talked about the hostages still there, and no one talks about them? The post above and after talks about them? And no one says anything about it? See post 13 and 19.

[Hekate]

28. My friend is not part of DU. I am. And I am often ashamed lately at the overarching DU response...

…to the Oct. 7 attack on Israel. We literally went to war with each other here at DU.

I never knew there could be so many rationalizations for an absolutely vicious attack on civilians, while all the while piously claiming to be “not antisemitic”… I am glad you have better vision than that.

[Eko]

33. Yeah that sucked. And it still does.

Everything aside, I think you come at it from an honest view and I do also.

[Butterflylady]

54. I'm glad you explained that,

Because some just don't understand.

[moondust]

18. Jeremy Corbyn addressed the crowd.

Some may remember him being suspended from the Labour Party in 2020 over charges of antisemitism. That's probably where some of the "antisemitism on the left" accusations stem from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

[Mountainguy]

36. There was never a difference

Gaza is Hamas and Hamas is Gaza.


I'll stop believe it when I see any pro-Palestinian people calling for the removal of Hamas with 1/100th the vigor of their attacks on Israel.

[Eko]

37. So just kill everyone there.

If Gaza is Hamas and Hamas is Gaza then kill them all right? Just a side of genocide?

[Mountainguy]

40. Israel is conducting the war that

Palestinians have been provoking for the past 75 years.

And genocide? If the Israelis were conducting a genocide they could have leveled every building in Gaza in a week. The talk of genocide is pure propaganda. Guess what, when there is a war it impacts civilians in the theater. When that war is being fought in a dense urban area it's even more. When there is no difference in civilian and military infrastructure its be that much more as well.

Israel is fighting a war that was started by Palestinians, and they are fighting it on the terms that Palestinians have set.

Kind of like the Confederacy starting a war and then being upset when Atlanta burned.

[MyNameIsJonas]

41. My posting history is clear: I do not put up with Pro-Hamas assholes. But I think he misspoke.

In the context of his lines, it sounds like he meant to say that we must not normalize massacre as the status quo.

[TheKentuckian]

50. No indication of any issue with the inciting massacre.

to indicate some anti massacre speech was being made so it sounds like he said what he said.

[sarisataka]

49. I predicted above this would not be condemned

Sometimes I hate being right.

[LonePirate]

55. How many protestors who called for a ceasefire also called for Hamas to surrender and release all hostages?

A few did but not very many. That tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

[ColinC]

57. His speech was about not massacring people. He clearly misspoke.

He says he misspoke and did not mean that. Nothing else in his speech indicates he was pro-massacre. But I like how people here are utilizing misinformation and distortion to smear the “don’t murder Palestinian children” side. Good job 👏

Link to tweet

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