I don't know how to explain my feelings about the USA without fueling accusations of anti Americanism

[EYESORE 9001]

I can start by saying that I love this country and all of its natural beauty, but it’s the people who would allow a despot to achieve power - again, and with full knowledge beforehand - and openly state their intention to vote for him.

I’ve been disappointed by learning about the dark aspects of US history, and my conscience won’t let me leave it alone. How can I, when Jim Crow-era laws are rising from the ashes and First Nations people are being swindled like it was still the 1870s? The present trajectory doesn’t bode well for the future.

While on the subject, I’ve never liked those who present as ‘the ugly American’ abroad. American exceptionalism and hubris are only marginally offset by the likes of the Peace Corps. Am I wrong in being embarrassed by the actions of fellow citizens who demand privileges based on nationality?

My list of grievances is long, ranging from ‘Christian’ nationalism to the military-industrial complex. I can acknowledge the contributions made by science and technology for the betterment of humanity around the world without approving of multinational capitalism destroying lives in the process.

For a long time, I’ve pondered turning my back on the nation of my birth for a more civilized society. The number of people who are okey-dokey with fascism has pushed me to actually consider emigration in a more serious way. And that’s where feathers get ruffled.

Not that my military service matters in this decision, but I put my life on the line for a long time in support of the US Constitution, and it causes great distress that practically half of elected representatives would choose to benefit a former KGB officer over a democratically-elected leader whose nation was attacked by the successor state to the USSR.

So, yeah, I’m considering leaving the USA, whether or not the worst thing possible happens next year. Some suggest I’m taking the coward’s way out - opting to cut & run instead of staying to fight for change. As I already mentioned, I’m trying really hard as it is not to display my contempt even more openly than I do already. I’m gonna get my ass kicked for my trouble one day. If I’m lucky. I don’t think I have to justify my decision to anyone - especially any armchair patriots who question my love for this country.

[Walleye]

1. What you have said is not wrong, we need people who see our faults honestly

You could go to another country but the United States is still a very big influence in the world

[snowybirdie]

2. If it suits you

To go, go. You can because we live in a free,country. Good luck. I choose to stay. Isn't it grand we have choice?

[snowybirdie]

3. If you care

To go, go. You can because we live in a free,country. Good luck. I choose to stay. Isn't it grand we have choice?

[Farmer-Rick]

13. If Trump becomes dictator

How long do you think we will have the choice to leave? The brain drain alone could be seriously damaging.

The Berlin wall was not there to keep out immigrants. I frequently wonder if the voters for the GOP realizes a wall works both ways.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

35. Easy to say if you can blend in with everyone else

But if you're not white, not male, not cis-het, not christian...

Then your life span in this country could very well become much shorter by staying if the traitor thugs take over.

Not all of us have the unearned privileges that you have, cupcake.

Try to remember that.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. .

I’ve been disappointed by learning about the dark aspects of US history, and my conscience won’t let me leave it alone. How can I, when Jim Crow-era laws are rising from the ashes and First Nations people are being swindled like it was still the 1870s? The present trajectory doesn’t bode well for the future.

Have you thought about getting involved to fight these injustices, or do you just feel bad about it?

While on the subject, I’ve never liked those who present as ‘the ugly American’ abroad.

And so...you want to move abroad?

Am I wrong in being embarrassed by the actions of fellow citizens who demand privileges based on nationality?

You can feel however you want;

So, yeah, I’m considering leaving the USA, whether or not the worst thing possible happens next year. Some suggest I’m taking the coward’s way out - opting to cut & run instead of staying to fight for change. As I already mentioned, I’m trying really hard as it is not to display my contempt even more openly than I do already. I’m gonna get my ass kicked for my trouble one day. If I’m lucky.

Okay but like...if you are so full of contempt that you don't see fighting for your community as a valid option and can't keep your face quiet around people you don't like, I don't think emigrating is a coward's way; I think it's an overreaction before trying something like talk therapy.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

36. There's fighting

And then there's having your very survival at risk if you stick around.

Do you think the Jews would *not* have wound up in camps if they'd 'fought' for their country?

It's shocking to me how many people assume that they can fight monsters and win, when the odds are so much against those of us without unearned privilege making it easy for us to fight back.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

43. I'm very aware of that. I saw nothing in the OP to indicate they face those challenges, and people who can seriously

consider planning an emigration can afford to not worry about those challenges in the first place.

[marble falls]

5. Don't leave: vote. Talk everyone you know into voting. When I get questioned I question those losers back ...

... one thing I use knowing in the end it really means little in terms of "patriotism", "did you serve, did you enlist or get drafted?" Changes the whole tenor of the conversation at least with some of the MAGAs in my generation. We got to stand up. We have to let "them" know we're here and there are actually a lot more of us than they think. We cannot be a silent majority. We are the majority and the loudest voice we make is when we vote them out.

I never let them know that I enlisted into the Navy as a 20yr old peace freak just so my ex-Marine dad couldn't tell me to shut up at the holiday table when discussing Viet Nam.


Plus there was thought in some Weatherman circles as to whether it made sense "to infiltrate". I thought it did, just for the mining of a harbor in Maine with beach balls by anti-war naval personnel, after Nixon had Haiphong mined, sinking a French humanitarian aid ship. I wasn't one of those miners but if I had been given the option I would have been.

Still have my black converse Chuck Taylor high tops from the street actions before I joined up.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

37. And what happens if we vote and still lose?

Ever think of that?

And how are you going to protect anyone, including yourself, from tanks and drones and all of the rest of the arsenal that can be unloaded on well-meaning citizens if genocidal monsters take over?

You're like the people who are naive enough to claim that 'if only the Jews had fought back, then the Holocaust wouldn't have happened.'

And that's not how it would have worked out.

Really.

[betsuni]

6. There are always problems wherever you go and you'll be a foreigner. Fit in whether you like it or not.

Where would you go that's not capitalist? As always:

[Irish_Dem]

7. Almost all of our ancestors left their home country for a better life in the US.

And now some of those ancestral countries are better places to live than the US.

I love this country, but some of my family members are in the GOP crosshairs because
of race, religion and sexual orientation. If this continues and gets worse, we have already
made some plans about leaving the country. Once it is no longer safe and various groups
have their rights taken away it is time to leave. Period.

[John Shaft]

10. My ancestors were brought here in chains.

If they made it through the ocean voyage.

[Irish_Dem]

19. Yes some were brought by force and enslaved.

America's original sin and still bears the shame for what they did.

[moniss]

12. I'm there with you

and ironically many people would be surprised to find out that many countries we may be able to "fit" with are not so easy for us to just go and stay. 2016 had me seriously look at leaving and I checked out lot's of options. Beyond being a short term "visitor" many of these scenarios are possible but will require significant money to show support of yourself or an employment/skills scenario that is in need in that specific country. Some places in Europe you can "visitor surf" by rotating your stays from country to country but that's not cheap either.

Many Americans have a mistaken belief that we can just "go to Canada". Canada has significant restrictions also about US citizens trying to come and stay for extended periods.

[Irish_Dem]

20. I can get a passport to one European country

Due to my grandparents being born in that country, I just have to apply for it and it comes in the mail.
Some of my siblings and cousins already have their passport from that country.

Some of my family members are in high demand career fields.
And have checked out other countries too.

One of my family members lives on an island in foreign country and just sails to another
country nearby from time to time to get around the residency rules. Not a hardship if you already
live on a sailboat.

All four of my grandparents were immigrants to the US, they left the country of their birth,
where their families have lived for hundreds of years. They left with just the clothes on their backs
for a life in a new place so the families they would have one day had a better life.

I can do the same if I have to and it is no longer safe in this country or no longer have rights.

[moniss]

25. Sadly it is a true fact

that even winning the next elections does not mean these fascist folks are going away. The fight we have right now is one that is going to go on for decades because there literally is trillions of dollars of wealth around the world bankrolling the authoritarian takeover. They will keep on through the judges, local,state and Federal elections and in countries directly throughout the world. Their authoritarian control gives them huge increases in their wealth with little downside.

I agree with you that the country isn't safe anymore. The record number of guns out there is climbing unabated year after year. The efforts to marginalize and "disappear" various groups of people and normalize violence against them and denial of basic human rights will go on and will gain steam in fact as the authoritarians lose elections because they will look to take out their anger on those groups.

Adding to all of this is the backdrop of climate change beginning to rapidly manifest itself as an impact on human life on a daily and near term basis. The more reactionary, authoritarian governments will look to military and police power to try and silence protests demanding change. The financial owners of these leaders will look to keep a lock on their power in the social and industrial order. As the economy falters they will deny it is doing so and beat down anybody trying to show the truth.

So one thing that people should factor in to their "relocation" choice should be an examination of what that country(s) situation may look like relative to climate change impacts and the likely responses from the government. In other words will the government be likely to be supportive of the people or be punitive and restrictive. Having said that it is a scenario for the next couple of decades at the least and understanding the general underlying culture/political history of the country will help in that analysis especially if anyone considering a change of country is not overly familiar with their proposed choice.

Nothing is of course guaranteed but it is a sure bet that the interconnected aspects of globalization/economies are going to be greatly affected as we go forward. It's a safe bet that no matter where one is located it's going to be a tumultuous time.

[Irish_Dem]

27. Yes. Your post is excellent.

There is a huge amount of money, intent, short and long term goals to damage the US
and turn it into an authoritarian country. These people are from both inside and outside the county.

It is not just about acquiring vast wealth, but power as well. The global autocratic bloc intends to be
the sole 21st century superpowers and the democratic countries must be damaged and come onboard.

Oh yes we will undergo massive changes as climate change progresses and impacts everyone.
There is no escaping that. But it is still better to live in a country where you are safe from gun violence
and no longer demonized, and have basic human rights.

[dickthegrouch]

49. These days it's extremely hard to gain entry to most countries

You effectively have to be a refugee to be allowed even to visit, far less live in, another country.
Another major difficulty is legally transferring any money you have out of the US. My guess is the fascists will just confiscate it, given half an opportunity. Plan ahead.
Don’t forget that the US lays claim to your world wide income for tax purposes.
Don’t just look at how to enter a new country, look at exactly how to leave this one too.

[Irish_Dem]

53. If the targeting of certain groups continue, they can argue they need be given refugee status.

Well if you are a citizen of another country, the US cannot take your taxes.

[dickthegrouch]

54. If you are present in the US for more than 183 days in any calendar year

They lay claim to your world wide income. There may be credit for taxes paid to other countries but only after AGI has been calculated , so it’s not a full credit.
Just a word to the wise.

[usedtobedemgurl]

31. I thank goddess...

I have dual citizenship with Canada. Lived there from ages 4-18. I can go there whenever I want, and I still have family and friends there.

[moniss]

33. Many years ago I had

the opportunity to spend some extended days in Canada in Alberta and in Manitoba. I was immediately struck, at lunch time, how much more I was seeing smiles and hearing positive discussion as opposed to the standard grim, nearly shell-shocked look we have in the US and the more negative things being discussed. When I inquired of my Canadian mates as to noticing the difference one of them gave me an answer that was most instructive. He told me that he meant no disrespect (a very Canadian thing to say and mean) and then said "We don't know how all of you stand it. The pressure. If we have to go to the doctor or the wife or kids needs a surgery we don't have to worry about losing the house in order to pay for it. If we lose a job or get laid off our system doesn't end up with us tossed into the streets and losing everything. So we think for all of you it must be absolutely terrible to have that worry over you every day." Certainly there are some twists and turns to any benefits program but his basic points were right on the money.

We in the US went through several extended periods in the last 50 years where everybody was scared for their job, losing health coverage, losing houses, fighting over money and losing marriages/relationships, starting all over again and again with job retraining after job retraining. Desperately seeking some stability and being able to see some sort of term of security/planning that could last longer than a couple of years but over and over again having it all turned upside down. Yes he was right about the parts he spoke of but that lack of a smile on the face of so many Americans in a fast food restaurant at lunch has even more behind it.

[Cherokee100]

8. Ugly American

The 'ugly Americans', are right here in America. Just look around at the violence, churches, bumper stickers, mutilated flags, etc:.

[Lonestarblue]

9. I agree that we have a lot of problems in this country, but many of them can be fixed with time and votes for Democrats.

Like you, I am dismayed by the MAGA attitudes, the hatred, the push for Christian Nationalism, the campaign to end basic rights for everyone but white males, the corruption of Republican politicians, the evil forces of dark money tearing apart democracy, and the economic inequity that has seen so much of the country’s total wealth transferred to the 1%. I always vote in every election and never vote for a Republican. Somehow lately voting does not feel like enough, so this next year I’ll volunteer to register people to vote. I wish we had a solution to the divisiveness Republicans and their media push every day, but I don’t.

[sinkingfeeling]

11. If TFG is re-elected in 2024, I will abandon the US by January 2025. No apologies.

[RainCaster]

14. My ancestors came here before William Penn

They appear in many documents in early US history. Yet I have a plan to leave, should it all go bad. Multiple choices of country, no reliance on any retired citizens benefits.

[PatrickforB]

15. Lots of judgement on this thread, Eyesore. Each person has their own destiny, their own path.

Whether you leave or stay, be a catalyst for what is right - wisdom, understanding, and true compassion. Do it there, do it here, wherever you do, your actions - feelings, thoughts, words and deeds, create ripples in the great sea of humanity that lift us all up over time.

Well...metaphysical rant over.

[dutch777]

16. We've considered leaving too, but kids and grandkids here and the better concept of America is worth a fight

It is certainly discouraging a lot but I would feel as bad, maybe worse, if I was reading about it while living abroad and from my friends and family I leave behind.

[Stargazer99]

17. I thought about leaving this country but being as poor as I am I have no choice in the matter

The country I was born in exposed me to radiation under the age of 5 yrs old. And let my daughter die from lack of medical care (poverty). I see the hate and destruction of lives in this country and it makes me sick. You are not the only one who thinks of leaving your country of birth and I bet if truth were know more people than you are aware of wish to be free of this dark destructive time in this nation.

[pwb]

18. I going to stick it out.

We have always had assholes in this country. The internet and Cable hate just highlights it more than before Tech. More people pay attention to that crap to oppose it. IMO. Women and the young will vote big time. No matter what the media says. Vote before you leave if you can. I can drive to Canada for coffee but the thing is when I get there I am still me, and when I look around I still see assholes.. Mostly uninformed people who don't vote anyway.
Peace to you EYESORE 9001. Stay.

[Deep State Witch]

21. I Love My Country

But want to make it better.

[sindri]

24. Wherever you go to find serenity

There will always be the possibility of assholes. I think I understand how you feel though. It has helped me to stop making my happiness depend on how others around me behave or even treat me. I accept the bad things around me (the unjust systems in my job and in my country) as reality and realize I cannot expect those systems to change overnight. I still love my family members who think gay me like me are sick and I still work in a dysfunctional workplace but I also set boundaries to protect myself. If I want to world to get better, I can let it begin with me by checking my own privilege before judging others and listening to understand, etc. I know that supporting the leaders I believe in and helping out/doing kind things to those around me all can make a difference. I can't make others less bigoted, unjust, etc. (I realized my trying to "make" others do anything was my own mini fascism coming out) but I can try to be better myself wherever I go and that helps me find some happiness even when I am surrounded by despair. I like this poem:
THE PARADOXICAL COMMANDMENTS OF LEADERSHIP
By Kent Keith
1. People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered: love them
anyway.
2. If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior
motives: do good anyway.
3. If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies:
succeed anyway.
4. The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow: do good
anyway.
5. Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable: be honest and
frank anyway.
6. The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot
down by the smallest minds: think big anyway.
7. People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs: fight for a
few underdogs anyway.
8. What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight:
build anyway.
9. Give the world the best you have and you’ll get kicked in the
teeth: give the world the best you have anyway.

[Martin Eden]

32. That's always been my answer to the "Love it or leave it" false patriots

Love it and make it better!

If you don't try to make America better or refuse to acknowledge the room for improvement, then you don't truly love it.

[Stargazer99]

40. I would have to be emotionally sick to love a country

that would expose me to radiation as a child and let my child die for lack of medical care. I do not love something that would harm me...but I guess if it has not happened to you who cares?

[Demsrule86]

22. Really where you going to go? UK was imperialistic and massively racist-still is.

Italy now has a fascist government. France has a real threat of electing a far-right piece of crap government...there is no place without issues and in most cases a dark history.

[bluestarone]

23. It's BAD no doubt about that. BUT what if the soldiers in WW1 and WW2 thought that way and did the same?

NO! not me i will stay and continue the fight, THEY fought then. I feel we OWE it to every soldier that DIED to keep democracy alive HERE! MY choice is to get involved NOW, fight to my last breath.

[Rebl2]

30. Exactly my thought

I think of those that came before us and fought for this country. I feel we let them down if we leave and let the likes of trump and his terrorist organization take over our country.

[Deep State Witch]

26. My Husband and I Have Discussed It

I won't lie. We've discussed where to go if/when this country turns into a Christofascist dictatorship. I'm a Pagan. I'll be one of the first ones targeted, along with Jews, Muslims, and LGBTQ+ people. Part of me wants to run away. Another part - the ones that connect to my ancestors who came to this country for a better life - says to to stay and fight.

[Shermann]

28. At least you have a good answer for your critics

The "Make America Great Again" movement has no answer to the question "Does that mean America isn't great now?".

They have their conditional love of country spelled out on their foreheads.

[brush]

29. There's also how our divided government (dumb ass GOP isolationism) causes us to...

to leave allies in the lurch...as we may be about to do to Ukraine...which causes other countries around the world to question whether democracies can compete with authoritarian systems where decisions to fund allies is up to a strongman in power and not a squabbling two-party system which can abandon friends at a critical time.

[Martin Eden]

34. Would emigrating lessen your love or your concerns for America?

If not, then moving to a different country probably won't ease your mind.

Moving to a better community within the USA could be a healthy change.

Take a break from the constant angst of politics, but VOTE when you have the opportunity.

[maxsolomon]

38. Worst country on the planet

Except for all the others.

[struggle4progress]

39. The country is a work-in-progress

[WarGamer]

41. Criticizing the country is PART of being an American.

Wear it proudly.

[Mosby]

42. What country has the ethical purity your looking for?

See that's the rub, isn't it? Canada was stolen from the First Peoples. Australia and New Zealand was colonized. All Nordic countries are white enclaves with extremely high levels of racism.

So where you gonna go?

https://harvardpolitics.com/nordic-racism/

[EYESORE 9001]

44. Thanks for the responses

I could probably distil that earlier stream-of-consciousness stuff down to this: I spent a good portion of my life fighting for change from within, but knowing I live in a country where a majority would choose autocracy over democracy is beyond the pale.

[Silent3]

45. If it weren't so expensive to move to a saner, more Democratic and liberal country to my liking...

... I'd have done so.

Being at the end of my career, however, (I recently retired) and not having a boatload of money to buy my way into another country that doesn't want to share its social services with someone who hasn't paid a lifetime of taxes into their system, I consider myself pretty much stuck in the US. I'd have to see life-threatening danger at this point before trying to leave.

I suppose there is something to be said for staying and fighting to make things better, even if you have the ability to leave, but I've grown very cynical since Trump came along (and I was already a bit cynical to begin with) about the wisdom and goodness of the American people as a whole.

[Skittles]

46. I will never abandon my country to fascism

NEVER

[uponit7771]

50. America is beautiful not perfect

[JI7]

51. Which places consider to be better civilized societies ?

[betsuni]

52. Yes.