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Celerity

(42,009 posts)
2. The Bronze Age ended around 1200 BC, so 1200 plus years before Christianity was formed, and over 1800 years before Islam
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 02:27 AM
Nov 2023

RockRaven

(14,589 posts)
3. According to the religions in question, they are bronze age religions.
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 02:47 AM
Nov 2023

They both claim Abraham as a forefather and as a correct worshipper of the correct deity. And they claim Abraham to be a 18/19th century BCE figure.

Judaism:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/abraham

Islam:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_in_Islam

Celerity

(42,009 posts)
4. Of course they have claim a common ancestor, but Christianity and Islam did not exist at all until 1200 to 1800+
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 03:02 AM
Nov 2023

years respectively after the Bronze Age ended.

The Magna Carta was issued in June 1215 (during medieval times). If you posit that as the superstructural founding of what eventually morphed into the modern (parliamentary monarchical) English, and then British states, would you still refer to the 21st century UK as a medieval nation state?

RockRaven

(14,589 posts)
5. Well, no, in part because the Magna Carta of '15 was annulled by Pope Innocent III
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 03:54 AM
Nov 2023

and in part because it was ignored/violated by King John (and later replaced by new Magna Cartas in '16 and '17, and also '25).

Anyways, if that were to be a wrong term for the current UK gov, it would be because of aspects of that form of rule which have been formally changed over time -- but there would still be a degree of truth to it since the UK has not adopted a wholly new written constitution/form of government since then -- evolution instead of revolution. Are all humans African apes? Yes, and no. Is today's UK a medieval nation state? No, and yes.

The more relevant issue, IMO, is that Abraham isn't just held up as an origin point. He is held up as correctly worshipping/behaving member in his context/time of the religion by that religion.

If that guy was a bronze age guy, and the religion says he was one of them, then the religion is that old, according to that religion. If they draw the through line, then so be it. We can call it what they say it is.

Celerity

(42,009 posts)
6. absolutely disagree with this
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 05:44 AM
Nov 2023
If that guy was a bronze age guy, and the religion says he was one of them, then the religion is that old, according to that religion.


so many of the foundational beliefs and dogma for christians and muslims were added in over 1200 to over 1800 years after the Bronze age ended, and in the case of Islam closing in on 2500 years or so after Abraham walked the earth

muriel_volestrangler

(100,967 posts)
8. If you're going by what the Bible claims, then iron was used long before Abraham
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 09:29 AM
Nov 2023

Before Noah, even:

Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.

Genesis 4:22

The point being: Tubal-Cain didn't exist. Abraham didn't exist. They were made up as origin stories, by people living in the Iron Age.

cachukis

(2,099 posts)
7. Methinks the addition of dogmas is less
Sun Nov 26, 2023, 07:12 AM
Nov 2023

significant than the crown of monotheism worn by that Abraham fellow.

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