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H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 02:48 PM Nov 2023

Elvis Bonaparte

"When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions." -- Hamlet


Yesterday, I happened upon an OP by Tom of Temecula, regarding Dr, Lance Dodes's saying that the defendent is showing evidence of psychosis. The responses were interesting, and I posted a few comments. However, I did not want to hijack the OP/thread with billions and billions of my own thoughts. A link to Tom's OP/thread is found below:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18433608

Now, I did not read the entire article in the link, as it is from a site I do not go to. Thus, what I have to say is about some of the issues mentioned in the discussion, as well as one post that I read about six months ago, but never got around to responding to. It was from a good friend who was frustrated that she was not seeing the defendent behaving as one might expect one in the most intense stage of psychosis to act.

Generally, we think of psychosis in the context of the a separation from reality, in thoughts and/or emotions. It is most commonly associated with one of the severe and persistent major mental illnesses. In the legal system, under the M'Naughten rule, a defendent is considered "sane" -- a strictly legal term -- unless they either did not know what they were doing, or were not aware that what they were doing was wrong. It is relatively rare in the legal system that one is found "insane."

Yet psychosis is not limited to those with major mental illnesses. This is the type that Dr. Dodes was speaking about. (It was what Dr. Bandy Lee and I talked about in the first interview I posted here in 2020.) It tends to be found in people that have personality disorders. In this case, of course, we are talking about the defendent, a sociopath. As such, let's consider a few of his personality factors that are important.

The defendent's self-image is that of the first mob boss to become president. He wants to project the image of never being wrong. He is used to avoiding any meaningful consequences for any of his behaviors. He not only resents anyone who questions his authority, he has a compulsive need to try to do harm to them. Although he is at times paranoid, he does not seem to have had serious issues with anxiety until, by the summer of 2020, he realized he would lose the election. He is convinced if he wants something to be true, and insists it is, it will come to be. This has continued since the 2020 election without the positive outcomes he had previously enjoyed.

Now, psychosis can happen in any number of ways. But, in general, it starts with the prodromal stage, which is the period where symptoms begin to show up. These often go undetected, especially if it is the person's first episode. (It is much more likely to be picked up on if the person has a history and has stopped taking his/her medication.)

Under prolonged and/or intense stress, a sociopath may have relatively brief episodes of psychosis. In the case of the defendent, think of the personality traits I noted above, for this is where his distorted thinking will be rooted. He is not going to come on stage dressed as Elvis and insist that he is Napolean Bonaparte. It will be when the disilled concentrate of the essence of his pathology surfaces in a manner that does not promote his cause.

The greatest pre-indictment period was between November of 2020 and January of 2021. When the tactics which served him in his earlier life were frustrated, he called for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government. Consider his behaviors in court. The mask of sanity is dropping. You don't need a weather man to know which way this bag of hot air blows.

16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Elvis Bonaparte (Original Post) H2O Man Nov 2023 OP
That last sentence is priceless! Easterncedar Nov 2023 #1
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2023 #4
Thank you so much for your deep thinking, my dear H20 Man. CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2023 #2
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2023 #5
Not insane or anything when one's The Retributioner Kid Berwyn Nov 2023 #3
Very good! H2O Man Nov 2023 #7
Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults Kid Berwyn Nov 2023 #12
Back in the H2O Man Nov 2023 #16
Elvis Bonaparte - I laugh, but this apocalyptic psychotic is no laughing matter. Bundbuster Nov 2023 #6
Ha! H2O Man Nov 2023 #8
*rump is losing his oligarchic reality, and that's ripping him a new one. Uncle Joe Nov 2023 #9
Very important point H2O Man Nov 2023 #13
K&R spanone Nov 2023 #10
Thank you. H2O Man Nov 2023 #14
Your last sentence gave me a vision of The Hindenburg coming in for its final landing... Hekate Nov 2023 #11
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2023 #15

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,762 posts)
2. Thank you so much for your deep thinking, my dear H20 Man.
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 03:21 PM
Nov 2023

This sentence really states the situation very well: The mask of sanity is dropping.

I am waiting a bit anxiously to see how this plays out. I hope you'll keep on analyzing the evolving situation!

H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
5. Thank you!
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 03:43 PM
Nov 2023

"The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues About the So-Called Psychopathic Personality" was published in the early 1940s, by Dr. Hervy (not "Harvey&quot Cleckley. It is still available, and a good read. It is based largely on his interviews with incarcerated criminals. It is never, ever pleasant when the mask drops.

Kid Berwyn

(15,033 posts)
3. Not insane or anything when one's The Retributioner
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 03:32 PM
Nov 2023
Trump Plans to Use DOJ to Persecute His Political Enemies, Including His Own Former Officials and Lawyers: Report

Joe DePaolo
Mediaite, November 5, 2023

Former President Donald Trump, according to a new report, is plotting to use the Department of Justice to go after his political foes — including some members of his prior administration.

The Washington Post reported Sunday — in a piece authored by Isaac Arnsdorf, Josh Dawsey and Devlin Barrett — that the former president is now plotting vengeance against his political foes in a very pointed manner.

“Donald Trump and his allies have begun mapping out specific plans for using the federal government to punish critics and opponents should he win a second term, with the former president naming individuals he wants to investigate or prosecute,” Arnsdorf, Dawsey and Barrett wrote.

Trump has been open about his desire to go after his political foes in a second term, writing on Truth Social in June, “I WILL APPOINT A REAL SPECIAL ‘PROSECUTOR’ TO GO AFTER THE MOST CORRUPT PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA, JOE BIDEN, THE ENTIRE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY, & ALL OTHERS INVOLVED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ELECTIONS, BORDERS, & COUNTRY ITSELF”

But the Post report is noteworthy because of the revelation that Trump is also looking to exact revenge on numerous high-level officials from his first term. The Post reports:

In private, Trump has told advisers and friends in recent months that he wants the Justice Department to investigate onetime officials and allies who have become critical of his time in office, including his former chief of staff, John Kelly, and former attorney general William P. Barr, as well as his ex-attorney Ty Cobb and former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Gen. Mark A. Milley, according to people who have talked to him, who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations. Trump has also talked of prosecuting officials at the FBI and Justice Department, a person familiar with the matter said.


CONTINUES...

https://www.mediaite.com/news/trump-plans-to-use-doj-to-persecute-his-political-enemies-including-his-own-former-officials-and-lawyers-report/

Pre-meditated murder of the US Constitution isn't crazy. It's treason.

H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
7. Very good!
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 03:56 PM
Nov 2023

One of the most distressing things -- and we see it discussed on this forum frequently -- is the answer to the question: "Don't his supporters see what what he is doing?" One has to view the answer in the context of the mentality of cult members. To illustrate this, we can look at two examples that most people are at least somewhat familiar with -- the Manson Family and the group with Jim Jones. The cult members were at first attracted to the promise of being selected to enjoy meaning in their lives. As time went on, their masters became more unhinged. Not all of them to the same degree, of course. Some might have left, and others might have thought parts of the master's message was uncomfortable, but that he was still their savior.

When the master advocates violence -- be it murdering others or killing themselves -- the most unhinged followers are convinced that this is their opportunity to serve. Among these, identify those with features from Cluster B personality disorders -- primarily among anti-social and borderline personality disorders -- and you have those who will act without conscience in the game of Follow the Leader.

Kid Berwyn

(15,033 posts)
12. Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 04:27 PM
Nov 2023
"Give me the superstitions of a nation, and I care not who makes the laws, or who writes their songs!" -- Mark Twain



An accomplished computer scientist, Jacques Vallee has written about the UFO phenomenon for decades. His work above was published in 1979. He has stated he does not know what UFOs are, but can say they represent a real phenomena with global reach that spans millennia. Dr. Vallee thinks that they appear to be under intelligent control and behave in ways similar to a control system over human imagination and behavior. He has stated the extraterrestrial hypothesis may be too simple for what witnesses have reported and meta-analysis of reports show. From an interview:

"I don’t think there is such a thing as “the flying saucer phenomenon.” I think it has three components and we have to deal with them in different ways.

First, there is a physical object. That may be a flying saucer or it may be a projection or it may be something entirely different. All we know about it is that it represents a tremendous quantity of electromagnetic energy in a small volume. I say that based upon the evidence gathered from traces, from electromagnetic and radar detection and from perturbations of the electromagnetic fields such as Dr. Claude Poher, the French space scientist, has recorded.

Second, there’s the phenomenon the witnesses perceive. What they tell us is that they’ve seen a flying saucer. Now they may have seen that or they may have seen an image of a flying saucer or they may have hallucinated it under the influence of microwave radiation, or any of a number of things may have happened. The fact is that the witnesses were exposed to an event and as a result they experienced a highly complex alteration of perception which caused them to describe the object or objects that figure in their testimony.

Beyond those — the physical phenomenon and the perception phenomenon — we have the third component, the social phenomenon. That’s what happens when the reports are submitted to society and enter the cultural arena. That’s the part which I find most interesting."

SOURCE: http://integralnews.blogspot.com/2008/01/jacques-vallees-integral-approach-to.html


If you don't already own a copy, a PDF:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwaXvvZmDODlZTBkOE1YSldYZG8/edit?pli=1&resourcekey=0-d7wc8h1T2f5neDisx8xl2w

You may agree that this all applies to what the Defendant and Associates have done to market his brand and bend the minds of his base and supporters, the cult of drumpf, as it were.

H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
16. Back in the
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 10:44 PM
Nov 2023

summer of 1967, I think it was, my best friend and I were up on the mountain where we lived. We were watching our older siblings a couple hundred yards away. Most of the parents in the rural neighborhood were out enjoying the weather. Something crossed the sky, pretty low. Everyone saw it, and it scared the shit out of some of the other kids. The following day, I remember it being reported in the news, having been seen across a significant difference.

I have no idea what it was or wasn't. My friend still talks about it when I see him.

Working at the clinic, my suprvisor talked about a small number of clients -- all located in a small area of our rural county -- who all told the same story of having had contact with aliens. None of them were familiar with each other. In staff, a couple of co-workers questioned if the people had a shared delusion. My supervisor said the only thing for certain is that he found them all to be truthful, though he had no idea if they were accurate.

In recent years, I've encountered a small number of individuals -- including two relatives, my late brother and a cousin -- who are extreme UFO believers. Almost to a religious sense. Most of the extended family considers them nuts, but who really knows. They are (or were) distinct from the people I have encountered who belonged to cults.

Interesting topics.

Bundbuster

(3,205 posts)
6. Elvis Bonaparte - I laugh, but this apocalyptic psychotic is no laughing matter.
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 03:49 PM
Nov 2023
billions and billions of my own thoughts - I knew you were intelligent, Waterman, but Carl Sagan?

H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
8. Ha!
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 03:59 PM
Nov 2023

As I noted in my response to the first comment, I included a number of references as "hidden" as I could -- not quite "Glass Onion," but as close as my limited ability allowed -- to the things I liked in my first childhood.

Uncle Joe

(58,506 posts)
9. *rump is losing his oligarchic reality, and that's ripping him a new one.
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 04:00 PM
Nov 2023

Oligarchs don't look up to judges or anyone else, so having to do so must be especially humiliating to the point of causing emotional denial.

*rump can't show respect or restraint because he never had to do so in the past.

He has lived a life with absolutely no consequences for his actions.

Thanks for the thread H2O Man.

H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
13. Very important point
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 04:39 PM
Nov 2023

you raise -- the defendent has zero respect for the court system. He holds DAs and judges in contempt, so to speak. And if one happens to be female or non-white -- especially if one is a black female! -- he is convinced that they are inferior to him. He refuses to believe that they can determine his future.

That's not a stumbling block -- it's a concrete wall that he is running into.

H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
14. Thank you.
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 04:41 PM
Nov 2023

I'm glad that a significant number of his most rabid followers were arrested and convicted for January 6. That should reduce his ability to stir the pot.

Hekate

(90,978 posts)
11. Your last sentence gave me a vision of The Hindenburg coming in for its final landing...
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 04:12 PM
Nov 2023

Anyway, thanks for another thought provoking post.


H2O Man

(73,668 posts)
15. Thanks!
Wed Nov 8, 2023, 04:43 PM
Nov 2023

At times, I find the coverage of his legal issues entertaining. At other times, I have concerns about the freaks that follow him.

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