This question needs to be asked. Why is it impossible to voice criticism of Israel as a political

[TeamProg]

body and not immediately be labeled as anti-Semite?

In my posts, religion is the furthest thing on my mind, just the policy of the nation and yet I get grief.

How can we have serious policy debate when sides takes a defensive/aggressive posture with their personal religion over policy matters?

Someone please explain this to me.

To moderators, there many, many posts here at Gen Discussion relating to Israel/ Palestine. It is the subject of the year.

[Deuxcents]

1. This subject has been the most contentious since I've been here

Almost 7 years. Very passionate threads for both sides and a lot of great content but also disrespect for different opinions at times. Ive read a lot of them but my opinion has not changed.it’s like walking on egg shells with my MAGA family. I’m not gonna change anyone’s position, and I’ll still have mine in the end and like you, it’s not a religious issue in my decision. I’m gonna hang in and hope to learn something from all this but I know that it doesn’t matter what any of else think should be done or not done. It’s all in the hands of who is elected and the only thing I can contribute to that is ..vote for the person that has my values.

[walkingman]

2. Depending on the person's opinion it is difficult at best.

In my opinion it is possible to the Anti-Zionist and not be Anti-Semitic.

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Jews having a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland or a derivative.

Antisemitism is prejudice against or hatred of Jews.

But the two are so closely related it is almost an impossible task to discuss.

[CincyDem]

8. It is complicated but I think they're linked because the first is so often rooted in the second.

Ask an anti-Zionist why he/she is opposed to Jews having a Jewish state and that answer usually boils down to something like this: "Why do Jews deserve their own state? Why are they so special?" Said differently "They don't deserve it". And that leads right into an explanation of why Jews don't deserve a Jewish state which rolls right into the time honored anti-semitic tropes.

And let's be fair, there's a surprising level of anti-semitism today just beneath the surface in places and among people where I never expected it. Israel, and what it means, is hard to explain to non-Jews. Prior to 10/7, it was a place to be both Jewish and safe. Less so today and I suspect Bibi is going to pay dearly for his misjudgments...just not today.

I do think it's very possible to be Anti-Bibi without being anti-zionist or anti-semitic. Hell...half the Israelis are Anti-Bibi, which I describe as opposition to a government led by today's Likud party. Being opposed to him leading the government doesn't slip into anti-semitism because there are 101 valid answers to the question "why are you opposed to Bibi" and none of them include " he doesn't deserve to lead because he's a Jew".

My 2 cents from the cheap seats at shul.

[electric_blue68]

26. Ah... the various nomenclarure I didn't know...

I've (born/bred NYC'r) previously lived in 1 definitely majority Jewish neighborhood in NYC and one that was so when my family first moved there. So, yes, I've heard the term, didn't know it was Yiddish ?vs Hebrew.
(I looked it up bc I was almost sure it refered to a Jewish religious place of worship)
What I didn't know was that synagogue is the religious Conservative term, and temple is the Reform Judism term. At least that's what the explanation that was. Heard all of these.

[CincyDem]

35. You've got it right and thanks for being interested enough to dig.

Shul tends to be older and on the more orthodox end of conservative…maybe in the middle. IMHO. My father in law, may his memory be a blessing, used it all the time. I’m not sure why I tossed it out in this context. Maybe he was subconsciously on my mind..I think he’d have agreed with my post given his life experiences.

The only difference: he probably would have started with “what ah ya, a putz???”. Lolol. If you didn’t agree with him 100%, you were a putz.

[electric_blue68]

41. I've certainly heard that expression lol

The Jewish people (neighbors, friends, acquaintences, work etc) I've known, know go from Secular but cultural, Reform, and Conservative but not Orthodox.

Here's to your father-in-law.

[electric_blue68]

38. Good post...

Last edited Wed Nov 1, 2023, 10:52 AM - Edit history (2)

I believe Israel has a right to exist, but have opposed the RW'rs there for a long time. I have yet (not that I'm looking for such arguments) to say otherwise, after atmospheric Anti-Semitism in Europe, then in Germany in particular resulted in The Holocaust, plus the historical, and continued living in that area by Jewish people.

I feel for the non-combat Palestinians, esp elders, kids, disabled those not easily able to have desicions they can make for themselves, sometimes in protecting themselves in this situation.
Longer issue - The West Bank settlements are illegal.

However Hamas hiding in, under civilian areas is cowardly!

Now, some poster* yesterday(?) gave a whole explanation to another poster who asked why are the Jews so vilified. It was really presented well, imho.
I've heard some of it before Including - the whole (for Christians) (apologies for the repeat) "the Jews killed Jesus" trope - it never stuck w me. (raised Urkrainian Catholic). Certain top ruling Romans in that area, and certain ?Rabbinic Jews killed Jesus. And to me that's that. The generalization is wrong.

That's my 2¢ for now

* Post #3 by no_hypocracy

[Grins]

48. I'm with you.

I don't hate Israel or the Israeli's. (Don't hate the Palestinians, either.)

I hate the Likud! And Bibi who embodies the Likud's extremism.

[raging moderate]

55. The Romans BULLIED the Jewish leaders into helping them kill Jesus.

If you read the last several verses of the 11th chapter of the Gospel of John, he describes a private meeting of the Jewish leaders in which they basically say, "What else can can we do? If we don't turn this man over to Pilate, the Romans will launch yet another massacre on our people!" And all the gospels mention the occasional massacres by the brutal Roman invaders, including one in which the vicious Roman army massacred some Jews in the middle of one of their worship services. We had a strange period in this country when the vicious exploitive brutality of the Roman army was almost forgotten. They were NOT generous, benevolent dogooders!

[The Magistrate]

61. To Be Fair, Sir

The Gospel of John is no reliable source for events of that particular Passover in Jerusalem....

In fact, none of the Gospels are: all were written to buttress specific theological positions, which there is little reason to suspect gibed close with anything actually said and done decades before they were written. Conveying facts about past events was far from their authors' intentions.

It's a sideline to this, but the fact is that, for all it is the fashion to slang Paul of Tarsus as somehow traducing a pure, perhaps even progressive, original teaching of Christianity, the only Christian documents which are authentic survivals from its earliest days are several letters he wrote to various congregations comprised of his converts to the faith.

[cachukis]

103. Fair.

[electric_blue68]

75. Uh, woah there... I haven't read the Bible in a gazillion years Did I say the Romans were "good guys"...

don't go jumping all over me bc I have some vauge recollection!

[raging moderate]

78. Oh, sorry, I meant no hostility against you personally!

Last edited Wed Nov 1, 2023, 10:17 PM - Edit history (1)

I also mean no hostility against the present-day Romans or Italians. Actually, when I read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, it turned out that the ruling class of the Roman Empire was overturned in the end by their underlings, who were fed up with all the strife, snobbery, and bullying behavior of their overlords. I only meant to spread some information that I find sadly lacking in the general media. Everyone acts as though the poor cowering well-meaning Roman governor tried to save Jesus but was bullied into crucifying him by the "vicious" Jewish pharisees. I suspect some empire-loving admirers of Roman-style conquerors have pushed their own prejudices into the account. If you read the entire New Testament, and you know how swaggering bullying conquererors behave, then you can see what a farce that scene is in which Pilate pretends to be caving to the so-called "bloodthirsty" Jews. Pilate and his troops were the ones who had proven themselves to be vicious and bloodthirsty.

[electric_blue68]

93. Got it 👍

🙂

[karynnj]

43. Accepting Israel or accepting Israel as a Jewish State?

The problem is that Hamas rejects both. The latter is ant Zionism, the former is far worse.. There is a difference between accepting Israel and accepting Israel as a Jewish state. The declaration of independence fincessed this calling Israel a Jewish state, but specifying equal rights for all people. Within the green line this was more aspiration than goal throughout Israel's history, but many Israeli Arabs had more rights than most middleeastern Arabs.

Although Netanyahu argued that the right supported Nation State law only refected current reality and gave equal rights to non Jewish citizens, it was controversial because many people, including some Israelis, disagreed that there were equal rights and enumerated differences. Some argued that it was at odds with the declaration of independence. (One I remember is that if an Israeli Jew married someone from outside Israel, the new spouse had no barrier to living in Israel. If an Israeli Arab married a spouse from the West Bank or Gaza, there is a barrier.)

In addition, any Jew, as deemed by Israel, can exercise the right of return, Palestinian who were born in Israel and fled in 1946 do not have the right to return. One solution to this which leaves Israel democatic and Jewish as the declaration of independence calls for is the 2 state solution where that difference in the rights of Jews and Arabs to be citizens is preserved. This has for decades been the US position, but the continuing building of more and more settlements in the West Bank make this increasingly impossible.

It may be that it will become impossible to have a state that is explicitly Jewish and Jewish majority AND democratic with equal rights for all. The actions of the right wing coalition currently in power seems to be willing to chose being explicitly Jewish over equal rights for all. Although there are countries that give more rights to one religion over others, I can think of NO case where that is US policy. It is the opposite of the US construction- the current Speaker of the House not withstanding- that there should be no state religion.

[cachukis]

106. Important to understanding. The little things.

[viva la]

58. I think that's a good point-- Anti-Bibi is a good position.

There is no way any progress will be made towards a peaceful resolution of conflict with him in office.

And it looks like he ignored or refused to act on credible intelligence before the attack. Was it incompetence, or a desire for an excuse for war?

[MadameButterfly]

85. and there are lots of people who are pro-Bibi

and pro-whatever Israel does without limit who are antisemites. Like the folks who carried tiki torches around my hometown (Charlottesville). Ask the positions of the people they are voting for.

I appreciate your helpful perspective above. I just wish more commentators would go easy on those of us who are against tropes, tiki torches, terrorism by Hamas, and are also concerned about Palestinian civilians. I don't know enough to know the political/military solutions since things have gotten to this point, but would like to not be called an anti-semite for being queasy about bombing of children.

[ratchiweenie]

44. For me it's only partly true. I believe in Israel's right to exist. I am certainly not

antisemitic. What I do oppose it the far right in Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Likud and the other, even further right, parties really do seem to believe that the Palestinians are lower than animals and if they had their way they would find a final solution for them.

So it's hard to talk to people here who insist that if you refer to Gaza as being an open air prison and a reservation, immediately accuse you of being anti-Israel and antisemitic. That's like saying that just because I hate Trump and MAGA I am, anti-American and anti-Christian. It is very possible to dislike the policies that Israel has been enforcing for decades and not hate either Israel or Jews.

We all need to find a better way to talk about it.

[walkingman]

52. I feel the same way as you do. To relate to the American experience recently was

George W Bush's September 2001 remarks, "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

This mentality is one of the reasons that the public supported the war with Iraq. Hundreds of thousands killed and no one ever held accountable.

[PatrickforB]

84. Yep. When Obama was elected, I was all ready for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld (a truly evil man), Rice et al

to be brought to justice for war crimes.

But nope. Didn't happen.

But Trumpy has pushed that envelope really far, and may end up in prison (we can hope!). And if not, stripped of most of his businesses and appealing guilty verdicts just to stay out of jail until that happy day when he goes the way of all humans.

[RoeVWade]

46. My view

My view is everyone gets it right when they argue against discrimination. But you start getting it wrong when you argue you need separate but equal. Separate but equal is almost agreeing with the discriminators. You shouldn't have to live in your own country with your own kind to be at peace. You're either equal or you're not. You're not really different people, for good reasons or bad.

Too harsh? Maybe, I don't know.

[walkingman]

49. I agree with you. As someone that grew up in the South and saw first hand

what "Separate but Equal" really means. It is just another justification for segregation.

[Hieronymus Phact]

59. This isn't school systems.

We're talking about Nations, It really doesn't matter if they're equal. (and equal by what measure?) What nations have a requirement to be equal? Does anyone care if Mexico or Canada or Moldova isn't "equal" to he US or Japan or Italy? In state funded schools, yes, you can't have separate but equal. but that makes no sense with nations, why is it important? and whats the remedy? merge all nations into one?
This is a nonsensical analogy.

[inthewind21]

99. Totally missed

the point.

[Hieronymus Phact]

109. Oh well

It's a shame you apparently can't be bothered to spell it out for me.

[Lunabell]

62. That is not antizionism.

Anti zionism is the belief that the Palestinians have a right to a homeland too. That many Israeli settlers are taking more land that should belong to the Palestinians and the Israeli government lets them.

There needs to be a place for Palestinians too. A safe home for Israelis and Palestinians. I am antizionist, and have never, ever been antisemitic.

[Behind the Aegis]

64. No, anti-Zionism is EXACTLY what the other person wrote.

It has NOTHING to do with Palestinians, and everything to do with Jewish self-determination. So, why are you against that?

[Lunabell]

65. Well, I disagree.

I am not against any Jewish self-determination. If you read that into my post, I suggest you read it again and again until you see my point.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. You are against Jewish self-determination if you are anti-Zionist.

Zionism is the belief that Jews have a right to self-determination, and the modern iteration is the preservation of the ONLY Jewish state in the world as a home for Jewish people, if they so choose.

[Lunabell]

67. Nope. Read again.

What is anti-Zionism?
“Anti-Zionism” is a loose term referring to criticism of the current policies of the Israeli state, and/or moral, ethical, or religious criticism of the idea of a Jewish nation-state. There has been debate, criticism and opposition to Zionism within Jewish thought for as long as it has existed. Jewish anti-Zionists span a political and religious spectrum, from religious and secular progressives who view opposition to Zionism as an anti-racist praxis, to ultra-Orthodox Jews who oppose Jewish dominion until the time of the Messiah, to anarchist Jews who oppose the very concept of nation-states, Jewish or otherwise. There are also many non-Jewish anti-Zionists whose perspectives may be informed by moral criticism of the policies of the Israeli government, problems with the impact of Zionist thinking in Israel on non-Jewish residents, and/or a criticism of ethno-nationalism more broadly. Many Palestinians take anti-Zionist positions or identify as anti-Zionist because of the current and historical practices of the Israeli state.

Criticism of Zionism is not to be conflated with antisemitism. States such as Israel and the United States are openly criticized in public life, and their political beliefs and policies are subject to critical debate, in accord with our basic First Amendment rights.

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

[Behind the Aegis]

68. BWHAHA! Seriously?! JVP.

There are credible as Ben Carson claiming enslaved Africans were "immigrants". What they (and you) have provided is nothing more than an excuse to deny the right of Jewish self-determination.

Oxford Dictionary:
Zi·on·ism
/ˈzīəˌnizəm/
noun
noun: Zionism
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

Now, throw "anti-" in front and you have what you and others are claiming you aren't claiming.

[Lunabell]

70. I see your mind and heart are closed.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. As are yours.

[Lunabell]

72. No

You are wrong.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. No. You are wrong.

But thank you for showing me.

[JohnSJ]

74. Jewish Voices for Peace is not a good group. Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is a radical anti-Israel group that

advocates for the elimination of the state of Israel. Zionism is simply for the existence of a Jewish State. Zionism is NOT against a two-state solution.

JVP does not represent the mainstream Jewish community, which it views as bigoted for its association with Israel. JVP’s staunch anti-Zionist positions place it squarely in opposition to mainstream American Jews and Jews worldwide, most of whom view a connection with Israel as an integral part of their social, cultural or religious Jewish identities. JVP promulgates the view that Jews who identify even tangentially with Israel are motivated by white supremacy, Jewish racial chauvinism and religious supremacism.

The spread of JVP’s most inflammatory ideas can help give rise to antisemitism. Many left-wing groups have uncritically accepted JVP’s anti-Zionist claims, elevating their harsh rhetoric related to Israel and Zionism and furthering the widespread antisemitic vilification and ostracization of many American Jews who identify as Zionists. This has helped to create a hostile environment for Jews on many campuses and in many progressive spaces.


https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know

That website has a whole lot about them, including recent statements that defend Hamas' behavior.

[inthewind21]

101. Ah

so only the Jews you like. Got it!

[JohnSJ]

102. You believe what you want bud, I will believe the ADL assessment of the group

[treestar]

105. critiques of Israeli actions don't even have to be antiZionist

this either/or thinking and the quick resort to anti Semitism makes it un-discussable, and maybe that's the intent.

[walkingman]

107. Agree - thank goodness we all have the right to disagree/ agree still.

I don't think expressing your opinion should ever be thought of as a bad thing. If that ever happens then we are no longer a democracy.

[Arthur_Frain]

3. It's the 64 million dollar question

nt

[Tesha]

4. 2 friends called me anti-Semitic

And were explosively angry, not just at me for posing this very question - but at all ‘liberals’ for wanting to discuss the issue.

Not that people of the faith should exist, or have a state, or even that the hatred for them is real and scary - but just to discuss the leadership of the country and decisions they’ve made.

Also? On my local republican page I am a terrorist in this same discussion.

Who is stirring up so much misplaced anger?
Who is benefitting from the rage everywhere?

[Butterflylady]

47. Thanks

Could not say it better. I for one do not believe in killing at all so I guess makes me anti-whatever. I have no use for religion, I'm agnostic, but realize that hate can and will destroy humanity.

[Mad_Machine76]

56. BTW when did "liberal" become such a dirty word

on the left? I have a lot of left-wing friends and follow some left-wing creators and they seem to regard "liberals" as pretty much anybody who is considered by them to be to the right of them, politically or more moderate, or involved in the Democratic establishment.

[Basic LA]

5. If we disagree with Right Wing ...

... government policies in Poland or Italy, are we Catholic haters? If we disagree with Chinese government actions, is it because we're anti Taoist?
(Too glib maybe, but worth considering. )

[wnylib]

17. What so many posters on this thread

seem not to know is that being Jewish is not just a religion. It is an ethnicity because it is maternally hereditary. You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Or, you can convert to the religion and consider yourself Jewish. It's a feature carried over from ancient tribal societies when religion was a way of life and customary practices more than a theological belief. Most Native American religions are like that, too.

You can be Jewish and atheist. You can convert to another religion like Catholicism and later reject the conversion without needing to "reconvert" back to being Jewish.

It's the ethnic identity that Jews are defending.

[Basic LA]

23. Thank you, that makes sense.

But it doesn't explain why criticism of any country's right-wing policies is off limits due to that country's ethnicity.
Can we separate politics from ethnic identity? If we can't--at least on our beloved DU--we're just talking past each other.

[wnylib]

25. I see quite a few posters criticizing Netanyahu

without being told that they are anti Semitic. Same with criticism of the settlers in the West Bank.

[stopdiggin]

33. and I see the same. +1.

the OP has a point - but I'll also make the point that criticism of the Jewish state vs criticism of 'the Jews' (antisemitism) has always been a somewhat nuanced tight-rope. (and is flatly rejected in some quarters, even while remaining a rational point of view in most)

I've seen (a smallish amount?) of stuff over the past month that is just outright flaming - but then there has always been a certain degree of ill thought and ill considered comment on DU. Tensions run high - but I don't believe anybody's (rational and respectful) point of view has been quashed or muzzled

[ratchiweenie]

50. But that doesn't mean you can't oppose far right government policy.

[wnylib]

53. Of course it doesn't. And there have been

many criticisms of Netanyahu's RW policies and of the West Bank settlements.

[Cosmocat]

20. This is the issue for me

The same right wing fuck wittery we see here.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

32. Criticism of Netanyahu's policies does not make one Anti-Semitic

There are anti-Semitic tropes that are so embedded into our culture that I'm not sure that people who use them realize they are. Or at least I hope they aren't.
But in the past month...
I've seen a post call him a rat gnawing at the West Bank. That is VERY anti-Semitic.
I've seen claims that Israel is controlling the American government through Jewish money.
I've seen a post that Palestinians need to take to the street chanting "Jews will not replace us."
I've seen posts saying Israel is calling for a "Pound of Flesh."
I've seen a post with fake quotes originally from an online neo-Nazi that were attributed to a famous philosopher (who also ironically was an anti-Semite).
I've seen a post calling for Jews to read the New Testament in their Bible.
And for me, saying you are Anti-Zionist comes close to Anti-Semitism, because you are saying Israel needs to be dissolved.
Now maybe most of the posters saying these things don't realize the historical meaning of their words, but that doesn't lessen their impact to people who have been hearing them for centuries. But there are some posters who do know this history and still share them.

[stopdiggin]

36. solid point (let's not pretend like there ISN'T a good deal of antisemitism out there)

[NoRethugFriends]

34. Yeh, way too glib

[yardwork]

39. It depends how the criticism is expressed.

Many Israelis and American Jews and lots of other people express criticism of Netanyahu and Likkud without using antisemitic phrases.

Plenty of people on DU criticize them - including me - and are not accused of antisemitism. The antisemitism comes in when posters use words like "Nazis, genocide, bloodlust, rats..." to describe Israelis. THAT's antisemitic. And we're seeing a lot of it on DU.

I'm not going to list the types of ugly things people could say while criticizing Italy or Poland, but you get my drift.

[JI7]

6. It's not impossible but we aren't going to pretend the issue is just difference

of opinion over policy when that is not clearly the case.

[Warpy]

7. A lot of us have asked that for years

with the same erroneous result.

[PSPS]

9. Nobody knows. That's why all of these topics are supposed to be in the Israel/Palestine forum.

[Sympthsical]

10. It's easy

Don’t use antisemitic sources, don’t use antisemitic tropes or language, don’t ally with, support, or promote antisemitic events or those organized by antisemitic entities.

People keep running afoul of this for some reason.

It’s very strange.

People who get called out for these things aren’t the real victims. Such a pose is ridiculous.

[Sky Jewels]

11. But progressives taking issue with right wing people

like Netanyahu or Likkud get labeled antisemitic instantly. It’s ridiculous.

[Sympthsical]

12. Even pro-Israel people are critical of Netanyahu

I’ve seen criticism of Israeli policy done well. It’s easily possible.

But if someone is pulling from blatantly antisemitic sources, pretending genocidal sentiments aren’t, or staying dirt quiet about an actual pogrom while immediately seizing on talking points perpetuated by antisemitic organizations, sorry.

They’re getting side eye.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Of course, that poster JUST posted something anti-Netanyahu and immediately was called an anti-Semite.

Oh, wait, that last part didn't happen. It is disgusting all of these people whining about anti-Semitism but refusing to acknowledge it. Not surprising, but disgusting nonetheless.

[TheRealNorth]

60. I think your post is part of the problem....

And is exactly what the concerns being expressed here (in this thread) are about.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. Yeah, MY post is the problem. Not the one making false claims.

[TheRealNorth]

69. Please see the last paragraph of Post 30 on this thread from PCIntern

That is part of what this thread is talking about (ie you are either with Israel or your with Hamas). And that is far from the only comment like that made on DU in the past few weeks.
So YOU are the one making false claims in this case.

[Mosby]

98. I think you might be misunderstanding the last paragraph

Nt

[yardwork]

37. I haven't seen one example of good-faith criticism of Netanyahu or Likkud being labeled antisemitic.

Plenty of DUers criticize them all the time, including me, and I haven't been accused of antisemitism.

However, I try to avoid using antisemitic language, such as comparing Israel to Nazis, accusing them of genocide, using words like "blood thirsty and blood lust" to describe their policies, comparing Netanyahu to a rat or insect, that sort of thing.

[kwolf68]

22. Therein lies the problem

People who use "neutral" sources to show their arguments for the negative Israel does militarily are cast as "anti-Israel" and seemingly any source that doesn't fit a pro-Israel message, not fitting the narrative is considered "Hamas propaganda". So basically, either you are "with us or against us".

I am decidedly pro-Israel state, pro Jewish, but also anti-war and especially anti-religious war, which this mess is starting to creep toward. Israel itself (well the leaders) basically is saying this, finally someone posted these comments that absolutely show Israel appears to be on the brink of religious war and the extermination of Palestinians. Don't take Hamas word on that, just listen to Israeli leaders themselves. And the US basically is sending blank checks to Israel for this operation.

I see nothing wrong with being opposed to this. I believe what Hamas did in early October is beyond the pale, ghastly barbarism where we saw Jewish children slaughtered by Hamas. I guess the payback for that is to slaughter thousands of Palestinian children. It's OK to value BOTH Jewish children and Palestinian children. Where apologists of Palestine fail to condemn Hamas and show great remorse for the lost Jewish children are wrong, I submit people are wrong on the other side as well.

[stopdiggin]

40. and this is where you get into trouble ..

finally someone posted these comments that absolutely show Israel appears to be on the brink of religious war and the extermination of Palestinians. Don't take Hamas word on that, just listen to Israeli leaders themselves.

Giving credence to the (codswallop) proposition that the state of Israel is bent on the extermination of the Palestinian people ...
And you feel aggrieved when people call you on the BS?

[Aussie105]

14. If you are going to criticise, you need to be very specific

about the context of your criticism.

Don't like Bidi's hard line response? Make sure you explain that and stick to that.

People will extrapolate to 'you just hate Jews, you anti-Semite!' when they can, and it's just to shut you up.

But some people live in a monochromatic world, and nuances are wasted on them.

[meadowlander]

15. Because it's a lot easier to throw around accusations of anti-Semitism than it is to defend indefensible behaviour.

[Aussie105]

16. It is simpler for some to say they support Israel

and Israel can do no wrong.

Or, if pressed, admit Israel did some unpleasant things but they were forced into it, they had no choice.

The Israeli apologists will then batter you over the head with the anti-Semitism hammer if you press them further, trying to get them to see how complicated and destructive the situation is.

[Goddessartist]

27. Absolutely!

[Behind the Aegis]

18. And, just as easy, to throw around FLASE accusations of being ACCUSED of anti-Semitism....

...than to actually address the situation or dismiss it out of hand. Or, better yet, preemptively accuse others of accusing you of anti-Semitism, and then if they disagree with your point, well, then see, you are the victim of a false accusation.

[malaise]

19. Excellent OP

Rec
I repeat nothing justifies Israel’s response

[Kaleva]

21. Some issues can't be resolved here with discussion

This is one of them

[Happy Hoosier]

24. I'd normally be there with you, but....

... there is a difference between a reasoned criticism of Israel and Likud in particular, and a an automatic stance against Israel in every possible case.

ESPECIALLY in light of the brutal attacks by Hamas which explicitly targeted civilians for massacre, it's hard to stomach folks who uncritically repeat claims by those same terrorists, and hyperbolic accusations against Israel as an entity... using terms like "genocide" or "colonialist."

Some of the critics seem to accept the narrative that Israel is an example of Western Imperialism, which flies in the face of over 1000 years of pogroms, massacres, and exploitation in Europe and that the Zionist movement was an effort to get AWAY from that.

I am quite critical of many of Israel's policies, but they did not emerge in a vacuum, and I find a lot of Democrats in this country and more or less unaware of the details how Zionism emerged as a movement, and the context of some the bigger mistakes Israel made in its early history.... or for that matter, decisions the Palestinians and Arab states made... like their earlier insistence that no Jewish state could exist in that region at all... and their OWN explusions of non-Israeli Jews.... details often left out of the ISRAEL BAD narrative.

[Wonder Why]

28. Because neither side can separate Israel from the Jewish people.

[sarisataka]

29. It is possible to criticize Israel,

Just don't use antisemitic tropes when doing so.

[PCIntern]

30. First of all...

Criticism of Israel is on two levels. The first level is criticism of internal politics and policies which are liberal versus conservative. No one would ever accuse anyone of being antisemitic in a fair discussion of these differences. The second level, and the contentious level, is the fundamental debate as to Israel, safety, and how it should be maintained. Israel has been essentially in a constant state of war against its people since 1948. Now this war is not a war of conquering and assimilation, but a war of conquering, and then extermination, thus the phrase used by. The enemies: “pushing the Jews into the sea“. There is no middle ground with the invading forces. They would finish the job did Hitler started: this is not my opinion, they have said it themselves. So I’m not interested in negotiating with people who want to see my family or me dead. There is no negotiation there is only death to them. If someone’s coming at your house with a shotgun pointing right at you, and you have a weapon, you fire at them before they fire at you, and you discuss it with the police after the fact.

Israel made the severe mistake of underestimating their enemies recently . During this era in which they have been in internal strife, Hamas found it surprisingly easy to achieve their goal of murdering as many people as possible, taking hostages for “negotiation”, and engendering a tremendous military response, which they are playing to their public relations advantage by decrying the deaths of “innocents” who were being used as human shields.

Israel has tolerated things which no sovereign state would normally tolerate, including café bombings, missiles, being launched en masse towards population centers, and constant threats of all types. As I have said, before, if missiles were being shot from Canada or Mexico into the United States, there would be an outpouring of armor and ammunition, the likes of which has not been seen since World War II. No sovereign state needs to tolerate this. So, if you decide for yourself what is an inappropriate response by this country, fighting for is survival, you are going to be labeled as something.

For all the countries in the world, where autocrats do horrendous things to their populace, and to those in countries surrounding them, only Israel comes under the microscope in the way that it does. And they are sick and tired of having to suffer just because they are Jewish. Actions have consequences, horrendous actions have horrendous consequences. You’re either with the Jews or you’re with the terrorists. If it’s the latter, then the chips will fall where they may.

[Firestorm49]

42. Well stated, PC Intern.

[TeamProg]

31. To be clear, Israel has an absolute right to be a nation in the ME.

Much of the area’s power had gone back and forth from Egyptian through Roman rule and beyond, right? Judea, Palestine. King David had once conquered the area just as Rome and Egypt had done. The Philistines were some the earliest of settlers. Obviously I’m not well studied on Canaan, but both peoples should have a claim to the land.

It is unfortunate that meaningful and historic religious sites can’t seem to be shared peacefully.

[msfiddlestix]

45. Because the issue is deeply root Religious Fundamentalism.It is the issue at the core of the never ending conflict

Religious Fundamentalism cannot be reasoned with. It is completely absent of Reason and Rational thought.

We have a dominance of "Christian" Fundamentalists in our population who also are not be reasoned with.

All Religious Fundamentalists believe they are "The Chosen Ones" and they're beliefs are the only valid systems of laws that must be adhered to.

It's been thus for over 2000 years.

[republianmushroom]

51. Because it is rooted in religion.

[HelpImSurrounded]

54. "Religion is the furthest thing from my mind" equals "I don't see color"

You're statement that "religion is the furthest thing from your mind" shows that you don't have a deep understanding of the conflict. Thus, people are going to ignore you or pile on with centuries of prepared rhetoric.

[BannonsLiver]

57. I don't see the problem discussing it

And I long ago sniffed out the few legitimate antisemites on this forum (one took their permanent leave yesterday.)

[xmas74]

94. Who left yesterday?

If you don't want to say here feel free to pm.

I always miss it.

[AntiFascist]

76. Bibi Netanyahu's actions and continuing calls to war and battle are only increasing worldwide anti-Semitism...

This cannot be good for the Israeli cause, but it does allow him to stay in power as long as there is war.
There needs to be an alternative to Hamas and an alternative to Netanyahu's right-wing governance.

[dlk]

77. Given the horrific atrocities just perpetrated on Jews in Israel

The timing of current criticism of Israel can look like victim blaming. It’s the timing, not whether or not Israel is deserving of any criticism.

[cab67]

80. I understand.

Nevertheless - a whole lot of us were staunchly opposed to the invasion of Iraq. That didn't make us anti-American.

Israel is far more than a geopolitical unit to most Jewish people. I get that.

[TeamProg]

81. Great point, that's a big part of the tension no doubt. nt

[cab67]

79. I've been attacked this way as well.

I draw a clear distinction between Judaism and Israel. I generally support Israel in this particular struggle, but I feel unable to level criticism of some of the tactics Israel has used without being labelled an antisemite.

I've been to Israel. I've seen things I find objectionable. This doesn't cause me to question the existence of Israel; rather, it means I disagree with some of the Israeli government's policies. I disagree with US policy from time to time, but I'm not anti-American. Same thing.

My wife is Jewish, and I've learned to keep my mouth tightly shut while visiting her wonderful family. She has relatives in Israel, some of whom are Holocaust survivors. I would never challenge their feelings about what Israel means. I think Netanyahu is a douchebag, and I think Israel's current policy of expanding Jewish settlement in the West Bank doesn't help de-escalate the situation, but I don't want to deal with false accusations that I'm somehow pro-Hamas (which is very far from the truth).

[TeamProg]

82. Well said, thank you. My bro in law is of Jewish heritage though he's pretty much agnostic. He's still proud of

his family line.

[nycbos]

83. Is criticism of Israel antisemitic?

That's not a binary question. Ned Flanders once asked Reverend Lovejoy is God punishing him. He replied "Short answer yes with an if long answer no with a but." Criticism of Israel in and of itself is not antisemitic. Some of the biggest "critics of Israel" are Israelis themselves. Before this attack, there were protests in the streets on going for months due to the fact that the current government is essentially trying to end the independence of the judiciary. I personally think Netanyahu is one of the biggest scumbags out there. There are certainly elements in Israeli society that are trying to turn the country into a Jewish version of Iran. They allow extremist settlers to attack Palestinians in the West Bank with little to no repercussions. None of those criticisms would be antisemitic.

Hamas, on the other hand, is a terrorist organization that not only calls for the destruction of Israel, it calls for the murder of all Jews everywhere. On one of the holiest days in Judaism, they attacked civilians in Israel and killed more Jews in a single day since the holocaust. People celebrated the attack around the world as it was happening. Hamas is shooting rockets at Israel while using their own people as human shields. If you were in that position what would you want your government to do? When you are being shot you have every right to shoot back.

[JayDem]

86. It seems to be wrapped up..

in Judaism being the predecessor to Christianity, and Americans' love affairs with supporting Israel. On a tour I was on in Jerusalem, the tour guide was asked if Israel ever ran a budget deficit. He did not understand the concept of a deficit, but did say that without the generous funding from the US, his nation would not exist. He admitted that America (the US) is Israel's largest source of funds. It does give one pause!

[Nanjeanne]

87. Particularly when they have universal healthcare. But that's another fight.

[TeamProg]

91. Yes, but if you say "the Benjamins" as AOC did, then WATCH OUT !

[pansypoo53219]

88. well, i say netanfuckyou. not anti isreal, just the asshole leader.

[raising2moredems]

89. Yeah.. I got a magats knickers in a knot when I said..

Both sides (Israel and Gaza) share blame, both share fault. And I still stand by that statement.

[stage left]

90. I am staying firmly out of this one. nt

[TeamProg]

92. Very few limbs to go out on. Close care is required. Religion is not accountable if it's

[stage left]

95. It's just a bad situation all the way around.

And it's been that way for a long time.

[IronLionZion]

96. There is a lot of irony when it's Jewish liberals

the hippie types want peace and have sympathy for the Palestinian people, who are also Semitic. There are always tons of Jewish people protesting Israeli policies outside the AIPAC conference in DC. They get called "self hating".

And Kibbutz people tend to be liberal peaceniks.

I would think at least some of us here understand that the people attacked by Hamas didn't deserve it, and plenty of people in Gaza don't deserve what is happening to them. Death and destruction are not less terrorizing when it's a military doing it. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone killing me regardless of who is doing the killing or why.

For comparison, do people remember the Bush years when anti-war activists were called traitors, Saddam loyalists, hate America, leave America, etc.? It's dangerous to conflate a government's policies with the people.

[LiberalFighter]

97. Israel as a country with people I don't have a problem.

It is who they elect.

[treestar]

104. No, it's a go to for somebody who doesn't want grey areas

The Palestinians don't have the news cycle the same way. The settlements and other things that happen to them are a day to day grind. Not interesting for news reports. Terrorist attacks make the news. Most know little about the settlements in what's left of of land for them, and the day to day restrictions on where they go, so it's easy to make them all into terrorists. And extremists are quoted from one side during all the news coverage.

[PBateman70]

108. Wholeheartedly

agree with your question and have wondered the sane thing. I actually saw Naftali Bennett in an interview equating sympathy for Palestinians as anti-semitic.