Exactly what is a kibbutz?

[Prairie_Seagull]

As violence erupted in Israel over the weekend, Hamas militants infiltrated several communal settlements known as kibbutz near the border with Gaza. Kibbutzim (plural) were fundamental to the founding of Israel and still hold a deeply symbolic position in the history of the country. Be’eri Kibbutz, a traditional commune in southern Israel, was hit particularly hard, with more than 100 bodies recovered.

Organized communities unique to Israel, kibbutzim were once known for their collectivist culture and agrarian lifestyle, though most have since been privatized. And even as many such communities become synonymous with tragedy, kibbutzim maintain a legacy as one of the most successful socialist experiments in history, with as many as 270 at their peak.

“No other movement has had 270 communities following such a similar philosophy” over such a long period of time, said David Leach, a professor at the University of Victoria in Canada and author of “Chasing Utopia: The Future of the Kibbutz in a Divided Israel.” “Part of their longevity is their willingness to evolve.”

Ran Abramitzky, a professor at Stanford and author of “The Mystery of the Kibbutz: Egalitarian Principles in a Capitalist World,” likened a typical kibbutz to a “picturesque village in the countryside,” with small apartments, lush walking paths and amenities, the kind of a place where children roam freely. They are built on principles of “communal and cooperative living, equal sharing and mutual assistance,” he said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/10/what-is-kibbutz-israel-hamas/

Were these people targeted due to the lives they lived? or where they just in concentrated numbers? Or both?

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Looks like both, with a shot of random thrown in.

[claudette]

2. I am so

astonished that there was so little security there. How were the terrorists able to enter so easily without being seen or heard? It is so sad

[IcyPeas]

19. Here's cctv footage of one security breach (30 second video)

[Tomconroy]

3. I think the kibbutz movement has strong ties to many

Jewish folks in the US. Others are more knowledgeable for sure. People I knew in college often spent a summer or more at one.

[Prairie_Seagull]

6. Pesonally, I remember reading something about them in the late 70s maybe early 80s.

Had an idea but nothing concrete. Doh

[claudette]

9. A family

member of mine went one summer for free as a descendant of a Jewish mother. He really enjoyed the stay

[Raftergirl]

12. There is now Birthright Israel. Almost all my friend's kids have done it.

It is free if you have one Jewish descendent and must be considered Jewish by a recognized Jewish denomination.

My kid had zero interest in going on Birthright.

https://www.birthrightisrael.com/eligibility

The Kibbutz programs (which are different from Birthright) were very popular when I was young (1960’s) but I’m sure some people likely still go.

I have not heard of anyone’s kids I know going on a kibbutz program in decades.

[ripcord]

4. They were targeted because they were Jewish

The kibbutzim are outside the cities, they are the first ones Hamas encountered and their separation made them easier targets.

[sarisataka]

5. The answer to your questions is neither

They were targeted because they were in Israel.

The same for those who were murdered raped and kidnapped at the music festival. They were in Israel and that was all the justification terrorists needed.

[Prairie_Seagull]

7. I have so much trouble getting my head around so much brutality and nearly blind hatred. nt

[marybourg]

8. Because they are Jews.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. It's a commune

[H2O Man]

15. +1

[hedda_foil]

11. They were targeted because they were the nearest Jews in isolated communities.

They and the kids at the concert in the desert were the easiest targets. The kids were unarmed and high in an isolated area with no protection. In the middle of the night, people in the kibbutz were asleep and the kids in the Negev were disoriented.

[ZonkerHarris]

13. Where is a kibbutz is the real question.

UN report from two weeks ago:
https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm

Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council

Pointing to ongoing expansion of Israeli settlements, demolition of Palestinian structures, daily violence and continued inflammatory rhetoric by their Government representatives, a senior United Nations official reiterated to the Security Council the Secretary-General’s appeal for an end to the occupation and a resolution of the conflict in pursuit of the two-State solution, as members echoed those calls and underlined a need to return to peace negotiations.

Tor Wennesland, United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, speaking via videoconference, reported ongoing settlement activity by Israeli authorities who advanced plans for 6,300 housing units in Area C, and approximately 3,580 housing units in East Jerusalem, pointing to the Israeli Government’s administrative actions that likely expedited settlement expansion. “In a continuing trend, many Palestinians, including children, left from their communities citing violence by settlers and shrinking grazing land,” he said.

He noted that 68 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces and 10 Israelis by Palestinians in attacks and other incidents. Detailing the urgent funding needs of United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) and the World Food Programme (WFP), he highlighted Secretary-General Antonio Guterres’ call on the Government of Israel to cease all settlement activity and the demolitions and seizures of Palestinian structures, as well as the UN chief’s support to Palestinians and Israelis in pursuit of the two-State solution.

In the ensuing discussion, Council members stressed that the expanding Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory are a violation of international law and must cease. Speakers voiced concern about the ongoing violence and lack of political progress on the thirtieth anniversary of the Oslo I Accord, this year, and called on parties to exercise maximum restraint and take steps to deescalate tensions.

The representative of the United States said the ongoing violence between Israelis and Palestinians sets back prospects for peace and is responsible for “so much needless suffering”. Voicing concern over the situation in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, she said the United States opposes the advancement of settlements and urges Israel to refrain from those actions, emphasizing that it undermines “the geographic viability of a two-State solution, exacerbates tensions and further harms trust between the two parties”.

Other speakers, including Gabon’s representative, also called for the lifting of the Gaza blockade in line with Council resolution 1860 (2009), noting that Palestinian territories face budgetary constraints because of restrictions on freedom of movement and trade. Switzerland’s representative pointed out that the immediate reopening of the crossing point is necessary to allow some 20,000 Gazans to go to work in Israel.

[Prairie_Seagull]

14. For arguments sake lets just say this arguemnt is valid. Do you draw no brutality line in the sand?

What if Hamas nuked Tel Aviv? The argument is about the brutality of the actions, not the long standing fight. Are there no limits?

Further, few are equipped to settle this on DU. I am certainly not. We can agree however when a line is crossed. It has been.

IMO

[ZonkerHarris]

20. I believe the people who committed these atrocities must pay a price. But does every citizen in Gaza

need to pay that price?
The thing that bothers me is that everyone is acting like these attacks happened in a vacuum.
Like Neither side had ever attacked the other before.
Bibi Netanyahu and Israel straight up oppress Gaza
Maybe they do it because they think they have to but all it does is continue a cycle of violence on both sides.
We have seen situations like this in the past around the world.
South Africa, Belfast Ireland, and many more
The cycle of violence was stopped in South Africa and Belfast, but it took serious work from both sides to achieve that peace.
First and foremost it took forgiveness.
And accountability for those who did wrong.
Giving peace a chance Is the hardest thing humans can attempt and it has worked when countries and their political leaders are held accountable and the citizenry is led to the right decision.
Otherwise we're going to see more Israelis attacked, and the Gaza Strip flattened like a pancake from Israeli bombs.

[sarisataka]

16. So is that justification for murdering children?

Let's not get bogged down in the "minutiae" of their ages and were they beheaded. Many sources have reported children were among those slaughtered.

Can you acknowledge the Hamas intentionally murdered children?

Hopefully that is yes, the would so say the facts UN report is sufficient to justify Hamas murdering Israeli children?

[maxsolomon]

18. Are West Bank Settlements Kibbutz?

I don't see that word in the snip you posted.

[ZonkerHarris]

21. There are now about 25 kibbutz settlements in the occupied West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights,

with another ten on the drawing board.
Israel's never-ending expansion into this territory is seen as aggression by the Palestinians.
Every Settlement means there's less land for the Palestinians to live on and they're crammed into a tighter and tighter area

[maxsolomon]

22. I'm aware of west bank settlement expansion.

I just didn't know they were considered kibbutz, which I've always associated with socialism.

[no_hypocrisy]

17. Like a socialist commune.