Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Cyrano

(15,030 posts)
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 03:28 PM Oct 2023

It's impossible to understand the Israeli/Palestinian divide, without understanding some history.

Israel was recognized as a state in 1947 by the United Nations. Up until then, Great Britain controlled all of Palestine.

When the British pulled out in 1948, Israel declared itself a state and the new nation was immediately attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

The Jews repelled them and survived.

Over time, with the help of the U.S., Israel become the most advanced, powerful country in that part of the world, and America's closest and only democratic ally in the region.

There have been a few open wars between Israel and various Arab countries since then, but Israel always prevailed.

That's all in the past. Today, Israel's government is as divided as our own. And many Israeli's believe that their leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, is as corrupt and as unfit to govern as we consider Trump. The divide in Israel has grown wider over the past decade or so.

And now comes this attack by Hamas. Israel is in a bind. They have always been determined to save any single hostage. Now, they are faced with over a hundred hostages. What to do?

In the heat/anger/frustration of the moment, I've heard a few people say things like: "Bomb Gaza into the dark ages. And if the two million human beings who live in Gaza all die, so what?" Any Jew who thinks this way is, in effect, (whether they understand it or not), calling for another Holocaust.

Every American president since Harry Truman has tried "solving" the middle-Eastern "problem." None have succeeded.

What will be the outcome as a result of the Hamas raid on Israel? No one knows. And no one with any sense has tried to predict the future of the middle-East for the past 75 years.

But one thing we can be sure of. This situation is going to get a lot uglier before it gets better. And as much as I hope for the best, I expect the worst.







53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
It's impossible to understand the Israeli/Palestinian divide, without understanding some history. (Original Post) Cyrano Oct 2023 OP
I don't consider Israel a democracy. roamer65 Oct 2023 #1
Literally everyone who isn't a Hamas sympathizer TexasDem69 Oct 2023 #7
I stand for a negotiated two state settlement. roamer65 Oct 2023 #20
Hamas, the PLO and others TexasDem69 Oct 2023 #24
Then go to Israel and fight. roamer65 Oct 2023 #26
I can't figure out if you support Hamas TexasDem69 Oct 2023 #29
That's because both sides are hypocrites. roamer65 Oct 2023 #30
Pretty sure I'd rather be governed by the Israeli government than Hams prodigitalson Oct 2023 #47
++++ True Blue American Oct 2023 #28
The Palestinians rejected the fair compromise brokered by President Clinton tritsofme Oct 2023 #31
Yitzhak Rabin, a true man of peace was killed by a Zionist. roamer65 Oct 2023 #32
And Netanyahu was part of a group fomenting extreme Anti Rabin sentiments back then electric_blue68 Oct 2023 #40
Yes he was Israeli Oct 2023 #46
Thank you Israeli Oct 2023 #45
Arafat fucked that up. prodigitalson Oct 2023 #48
"I don't consider Israel a democracy." EX500rider Oct 2023 #18
I think of the Palestinians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories as being "gerrymandered" into a.... EarnestPutz Oct 2023 #35
Absolutely Correct greblach Oct 2023 #21
Jimmy Carter is a great man...and a Christian the way Jesus said to be one prodigitalson Oct 2023 #49
That was one hell of a glossed over "history" . JFC The_Casual_Observer Oct 2023 #2
Sorry. Couldn't write a volume in a single post. Cyrano Oct 2023 #3
"up until then it was controlled by the British" The_Casual_Observer Oct 2023 #5
For about 30 years AZSkiffyGeek Oct 2023 #9
The British controlled Palestine from 1920 under a mandate Cyrano Oct 2023 #10
King David Hotel, 1946. roamer65 Oct 2023 #23
You're observing a bit too casually. Igel Oct 2023 #33
Left out a whole bunch of chapters Deuxcents Oct 2023 #4
This is the worst "history" claim I have witnessed RAB910 Oct 2023 #6
Okay. Please enlighten me. Cyrano Oct 2023 #12
here RAB910 Oct 2023 #42
Wow, talk about propaganda. Cyrano Oct 2023 #50
The United States didn't keep Germany, Italy, and Japan as their own after the war RAB910 Oct 2023 #51
I'm going to... 2naSalit Oct 2023 #8
Good idea, 2naSalit. I'm gonna' take a ton of crap from many for this post Cyrano Oct 2023 #14
It's too easy to... 2naSalit Oct 2023 #17
My take: Israel wants a righteous war and they got it Tetrachloride Oct 2023 #11
Yeah when 5000 bombs land in your yard, you don't shrug your shoulders. jimfields33 Oct 2023 #13
The neighboring countries help keep borders a little tight, and simultaneously provide a measure of Tetrachloride Oct 2023 #16
"The old codgers of Israel created the most trouble"??? Cyrano Oct 2023 #22
Which children did Israel TexasDem69 Oct 2023 #25
The United Nations established Israel as a "national home for the Jewish people,". marybourg Oct 2023 #15
+1 2naSalit Oct 2023 #19
Thx for the summary Demovictory9 Oct 2023 #27
I think a bit more nuance is needed Lithos Oct 2023 #34
Amen to that. Joinfortmill Oct 2023 #36
There is no solution, only more civilian deaths. Aussie105 Oct 2023 #37
This is a very sensitive topic with many people here. I waited a day before saying PatrickforB Oct 2023 #38
Plus 1 Tetrachloride Oct 2023 #39
Great post Celerity Oct 2023 #43
Thank you. niyad Oct 2023 #53
Other other thing to understand - British tactics in WWII... haele Oct 2023 #41
K & R malaise Oct 2023 #44
LEBENSRAUM. Ron Green Oct 2023 #52

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
1. I don't consider Israel a democracy.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 03:33 PM
Oct 2023

No more than I considered Apartheid South Africa to be a democracy.

True democracy is when ALL of the people under the control of your government experience peace and freedom.

Hopefully this conflict brings all to the table to start true peace negotiations. I wish President Carter was 20 years younger.

President Carter did more for Middle East Peace than everyone since combined.

TexasDem69

(1,683 posts)
7. Literally everyone who isn't a Hamas sympathizer
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:01 PM
Oct 2023

Considers Israel a democracy. Including the United States, United Kingdom, etc.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
20. I stand for a negotiated two state settlement.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:38 PM
Oct 2023

The international community has failed both sides in this conflict.

You stand for war.

TexasDem69

(1,683 posts)
24. Hamas, the PLO and others
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:44 PM
Oct 2023

Had every opportunity for a negotiated two state settlement. They rejected it. I don’t “stand for war” but I do support Israel’s right to self-defense, and the eradication of the Nazi terrorists who comprise Hamas

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
26. Then go to Israel and fight.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:46 PM
Oct 2023

“I don’t stand for war”. But then you call for the eradication of human beings.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
30. That's because both sides are hypocrites.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:22 PM
Oct 2023

…and I see through their bullshit.

Meanwhile innocent people are dying because of Abrahamic death cult bullshit.

…and your eradication statement sure sounds like advocating genocide.


prodigitalson

(2,381 posts)
47. Pretty sure I'd rather be governed by the Israeli government than Hams
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 08:59 AM
Oct 2023

having said that. I support a two state solution that includes a contiguous Palestine not chopped up by Israeli settlements.

tritsofme

(17,371 posts)
31. The Palestinians rejected the fair compromise brokered by President Clinton
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:27 PM
Oct 2023

that would have made the two state solution a reality, and chose war.

Their leaders have never wanted peace, just Israel’s eradication.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
32. Yitzhak Rabin, a true man of peace was killed by a Zionist.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:33 PM
Oct 2023

There is crap on all sides of this stupid conflict.

In some ways, maybe the international community needs to take the Roman Empire approach to obtain peace in the region.

EX500rider

(10,813 posts)
18. "I don't consider Israel a democracy."
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:28 PM
Oct 2023

Yes, it is more of parliamentary democracy.

Can all Israeli citizens vote? yes

Can non-citizens who don't live in the boundaries of Israel vote, no, why would they be able to?

EarnestPutz

(2,118 posts)
35. I think of the Palestinians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories as being "gerrymandered" into a....
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:58 PM
Oct 2023

.....district of "Greater Palestine" where there are denied voting rights and a right to representation. Further they are forever stymied in obtaining a separate state, with a seaport, airport and freedom to travel or import/export goods. Let alone to have a military or a real presence on the world stage. Israel is the regional "superpower" and is happy with the status quo of keeping Palestinians under their thumb and at the mercy of Hamas. Every so often they blow up in frustration, get their "terrorist" punch card validated or have another "intifada" and we send another billion in military aid to Israel, itself an exporter of military hardware, to replace the munitions used to kill more descendants of Abraham.

greblach

(257 posts)
21. Absolutely Correct
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:39 PM
Oct 2023

Carter and the Camp David accord was the best anyone has done to work on the Mid East Peace...

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,975 posts)
9. For about 30 years
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:08 PM
Oct 2023

It was under Turkish control for centuries before that. Palestine was never an independent nation.

Igel

(35,282 posts)
33. You're observing a bit too casually.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:51 PM
Oct 2023

Even under the LoN's mandate, the British really didn't change much. They were caretakers and to a large extent just wanted out.

For example, to make the local majority happy they barred Jewish immigration, and had trouble with stopping illegal immigration by Jews (which led to raids and pogroms that the Klan would have liked). They left the hodge-podge of Ottoman-era laws in place, there was no real colonialization or attempt to reform things massively.

Essentially, the Ottoman Empire lost control over these territories as the result of WWI (now *there's* imperialism and colonialism much closer to 'from the beginning of time', complete with relocating populations to both fragment any local resistance to Ottoman rule as well as disperse resistance from the relocated populations' original territories).

Deuxcents

(16,096 posts)
4. Left out a whole bunch of chapters
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 03:50 PM
Oct 2023

Of a very complicated region that was even more complex because the issue of the Palestinians was never resolved. www.amnesty.org has a good read called Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories. I think the whole of humanity calls out for equality but when it’s denied, violence happens and that’s not the answer.

RAB910

(3,490 posts)
6. This is the worst "history" claim I have witnessed
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 03:56 PM
Oct 2023

This propaganda, not an accurate recounting of what happened in the region

Cyrano

(15,030 posts)
50. Wow, talk about propaganda.
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 09:09 AM
Oct 2023

Much of the territories occupied by Israel came about, mostly, due to wars in which Israel was attacked by Arab countries. And each time a reasonable peace proposal was put on the table, the Palestinians turned it down. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton tried to be fair mediators, but to no avail.

As I mentioned previously, about half the current Israeli population doesn't approve of the policies of their current government run by Netanyahu and a minority of extremists. (Much like what has gone on in America under Trump.) However, this raid by Hamas has changed everything. What the future holds is anyone's guess, but it's going to get very ugly before it gets better.

RAB910

(3,490 posts)
51. The United States didn't keep Germany, Italy, and Japan as their own after the war
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 09:15 AM
Oct 2023

It's immoral for Israel to rob others of their land, no matter how one tries to spin it.

PS- the word you are looking for is "STOLEN" not "occupied". One "occupies" a bathroom, one "STEALS" land that doesn't belong to them (especially when they build settlements on the stolen land)

2naSalit

(86,393 posts)
17. It's too easy to...
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:27 PM
Oct 2023

Take immediate outrage for actual facts and history. And then the mis/dis-information machine is firing on all cylinders, not a good time to quickly choose sides.

I certainly don't have enough info to form a full on opinion yet.

Tetrachloride

(7,820 posts)
16. The neighboring countries help keep borders a little tight, and simultaneously provide a measure of
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:26 PM
Oct 2023

Moral support

That is, the blame game has thousands of dead bodies.

If the blame game wants millions of more dead bodies, the population is there.

The old codgers of Israel created the most trouble

Cyrano

(15,030 posts)
22. "The old codgers of Israel created the most trouble"???
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:40 PM
Oct 2023

Okay. I guess that none of the other democracies in the Middle East tried to prevent them from doing so.

TexasDem69

(1,683 posts)
25. Which children did Israel
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:46 PM
Oct 2023

Parade around after kidnapping them, or which music festival did Israel attack and slaughter hundreds of civilians, including numerous non-Israelis?

marybourg

(12,602 posts)
15. The United Nations established Israel as a "national home for the Jewish people,".
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 04:23 PM
Oct 2023

A capsule history of the early days of Israel follows: (everyone should know at least this much)


Following World War II and the Holocaust, the newly formed United Nations adopted the Partition Plan for Palestine, recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, and placing Jerusalem under international control. In the final months of the British Mandate, a civil war broke out between the Palestinian Arabs and the Yishuv, beginning the first stage of the 1948 Palestine war. The British terminated the Mandate on 14 May 1948, and Israel declared independence that day.

Upon its independence, Israel became almost immediately embroiled in conflict with its five neighboring Arab states, whose armies began entering the area of the former Mandatory Palestine on 15 May, starting the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Early the next year, the 1949 Armistice Agreements left Israel in control of over one-third more territory than the partition plan had called for, with no independent Arab state created. During both stages of the 1948 Palestine war, over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from or fled Israeli territory to Jordanian-ruled West Bank, Egyptian-controlled Gaza, and the neighboring Arab countries, with fewer than 150,000 Palestinian Arabs remaining within Israel. During and immediately after the war, around 260,000 Jews emigrated or fled from the Arab world to Israel.[21][fn 6] The 1967 Six-Day War resulted in the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, along with the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and the Syrian Golan Heights. Israel has since effectively annexed both East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, and has established settlements across . . .


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Lithos

(26,403 posts)
34. I think a bit more nuance is needed
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 05:52 PM
Oct 2023

You posted a summary - for the most part what you wrote is correct. But it is woefully incomplete lacking detail, perspective and nuance. History also is heavily invoked when trying to establish some moral supremacy for one side over the other.

Maybe a better start would be with the idea that Hamas and Likud are two halves of the same corrupt coin and explore how this impacts the current political behavior.


L-

Aussie105

(5,334 posts)
37. There is no solution, only more civilian deaths.
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 06:36 PM
Oct 2023

Both sides are right, but both want the impossible.

Palestinians want the Israelis to just go away.

The Israelis just want the Palestinians to do the same.

Hopefully America won't just send weapons of war to Israel to 'help', because the Palestinians have their backers too.
The fighting will just escalate.

Meanwhile, the hard liners on both sides make it less likely a peaceful solution will be found.

PatrickforB

(14,561 posts)
38. This is a very sensitive topic with many people here. I waited a day before saying
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 06:59 PM
Oct 2023

anything.

The Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip and West Bank are kept separate, and live without many of the things we take for granted here. Essentially, they have lived under military occupation. The Israelis also have suffered greatly, and before there was an Israel, Jews worldwide have suffered under pogroms, discrimination, and a Holocaust breathtaking in its evil. Our longstanding policy of support for Israel grows from our promise to help Jewish Holocaust survivors form their own sovereign nation. The Biden administration has committed to continue this support.

Many have died on both sides over seven decades, and now Hamas has struck a blow militarily comparable to Ho Chi Minh's Tet Offensive. They will lose the battle for sure, but the long-term war for a two-state solution may have a different outcome. Israel cannot keep the Palestinians living there under what is essentially an Apartheid system any more than we could keep African Americans under a system of Jim Crow segregation. Nor could South Africa sustain this approach to governing.

The problem is hatred and greed. Anytime we hate the 'other' and see them as less than human, then we have violence and war. People generally don't want war, though. Most people, unless heavily propagandized, merely want a decent job, shelter, food, water, healthcare, dental care, child care, education and safety. They want a better future for their kids. Unfortunately, a whole bunch of very well-funded forces are continually trying to gin up genuine hatred worldwide. The right question to ask anytime we see a war begin is who profits from it?

I guess the rhetorical question that comes to my mind is when will we grow up as a species and start planning forward around human need instead of human greed? On this planet eleven people per minute die of starvation. Whole swaths of our earth are becoming uninhabitable and millions do not even have potable water. The oceans are dying and we are presiding over the greatest mass extinction since the dinosaurs died out.

But instead of planting forests, reducing carbon emissions, working to rebuild biodiversity and ensure that people have enough, we allow oppressive conditions to prevail in much of the world. Here's a nice song written by Bob Dylan in 1962, and still quite relevant now. Blowin' in the Wind:

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, and how many times must the cannonballs fly
Before they're forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

Yes, and how many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
And how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, and how many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

Yes, and how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
And how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

haele

(12,640 posts)
41. Other other thing to understand - British tactics in WWII...
Sun Oct 8, 2023, 10:15 PM
Oct 2023

The Brits needed more troops to sweep up through the Levant into Turkey to cut off German access to oil. The Jordanian king claimed neutrality, but provided oil to both the Allies and Axis, so not to be trusted.

So, they promised the local Zionist militia group that had been causing them all sorts of hassles a Jewish Homeland, and then turned around and also promised the Palestinian Beduin tribal groups their own state - so long as both groups fought alongside the Brits.

Mind you, before then, for the most part, Christians, Jews, and Muslims had been living in relative peace for almost 400 years under the Ottoman Turks. Churches, mosques, and temples could be found in adjoining neighborhoods, and these people worked with and lived next to each other.

But because the British promises over the same land to the two major radical local sects in that land area for their "rule", conflict arose.

And of course, they each used this as an excuse for the killing starting with the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 before Israel declared independence in 1948.

I'm of a "pox on both your houses". Neither of the combatant hardliner groups give a shit about anything but their personal little religious/cultural kingdoms, screw the rest of the population that just wants to live in peace.

Haele

Ron Green

(9,822 posts)
52. LEBENSRAUM.
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 09:53 AM
Oct 2023

That’s what Israel’s been doing for years, now. Where could they have ever learned that?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»It's impossible to unders...