America doesn't need more God. It needs more atheists.

[Nevilledog]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/03/kate-cohen-atheism/

No paywall
https://archive.ph/frlvD


*snip*

Peel back the layers of discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, though, and you find religion. Peel back the layers of control over women’s bodies — from dress codes that punish girls for male desire all the way to the Supreme Court striking down Roe v. Wade — and you find religion. Often, there isn’t much peeling to do. According to the bill itself, Missouri’s total abortion ban was created “in recognition that Almighty God is the author of life.” Say what, now?

Peel back the layers of abstinence-only or marriage-centered or anti-homosexual sex education and you find religion. “Don’t say gay” laws, laws denying trans kids medical care, school-library book bans and even efforts to suppress the teaching of inconvenient historical facts — motivated by religion.

And when religion loses a fight and progress wins instead? Religion then claims it’s not subject to the resulting laws. “Religious belief” is — more and more, at the state and federal levels — a way to sidestep advances the country makes in civil rights, human rights and public health.

In 45 states and D.C., parents can get religious exemptions from laws that require schoolchildren to be vaccinated. Seven states allow pharmacists to refuse to fill contraceptive prescriptions because of their religious beliefs. Every business with a federal contract has to comply with federal nondiscrimination rules — unless it’s a religious organization. Every employer that provides health insurance has to comply with the Affordable Care Act’s contraceptive mandate — unless it’s, say, a craft supply store with Christian owners.

*snip*

[MiHale]

1. god sucks, don't believe it...ask him yourself...

Proud, loud atheist for 60 out of 70 years.

[Sky Jewels]

12. "He" a cruel dickhead and a murderous sociopath.

I'm glad that monster doesn't actually exist.

[Sky Jewels]

56. How old are you?

And why would you believe in something supported by zero evidence?

I appreciate the beauty of nature, but that doesn't mean some magical being "created" it.

[mwb970]

149. I knew at age 7 that it was all crazy nonsense.

[docgee]

155. Exactly. Same time I stopped believing in Santa Claus.

[docgee]

212. Ummmm, ok

No, I don't have any desire to explore spirituality.

You are correct in that there is no need to believe in superstition to be a good person.

Also what the hell is ascension into 5D?

[Butterflylady]

264. Age 8 I asked my grandmother..

How come in the Bible it says Adam and Eve were the first humans created and they had 2 sons. Well if they were the first ones created and their sons had wives, where did the wives come from.
My grandmother was a very religious person looked at me said you have to have faith.
That's when I knew it was nothing but a fairy tale.

[vlyons]

2. It needs more Buddhism

Buddhism is not a religion, altho some people treat it as such. It is a non-theistic practice of controlling one's own body, speech, and mind. Based deeply on an ethical morality and respect for all sentient beings.

[cilla4progress]

7. I had an interest, and many people I respect are Buddhist,

but I got held up by the concept of karma which (as I understand it) states that if you are experiencing harsh conditions in your current life, it's due to malfeasance in your previous incarnations.

Sounds too much like blame the victim, to me!

[prodigitalson]

24. well it did spring from Hinduism

[vlyons]

76. not really. that is a misconception

there is no creator god in Buddhism. And no one, god or hero, is coming to "save" you. Only you can create the conditions for your own happiness. Buddha completely rejected the caste system of Hinduism.

[Martin68]

85. That's a fact. Sidartha studied many different religions and mental disciplines before he developed

a new approach to living a better life.

[ancianita]

106. Maybe at the same time?

Buddhism and Hinduism have common origins in the culture of Ancient India.
Buddhism arose in the Gangetic plains of Eastern India in the 5th century BCE during the "second urbanisation" (600 BCE - 200 BCE).[1] Hinduism developed as a fusion[2][note 1] or synthesis[3][note 2] of practices and ideas from the ancient Vedic religion and elements and deities from other local Indian traditions.[3][note 3] This Hindu synthesis emerged after the Vedic period, between 500[3]-200[4] BCE and c. 300 CE ...

Buddhism and Hinduism share numerous terms and ideas. Examples include: dharma, karma, samadhi, samsara, dhyana, jñana, klesha, nirodha, samskāra, brahmin, brahmacarya, nirvana.[43]

Indian Buddhists and Hindus also used the Sanskrit language as a religious and scholarly language. Sanskrit terminology remains important for both Buddhists and Hindus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Hinduism

[Martin68]

129. It is clear that buddhism strongly influenced Hinduism, including the prohibition to eat meat.

Many scholars believe the Bhavagad Gita was Hindu response to Buddhism.

[prodigitalson]

125. well yeah, the rejection is the springing

I mean we don't say Jesus or Mohammad rejected the caste system of Hinduism.

[vlyons]

31. karma just means "action"

That all actions have consequences. Another way to understand it is that all things arise from previous causes and conditions. Buddhist philosophy and psychology of how the mind works is quite profound.

[FreeState]

123. Until you realize Karma is harmfu

Last edited Tue Oct 3, 2023, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)

If you’re a traditional Buddhist (I use to be one) karma means kids shot in schools deserved it. The problem of evil isn’t overcome in Buddhism unfortunately.

[Martin68]

132. It is true that the concept of Karma was used to rationalize the caste system. It allowed

the wealthy to assume they were wealthy because they had lived good past lives, while the poor and the outcast were experiencing punishment for evil deeds in past lives. Like American conservatives, that meant poverty was god's will, and the rich had no obligation to help the poor, the disabled, and the infirm.

The Buddha, like Jesus, preached compassion, but conservatives of all religions always revert to a position that caters to the wealthy and despises the poor.

[Stargazer99]

146. I believe we have the ability to choose our conduct no one is forcing our behavior

and innocent people can be harmed by another without "deserving it" do to our ability to choose how we conduct ourselves. Those who have been harmed by another can be an innocent bystander. We were not made automations we have some choice as to our behavior. The religion you are thinking of is man's interpretation
of God, as I do not believe the Bible was written word for word by God.
When the 3 men came to Jesus and said Master who do we follow and Jesus response was to see their fruits first.

[llashram]

18. ++

yoga and the meditative calmness found for me...and I found that Buddhism does not interfere with any belief in any other religion or one's faith.

[vlyons]

33. For many years now, the Dalai Lama has been advocating secular ethics are not based on any

religion.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

131. Is he still saying that the only way a woman can become

A Dalai Lama is if she's attractive? That's been his go-to remark about the matter for decades.

[vlyons]

133. Nonsense, he's never said anything like that

He is deeply respectful of woman. I heard him give a talk in Dallas, in which he said that women have greater capacity to practice compassion.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

136. I provided a link where he did say it

Ignore it if you like, but that doesn't change the reality of it.

And here's another link about him saying it in 2019:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/dalai-lama-sorry-saying-female-successor-would-have-be-attractive-n1025756

And another, from 2015:

https://qz.com/511091/the-dalai-lama-says-any-female-successor-would-have-to-be-very-attractive

[Happy Hoosier]

58. Don't Buddhists believe in reincarnation?

Serioyusly asking.... I have thought they do.

That's a definite deal-killer for me.

YOLO.

[vlyons]

77. Yes many do

Personally, I don't know if it's true or not, so I try to keep an open mind about it. What's important to me is to just be a good person and live an ethically moral life.

[Happy Hoosier]

79. Fair enough...

I can do that on my own, I think.

Cheers.

[Warpy]

75. Buddhists don't always live up to the advertising

I remember a Donnybrook some years ago between one Buddhist sect going to one of their shrines meeting another sect coming back.

Where there is doctrine, there will be conflicts, I guess. The monks involved were defrocked and sent packing by both monasteries.

However, on the whole, I'd have to agree with you. Buddhism demands neither converts nor martyrs. The Buddha himself said not to believe a word he said, but to enter the practice of meditation to verify or disprove it.

I've often thought only Buddhists and Quakers really got the point, coming from completely different starting positions. Maybe what we need in the west is more Quakers.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

130. No, we don't.

Buddhism has its own problems.

Sexism is rampant in the religion as it's practiced. Traditionally, Buddhism has taught that women are incapable of escaping samsara to become a buddha unless they reincarnate as a man in a next life.

The rules for monks regarding women are based in as much sexist stupidity as any of the desert religions. Nuns are expected to follow more rules than the monks, including a prohibition against arousing men. Their scriptures are also full of sexist blather when it comes to the monastics:

https://qz.com/india/586192/theres-a-misogynist-aspect-of-buddhism-that-nobody-talks-about

While you're at it name a Buddhist-dominant culture that isn't exceedingly sexist.

I'll wait on that one.

But wait! There's more! Like the sexist trash that spews form the mouth of that guy in your avatar:

The 14th Dalai Lama did say that a woman could be chosen as his replacement, but also, jokingly, that she would need to be “attractive”. He apologized for the comment in 2019, but it’s a line he has gleefully repeated over the years. In 2010, he told a reporter that the first time someone asked him about the possibility of a female Dalai Lama 20 or 30 years before, he had said yes but then added that “if she is an ugly female, she won’t be very effective, will she?”

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/dec/08/meditation-spirtual-sexism-womens-retreats

So, no, we don't need Buddhism, either, thanks very much.

[Farmer-Rick]

214. They are the ones who believe mummies have reached nirvana

To end this cycle of rebirth and death and reach nirvana, Monks in some Buddhist sects use to kill themselves in a manner that would mummify their bodies. They believed the mummified remains indicated the Monk had reached their nirvana because only mummified remains were pure. The bodies are still worshipped today.

The practice of self mummification has been outlawed.

So, yeah it's a religion.

[redqueen]

3. *the world

But yeah, as far as western countries to we're the worst when it comes to letting go of organized religion

[Sky Jewels]

21. I'm hoping Gen Z will help kill it off eventually.

It needs to die. Religion is poison in so many ways.

[ismnotwasm]

67. It won't though, die that is. Not for a long time

Lots of religious GenZ around. I think as long as there is mystery, there will be religion. It’s seems to be one of the the way humans organize themselves into groups.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

93. My theory is that people who aren't very religious become vulnerable when they have children.

Social pressures caused them to start taking their kids to church so of course they have to go too. and once you’re in social pressures, just keep making you dig further into it.

[SouthernDem4ever]

69. What sickening is they don't pay taxes and most of the mega church leaders enrich themselves

They don't really care about anyone else, but they pretend to so much they start believing what they are doing is ok.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. IMO, there's lots of atheists roaming around.

They just haven’t acknowledged it yet.

[thesquanderer]

43. That's one of the topics discussed in the linked article. n/t

[AllyCat]

87. Tell someone you are an atheist and most freak out

Atheists are definitely discriminated against.

[no_hypocrisy]

94. Total agreement

My father screamed at me “You’re a godless Communist!”

On Christmas Day no less.

[AllyCat]

95. Boo. I'm sorry.

My sisters and a dear friend feel that my atheism/agnosticism is “a phase”, a sign I “have not completed my spiritual journey”, and “I just haven’t found the right path”. One said “aren’t you afraid you might be wrong?”

[GoneOffShore]

115. The inevitable Pascal's Wager - Which is one I have refused to make.

[ExWhoDoesntCare]

135. Tell them they're in more danger if they're wrong

Than an atheist is.

What happens to the theists if it turns out *none* of them were right about who the real deity was? What if there is a deity, but not who they thought it was? Worse, what happens if he the one big no-no for him is worshiping the *wrong* deity, rather than using one's brains to dismiss those quacks and demand credible evidence for a deity?

Then the atheists are the only ones who will pass muster, because they didn't buy the BS about the false deities.

And here's the ultimate kicker: There's exactly as much evidence for that deity's existence as there is for any other.

[hunter]

104. The correct answer to that is "Why, thank you!"

The religious battles in my childhood were pretty spectacular around Christmas. The only religion my grandparents had in common was "Not Mormon!"

There were constant battles over when, how, or if Christmas ought to be celebrated.

I had only one grandparent who celebrated the traditional sort of U.S.A. Santa Claus Christmas promoted on television.

From my childhood perspective Christmas was a time when all the adults went insane.

[ForgedCrank]

101. I know

how you feel. I'm a Christian on this forum.

[AnrothElf]

145. YyyyyyyyyyyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuP.

Only immediate family and close friends know I'm atheist. Nobody at work has any idea except Rick, who after almost a decade working together is now a "close friend".

[airplaneman]

147. I agree. Religion, Politics, Your wealth, and even music is best kept to yourself.

Except to a close friend.
-Airplane

[Celerity]

164. It's all out in the open for me. I will never closet myself.

[stuck in the middle]

253. "Kids sure play funny music these days, ..."

"And they play it in the strangest ways."

It's all out in the open for me. I will never closet myself.

Johnny Cash - What Is Truth?

[Celerity]

259. Miss Monique - Siona Records: 4th Anniversary @ Mykonos [Melodic Techno DJ Mix] 4K

I'm glad to share with you a special mix for our Siona Records 4th Anniversary
I was happy to record new Dj Mix on Mykonos Island (Greece) this year
Cheers, your Miss Monique ˆ_ˆ

Location: Cavo Paradiso (https://www.cavoparadiso.gr/)

https://www.instagram.com/djmissmonique/

[Mariana]

248. The Bible clearly teaches that unbelievers are bad people.

This theme runs throughout the entire book, in both Testaments. It's no surprise that so many Christians believe it.

[Butterflylady]

265. Yes they are and I don't know why.

I've known a lot of atheist and they have more morals than most Christians I know.

[betsuni]

5. No.

[Blues Heron]

6. it does - you cant run a modern country with people that believe in leprechauns

[betsuni]

9. No. I live in Japan. Extremely conservative and all the bullshit and NOT RELIGIOUS.

The U.S. just has a minority nutty religious faction. It's always something.

[Sky Jewels]

15. Most Americans believe that stupid supernatural mythology

made up by primitive Middle Eastern goatherders is "true." It's not a nutty minority -- it's a nutty majority. Most of them still buy into the concept of an invisible sky wizard that pulls the strings in the universe. Oh, and of course "he" is a male.

And not only that. Look at these numbers. A large majority still believes that angels and "the devil" are real things. In "modern" times. How absolutely pathetic is that? It's beyond embarrassing when compared to other "advanced" and better educated countries, especially.

No wonder so few Americans have any rational thinking abilities.

[Ligyron]

134. The thing that really gets me is...

That somebody, at some point, had to make up all that crap out of whole cloth...

Just invent a whole BS belief system and it's happened independently in various places across the globe and it fascinates me trying to imagine how this came about.

Once one gets going, it no doubt was embellished by others along the way, at times no doubt stealing ideas from other "religions" and cultures.

But in the beginning, somebody had to just make it all up, probably being well aware it was BS too.

[OldBaldy1701E]

154. Yep.

[Sky Jewels]

165. I know! It's like, okay, you want a straightforward mythology,

then sun worship is it. We know the sun exists and makes life on earth possible. The sun makes itself known. It’s very hot and bright, just like you’d expect of your deity. But all this stupid shit with God/Allah/Yahweh/Jesus/Muhammad, etc., … none of it makes one iota of sense!

[betsuni]

177. Yes.

[Blues Heron]

20. There are temples everywhere in Japan, packed with people leaving offerings

Writing down wishes and prayers. Its ubiquitous.

[betsuni]

175. No, nothing like fundamentalist religion. It's superstition.

People have Buddhist funerals and Shinto weddings. It's not religious, it's habit.

Many people have shrines of ancestors in their homes, like we do. My husband prays to them every day, sometimes leaves food and drinks. Is he religious? No. I'm an atheist too, but I respect cultural habits.

[masmdu]

153. I'm pretty sure Japan is not "NOT RELIGIOUS"

Shinto and Buddhism.

[betsuni]

174. No, they're not.

Rare for Japanese people to be truly religious. Shrines and temples are places to go and pray for things you want, weddings are Shinto and funerals are Buddhist in general, and that's the end of it.

[masmdu]

192. Um, isn't praying, going to temples and shrines for funerals and weddings

religious?

[eppur_se_muova]

203. Wait, Japan doesn't have odd religious observances ?

News to me.

?



?

Maybe they don't have as many problems with CHRISTIANS, but there are other religions.

[Nasruddin]

81. Muise

Muise, a'bhfuil tu cinnte?

[FrankBooth]

35. Yes

Peaceful and humanistic spirituality is fine. But that's not what this world is full of. It's full of what are essentially apocalyptic cults, and apocalyptic cults become self-fulfilling prophecies.

[betsuni]

176. Religion is a tool. It's not the problem.

[FrankBooth]

238. Tool?

According to PBS just under 5 billion people in this world, roughly half of the world's population, are Christians, Muslims, or Hindus. Let me know when those groups stop forcing this 'tool' on the rest of us. What a great relief that will be.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

8. Damn straight!

[lindysalsagal]

10. Religion is the fuel for the gqp. It's politics.

True believers don't attempt to legislate belief.

[Sky Jewels]

27. Really?

Last edited Tue Oct 3, 2023, 12:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Seems like they always have.

[ancianita]

74. What I've learned by joining a bible group...

I only know about ten true believers here in my FL neighborhood, all women -- and what you say about not attempting to legislate belief is what they claim is true for them.

My true believer group deny that Jesus was ever political, and so they say they are not.
But as soon as they call the non-Jesus black biblical texts 'inspired by God,' I have to disagree and tell them that they are then giving over their Jesus spirituality to the political pharisaic side of other christians.

Also, when they vote, they tend to vote for those who would legislate belief. Much worse, there are no true believers in organized law firms trying by legal means to establish a christian theocracy in the U.S. government.

That said, I've been a declared atheist for 30 years. Had to leave a 'liberal' protestant church when the elders decided not to allow gay members to participate in liturgy planning.

If I told any of this to my bible group, they and the leader would probably recoil in fear that I'm "the Enemy."

Gotta have faith, though.

[Qutzupalotl]

11. It needs its religious folk to understand they can't dictate

morality or behavior for others, only themselves. Don't tell me your religion is better, show me by your behavior.

[Collimator]

29. The more a person specificically and forcefully declares their religious affiliations. . .

. . . The less that I trust them.

Jimmy Carter is someone whom I trust. He doesn't declare; he just does.

[ShazzieB]

184. +1

[leftyladyfrommo]

13. People need more education. nt

[ShazzieB]

191. Damn skippy!

[wryter2000]

14. It could also use

People informing these so called Christians that they have no idea what their savior was about.

I’m sure there were plenty of LGBTQIA+ people around at the time, but Jesus never said a word about them. He did encourage treating people who were scorned by society with kindness.

[wryter2000]

19. He also didn't say a thing about abortion

And I’m sure women were doing things to end pregnancies.

[ancianita]

109. One of my favorite memes...

[Sky Jewels]

16. Excellent piece.

Thank you, Kate Cohen. You absolutely speak for me.

[duckworth969]

17. here, here

While we’re at it, in the words of Frank Zappa, “tax the fucking churches!”

[Iggo]

22. At this point, religion in America is a fetish.

[hay rick]

23. Agnostic here.

Atheism is another faith- the equally unproveable assertion that there is no god.

[Sky Jewels]

26. Atheism is not a "faith."

There is zero evidence to support the existence of a god. So the default is to not assume one or more exist until evidence is produced. The same applies to unicorns, fairies and leprechauns, et al.

[Duppers]

45. TY for posting this.

[Sky Jewels]

62. ...

[ancianita]

90. True.

As a former atheist, I feel compelled to suggest that folks here read M. Scott Peck's The Road Less Travelled, particularly the last two sections

III. Growth and Religion
-- World Views and Religion
-- The Case of Kathy
-- The Case of Marcia
-- The Case of Theodore
-- The Baby and the Bath Water
-- Scientific Tunnel Vision

IV. Grace
-- The Miracle of Health
-- The Miracle of the Unconscious
-- The Miracle of Serendipity
-- The Definition of Grace
-- The Miracle of Evolution
-- The Alpha and the Omega
-- Entropy and Original Sin
-- The Problem of Evil
-- The Evolution of Consciousness
-- The Nature of Power
-- Grace and Mental Illness: The Myth of Orestes
-- Resistance to Grace
-- The Welcoming of Grace.

It might help people in the broad spectrum of world views to understand the common ground between religion and science, the dogmatic maps and the faith maps of believers, issues between believers in the Bible and believers in Jesus , etc.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

98. Maybe we just haven't seen the evidence,

or we have seen it but don’t understand it.

I can’t prove either tenet. And don’t want to.

[Sky Jewels]

102. Well, in the absence of evidence, the default is

to assume supernatural beings (Santa, elves, magical Jesus, Zeus, etc.) don't exist. If evidence eventually surfaces to prove something, then we can adjust our thinking.

[mwb970]

151. Not collecting stamps is not a "hobby".

[thesquanderer]

41. Refusing to believe the unprovable is not a faith. But also...

Last edited Tue Oct 3, 2023, 02:55 PM - Edit history (1)

...there is a difference between "I don't believe in God" and "I believe there is no God."

The second is, arguably, "another faith" -- it is an active belief, as you suggest. The first, a lack of belief, is not, itself, a belief.

Certainly people who profess the second sentiment are atheists... but I think people who only profess the first would typically also be called atheists, even though they believe "nothing" in this respect, as opposed to believing "something" (even if that "something" is a negative).

[hay rick]

73. Yes. The difference is between believing there is no god and not believing in god.

I view the existence/non-existence of god as unknowable.

[Silent3]

111. "I view the existence/non-existence of god as unknowable" is totally compatible with atheism

I you don't know something, don't even know if you can know it, then you clearly don't believe in it. While some atheists might adamantly insist on knowing there aren't any deities, such insistence is not required (or even as common as some people seem to think) to be an atheist.

As a practical matter I don't find the existence of any being corresponding to common notions of "God" to be much more believable than the existence of leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy. I can't absolutely, positively rule any of these things out, but that's a philosophical fine point, not a doubt of much substance.

[ancianita]

113. +1

[edhopper]

55. That's like saying

not collecting stamps is another hobby.

Atheism is the opposite of faith. It is not accepting something without some evidence or proof.

Why is there an assumption that there may or may not be Gods? The Gods are just more fairy tales humans have dreamed up.

[Happy Hoosier]

64. WHAT!?

No.

There are "hard" atheists who claim there is no god, but the VAST majority of atheists, myself included, simply aren't convinced there is a god.

If you aren't convinced a god exists you are an atheist, even if hold out the possibility that you could be convinced one exists.

I see no convincing evidence that a god exists at all, much less one based on a religion only a few thousand years old.

[Buckeyeblue]

108. It is not logical lly possible to prove a negative

My atheism is not faith. It's not even a dogma. I don't try to convert others to atheism. In fact, I get that religious faith brings a great deal of comfort to many people, no matter how fucked up it is.

But I'm not capable of believing in such things. I think it's because when I was 10 I used to watch Jim and Tammy Faye right before Sports Center would come on. I can remember at that age thinking that the idea of a god just didn't make sense.

[sarisataka]

25. Is it already a day that ends in 'y'?

How time flies

[MiHale]

28. Most people are only one god away...

from being atheist. There are hundreds probably thousands of gods that most people have already rejected.

[Sky Jewels]

121. There is only One True God!

I speak, of course, of Ceiling Cat.

I will admit, however, that my fondness for pasta gives me a soft spot for the FSM.

[MiHale]

122. Oh!... Pasta must be al dente no "soft spots" allowed...

I know that not what you meant I couldn’t help myself.

[ismnotwasm]

30. It doesn't need religion dictating anything

Religion needs to stay in their houses of worship and out of everywhere else.


I’m agnostic, not because I believe but because the universe is scary and incomprehensible. That said, there are a *lot* of religious folk who do quiet good works.

I have been fascinated lately with human kind proclivity to form cults, which is what a lot of religion actually is, like, why?

Finally, I never forget religion is a human creation. We did that. We own it. It doesn’t exist without us. We made it, we break it, we change it—constantly

[republianmushroom]

32. agree

[Initech]

34. Amen to that!

[Tripper11]

36. When I see these articles/threads, I like to trot this out

Stephen Fry lays it on the line and I love every second of his rant

[Sky Jewels]

65. Love him.

And ... "Bone cancer in children? How dare you?!" Exactly.

If there actually were a god, it would not be worthy of "worship," because it would be a fucking monster.

[Ligyron]

157. I remember on The Atheist Experience when Tracy said she was more moral than gawd.

Because if she knew of an instance where a child was being sexually abused, she'd damn sure do something about it unlike the gawd.

[AllyCat]

91. Spot on

[GreenEyedLefty]

252. Thank you for posting this, it is spot on

[cilla4progress]

37. I think MAGATs

are descendants of - perhaps remnants from - the Dark Ages! Truly - the same fear of science, refusal to accept reason, rationality.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)

Snip:

Enlightenment

During the Age of Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries, many critical thinkers saw religion as antithetical to reason. For them the Middle Ages, or "Age of Faith", was therefore the opposite of the Age of Reason.[32] Baruch Spinoza, Bernard Fontenelle, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Denis Diderot, Voltaire, Marquis De Sade and Jean-Jacques Rousseau were vocal in attacking the Middle Ages as a period of social regress dominated by religion, while Gibbon in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire expressed contempt for the "rubbish of the Dark Ages".[33] Yet just as Petrarch, seeing himself at the cusp of a "new age", was criticising the centuries before his own time, so too were Enlightenment writers.

SIDE NOTES:

1. Wikipedia is not necessarily scholarly..

2. Marquis de Sade?? 😳

[ShazamIam]

38. Hear! Hear! Aye!

[Maru Kitteh]

39. + 1000

[Tickle]

40. I will nicely disagree, NT

[Think. Again.]

42. I consider myself...

...an 'Apathetic Agnostic'.

I don't know, and I don't care.

[Think. Again.]

44. Add to the list...

...of problems religion causes. -overpopulation.

Remember what the bibble said:

"Be Like Fruitflies and Multiply' or something like that.

[Major Nikon]

46. Pretty much every societal evil you can imagine was either created or propagated through religion

Slavery is an excellent example, but there's many others. Then you have a host of lesser evils like the suppression of free thought and progress.

Certainly people should be free to believe in whatever imaginary friend they want, but the minute two of those like minded people start to organize, the inherent corruptibility of organized religion will be realized soon after.

[modrepub]

47. Which God?

I may be in the minority here but I still think those that are humble before God and know and actually practice Jesus' principles of forgiveness and acceptance are worth admiring and listening to. Jimmy Carter is a devout (born again?) Christian and he is someone to emulate in my opinion. There are others I've crossed in my path of life whose faith was especially strong and stood on principles (often based on their faith in God) that are way better people than I.

Bottom line, please don't dismiss all people of faith; just the ones who beat you over the head with it, demand your obedience or worse yet, ask for your $.

[ancianita]

97. +1

[ShazzieB]

186. +100!

[OMGWTF]

48. That stupid fking Buybull story about the talking snake and blaming a woman of all of life's ills

was the birthplace of misogyny. Religion ruins everything.

[hunter]

112. Yeah, everything went to hell when that woman aroused the snake.

Many religions demand women cover themselves up and hide themselves away for fear of arousing the snake.

If the snake is aroused anything can happen, and it's never the man's fault because he was created in the image of god.

Blame the woman and the snake.

[chouchou]

49. Religion scam

Religion has been a scam since some asshole thought "Hey, I can control people with this!
I don't actually have to work, just live in this large house for free!

Nowadays we're talking about WAY large houses, and they need money. Lot's of money.

[budkin]

50. Religion is vile

Not spirituality mind you, but organized religion.

[bringthePaine]

52. tax 'em good and proper, they'll skulk away...

[triron]

53. Atheism is just as dogmatic as organized religion or belief in a god.

God. Try Agnosticism. Many great thinkers are debating whether a separate physical reality exists and if it does, can we even know it.
It is a mystery that so much of what is observed and measured is amenable to mathematics. OTOH so much of our experience can't presently be understood by science and mathematics.

[Sky Jewels]

60. No it is not as dogmatic.

It is very simple. There is no evidence to show that god/s exist. So why believe in it? The same is true of beliefs in any supernatural/mythical beings, like unicorns and leprechauns. Do you insist that people should seriously leave open the possibility that fairies and fire-breathing dragons actually exist? If not, why should they do the same for magical invisible sky beings that were obviously made up in the human imagination?

[triron]

96. Some cosmologists and theoretical physicists would probably not agree

That there is 'no evidence' that a 'God' exists.

[ShazzieB]

187. +1

[Cuthbert Allgood]

241. Find one and show their evidence.

As an atheist, I don't have to be dogmatic to not believe in god. I'm the null hypothesis and there is no proof there is a god. Therefore I don't believe. It's that simple.

[Act_of_Reparation]

261. Citation needed.

[Happy Hoosier]

68. BS.

So, as an atheitst, what is my "dogma." I do not have one.

The ONLY thing that makes me an atheist is that I am not convinced that a god of any sort exists.

I am without theism... a-theism.

Are there questions that our CURRENT knowledge of science and math can't answer? Of course. For the vast majort of human history, people could not explain where lightening comes from. They made up stories of gods to explain it. And then we knew.

But there may be some questions that we can NEVER answer. That doesn't mean some sort of Godunnit is the answer. It's absolutely okay to not know some things.

[Sky Jewels]

71. Well said.

[Voltaire2]

182. Nope. It is just the lack of belief in any gods.

Are you a dogmatic aSantaClausiest?

[Elessar Zappa]

54. Human nature is what it is.

Some use religion as an excuse. The USSR was an oppressive atheistic state. Christian fundamentalism is hurting our country, no doubt about that. But another thing is that Black progressives are largely very religious and are a key base of our party. If Democrats run as anti-religion we’ll lose every election, guaranteed.

[ShazzieB]

189. Excellent points!

[Roc2020]

59. Well the two countries with the

highest population of Atheists are China and India. I guess for some people that's the promise land.

[Martin Eden]

61. Rightwing ideology uses religion as a cloak of morality

Which empowers them to act against nearly everything Jesus ostensibly stood for.

They serve the malefactors of great wealth who fund their political careers and don't really care whether or not poor people (especially POC) bring their pregnancies to term. By their actions they have demonstrated over and over again they won't lift a finger to help children and families who are alive and breathing.

Religion has always been a tool for rulers to control the masses. Some people of faith are smart and open minded enough to see through the con job, but far too many have fallen into the cult of Trumpism which not only gives Christianity a bad name but threatens to subvert the Constitution which the flag waving MAGA faithful claim to revere.

[newdayneeded]

63. I've been an atheist for 35+ years.

I really believe the sandy hook massacre should've been a turning point of anybody believing in God. The realization that this God was not even powerful enough to stop a 110 lb weakling from killing innocent kids! That was all the proof I needed to affirm what I have known for many years before that!

[Sky Jewels]

70. And not just Sandy Hook, how about ...

the Holocaust, world wars (or any war), African slavery, Native American genocide, Stalin's purges of millions, diseases and pandemics including Black Plague killing off a good chunk of the population, mass starvation in China and Ethiopia and many, many other famines, Rwanda massacres, natural disasters of all sorts, car accidents and drownings and home fires, etc., especially those killing children, the list of human suffering (let along animal suffering) goes on and on and on...And their cruel piece of crap deity either causes it all or sits on its hands and allows it (because of "free will," I guess ... so much for a Grand Divine Plan, huh?).

[LW1977]

66. Oh look, it's another "Lets drive liberal Christians away from DU" thread!

Yay, divisiveness! Who needs 70% of Christians who aren’t nutjobs! “Go away liberal Christians DUers, we don need you and “fairy tale” beliefs, here! You’re stupid, liberal Christians we don’t need you! We smug all-knowing athiests can do all of this by ourselves!” BTW, last I checked, Kim Jong-Un is an atheist, what a peaceful non-tyrannical leader he is! It pissed me off that threads like this are the first fucking thing I see when logging on to DU!

[Bayard]

86. I agree with you,

And I'm an atheist.

I'm afraid we have the reverse of religious missionaries here that say--You will be assimilated, whether you like it or not. Its more like--You will not be included because you are obviously inferior intellectually for believing in a Christian god.

I agree that organized religion has been the bane of human existence. But its usually because religion has been used as a weapon to subjugate. The Fear Of God is a real tool to maintain control.

We cannot afford to be this smug, and shove people out from other the Dem umbrella. This is the party of inclusion.

[Fix The Stupid]

107. then go vote for the other guys.

If a post on a message board sways you in any way, well, that's depressing as hell.

Can you imagine???

Basing your political affiliation/support based on what a complete stranger on a little website posts?...mind-boggling in it's stupidity.

Is this one of the reasons trump got elected in 2016?

Because the 'mean' atheists finally spoke up?

[phylny]

118. For me, it's disrespect that probably wouldn't be thrown

at other groups or religions.

[ShazzieB]

190. Hear, hear!

Threads like this are depressing.

I don't know what I am, except that I'm not an atheist. And anyone who tells me I can't be a Democrat without being an atheist can go to hell (figuratively speaking, because I don't believe in a literal hell).

[LW1977]

158. Nope, the Rethuglican "Christians" CINOs (Christian In Name OnlyJ

I’m not asking you to join hands with Jesus, believe or don’t believe whatever you want, don’t put down others who do have beliefs as childish or stupid. I believe the earth is round and well over a billion years old, in gay rights, trans rights, women’s rights and the Grand Old Pricks is a party of tyranny. Kim Jong-Un is an atheist and he’s seeking nukes, he has no religion, and yet this what he’s doing. To say that religion is responsible for all the violence in the world is not true.

[ShazzieB]

194. Way to completely miss the point.

I don't currently belong to any organized religion at the present time, but I'm also not an atheist. I don't have anything against atheism, and I understand the arguments in favor of it. I'm not an atheist because I can't be. If I was capable of being an atheist, I'd be one by now, believe me.

I don't hate religion or atheism. What I hate is intolerance, no matter who is propagating it. Religion is not the root of all the world's ills; intolerance is. Is religion frequently used as an excuse for intolerance? Absolutely, but take religion out of the equation, and people will invent other excuses. You can bank on that.

[thesquanderer]

114. I suppose you could always turn the other cheek. ;-)

More seriously, I can see where one could say it might have been better to have posted this over in the Atheists & Agnostics group.

[phylny]

117. Yes to this a thousand times.

I'm so freaking tired of it.

[hunter]

119. I'm some kind of Social Justice Warrior Catholic heretic. I don't feel driven away from this place.

My personal grudge is against anti-intellectualism. That comes in both religious and ideological packaging.

I've met too many atheists who have rejected the gods of their anti-intellectual childhood religions but kept all the filthy baggage that came with those religions.

Likewise I've met people who have turned to religion because they are intellectually lazy and crave some outside authority to make difficult decisions for them or forgive them their trespasses.

As a human being you can't pretend to exist outside of the social communities that are part of you. We humans are social creatures, it's in our genes.

The first President I actively campaigned for and voted for was Jimmy Carter. He is a very religious person who took the very best of his religious upbringing and left the ugly baggage behind. Joe Biden is another President I'm proud to support.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

242. Must be rough being a Christian and face all the persecution in the US.

How about the Christians keep voting Dem, then. It's what's right.

And, you want to play that game? Fine, Hitler was a Christian. Score's 1-1.

[dawg]

72. What we really need is fewer assholes.

Regardless of what they may or may not believe about the afterlife.

[PatrickforB]

78. Though I am devout, I was raised to have respect for the beliefs of all others.

It is literally none of my business what anyone else believes or does not believe concerning a deity.

The problem, though is that phenomenon we call 'culture wars.'

These are generally wedge issues introduced by well-funded Libertarian think-tanks to make sure we are fighting each other so we don't notice our pockets are steadily being picked by billionaires.

You know what god this country actually worships? It is not Christ, Allah, Brahman, or whatever we name that creative force.

Nope.

It is the bronze bull-idol of Wall Street! We worship corporations, and hold shareholder profits above all else.

A bit of background on that bull:

According to Element Federal Credit Union, "For two years, SoHo artist Arturo Di Modica had been working on his bronze and stainless steel sculpture out of his studio. The artwork was created in response to the 1987 stock market crash. According to Di Modica’s assistant at the time, it was a way for him “to encourage everybody to realize America’s power.”

One cold Thursday night, Di Modica and some friends rented a crane, loaded the massive sculpture onto a flatbed truck, drove it to the Financial District and installed it on the center line of Broad Street, near a festive 60-foot Christmas tree. The following morning, Di Modica handed out fliers explaining the significance of his artwork-turned-Christmas-gift to passersby. Hundreds came out to admire the work, but the police were less than amused—Charging Bull had been installed without a permit and without concern for the effect the statue would have on traffic and public safety. The bull was immediately impounded and hauled off to Queens. The resulting public outcry was so great that the New York City Department of Parks & Recreation reinstalled the statue a few days later in Bowling Green Park in the Financial District, where it remains on display to this day. New York City does not own the sculpture and so Charging Bull has technically been on temporary display since 1989.

The cultural impact of the sculpture has spread far and wide. Replicas of Di Monica’s sculpture have found homes in Amsterdam and Shanghai. Charging Bull has helped set the scene in many TV shows and movies (Mr. Robot and The Wolf of Wall Street are a couple of notable examples). It was guarded by police during the Occupy Wall Street movement and remained barricaded for three years following the protests. Most recently, it inspired an additional artistic installation—in honor of International Women’s Day 2017, a bronze statue of a defiant little girl was temporarily installed facing the iconic bull (and yes, the statue of the defiant little girl did have a permit from the city...)"

So there you have it - our God! The great Wall Street Charging Bull! All hail the true god of America. Doesn't it make you want to be like Trumpy and hug the flag?

[hunter]

159. I don't automatically "have respect for the beliefs of all others."

Too many people worship cruel and capricious gods.

These people and these religions are a direct danger to me, my family, and my friends.

Most of my PTSD is attributable to the fucked up religions of others.

Many common religious beliefs and ideologies are despicable.

The religious warfare of my own childhood was quite benign compared to that I later encountered when I was out living on my own.

I'm not saying that religion can't be a positive force in the world. But when it goes rotten, it can go really really rotten.

I've seen too much of the rotten.

[PatrickforB]

163. I hear you. The fact that religious zealots make it miserable for everyone around

them doesn't help.

We are our brothers' and sister's keeper, but we don't live like that. I'm reading this great book - amazing really. It is by Rhyd Wildermuth and is called 'Here Be Monsters: How to fight capitalism instead of each other.'

It is right up there with Zinn's People's History of the United States, which makes it pretty brilliant. The guy that wrote it is a gay radical anarchist/Marxist but I'm about halfway through it and understand much more about the wedges that get driven between us.

Today was a challenge. I'm a caregiver, work over full time in a job where I'm exempt - haven't had a full weekend off in a couple months besides this last one we just had. I got really frustrated because a crown that the dentist glued back in fell out yet again, and I'm red-hot furious at our fucked up shitty healthcare system in this capitalist utopia. I should be doing better than I ever have but I can't even afford to fix my fucking teeth and I'm already up to my eyebrows in healthcare debt.

I kind of lost it, you know.

See this is the problem, Hunter. We are purposely separated from each other by the billionaires whose well-funded think-tanks perpetuate these culture wars. Why? Because it gets us all pissed off at each other when what we should doing is forming massive unions and going on general strike.

This brutal shareholders-first society we live in is unsustainable.

We have put so much carbon in the atmosphere, and so much plastic in the oceans that the world is literally dying - Wall Street, The Bourse, London, Shenzhen and all the rest of the greed-heads have been amassing more and more and more and more. Always just a little bit more. No more 'death tax.' Low capital gains. Tax cuts for the wealthy.

Their greed has created this brutal world where we no longer stand together, no longer trust one another. Today, I experienced a temporary loss of hope, because you know what? If you work hard you should be able to get ahead, own a home, have a decent car, be able to get your teeth fixed, not have to defer maintenance on a house that is too big but you're trapped in because there is nothing out there to downsize into.

Our kids have it worse. My son called me up and had me take him to PF Chang's where the little shit promptly ordered the most expensive thing on the menu and then proceeded to tell me how frustrated he is because he and his fiance cannot seem to get ahead. Sigh. Student debt, healthcare debt, predatory lending, all that designed to make a few worthless shitbags rich while the rest of us suffer.

And we are lucky. Eleven people a minute starve to death on this planet. Eleven. How can we let this happen?

Anyway, just my opinion, but this is not the creative force's fault because we ourselves have free will. We are free to be greed-head dirtbags or decent people. This whole shit show is squarely on sapiens for not learning to control ourselves, refusing to grow up as a species and begin organizing ourselves around human need instead of human greed.

I hear you about religion. Funny story - my grandpa was a serious Church of Christer, and around 1926 or 27 maybe, when Mom was a little girl, she tried to put a button in a gum machine and got caught. Grandpa stood and pointed down at her, told her it was a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God! Mom left the church, as I have, but remained devout.

She was a real hero, my Mom. Dad had lots of financial troubles and Mom had to go to work to help put bread on the table. This was in the mid-sixties when I was a little kid. She went to a job service place and the guy told her he couldn't refer her to any job even though she had managed the mail room at a large company during WWII (she was a Rosie the Riveter - like many women she went to work when Dad went to fight). But that wasn't 'recent' so the guy told her the only jobs she was qualified for was to be a charwoman (housekeeper).

She didn't hear that, and instead went to work selling cosmetics. My daughter has them now, but Mom amassed a whole shelf load of regional sales awards, and she told me once it wasn't about selling product, but about bringing light to people who might be lonely or suffering and her visit the bright spot in their day. That's how she was. I learned compassion and common decency at her knee, and also to be tough when I need to be.

Big long ramble. Sorry. Felt better to type this out. It did. Best wishes to you!

[ShazzieB]

199. Yes.

Anyway, just my opinion, but this is not the creative force's fault because we ourselves have free will. We are free to be greed-head dirtbags or decent people. This whole shit show is squarely on sapiens for not learning to control ourselves, refusing to grow up as a species and begin organizing ourselves around human need instead of human greed.

I agree, but I would add something: We are free to be greed-head dirtbags, intolerant jackholes, or decent people. Furthermore, religion is not THE reason some people are greed-head dirtbags or intolerant jackholes. It's a common excuse, but dirtbags are gonna dirtbag, and jackholes are gonna jackhole regardless. They will always find an excuse. If it's not religion, it'll be something else. That's my view.

The book you mentioned sounds fascinating. I'm going to go Google it as soon as I post this.

[Bettie]

80. Probably true

because from what I've seen most religious people are incapable of separating the rules/laws of their religion from the rules/laws of the nation.

They seem to think that since there is some overlap, like "don't kill other people" that everything in their religion should be the law for everyone.

Dh and my kids are atheists.

I still claim to be an agnostic, as I can not know for sure that there is or isn't a being out there somewhere.

Sometimes, I wish I could believe that there was a benevolent force that would help humans. So far, it hasn't, nor have the supposed "men of god" who have caused harm in my life and so many others. I know so many people who have been harmed by religion.

Plus, if I'm an agnostic, I can still think there might just be unicorns out there, since there is the same amount of evidence for them as there is for a god.

Done rambling. Strained my back, so I'm not super mobile today (it's loosening up, but sitting here is non-painful).

[Nasruddin]

82. Can I get an amen?

n/a

[VGNonly]

83. One Tin Soldier

[link:

|

[Martin68]

84. There's nothing magic about atheists. Stalin deliberately killed 6 million countrymen, and it

estimated 9 million died because of his development policies. How many died in Mao's cultural revolution, which had the elimination of religion as one of its goals? Let's focus on improving democratic government instead of blaming it all on religion. BTW, I'm an atheist.

[FakeNoose]

88. Well, God was never the problem

The problem has always been humans pushing their own politics in the name of God, or in the name of Jesus.

[JanLip]

143. This 👆

Enough said.

Jan

[Sky Jewels]

166. God is not the problem because it doesn't actually exist.

Luckily, because if it did it would have to be regarded as a cruel, murderous, sociopathic monster instead of a silly figment of human imagination.

It’s a relief that humans have produced zero evidence in support of its existence over the last several thousand years.

Same goes for the sky wizard’s “son.”

It’s all a pantload.

[A HERETIC I AM]

89. A quote attributed to the Roman Stoic and Philosopher Seneca the Younger;

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, the wise as false and the rulers as useful”

[wolfie001]

103. 2000 years later and still apropos!

[dchill]

92. Religion is about death.

I don't really need either one, but one is unavoidable.

[Sympthsical]

99. Author just kind of forgets the entire 20th Century happened

What was the body count there from certain atheist types? Couple tens of millions?

It's not atheism vs. religion. It's good people vs. bad people.

Ideology when taken fanatically, whether it's religiously based or not, is usually when things tend to go south. People who cannot brook opposition or disagreement with their carefully cultivated and protected - and narrow - political and ideological worldviews tend to, get this, do a lot of damage.

I'm an irreligious agnostic, so I have no dog/god in this fight. However, the debate-on-the-quad college freshman level of this sort of thing that is always cropping up is zzzzzz.

Just don't be a shitty person no matter what you do or do not believe. There. Solved.

[Happy Hoosier]

105. I don't disagree in principle....

If people are just decent to each other, religion doesn;t really matter.

The problem is FAR too many assert their religion as absolute. And since they claim it is absolute, they see themselves as having a religious duty to proselytize, and if necessary, to impose it.

And to be honest, they have plenty of Biblical justification for it.

[Sympthsical]

116. If religion disappeared tomorrow

Humans would invent other ways to justify their shittiness.

This is a human thing. It isn't the religion causing something. It's the humans causing the religion to send out directives to be shitty. How many times in how many different ways have we heard people - maybe even ourselves - say, "Jesus would not do this shitty thing." Fine, but the humans are managing it on his behalf.

If you look at our society and culture, you do not have to go very far to see non-religious ideologies, attitudes, and modes of thinking that could go real south real fast if allowed. Every day I'm on the Internet, I see some belief system or ideology and think, "Oh, this person is just nuts. Totally bugfuck crazy fanatical about this."

Authoritarians never need God. It's just that God often helps.

[Happy Hoosier]

120. Sure.

But they wouldn't have an invisible magical sky creature that is the absolute authority on all things.

You can't argue against a make-believe absolute authority.

[Sympthsical]

170. You can't argue against any absolute authority

If someone was dumb enough to argue with or about Stalin, well, it didn't go so well for them.

That's why it's just a generally good rule that the moment someone starts trying to assert authority over the contents of your mind and your speech, move away from them and start asking questions.

Because if they - whoever they are - succeed, there will be no more asking questions.

[Happy Hoosier]

185. Not the same thing.

... and I think you know it.

There is a different between some claiming an objective, absolute metaphysical authority, and a strong man.

[Sky Jewels]

167. Tell that to the Opus Dei freaks

on the Supreme Ct. who turned half the population into third-class citizens.

[Sympthsical]

169. If they're ever over at my house

I will certainly advise them of my "don't be a shitty person" belief system.

[Sky Jewels]

171. Yeah, I'm sure that will restore the right to bodily autonomy

that religion destroyed.

[czarjak]

173. Someone's religious beliefs trump everyone else's civil rights.

What could that possibly lead to? God only knows. Unbelievable!

[Sky Jewels]

210. It's beyond infuriating.

I don't even have a word for it.

[wolfie001]

100. I couldn't hit the recommend button fast enough!!!

So glad I don't deal with that horseshit. Complete waste of time and energy.

[intrepidity]

110. Instead of "don't say gay", normalize "don't say God".

The take home from the article is: speak up. It's long past time for atheists to come out of the closet. It gives all the rest of the unacknowledged atheists the permission to examine their true beliefs.

Second lesson is: since there's no "God" to rely on, it is *all* up to us to fix the world. So let's get busy.

[SergeStorms]

124. AMEN!

I couldn't resist.

[NHvet]

127. Best statement ever

[Deep State Witch]

128. "Religion" Does NOT Equal Christianity!

I like the article, but they insist on conflating Christianity with "religion".

[Sky Jewels]

168. Tomato, tomahto

Potato, pohtato … it’s all bullshit and nonsensical mythology.

[Act_of_Reparation]

204. Christianity is not unique.

Any religion, given the political capital, will display the same dangerous tendencies.

[twodogsbarking]

137. Don't be an asshole. Please.

[Faux pas]

138. Kickin' & Rec'n

[RSherman]

139. Funny you posted this....

I just heard an author interview for the book "We of Little Faith" pretty much making this argument. I just ordered it.

https://www.amazon.com/We-Little-Faith-Stopped-Pretending-ebook/dp/B0BV7MG25G

[garybeck]

140. Disagree here.

Both the reformed and conservative temples (Judaism) in my city are extremely open and welcoming to everyone.

Not to mention, the word religion includes like new age spiritually and Unitarian universalism, which are very welcoming and accepting of all beings.

The problems with religion and things like LGBTQ is not inherent in the religion itself. It's with the people and institutions that have taken over some sects or branches of the religion.

In my opinion we need more people who believe in the central idea of new age spirituality, and things like quantum physics, which is that we are all connected, not atheism.

That's my 2cents

[milestogo]

141. Atheists are not morally superior to anyone else.

We do not need "more" atheists.

[Sky Jewels]

161. Au contraire. Our world would be MUCH better off

if atheists were the majority instead of people who embrace irrational beliefs in mythologies and nonsensical supernatural stories and if science, reason and secularism were the norm instead of primitive fairytales.
“Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.” - Mark Twain

[milestogo]

196. ANYONE can have irrational beliefs

and ANYONE can have depraved values, including atheists.

[Eko]

142. I liked this part.

"So ask yourself: Do I think a supernatural being is in charge of the universe?

If you answer “no,” you’re an atheist. That’s it — you’re done."

[AntivaxHunters]

144. I'm a Christian Socialist

Our movement is slowly gaining ground. There was once a time in America that we had quite the following but that changed when the "red scare" happened.

The "Christian left" as some call it is based more in the gospels of Christ & his social justice work. It's a direct counter to far right evangelicals. It's accepting of all people from all genders & all LGBTQIA people. We see the problem being more with church's who have distorted Christ's message in order to fit their hateful ideology than say religion itself.

A good example is the distance between say MLK & Billy Graham, Jr.

[mwb970]

148. Religious people simply baffle me.

Last edited Wed Oct 4, 2023, 05:27 AM - Edit history (1)

They believe crazy, impossible things for which there is no evidence whatever and consider this a virtue. They worship the most vile, immoral, un-Christian person in America. They hate everything good and love everything cruel and evil. All in the name of "Jesus", their supposed Lord and Savior. It is all so totally irrational! It's maddening.

[Skittles]

152. agreed

Whenever I hear someone describe themselves as "god-fearing" I think, NUTCASE

[Sky Jewels]

162. Agree.

I’ll never understand how so many people allow themselves to be brainwashed into believing such nonsensical bullshit.

[Skittles]

150. very tired of religious delusions, er, beliefs

sick of them

KEEP IT TO YOURSELF, KEEP IT OUT OF GOVERNMENT

[Wounded Bear]

156. Not sure about atheists, but America definitely needs more rational thinking in high places. nt

[PJMcK]

160. There ain't no god

We’re on our own.

[usonian]

172. Having read (skimmed) all of this.

Your religion is what you do, not just what you say.

Languages vary. Interpretations vary.

Actions are self-evident [1]

[1] Except in church, court, and in politics, which were invented by beings from outer space, to keep us fighting among ourselves and not posing a danger to the galaxy and beyond.

[Jedi Guy]

178. Oh boy, another thread shitting all over religion and belief in God.

If you want to shit all over the fundies, the foaming at the mouth types who rabidly insist that their beliefs should and must be everyone's beliefs and that their worldview must be enshrined in law, go nuts. That's fine, because that's a behavior, and a shitty behavior at that.

Shitting all over religion and all believers in religion is... wait for it... also shitty behavior. There are plenty of religious Democrats (Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and Jimmy Carter, just to name a few), none of whom are childish, stupid, or deluded. The difference between them and the foaming at the mouth fundies is not belief, it is behavior.

Bottom line, don't engage in shitty behavior regardless of what faith (or lack thereof) you embrace. That's how the world is made better and what it needs.

[betsuni]

180. +1

[Happy Hoosier]

188. There are good people who are religious. That's doesn't make religion good.

Religion posits a metaphysical absolute authority based on.... NOTHING.

It's a cultuirally constructed "final vocabulary."

Some intelligent, compassionate people are able to separate their rational mind form their cultural religious beliefs. But that doesn't justify their belief in a fundamentally irrational belief system. Many people are not to make that separation, and I'd argue their religion doesn't actually support.

The Bible, in particular, is full of absolutely horrific stuff. And since we can establish its archoelogical and historic origins, belief in it as an actual model of universe is irrational.

[Jedi Guy]

193. None of that addresses the point I made.

If someone holds a religious belief and doesn't engage in shitty behavior, I really couldn't care less how rational or irrational that religious belief may be because they're not engaging in shitty behavior that impacts me or anyone else.

So the people who believe abortion is a mortal sin and stand outside abortion clinics to scream at and harass women going for an abortion, for instance, are engaging in shitty behavior because of their religion. On the other hand, the people who believe that abortion is sinful but that women should be allowed to make their own choices are not engaging in shitty behavior despite their religion.

Some people hold religious beliefs and engage in shitty behavior, some don't. Some people are hardcore atheists and engage in shitty behavior, some don't. The issue is not belief, the issue is shitty behavior.

As I said, people shouldn't engage in shitty behavior. The world is immediately improved as a result.

[Happy Hoosier]

200. Sure... and there are law-abiding gun owners.

My point is that there are a LOT of downsides to religion, and there is no good reason to believe in it. The fact that some religious believers don;t act shitty doesn't make religion not shitty, IMO. And I'm not really all that interested in the usual "Not all... " knee-jerk defensive reactions. Of course "Not all."

IMHO, that supports the idea that fewer religion believers means less leverage for for believers to impose their bullshit religion on everyone else.

To me, that seems freakin' OBVIOUS. Having said that, I understand that religious belief is a deeply emotional issue. I struggled with the loss of my faith and maintained that I was "Christian" for several years after I knew in my heart that I didn't believe.

[Jedi Guy]

256. Religion has a lot of downsides, sure. A cursory glance at history proves that.

It also has a lot of upsides, too. On the grand scale, great works of art and literature. On the medium scale, charitable societies that have helped the poor, sick, etc. On the personal scale, comfort to the grieving, peace and aid to people struggling with substance abuse, hope of something better for the dying or terminally ill.

Just like everything in life, it has its positives and its negatives. I think it's a wash at the very worst, personally. Reasonable people can disagree.

Atheism also has its positives and its negatives. A cursory glance at history proves that, too. It's almost as if the shitty behavior of people is at the root of the problem...

[Kid Berwyn]

195. Respect for one another is what's needed.

That’s why the Constitution — and what’s so troubling with those insisting on making others bend to their thinking.

[Jedi Guy]

257. I agree entirely.

I don't much care what people do or believe unless and until it starts impacting me or other people. The live-and-let-live attitude has largely gone away, it seems.

[hunter]

225. If we automatically respect all religion...

... it only encourages the shitty behavior of those who follow shitty religions that promote shitty behavior.

If your preacher-man was telling you to vote for Trump then you belong to a shitty religion. I your preacher man is telling you to torture your gay or transgender kids, or throw them out of your house, then you belong to a shitty religion. If your religion celebrates you for turning your wives and daughters into baby factories, it's a shitty religion.

I'm not saying shitty religions or people who behave in shitty ways can't be reformed, but some of them are damned stubborn, and it might not be a bad thing if these faiths that promote shitty behaviors die.

I do not support the Pollyannaish idea of religious freedom or "tolerance" as it is practiced in the U.S.A.. (Tolerance is never a good quality.)

Sometimes, in my darker moments, I think churches should be taxed and regulated the same as other entertainment venues that tend to become public nuisances, such as porn shops, strip clubs, and football stadiums.

[Jedi Guy]

258. No one is saying you have to automatically respect all religion.

I do think, however, that automatically not disrespecting religion is a decent stance to take. There's a gray line of indifference between respect and disrespect. Being ambivalent towards something until it earns your respect or provokes your disrespect seems reasonable to me, as does separating the religion's teachings from how its followers behave. It can teach A, and people, being shitty from time to time, might do B instead.

If your preacher-man was telling you to vote for Trump then you belong to a shitty religion. I your preacher man is telling you to torture your gay or transgender kids, or throw them out of your house, then you belong to a shitty religion. If your religion celebrates you for turning your wives and daughters into baby factories, it's a shitty religion.

I can't speak to what other preachers do, but the preacher at my home church in Arizona doesn't delve into politics or advocate voting for this candidate over that. He also doesn't advocate torturing or disowning anyone, nor does he celebrate turning women into baby factories. The Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) is fairly conservative across the board, but it doesn't take extreme positions of that sort, or at least my home congregation doesn't. I don't think of it as shitty religion or shitty people, though I'm sure they have their moments.

I do not support the Pollyannaish idea of religious freedom or "tolerance" as it is practiced in the U.S.A.. (Tolerance is never a good quality.)

If you don't mind my saying so, it's peculiar to see someone with a pride flag as their avatar saying tolerance isn't a good quality. Religious freedom and freedom of speech are, in many ways, inextricably intertwined, so I hope you'll forgive me if I respectfully but vehemently disagree with your stance on this.

[MayReasonRule]

179. "Beliefs" & Genitals Have These Things In Common...

It’s okay to have them, it’s okay to hold them closely.

It is not okay to shove them down everyone else’s throats!

Mythology reveals and informs.
Religion obscures and deludes

Here’s to the elimination of delusion and the restoration of reason as the rule of law!

[sindri]

181. God is just a human created

way to externalize responsibility for human behavior - people often use religion to explain their existence and justify their actions

[RocRizzo55]

183. One of these days

They will all understand that god is nothing more than dog spelled backwards. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ferrets are Cool]

197. Amen

[Brainstormy]

201. and they all said, AMEN! n/t

[Wonder Why]

202. Somehow,, some atheists think they are smarter and more perfect and right than the rest of us.

Just like the right wing nuts.

Sorry, I don't think those atheists are any different than the rest of us. It's just that they are yelling louder than they used to - just like the right wing nuts.

Anyone who patently rejects others that don't fully believe all the things they believe, all belong together, whether nutcase right or nutcase left.

And who is an atheist? One who says "There are no gods" or one who says there is and quotes the bible out of context to justify anything he/she does but who never follows anything his/her religion teaches about being good? Those CINOs may claim to be Christian but they obviously don't believe in Christ's teachings so aren't they really closet atheists too?

As I said: "SOME atheists".

[Fix The Stupid]

207. Simple question that get's right to the point:

Please answer honestly...

What is your opinion of a grown adult who believes in Santa Clause?


I expect much gnashing of teeth and rage, much deflection etc, etc, but it would be refreshing if a believer would answer this question honestly...

Hey..I'll go first.

I would have ZERO respect for any adult who believes that a magical old man named Santa Clause races all over the world dishing out presents to deserving believers. In fact, I would consider that person mentally challenged, in the clinical sense. I would not trust that person near me or my loved ones, would not trust that person with $$$, or trust that person to handle other peoples $$$. I would not want that person driving a vehicle on the same roads as me, etc. If you're dumb enough to believe in the Santa Clause fairy tale, you cannot be trusted around heavy machinery and the like.

Now substitute your god for santa and read it again.

[Wonder Why]

211. Are you talking about Santa Claus or the Sanity Clause?

Sorry about that. Couldn't help myself. I remember an old Marx Brothers movie comment.

As to your question, what about this one?

If that person believed and followed everything you believe and follow (i.e. was a clone except for Santa Claus), would you still have ZERO respect for them?

You have ZERO respect for President Biden? Abraham Lincoln?

As I said, SOME atheists think they are smarter and more perfect and right than the rest of us.

Oh, and I have no formal religion.

[Fix The Stupid]

215. Strike one...as I figured.

Can you try and and answer the question?

I know...it's a toughie.

[Wonder Why]

243. I can't answer as I am not a believer. But let's consider about your Santa Claus person

I don't look at one part of a person's beliefs or non-beliefs. I would be concerned about that person without knowing them but if I found that their overall thoughts were "normal" (and I don't believe that others that think differently from me are not "normal&quot , I would consider that they don't believe what I do but that doesn't mean they are not trustworthy, fair, friendly, honest, crazy, or a lunatic. So when I meet someone calling themselves Christian, I am concerned they could be a right wing CINO, a person who believes in treating everyone with respect as I do, or somewhere in between. Correspondingly, if an atheist I meet proclaims that anyone who believes in any kind of religion cannot be respected no matter how good that person is, I consider that they are just like the CINO who does not respect others. If that Santa Claus lover were to say he could not respect me because I don't believe in Santa then I would not have respect for him but if he respected my disbelief, that would not be a consideration in my thoughts about him other that we have agreed to disagree.

So will you now answer my question? Do you not respect any of those I mentioned?

Bigotry exists in all of us. Remember that.

We don't need more atheists. We need more people who truly respect those that disagree with them.

[Kaleva]

221. Forward your post to Biden and Carter

Do you not trust them and voted for them?

Your comment:

I"f you're dumb enough to believe in the Santa Clause fairy tale, you cannot be trusted around heavy machinery and the like.

Now substitute your god for santa and read it again."

My guess is that you'll gladly vote for deeply religious Biden over any atheist Republican.

[Fix The Stupid]

223. Strike Two...

I need a flamethrower to burn down that strawman.

Let's see if ANYONE can answer the question.

[Kaleva]

227. What do think of Biden s and Carter's faith?

Do you trust Biden to lead this nation?

Nancy Pelosi:

“I stand before you as Speaker of the House, as a wife, a mother, a grandmother, a devout Catholic, a proud Democrat and a patriotic American, a citizen of the greatest republic in the history of the world,” Ms. Pelosi saId."

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2022/11/17/nancy-pelosi-step-down-speaker-244178

[Fix The Stupid]

229. Strike 3...lol.

How many innings can we go???

I answered your strawman questions somewhere on this thread. Pretty obvious what I think.

Can you answer my question? 3rd attempt?

[Kaleva]

244. Just post your answer. Do you trust deeply religious Biden?

I do and I wouldn't hesitate to say so if asked.

[sarisataka]

246. They won't be back to this conversation

Someone alerted on their post which responded to quotes by Obama, Clinton, Carter by saying (paraphrase) they should be disrespected and mocked for expressing such ridiculous beliefs. The post was hidden.

So, no they do not trust Biden or other Democrats who are believers. They also appear to believe not all votes should be equal.

[Kaleva]

255. I didn't think he supported Biden because of his refusal to say he did

To say he supported and trusted Biden, a man with a strong faith, would screw up the point he was trying to make

[sarisataka]

226. My opinion of a grown adult who believes in Santa Clause (sic)

Is one of joy and hope. Joy that someone can maintain the innocence of childhood and believe so strongly in the good of humanity that they can cling to the notion such goodness could take take an altruistic spiritual form.

Hope- that they are not the only person in the world who has succumbed to the typical cynicism, pettiness and selfishness most adults of the world have. Those who can maintain their beliefs in the face of such opposition are Santa Claus.

While my God could do such parlor tricks, he simply creates everything in the universe.

Your turn to answer the questions about our faithful Democratic leaders.

[Fix The Stupid]

231. Christ..don't even know where to begin with this...

"joy that someone can maintain the innocence of childhood..."

Well, we're getting closer .

Almost admitting that these beliefs are childish in nature?...we're 'almost' there..getting closer.

Yes, I admit it would be nice for believers to grow-up and leave their childish beliefs in the past.

All I feel after reading this is I can't believe my vote carries the same weight as this person's vote.

Carry on.

[sarisataka]

236. Now THAT is an interesting view

That what a person believes or doesn't believe affects the weight of their vote.

I assume, being this is a Democratic site, you would not exclude persons of faith from voting. Maybe you would.

But if we count an atheist vote as 1, can we compromise on people of faith votes counting as .6?

[Mariana]

250. And some Christians openly and proudly discriminate against atheists.

So what?

[Wonder Why]

251. My point exactly. So, like me, you don't agree with the O.P.'s contention. However, among DUers, I

haven't read that any Christian has posted on this site that we need more Christians and fewer atheists.

Core Principles!

[Towlie]

209. The world's religions can be considered equally valid only if they're considered equally worthless.

 
?

Any religious person who claims to support the Establishment Clause, i.e. the very first provision of the First Amendment of our Bill or Rights, cannot coherently claim to believe in his own religion. The only people who can honestly make this claim are atheists and agnostics.

[Wonder Why]

213. And does that mean you feel superior to everyone?

[Fix The Stupid]

216. I'll bite...

Absolutely...I feel FAR superior than anyone who believes in sky gods and religious dogma.

FAR SUPERIOR. In every way.

Did you have a point?

[sarisataka]

220. FAR SUPERIOR

In every way to-

Barack Obama

" (O)ur faith changes us. I know it’s changed me. It renews in us a sense of possibility. It allows us to believe that although we are all sinners, and that at times we will falter, there’s always the possibility of redemption. Every once in a while, we might get something right, we might do some good.”

 “I was reminded that while our time on Earth is fleeting, he is eternal. His life, his lessons live on in our hearts and, most importantly, in our actions. When we tend to the sick, when we console those in pain, when we sacrifice for those in need, wherever and whenever we are there to give comfort and to guide and to love, then Christ is with us.”

Hillary Clinton

“If you were a person of faith, that should be evident in how you treated other people and what kind of life you lived. So, I didn’t go around talking about it a lot, but it certainly was foremost in my mind. I’ve tried to express it, sometimes more effectively than other times, over the course of the last twenty or thirty years. But I’ve tried to be guided by it, even more importantly,”

Jimmy Carter

"I believe now, more than then, that Christians are called to plunge into the life of the world, and to inject the moral and ethical values of our faith into the processes of governing.”

Joe Biden
since he mentions God or his faith in every major speech I don't feel the need to provide evidence of his belief in "sky gods and religious dogma"

I guess it is good to have a positive self opinion...

[sarisataka]

228. Good to know you think so little of our leadership

BTW, I made no argument. I asked a question to clarify your position, so your personal attacks are misplaced.

Is it safe to assume you would vote atheist over party?

[Fix The Stupid]

230. If one EVER had or WILL have that choice, then YES, a resounding YES!!!

Would rather have someone who is honest and doesn't need to pander to the sheep with obvious fallacies.

[sarisataka]

232. Very well

Luckily for you a certain candidate who clearly believes in nothing greater than himself has a Marxist view of religion.

[Fix The Stupid]

235. Oh. THIS Candidate??? Read the quotes first, then read who said it...lol.

“Throughout our Nation’s history, Americans have consistently turned to God for guidance at pivotal moments.”

“Our Nation’s honored tradition of prayer has sustained us and strengthened our trust that God will continue to watch over and accompany us through the best of times and the darkest hours.”

“We ... acknowledge our dependence on God’s love to guide our families, communities, and our country away from harm and toward abundance and peace.”

“May we as Americans never forget the power of prayer and the greatness of our Creator.”

'We Raise Our Sights to the Glory of God'

'Made Equal by the Hand of Almighty God'

All said by PRESIDENT Donald Trump.

I don't think you're making the point you think you're making...comedy effing gold.

And nice try - I am the farthest thing from a republican or trump supporter.

[sarisataka]

237. There is this old book

Has a few good ideas. One applicable is

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Or in modern terms- talk is cheap, actions are stronger than words

As I said, he is Marxian. He will pay lip service but it is a means to an end. Nothing more. So don't fear, you will never face that choice.

[Fix The Stupid]

239. Wow...fish in a barrel...too easy..

'quickly googles "craziest bible verses"...

1) Deuteronomy 23:1 ESV

No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

2) Genesis 38:8-10 NASB

Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.”

3) Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB

If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

4) Ezekiel 23:19-20 NET

Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

5) Exodus 4:24-25 NASB

Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the LORD met him and sought to put him to death. Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and threw it at Moses’ feet, and she said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me.”

6) Samuel 18:25-27 ESV

Then Saul said, “Thus shall you say to David, ‘The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king’s enemies.’” Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.

7) Leviticus 20

“18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”

8) Leviticus 24:16

Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

9) Kings 2:23

Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

10) Deut. 28:53

Then because of the dire straights to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you.

11) Deut. 28: 27
May the Lord strike you with Egyptian boils and with tumors, scabs and itch for which you will find no cure.

I see a creepy pre-occupation with everyone's genitals in this 'old book'...

Eat your children? That tracks...

Impregnate your sister-in-law? All good...

Kill everyone who utters 'his' name? Makes sense...

Again, you're proving my point about weighted voting. Thanks

[sarisataka]

240. I am not one who takes the Bible literally

I assume my brain has a purpose so I look farther than isolated passages.

I do appreciate that you are will to compromise, that I am almost a person. It shows your character.

[Wonder Why]

245. JUst like the CINOs. Don't quote Christ. Quote the Old Testament.

[dawg]

217. My religion teaches me to do unto others as I would want done to myself.

I woudn't want the government to establish some other religion, therefore I also strongly oppose the establishment of *my* religion.

That might not make any sense to you, but to me, it's perfectiy consistent.

[NJCher]

219. the card table in my bedroom

when I was a kid, I realized life was tenuous. Therefore, I thought, it was of utmost importance to understand the world's religions.

I set up a card table and chair in my little pink and white striped bedroom. I studied the world's "great" religions, checking out books from the library and filling notebooks of what struck me as important from readings.

At the conclusion of this grand experiment, I decided the best thing is to pioneer one's own "religion," if you want to call it that. Explore yourself.

[Kaleva]

222. We all strongly support deeply religious Biden

As we did for Carter

[Mariana]

249. I would support him just the same if he was an atheist.

I would hope most Democrats would do the same.

[Kaleva]

254. Biden s religious convictions don't bother most Democrats I think.

[Act_of_Reparation]

260. Think he would have been elected if he were an atheist?

Somehow, I think not.

[Kaleva]

263. He might not even got past the primary

[MistakenLamb]

234. As an atheist, no

We don't need more atheists though that seems inevitable with growning non religious affiliations of americans, we need people regardless of their affiliation who are tolerant and affirming of others. Atheists are definitely not that by default. Some of them actually should be slightly more out of reach of the levers of power than some religious extremists

[Wonder Why]

247. +100. Thanks.

This whole thread shows that no matter what good there is in D.U, there is still some intolerance here.