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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsInternational chess body bans transgender women from women's competitions
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/08/17/fide-transgender-ban-chess-women/Under the new guidelines from the International Chess Federation known by its French acronym, FIDE individuals who transition from male to female have no right to compete in official events for women until further analysis is made, which could take up to two years. Additionally, if a player holds titles in womens categories and transitions to male, the women titles are to be abolished, while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says.
FIDE also said it has the right to inform the organizers and other relevant parties about a players gender change, which it said was to prevent players from possible illegitimate enrollments in tournaments.
Yosha Iglesias, a FIDE master and chess coach from France, expressed concern about the new regulations, writing on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, that the federation made it sound as if transgender players are the biggest threat to women in chess.
For all the crowing about PrOtEcTiNg WoMeN, anti-trans ideology is driven by misogyny.
Mister Ed
(5,953 posts)The idea seems blindly sexist at its very core. Maybe it's time for the chess world to toss that divided structure onto the ash-heap of history.
marmar
(77,136 posts)Johnny2X2X
(19,342 posts)Of the 1600 international masters in the world, only 37 are women. I support having female divisions because it encourages more women to play and I think chess is a game that is not only beautiful, but can be an amazing tool to teach children of all sexes stategic thinking and confidence. Learning chess at a young age is a gift more children should receive.
There's not a women chess player in the world who is ranked in the top 100 of all chess players. Combining the sexes would shut women out of playing chess for a living.
MichMan
(12,002 posts)Having separate gender based competitions in a mental game like chess is absurd
Polybius
(15,544 posts)What about the sexes makes men better equipped for chess?
Response to Polybius (Reply #29)
Johnny2X2X This message was self-deleted by its author.
meadowlander
(4,413 posts)Just because most elite chess players are men doesn't mean there's necessarily a quality more prevalent in men that explains it. There could be any number of social factors playing a part.
As an example, the ratio of men to women with autism has been dropping for decades from almost no women diagnosed in the 40s and 50s to 20-1 to 8-1 to 4-1 to now more like 3-1 and many researchers thinking it could be 1-1. The problem is that women are poorly diagnosed, not that men are inherently more likely to have it.
From toddler years, girls are conditioned to be social and friendly, whereas if a boy wants to wander around the playground noticing TV aerials (or playing chess obsessively) he's left alone to do so. Boys are probably more likely to be talent scouted and encouraged to play chess while girls' talents are ignored or discouraged. Boys have more role models of great chess players to look up to.
I quit my high school chess team because it was full of condescending assholes. Who knows how many other women have done the same because it just wasn't worth it to them.
Male CEOs outnumber female CEOs 17 to 1. Male congresspeople outnumber female congresspeople 3 to 1. We have never had a female US President. But it would be absurd to look at those stats and say "well, there must be something about men's brains that make them better leaders".
Until you isolate scientifically what that thing is, it's not more plausible than the obvious social factors that hold women back.
Response to meadowlander (Reply #37)
Johnny2X2X This message was self-deleted by its author.
hunter
(38,354 posts)There were two guys for every girl and the girls were hard.
Nerdy guys can be just as sexist as anyone else.
Look at the later video game guy scandals. Similar types of nerds.
My first two years in college I was an engineering major. That was an extremely hostile environment for women. It's not because women can't do the math.
I changed my major to biology partly because I was more comfortable in classes where half the students were women, not just one or two exceptions.
One of my college girlfriends was an engineer. She made it through because she rode a big bad ass motorcycle, was brilliant at math, and would crush the balls of any man who crossed her.
Life shouldn't be like that.
MorbidButterflyTat
(1,885 posts)Of the 1600 international masters in the world, only 37 are women."
"There's not a women (sic) chess player in the world who is ranked in the top 100 of all chess players."
Do you think that's because women are intellectually inferior?
No.
Zeitghost
(3,898 posts)an equality and taking steps to make things more equal wrong?
If group X is underrepresented in an activity, not through any lack of ability but due to historical social barriers, is it wrong, patronizing or discriminatory to artificially level the playing field until a time comes that those historic social barriers have been removed?
Johnny2X2X
(19,342 posts)I am an avid chess player and fan. I follow all the big FIDE tournaments. This seems like a cure looking for a problem. Have their been trans chess players causing concerns about fairness?
Chess is not boxing or basketball, there is no physical advantage for either sex, it's a mental exercise. For one reason or another, almost all of the top players are men. A big part of that is that there are a lot more men playing chess than women, but for some other unknown reason, men are generally better at chess than women. So they have divisions divided by sex so we can have women world champions.
I don't know how I'd feel if a top male player who was a grandmaster, but not a truly elite world title candidates level player transitioned to female and then won the women's world title. But I don't think there's any reason to guard against something that is unlikely to happen.
Mad_Machine76
(24,464 posts)And why that might be an actual problem? And why do you think theyd be more likely to win in the womens league?
Response to Mad_Machine76 (Reply #14)
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LearnedHand
(3,396 posts)With women's born mental abilities. No. This is not a male/female thing. It's flat out misogyny to imply that a woman born in a man's body somehow has a superior mental advantage for chess and this poses a threat to cisgendered women chess players. Recognize the framing, especially the teeth-gritting "men have to protect the little ladies because they wouldn't advance otherwise."
Mad_Machine76
(24,464 posts)Although I don't agree that a male transitioning to a woman is guaranteed to win. NOBODY, male or female or Transgender, is guaranteed to win anything anytime anywhere........
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)That is literally teh logic used by saying men are better than women at chess/strategy, etc.
So, guessgeebers so glad Hillary didn't win! How would that wimmin do at strategy! Goshdarnkins am I glad no women are Generals or Secretary of States! Goobersgeezwhiz.
MorbidButterflyTat
(1,885 posts)Scrivener7
(51,098 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)"Additionally, if a player holds titles in womens categories and transitions to male, the women titles are to be abolished, while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says."
I mean leaving aside the fact that it's just generally fucked up, I can't even see how it's remotely logical at it's core. I mean there's a lot of positions one could take that are kinda morally evil, but at least there's SOME logic to the argument.
On this one I can't even see how anyone could think 'this makes sense'. Either you don't vacate, or you always vacate, no matter the direction of transition.
This one is just total fucking nonsense
MorbidButterflyTat
(1,885 posts)in womens categories and transitions to male, the women titles are to be abolished, while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says."
Sexist at its very core.
Collimator
(1,640 posts)There are no advantages conferred by muscle mass, bone density or the size/efficiency of organs such as the diaphram or lungs. Machines can play chess.
Response to Collimator (Reply #6)
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WhiskeyGrinder
(22,533 posts)biological ones.
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)It is shocking to me.
By their logic, black folks are stupider than white folks, because more white people are chess champs. But they thrive in sports, so that's cool amirite?
Jesus Christ.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,533 posts)Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #13)
Hugh_Lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,533 posts)Your putting so much weight on chromosomes would indicate otherwise, but OK.
Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #22)
Hugh_Lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)On DU. In 2023. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so bigoted and unscientific.
Gosh, how many black chess champs compared to white men? OH GOSH I GUESS BLACKS AREN'T AS SMART AS WHITES
You see how that sounds? That is what you said.
Couldn't be a pipeline issue, right? Couldn't be boys are encouraged and girls aren't. Couldn't be misogyny and sexism and racism, could it?
Oh no, women and girls just aren't as smart as men and bots where chess is concerned. Oh no. Those black people, too. Too bad they aren't as smart as those white guys. They are good at sports, though.
THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING
wHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS OKAY?
Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #15)
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Ms. Toad
(34,150 posts)It is just as much trans hostility as advocating for banning them from sports, which he expressly forbid. https://www.democraticunderground.com/101312142
And on top of trans hostility, this has a heaping helping of misogyny thrown in.
If you can't see that, you might want to review all is those studies which proved blacks were inferior to whites.
vercetti2021
(10,159 posts)It still runs rampant on here without any punishment Hugh and Johnny are on my block list. Hugh tried playing nice with me but fuck that shit. I will not be playing nice trans woman anymore to bigots on this site.
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)You are wrong as hell.
It makes me LAUGH that you think it is a flex against me that I am pro LGBT+ and women.
Just shows your ideals more.
vercetti2021
(10,159 posts)He tried to play friendly friendly with me because I am trans, but I see nothing changed much. All talk.
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)Last night. Telling me how I was wrong.
My God. To him, I am "one of those," ie someone who calls out anti lgbt+ and misogyny.
vercetti2021
(10,159 posts)Attacking a trans person head on would be a bad move. But I'm tired of this shit. Like the arguments about trans women having bone structure and muscle advantage. Like c'mon. I'm not built like I use to be. Everything weakens down. Muscles, bones. All of it. I
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)He sent another PM. Jesus. I have my own DU stalker now.
vercetti2021
(10,159 posts)That's all you can do
Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #15)
Post removed
unblock
(52,531 posts)In other words, we don't know what we're doing, but in the meanwhile, we're going to err on the side of being cruel to trans women.
And what exactly are they going to "study" other than the politics?
I guarantee that the variance in chess ability among cis-women chess players is far greater than the entire population of trans women chess players.
Goodheart
(5,352 posts)in order to win chess matches, no matter how unproven that advantage might be.
Riiiiiiiiiight.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)want trans players to compete?
This makes no sense to me.
Zeitghost
(3,898 posts)That the FIDE does not want them competing in the women's division. There have been no restrictions in the open division based on gender identity.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)I remember years ago when a male doctor became a female tennis player. There was lots of back and forth at that time.
obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)So, if a MTW plays against cis women, they will lose because men are smarter.
There is zero proof of that, it is not true.
This is nothing like Renee Richards.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)She didnt become a female tennis player. She was already a tennis player.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)remembered that there were discussions on fairness to other women players. But I don't think it ever became a huge deal.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Renee Richards is probably who you were thinking about. I think she is still alive. I was very involved in tennis at the time and remember it well.
She has since said she doesnt think she should have been allowed to compete on the womens tour.
NOTE: HER words, before anyone gets trigger-happy.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Goolagong (one of my faves), Margaret Court, Arthur Ashe, and numerous others because of my parents involvement in tennis. I was just a teen and so starstruck as a young tennis player.
I was the same age as Martina when I met her, and even drove her to the airport in my bright yellow Vega lol! (This was before she had made her name obviously, and still lived in what was then Czechoslovakia.) She must have hated being driven by a teenager in a yellow Vega, but I was over the moon.
My mother was supposed to take her to the airport in her much more respectable car, but I begged and begged and begged. I was still struggling with my sexual orientation at the time, and so was she.
She was very sweet to me despite my fangirling all the way to the airport. Her English was not strong at that time, and no doubt I was babbling away.
Never forgotten that.
Solly Mack
(90,803 posts)gay men and women. Attacks on masculinity and femininity. The attacks are gender based.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,533 posts)Solly Mack
(90,803 posts)...as you were saying.
It's bullshit.
LearnedHand
(3,396 posts)obamanut2012
(26,202 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,150 posts)And as you point out clearly based on misogyny. As my high school sweetheart explained to me - The moment she transitioned, her IQ went down 20 points. (To be clear: It didn't actually go down 20 points - but it did in the eyes of people who believe women are dumb, and how she was treated reflected that perception.)
Suggesting that women can't compete with men is ridiculous. But just like so many other gender/race differences in achievement far too many confuse correlation with causation and conclude women and racial minorities are far less competent because their numbers in science, math, corporate leadership are lower than those of cis-white men.
Maybe (specific to chess) there should be more encouragement to participate in chess - rather than saying: Don't you worry your pretty little head. We'll make a separte women's division - AND - we'll protect you from those evil trans women (who we all know are really men) from outsmarting you.
Zeitghost
(3,898 posts)That the reason women are not as equally represented at the highest level of chess is not due to a lack of intelligence.
Just as we can all agree that the reason various ethnic and socioeconomic groups are not as represented in college admissions is not due to a lack of intelligence.
We can recognize that the inequality still exists and take steps to level the playing field in various ways without labeling those efforts as patronizing.
haele
(12,708 posts)It's similar to that Old Boy Club mentality that still permeates a lot of established academia.
Until the 1970's/1980's, women were just not expected to stay as smart as any childhood potential might show because apparently once we get our periods or have babies or something like that, our mental acuity is run by our hormones instead of our native intelligence or something.
We just don't have enough testosterone to be good at pattern solving or something like that. Or maybe we're just not cutthroat competitive because Wimmin are s'posed to be diplomatic an' nurturing and that sort of BS, so they gave us our own little table to sit and pretend we can play Chess like the Real Men do.
I don't know for sure. But it just seems to look like Old Boy Club policy making.
Haele
GenThePerservering
(1,893 posts)the headwinds female chess players have to endure in the 'sport' are vicious - as a discipline, chess is notoriously mysoginistic.
LAS14
(13,792 posts)LearnedHand
(3,396 posts)Iris
(15,679 posts)Brainfodder
(6,424 posts)HUH?