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WhiskeyGrinder

(22,533 posts)
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 08:03 AM Aug 2023

International chess body bans transgender women from women's competitions

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/08/17/fide-transgender-ban-chess-women/

The international governing body for chess has released new policies that prohibit transgender women from competing in women’s events and will strip some transgender players of their titles.

Under the new guidelines from the International Chess Federation — known by its French acronym, FIDE — individuals who transition from male to female have “no right” to compete in official events for women until “further analysis” is made, which could take up to two years. Additionally, if a player holds titles in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says.

FIDE also said it has the right to “inform the organizers and other relevant parties” about a player’s gender change, which it said was to prevent players “from possible illegitimate enrollments in tournaments.”

Yosha Iglesias, a FIDE master and chess coach from France, expressed concern about the new regulations, writing on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, that the federation made it sound as if transgender players are “the biggest threat” to women in chess.


For all the crowing about PrOtEcTiNg WoMeN, anti-trans ideology is driven by misogyny.
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International chess body bans transgender women from women's competitions (Original Post) WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2023 OP
I can't understand why chess competition is divided by gender to begin with. Mister Ed Aug 2023 #1
Same here. marmar Aug 2023 #3
There are differences in the sexes Johnny2X2X Aug 2023 #4
If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough MichMan Aug 2023 #12
But why is that? Polybius Aug 2023 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author Johnny2X2X Aug 2023 #30
Correlation doesn't equal causation. meadowlander Aug 2023 #37
This message was self-deleted by its author Johnny2X2X Aug 2023 #38
I was a high school chess club geek. It wasn't a friendly place for girls. hunter Aug 2023 #48
"There are differences in the sexes MorbidButterflyTat Aug 2023 #65
Is recognizing Zeitghost Aug 2023 #52
Chess? Johnny2X2X Aug 2023 #2
Could you please explain your last paragraph Mad_Machine76 Aug 2023 #14
Post removed Post removed Aug 2023 #19
You're conflating women having been historically shut out LearnedHand Aug 2023 #33
Thanks for clarifying Mad_Machine76 Aug 2023 #40
Women are too stupid to be Presdient, don't you agree obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #42
+1 MorbidButterflyTat Aug 2023 #66
Absurd. Scrivener7 Aug 2023 #5
This bit in particular ... Hugh_Lebowski Aug 2023 #9
"Additionally, if a player holds titles MorbidButterflyTat Aug 2023 #67
It is chess. Collimator Aug 2023 #6
Post removed Post removed Aug 2023 #11
What you're describing can be explained very easily by social and cultural contexts, rather than WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2023 #13
I cannot believe that post obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #16
This place doesn't shock me at all anymore tbh WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2023 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author Hugh_Lebowski Aug 2023 #21
"Science...comes first for me." WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2023 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author Hugh_Lebowski Aug 2023 #25
WTF you are actually saying women aren't as good as men at chess for BIOLOGICAL REASONS obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #15
Post removed Post removed Aug 2023 #23
While EarlG didn't expressly forbid advocating banning trans women from chess, Ms. Toad Aug 2023 #39
Nothing new vercetti2021 Aug 2023 #53
Then block me obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #41
Dude ended up on my block vercetti2021 Aug 2023 #54
He bypassed DU rules and sent me a long, unhinged Dzm obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #58
He wouldn't do it to me vercetti2021 Aug 2023 #59
He just sent me another one -- I thought that was against the rules????? obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #63
Report vercetti2021 Aug 2023 #64
Post removed Post removed Aug 2023 #28
'"Further analysis", which could take up to two years' unblock Aug 2023 #7
Yes, because people go through the pain of gender surgeries and such Goodheart Aug 2023 #8
Hum. Aren't most chess players men? So they don't leftyladyfrommo Aug 2023 #10
It appears Zeitghost Aug 2023 #46
That makes some sense. This is such a touchy issue. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2023 #47
No, it is because teh Chess folks are saying women are not as smart as men obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #49
Lol, she transitioned and was then a female doctor. BlackSkimmer Aug 2023 #56
Sorry. I read a book about 40 years ago. I just leftyladyfrommo Aug 2023 #57
No, it just came out funny the way you wrote it lol. BlackSkimmer Aug 2023 #60
I remember Martina. She is one of my heroes. nt leftyladyfrommo Aug 2023 #61
Yes, I was very fortunate to meet her, Chrissie, Billie Jean, Yvonne BlackSkimmer Aug 2023 #62
Not just trans-phobia either. That's why they use the same insults against women to attack Solly Mack Aug 2023 #17
Yep yep WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2023 #26
Which is why I scoff at those who claim they are protecting women Solly Mack Aug 2023 #27
What WG said! LearnedHand Aug 2023 #34
Bingo, Solly obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #50
I was sure this had to be a parody article. Chess? Ms. Toad Aug 2023 #18
I think we can all agree Zeitghost Aug 2023 #51
Stupid rule. The cultural environment around Chess is historically misogynistic. haele Aug 2023 #20
This is a nature versus nuture issue if ever I saw one GenThePerservering Aug 2023 #31
Well, it's the upper body strength required to take a pawn. nt LAS14 Aug 2023 #32
Oh thank you for that belly laugh! LearnedHand Aug 2023 #35
This is bullshit Iris Aug 2023 #36
That made me laugh, CHESS? They are afraid they can't compete with male brains? Brainfodder Aug 2023 #43
No, they are afraid the MTF players will beat all the women, because women are not as smart as men obamanut2012 Aug 2023 #45
Is nothing safe from transphobes? (Nt) LostOne4Ever Aug 2023 #44
I admit, the first thing I looked for was the Borowitz byline. nt Buns_of_Fire Aug 2023 #55

Mister Ed

(5,953 posts)
1. I can't understand why chess competition is divided by gender to begin with.
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 08:11 AM
Aug 2023

The idea seems blindly sexist at its very core. Maybe it's time for the chess world to toss that divided structure onto the ash-heap of history.

Johnny2X2X

(19,342 posts)
4. There are differences in the sexes
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 08:18 AM
Aug 2023

Of the 1600 international masters in the world, only 37 are women. I support having female divisions because it encourages more women to play and I think chess is a game that is not only beautiful, but can be an amazing tool to teach children of all sexes stategic thinking and confidence. Learning chess at a young age is a gift more children should receive.

There's not a women chess player in the world who is ranked in the top 100 of all chess players. Combining the sexes would shut women out of playing chess for a living.

MichMan

(12,002 posts)
12. If they aren't good enough, they aren't good enough
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 11:58 AM
Aug 2023

Having separate gender based competitions in a mental game like chess is absurd

Response to Polybius (Reply #29)

meadowlander

(4,413 posts)
37. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 02:48 PM
Aug 2023

Just because most elite chess players are men doesn't mean there's necessarily a quality more prevalent in men that explains it. There could be any number of social factors playing a part.

As an example, the ratio of men to women with autism has been dropping for decades from almost no women diagnosed in the 40s and 50s to 20-1 to 8-1 to 4-1 to now more like 3-1 and many researchers thinking it could be 1-1. The problem is that women are poorly diagnosed, not that men are inherently more likely to have it.

From toddler years, girls are conditioned to be social and friendly, whereas if a boy wants to wander around the playground noticing TV aerials (or playing chess obsessively) he's left alone to do so. Boys are probably more likely to be talent scouted and encouraged to play chess while girls' talents are ignored or discouraged. Boys have more role models of great chess players to look up to.

I quit my high school chess team because it was full of condescending assholes. Who knows how many other women have done the same because it just wasn't worth it to them.

Male CEOs outnumber female CEOs 17 to 1. Male congresspeople outnumber female congresspeople 3 to 1. We have never had a female US President. But it would be absurd to look at those stats and say "well, there must be something about men's brains that make them better leaders".

Until you isolate scientifically what that thing is, it's not more plausible than the obvious social factors that hold women back.

Response to meadowlander (Reply #37)

hunter

(38,354 posts)
48. I was a high school chess club geek. It wasn't a friendly place for girls.
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 06:32 PM
Aug 2023

There were two guys for every girl and the girls were hard.

Nerdy guys can be just as sexist as anyone else.

Look at the later video game guy scandals. Similar types of nerds.

My first two years in college I was an engineering major. That was an extremely hostile environment for women. It's not because women can't do the math.

I changed my major to biology partly because I was more comfortable in classes where half the students were women, not just one or two exceptions.

One of my college girlfriends was an engineer. She made it through because she rode a big bad ass motorcycle, was brilliant at math, and would crush the balls of any man who crossed her.

Life shouldn't be like that.

MorbidButterflyTat

(1,885 posts)
65. "There are differences in the sexes
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 07:19 PM
Aug 2023

Of the 1600 international masters in the world, only 37 are women."

"There's not a women (sic) chess player in the world who is ranked in the top 100 of all chess players."

Do you think that's because women are intellectually inferior?


No.

Zeitghost

(3,898 posts)
52. Is recognizing
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 07:12 PM
Aug 2023

an equality and taking steps to make things more equal wrong?

If group X is underrepresented in an activity, not through any lack of ability but due to historical social barriers, is it wrong, patronizing or discriminatory to artificially level the playing field until a time comes that those historic social barriers have been removed?

Johnny2X2X

(19,342 posts)
2. Chess?
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 08:14 AM
Aug 2023

I am an avid chess player and fan. I follow all the big FIDE tournaments. This seems like a cure looking for a problem. Have their been trans chess players causing concerns about fairness?

Chess is not boxing or basketball, there is no physical advantage for either sex, it's a mental exercise. For one reason or another, almost all of the top players are men. A big part of that is that there are a lot more men playing chess than women, but for some other unknown reason, men are generally better at chess than women. So they have divisions divided by sex so we can have women world champions.

I don't know how I'd feel if a top male player who was a grandmaster, but not a truly elite world title candidates level player transitioned to female and then won the women's world title. But I don't think there's any reason to guard against something that is unlikely to happen.

Mad_Machine76

(24,464 posts)
14. Could you please explain your last paragraph
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 12:18 PM
Aug 2023

And why that might be an actual problem? And why do you think they’d be more likely to win in the women’s league?

Response to Mad_Machine76 (Reply #14)

LearnedHand

(3,396 posts)
33. You're conflating women having been historically shut out
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 02:28 PM
Aug 2023

With women's born mental abilities. No. This is not a male/female thing. It's flat out misogyny to imply that a woman born in a man's body somehow has a superior mental advantage for chess and this poses a threat to cisgendered women chess players. Recognize the framing, especially the teeth-gritting "men have to protect the little ladies because they wouldn't advance otherwise."

Mad_Machine76

(24,464 posts)
40. Thanks for clarifying
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 04:26 PM
Aug 2023

Although I don't agree that a male transitioning to a woman is guaranteed to win. NOBODY, male or female or Transgender, is guaranteed to win anything anytime anywhere........

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
42. Women are too stupid to be Presdient, don't you agree
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 04:34 PM
Aug 2023

That is literally teh logic used by saying men are better than women at chess/strategy, etc.

So, guessgeebers so glad Hillary didn't win! How would that wimmin do at strategy! Goshdarnkins am I glad no women are Generals or Secretary of States! Goobersgeezwhiz.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
9. This bit in particular ...
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 09:04 AM
Aug 2023

"Additionally, if a player holds titles in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says."

I mean leaving aside the fact that it's just generally fucked up, I can't even see how it's remotely logical at it's core. I mean there's a lot of positions one could take that are kinda morally evil, but at least there's SOME logic to the argument.

On this one I can't even see how anyone could think 'this makes sense'. Either you don't vacate, or you always vacate, no matter the direction of transition.

This one is just total fucking nonsense

MorbidButterflyTat

(1,885 posts)
67. "Additionally, if a player holds titles
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 07:26 PM
Aug 2023

in women’s categories and transitions to male, “the women titles are to be abolished,” while if the player transitions from male to female, the titles will remain, the handbook says."

Sexist at its very core.

Collimator

(1,640 posts)
6. It is chess.
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 08:49 AM
Aug 2023

There are no advantages conferred by muscle mass, bone density or the size/efficiency of organs such as the diaphram or lungs. Machines can play chess.

Response to Collimator (Reply #6)

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,533 posts)
13. What you're describing can be explained very easily by social and cultural contexts, rather than
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 12:09 PM
Aug 2023

biological ones.

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
16. I cannot believe that post
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 12:22 PM
Aug 2023

It is shocking to me.

By their logic, black folks are stupider than white folks, because more white people are chess champs. But they thrive in sports, so that's cool amirite?

Jesus Christ.

Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #13)

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,533 posts)
22. "Science...comes first for me."
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 01:15 PM
Aug 2023

Your putting so much weight on chromosomes would indicate otherwise, but OK.

Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #22)

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
15. WTF you are actually saying women aren't as good as men at chess for BIOLOGICAL REASONS
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 12:21 PM
Aug 2023

On DU. In 2023. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting something so bigoted and unscientific.

Gosh, how many black chess champs compared to white men? OH GOSH I GUESS BLACKS AREN'T AS SMART AS WHITES

You see how that sounds? That is what you said.

Couldn't be a pipeline issue, right? Couldn't be boys are encouraged and girls aren't. Couldn't be misogyny and sexism and racism, could it?

Oh no, women and girls just aren't as smart as men and bots where chess is concerned. Oh no. Those black people, too. Too bad they aren't as smart as those white guys. They are good at sports, though.

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

wHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS OKAY?

Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #15)

Ms. Toad

(34,150 posts)
39. While EarlG didn't expressly forbid advocating banning trans women from chess,
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 03:18 PM
Aug 2023

It is just as much trans hostility as advocating for banning them from sports, which he expressly forbid. https://www.democraticunderground.com/101312142

And on top of trans hostility, this has a heaping helping of misogyny thrown in.

If you can't see that, you might want to review all is those studies which proved blacks were inferior to whites.

vercetti2021

(10,159 posts)
53. Nothing new
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 03:59 AM
Aug 2023

It still runs rampant on here without any punishment Hugh and Johnny are on my block list. Hugh tried playing nice with me but fuck that shit. I will not be playing nice trans woman anymore to bigots on this site.

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
41. Then block me
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 04:30 PM
Aug 2023

You are wrong as hell.

It makes me LAUGH that you think it is a flex against me that I am pro LGBT+ and women.

Just shows your ideals more.

vercetti2021

(10,159 posts)
54. Dude ended up on my block
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 04:01 AM
Aug 2023

He tried to play friendly friendly with me because I am trans, but I see nothing changed much. All talk.

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
58. He bypassed DU rules and sent me a long, unhinged Dzm
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 07:34 AM
Aug 2023

Last night. Telling me how I was wrong.

My God. To him, I am "one of those," ie someone who calls out anti lgbt+ and misogyny.

vercetti2021

(10,159 posts)
59. He wouldn't do it to me
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 07:40 AM
Aug 2023

Attacking a trans person head on would be a bad move. But I'm tired of this shit. Like the arguments about trans women having bone structure and muscle advantage. Like c'mon. I'm not built like I use to be. Everything weakens down. Muscles, bones. All of it. I

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
63. He just sent me another one -- I thought that was against the rules?????
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 09:47 AM
Aug 2023

He sent another PM. Jesus. I have my own DU stalker now.

Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #15)

unblock

(52,531 posts)
7. '"Further analysis", which could take up to two years'
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 08:56 AM
Aug 2023

In other words, we don't know what we're doing, but in the meanwhile, we're going to err on the side of being cruel to trans women.

And what exactly are they going to "study" other than the politics?

I guarantee that the variance in chess ability among cis-women chess players is far greater than the entire population of trans women chess players.

Goodheart

(5,352 posts)
8. Yes, because people go through the pain of gender surgeries and such
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 09:00 AM
Aug 2023

in order to win chess matches, no matter how unproven that advantage might be.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Zeitghost

(3,898 posts)
46. It appears
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 06:14 PM
Aug 2023

That the FIDE does not want them competing in the women's division. There have been no restrictions in the open division based on gender identity.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,874 posts)
47. That makes some sense. This is such a touchy issue.
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 06:21 PM
Aug 2023

I remember years ago when a male doctor became a female tennis player. There was lots of back and forth at that time.

obamanut2012

(26,202 posts)
49. No, it is because teh Chess folks are saying women are not as smart as men
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 06:40 PM
Aug 2023

So, if a MTW plays against cis women, they will lose because men are smarter.

There is zero proof of that, it is not true.

This is nothing like Renee Richards.

 

BlackSkimmer

(51,308 posts)
56. Lol, she transitioned and was then a female doctor.
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 05:23 AM
Aug 2023

She didn’t “become” a female tennis player. She was already a tennis player.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,874 posts)
57. Sorry. I read a book about 40 years ago. I just
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 07:12 AM
Aug 2023

remembered that there were discussions on fairness to other women players. But I don't think it ever became a huge deal.

 

BlackSkimmer

(51,308 posts)
60. No, it just came out funny the way you wrote it lol.
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 07:56 AM
Aug 2023

Renee Richards is probably who you were thinking about. I think she is still alive. I was very involved in tennis at the time and remember it well.

She has since said she doesn’t think she should have been allowed to compete on the women’s tour.

NOTE: HER words, before anyone gets trigger-happy.

 

BlackSkimmer

(51,308 posts)
62. Yes, I was very fortunate to meet her, Chrissie, Billie Jean, Yvonne
Fri Aug 18, 2023, 09:34 AM
Aug 2023

Goolagong (one of my faves), Margaret Court, Arthur Ashe, and numerous others because of my parents’ involvement in tennis. I was just a teen and so starstruck as a young tennis player.

I was the same age as Martina when I met her, and even drove her to the airport in my bright yellow Vega lol! (This was before she had made her name obviously, and still lived in what was then Czechoslovakia.) She must have hated being driven by a teenager in a yellow Vega, but I was over the moon.

My mother was supposed to take her to the airport in her much more respectable car, but I begged and begged and begged. I was still struggling with my sexual orientation at the time, and so was she.

She was very sweet to me despite my fangirling all the way to the airport. Her English was not strong at that time, and no doubt I was babbling away.

Never forgotten that.

Solly Mack

(90,803 posts)
17. Not just trans-phobia either. That's why they use the same insults against women to attack
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 12:27 PM
Aug 2023

gay men and women. Attacks on masculinity and femininity. The attacks are gender based.


For all the crowing about PrOtEcTiNg WoMeN, anti-trans ideology is driven by misogyny.




Solly Mack

(90,803 posts)
27. Which is why I scoff at those who claim they are protecting women
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 01:38 PM
Aug 2023

...as you were saying.

It's bullshit.



Ms. Toad

(34,150 posts)
18. I was sure this had to be a parody article. Chess?
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 12:41 PM
Aug 2023

And as you point out clearly based on misogyny. As my high school sweetheart explained to me - The moment she transitioned, her IQ went down 20 points. (To be clear: It didn't actually go down 20 points - but it did in the eyes of people who believe women are dumb, and how she was treated reflected that perception.)

Suggesting that women can't compete with men is ridiculous. But just like so many other gender/race differences in achievement far too many confuse correlation with causation and conclude women and racial minorities are far less competent because their numbers in science, math, corporate leadership are lower than those of cis-white men.

Maybe (specific to chess) there should be more encouragement to participate in chess - rather than saying: Don't you worry your pretty little head. We'll make a separte women's division - AND - we'll protect you from those evil trans women (who we all know are really men) from outsmarting you.

Zeitghost

(3,898 posts)
51. I think we can all agree
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 07:05 PM
Aug 2023

That the reason women are not as equally represented at the highest level of chess is not due to a lack of intelligence.

Just as we can all agree that the reason various ethnic and socioeconomic groups are not as represented in college admissions is not due to a lack of intelligence.


We can recognize that the inequality still exists and take steps to level the playing field in various ways without labeling those efforts as patronizing.

haele

(12,708 posts)
20. Stupid rule. The cultural environment around Chess is historically misogynistic.
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 01:03 PM
Aug 2023

It's similar to that Old Boy Club mentality that still permeates a lot of established academia.
Until the 1970's/1980's, women were just not expected to stay as smart as any childhood potential might show because apparently once we get our periods or have babies or something like that, our mental acuity is run by our hormones instead of our native intelligence or something.

We just don't have enough testosterone to be good at pattern solving or something like that. Or maybe we're just not cutthroat competitive because Wimmin are s'posed to be diplomatic an' nurturing and that sort of BS, so they gave us our own little table to sit and pretend we can play Chess like the Real Men do.


I don't know for sure. But it just seems to look like Old Boy Club policy making.

Haele

GenThePerservering

(1,893 posts)
31. This is a nature versus nuture issue if ever I saw one
Thu Aug 17, 2023, 02:26 PM
Aug 2023

the headwinds female chess players have to endure in the 'sport' are vicious - as a discipline, chess is notoriously mysoginistic.

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