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Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 09:34 AM Jul 2023

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has announced that all vessels entering or leaving Russian prts

will be presumed to be carrying military cargo and be subject to attack.




Ukraine has the means to sink Russian freighters. Insurance rates just got raised. (The grain deal will be resumed soon but I'm hoping a few freighters carrying Iranian drones and Russian oil get sent to the bottom first).
39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has announced that all vessels entering or leaving Russian prts (Original Post) Tomconroy Jul 2023 OP
Fire up another round for the Kerch Bridge, Ukraine! roamer65 Jul 2023 #1
Hit the railroad span. COL Mustard Jul 2023 #8
Russia is absolutely wrecking the port city of Odessa, massive bombing every night Shanti Shanti Shanti Jul 2023 #2
Anyone in NATO KS Toronado Jul 2023 #3
Ukraine has Navy drones and missiles that can do the job. Tomconroy Jul 2023 #5
Iranian materials go through the Caspian relayerbob Jul 2023 #4
A logical response to Russian escalation. maxsolomon Jul 2023 #6
Illogical escalation met by illogical escalation, in a fog of facts...no. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #12
Making a lot of sense as usual, Alex maxsolomon Jul 2023 #13
Civil wars are always the worst kind...both/all sides get played by superpowers as proxies. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #14
It's not a Civil War. maxsolomon Jul 2023 #15
The Russian orthodox Slavs are fighting the Roman Catholic Slavs in the Eastern UKR Provinces. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #17
That's a bit garbled. If a country fights off an invader, it's NOT a civil war, no matter how much... Hekate Jul 2023 #20
Yes, it's a bit garbled, too much too condense without. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #21
the Donbas separatist "Civil War" was as Russia-manufactured maxsolomon Jul 2023 #24
...a few neos fighting on both sides is a minor point, but it's true...inflated minor point Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #26
You can't change the characterization EndlessWire Jul 2023 #33
Where are you getting "civil war" from? Hekate Jul 2023 #19
Seems like the modern version sarisataka Jul 2023 #7
Maybe it's to supply Ukraine with decommissioned navy vessels and let them use the US naval ports cstanleytech Jul 2023 #9
ruzzia attacks Ukrainian infrastructure (grain sales) and Ukraine attacks ruzzian infrastructure mitch96 Jul 2023 #10
The freighters have People onboard, not soldiers,,,wishing their horrible deaths is horrible. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #11
Please do not respond to my posts. Tomconroy Jul 2023 #16
Just mute him... that way you don't have to face a conflicting fact or viewpoint. WarGamer Jul 2023 #34
Tell that to Putin. Emile Jul 2023 #18
What then is the practical alternative Torchlight Jul 2023 #22
Truce, frozen front lines....UN blue helmet peacekeepers...elections in all the eastern regions Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #23
Not practical. Putin rejected UN inspections in Crimea after his invasion. Torchlight Jul 2023 #25
Crimea self determination, verified, has to be in a negotiation. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #30
Putin will not allow that to happen without more violence and death. Torchlight Jul 2023 #31
Russia will probably stick civilians on a ship. TheBlackAdder Jul 2023 #27
Who do you think is on the ships now? sarisataka Jul 2023 #29
I'm talking more like Ukrainian captures, like women and children. TheBlackAdder Jul 2023 #32
Next level thinking! Sail the massive freighters OIL tankers with hostages aboard! Brilliant! Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #35
I don't think other countries will approve sarisataka Jul 2023 #37
Isn't this an area subject to Freedom of Seas passage? Like the straights of Hormuz? Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #36
Somewhat different being a war zone but sarisataka Jul 2023 #38
70 subs to 0. 0 in any water. Alexander Of Assyria Jul 2023 #39
I would rather that oil freighters NOT be sunk. edisdead Jul 2023 #28
 

Shanti Shanti Shanti

(12,047 posts)
2. Russia is absolutely wrecking the port city of Odessa, massive bombing every night
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 10:07 AM
Jul 2023

Long range high altitude bombers with cruise missiles now, they can't be stopped

maxsolomon

(33,473 posts)
6. A logical response to Russian escalation.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 11:53 AM
Jul 2023

Whether they have the capacity to cripple Russian shipping remains to be seen.

This War is a long way from done.

maxsolomon

(33,473 posts)
15. It's not a Civil War.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 12:41 PM
Jul 2023

Ukraine is not part of Russia. It WAS part of the USSR as a distinct Soviet Socialist Republic. It WAS a part of Imperial Russia.

Are Russia's actions in Georgia a Civil War? In Moldova?

Russia is playing itself, then.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
17. The Russian orthodox Slavs are fighting the Roman Catholic Slavs in the Eastern UKR Provinces.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 12:52 PM
Jul 2023

The very same regions and provinces and enemies that were in a civil war before the illegal Russian invasion…and now open assistance to the RC Slavs by one side and the RO Slavs the other, mercenaries included to spare Russian soldiers,…neo Nazis fighting on all sides including American mercenaries…it’s a continuing civil war put on a global hot plate.

The Russian army needs mercenaries?? No.

Hekate

(91,055 posts)
20. That's a bit garbled. If a country fights off an invader, it's NOT a civil war, no matter how much...
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:05 PM
Jul 2023

…DNA they share.

I really cannot tell what you are trying to say, if anything.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
21. Yes, it's a bit garbled, too much too condense without.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:08 PM
Jul 2023

Started as civil war, waged for years…lines frozen nursing negotiations…failed negotiations…now it’s a hot civil war…maybe world civil war?
Putin is as evil as tRump, why deploy massive expensive unreliable mercenary army payable in dollars and gold to anything but another’s civil war….when you have the Russian army! The entire military force of a superpower is NOT as incompetent as projected. And by army I include Air Force, Navy etc…where are they? Desperate for drones from Iran? Please.

I am raising these question, logically those are good questions.

maxsolomon

(33,473 posts)
24. the Donbas separatist "Civil War" was as Russia-manufactured
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:18 PM
Jul 2023

as the absurdities in Transnistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Without unbadged Russian soldiers it wouldn't have taken place.

Putin is reconstituting the Russian Empire. He is not defending Russia against the threats of the Azov Brigade or the 2 Ukrainian Revolutions. Those are pretenses.

So maybe you mean Internecine, since they're all Slavs, "neo-Nazi" or not.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
26. ...a few neos fighting on both sides is a minor point, but it's true...inflated minor point
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:24 PM
Jul 2023

by any side that cares to do so. It’s a fact…and so Putin has exploited the minor thing, it’s what evil does.

Putin, leader of the Russian Army, literally has the worlds largest Nazi mercenary army on contract for last year…literal Nazi Army so it’s clear who the devil is.

EndlessWire

(6,580 posts)
33. You can't change the characterization
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 03:36 PM
Jul 2023

of this war of aggression against Ukraine by declaring it a civil war based on basically the history of this country. Make no mistake, this "Special Military Operation" is a special war that Putin thought he could do to force Ukraine into becoming a puppet nation like Belarus.

Fortunately, Ukraine has a few friends, and they are receiving support to drive Russia out. Ukraine has shown a fierce determination to regain its territory. They do not intend to surrender one inch of territory to Putin. Putin is not going to rule the Black Sea, nor rule over grain shipments.

I am wondering if those that live in the Donbas and associated areas still think that they want to be part of Russia. Is it worth it to them to be part of this horrendous conflict?

This is not a civil war. Civil wars are between factions fighting amongst themselves. Regular wars are fighting between two nations over territory. These are very simple concepts.

Russia doesn't have enough soldiers to forgo hiring mercenaries, which it has tried to hire since the beginning. I don't think you have seen Russian babushkas out there fighting for Russia, like Ukraine has seen. Russian farmers aren't out there hauling off Ukrainian tanks. No, Russia is comfortably at home watching the bombing of their neighbor on TV. They vacation in Crimea, which they think now belongs to them. The only time they reacted was when Putin mobilized all those civilians in an effort to provide cannon fodder at the zero line. Then they fled, or were dragged off in forced conscription. Even the jails were utilized to provide manpower.

Russia is doing what it did in Moldova and Georgia, nibbling away at other countries territories. That's what Putin does. Only this time, after it took Crimea with nary a world reaction, it thought it could sweep in and take Ukraine. But, the entire country said no.

It is not a civil war. It's Russia against another country. Putin bit off more than it can chew. That's how you can characterize this war. And, it's a war that Putin can own.

sarisataka

(18,942 posts)
7. Seems like the modern version
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 11:54 AM
Jul 2023

Of 'unrestricted submarine warfare.

I understand it but will not cheer for such expansion affecting neutral nations.

cstanleytech

(26,365 posts)
9. Maybe it's to supply Ukraine with decommissioned navy vessels and let them use the US naval ports
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 12:12 PM
Jul 2023

we have in the in say Italy or Spain?

mitch96

(13,948 posts)
10. ruzzia attacks Ukrainian infrastructure (grain sales) and Ukraine attacks ruzzian infrastructure
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 12:15 PM
Jul 2023

OIL.
Who is gonna get hurt more?
m

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
11. The freighters have People onboard, not soldiers,,,wishing their horrible deaths is horrible.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 12:25 PM
Jul 2023

Oil and steel lost is meaningless compared to lives…most would agree??!

Torchlight

(3,463 posts)
22. What then is the practical alternative
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:09 PM
Jul 2023

that would prevent loss of life, and end the war, and compel Putin to withdraw his armed forced from soil foreign. All primary, efficient, and just goals "most would agree??!"

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
23. Truce, frozen front lines....UN blue helmet peacekeepers...elections in all the eastern regions
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:18 PM
Jul 2023

and Crimea…international and UN supervision…Force Peace.

Some of the weapons flooding in could go to the UN.

Torchlight

(3,463 posts)
25. Not practical. Putin rejected UN inspections in Crimea after his invasion.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:21 PM
Jul 2023

It does not follow he would allow it now. Only UN response to Crimean invasion was passing a non-binding resolution which did not compel Putin to withdraw.

sarisataka

(18,942 posts)
29. Who do you think is on the ships now?
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 01:42 PM
Jul 2023

This is not a warning to Russian navy vessels. They already know they are targets. Ukraine is alerting civilian ships they travel to Russian ports at their own peril.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
35. Next level thinking! Sail the massive freighters OIL tankers with hostages aboard! Brilliant!
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 04:07 PM
Jul 2023

No other option! Set them ablaze in the Sea, preferably near Russian tourists on the beach!! Can get them to clean up the massive pollution!

No other option!

sarisataka

(18,942 posts)
37. I don't think other countries will approve
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 04:11 PM
Jul 2023

Putin forcing civilian shields onto ships. Of course it could be done at gun point however Russia may find soon no ships willing to transport their goods.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
36. Isn't this an area subject to Freedom of Seas passage? Like the straights of Hormuz?
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 04:08 PM
Jul 2023

Also,…..The Russian Navy boasts 605 vessels, including 70 submarines, that can be deployed in the Black Sea, off the Ukrainian coast. While the Ukrainian fleet has just 38 ships, and no submarines.

sarisataka

(18,942 posts)
38. Somewhat different being a war zone but
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 04:25 PM
Jul 2023

Outside of territorial waters, yes freedom of navigation should apply.

For the most part Russia and Ukraine until Russia backed out of the grain agreement. As a response to the Russian action I can understand why Ukraine has made this announcement.

However do not condone threats to neutral shipping in the Black Sea, Straights of Hormuz, South China Sea or anywhere else.

ETA> the full strength of the Russian navy is a non factor. Only the Black Sea fleet can engage.

Russia would not pull its entire navy leaving them vulnerable everywhere else. Also Turkey is not permitting warships passage through the Bosphorus, as is their right by international treaty, so Russia cannot strengthen the Black Sea fleet even if they wanted.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
39. 70 subs to 0. 0 in any water.
Thu Jul 20, 2023, 06:39 PM
Jul 2023
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-military-comparison-1.6365115


Russia has almost 900,000 active military personnel to draw on in its war of aggression, versus Ukraine's standing military of around 200,000.
Ukraine has vastly fewer attacking aircraft — 146 versus Russia's 1,328 — and helicopters; just 42 versus 478.
The Russian tanks rumbling towards the capital, Kyiv, are part of an overall armoured corps of 31,000 vehicles, compared to Ukraine's 5,000.
The Russian Navy boasts 605 vessels, including 70 submarines, that can be deployed in the Black Sea, off the Ukrainian coast. While the Ukrainian fleet has just 38 ships, and no submarines.
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