Every day I marvel at how poor and middle class Republicans vote against their self-interests

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Last edited Tue Jan 17, 2012, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

I've read the studies showing that Republicans are people who are led by fears, who love authority, who don't feel comfortable unless there is an enemy. However, there's another school of thought about why people whose very life is precariously balancing on a high wire choose to vote for those who persistently destroy American life for the poor and middle class, and ensure they never get out of the hole. It is this: that poor and middle class Republicans don't like being made to feel stupid.

The argument kinda goes like this:

Republicans talk on the same level as people who don't have a great deal of education. They don't bother people with statistics, with numbers, and they engage in a good amount of name-calling. They also use a lot of "us versus them" (them being the enemy, of course), which makes the poor and middle class Republican feel important. The argument also poses that Democrats use statistics, numbers, and tend not to name call. Democrats tend to the label groups as the enemy far less than Republicans do. As a result, poor and middle class Republicans feel less important, and less intelligent when listening to Democrats, and think of them as elitist.

But this brings me to another question:

HOW did poor and middle class Republicans come to regard education as elitist? WHEN did education become something to be despised, rather than something to be strived for? WHY did ignorance become something to be proud of? I grew up in a family within which EDUCATION AND KNOWLEDGE were things to be sought after, admired, desired, ideals, not things to be envied and to hate someone for if they employed that intelligence.

WHY NOT HERE? Why must intelligence be hidden and relegated to a lower level? Why do poor and middle class Republicans feel that lack of education is desirable?

[nykym]

1. I think it is also a bit of this

penned most eloquently by John Dickinson: "...don't forget that most men without property would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich, than face the reality of being poor."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. Great quote, but I'm not sure I would include 'most men.' I'd say, 'stupid men' (and women) nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

89. But the problem is that not all of them are stupid. Many are even well educated, but

for some reason, they've bought into this fallacy that they, too, can be a Mitt Romney.

And as far as the larger argument goes, Jeff Sharlet put it well in his book called The Family, that somehow if one is wealthy, God has ordained it so. Somehow being rich is God's gift, and he has chosen a few to have all the wealth.

But what is fascinating to me is that these folks believe that they, too, are chosen by God to be wealthy even if they aren't. Their blessing will someday come and they will eventually be wealthy due to their faith. (I've witnessed this "prosperity theology" all the time in mega-churches.)

The other side to this sense of entitlement is that their battle with liberals/Democrats is really a battle between good and evil. They are good. We are evil. And therefore to win this battle at any cost is what is important. The MEANS by which they achieve this END doesn't matter: Lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery...It doesn't matter! That is why they are so willing to abandon their conservative principles and support Mitt Romney. That is why they don't care that Newt Gingrich, Mark Sanford, David Vitter committed adultery. The larger battle is between them and us. So, whatever they have to do to defeat us, God has already ordained that they do so. The MEANS don't matter. Only the END!

Everyone really should read Tom Frank's "What the Matter With Kansas" if not already done so.

http://tcfrank.com/books/whats-the-matter-with-kansas/

and....

Jeff Sharlet's "The Family":

http://www.harpercollins.com/books/?isbn=9780060559793

These two books, along with John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" are critical reading for trying to understand the psyche of a conservative's (read: authoritarian) mindset.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

94. I have John Dean's book, Conservatives Without Conscience, and it is spectacular! I couldn't put it

down.

It looks like I'm going to have to order The Family to get a better insight into these right wing Christians who, in my view, personify something more akin to evil (if such a thing exists), than holiness.

The thing that gets to me is that the religious are supposed to believe in a higher power, try to do good, try to be benevolent, try to be kind, try to help those who suffer the most. Instead, their deeds and words reflect hatred, authoritarian attitudes, a love of punishing, a cruel streak from here to there which would make the Marquis de Sade look like Bambi. How do these people reconcile this with what they're supposed to believe? They're the biggest hypocrites.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

99. Thanks for helping me with the right book title. "Conscience of a Conservative" was the book

that he wrote with Barry Goldwater, and sometimes I get the titles mixed up.

At any rate, great book. Get "The Family" because a real eyeliner and leads to great insight on how these folks seem to be o.k. with their hypocrisy. The *means* for achieving power and authority is not important. That's why they can explain away all the adultery, greed, cheating, and so on. God has already ordained them to be leaders and therefore their behavior is excused.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

101. No, thank you for directing me to The Family. And any others like that.

Anything that offers an explanation to the beserk thinking of these people is definitely worth reading.

[leftyohiolib]

22. maybe that has alot to do with it

they think republicans are rich and if the dems just got out of the way i could get rich too.

[Fumesucker]

2. Both sides tend to stereotype the other..

It doesn't help that there are hundreds of radio stations and thousands of programs kicking out right wing propaganda and stereotyping the other side 24/7/365, there really isn't anything quite to that level on the left that I'm aware of.

When all you hear is one side it's really hard not to get taken in by propaganda.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. I'm not so sure. I got quite close to a right wingnut, and he really has no ability to discuss

issues. He goes mute and/or gets angry when it comes to discussing issues that involve statistics, actual dollars and cents, and numbers.

[Fumesucker]

21. I thought that was you..

I remember you talking about your dating experience a while back.

Functional innumeracy is even more common than functional illiteracy in the US.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Yes, that was me. And what flips me out is their unwillingness to even discuss anything that

borders on facts. It's a threat to them. I can't figure out if they feel it's a trick. I do recall him saying that there's "no reason" to tell the truth to children about U.S. history, because it will make them anti-American. They adore censorship.

[hfojvt]

62. If I remember though, he was not really middle class

More like upper middle class. If a person is in the 70th to 90th percentile then generally Republicans will do better for him than Democrats will - that is, they will give him a bigger tax cut.

As far as left vs. right though, I notice here on DU that discussions of facts do not get much traction. Numbers seem to bore the left too, whereas name-calling draws many more participants.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. Where do you place yourself on the political spectrum? nt

[hfojvt]

82. political compass says -6.12, -1.59

I see myself as more of a moderate, becuase I don't buy who whole Jets vs. Sharks divide. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/122

Nor do I insist on socialism or an end to the capitalist system.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

85. Ok. nt

[Mopar151]

88. A combination of guilt, shame, and wounded pride

Makes the non-functioning, non-reasoning resent theirfunctioning, reasoning equals. Throw in some misinformation from the right, and the dis-functional start behaving like cornered animals.

[Bigmack]

3. Anti-intellectual roots run deep in this country...

"Anti-Intellectualism in American Life" by Hofstadter

A review..."Unfortunately, America's practical culture has never embraced intellectuals. The intellectuals' education and expertise are viewed as a form of power or privilege. Intellectuals are seen as a small arrogant elite who are pretentious, conceited, snobbish. Geniuses' are described as eccentric, and their talents dismissed as mere cleverness. Their cultured view is seen as impractical, and their sophistication as ineffectual. Their emphasis on knowledge and education is viewed as subversive, and it threatens to produce social decadence.

Instead, the anti-intellectuals believe that the plain sense of the common man is altogether adequate and superior to formal knowledge and expertise from schools. The truths of the heart, experience, and old-fashioned principles of religion, character, instinct, and morality are more reliable guides to life than education. After all, we idolize the self-made man in America."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. Thank you for posting this. Pathetic, though, isn't it? The upholding of ignorance as the ideal.

Very sad statement about our country.

[kctim]

4. And you will continue to "marvel"

for as long as you wrongly believe it is YOU who knows what is in THEIR best interest.

It's not about your opinions on education, it's about their views on individual rights and freedoms. Which so happens to also be why the far-left hates us moderate Dems.

[hifiguy]

13. Well, I guess that they have

every right to be as ignorant and uneducated as they wish in pursuit of their "liberty" to be serfs to the economic royalists. Ignorant can be fixed, but stupid is forever. The question remains why these people are, in economic terms, paying arsonists to burn down their houses.

I came from a working class background and the value of education was pounded into my head by both of my parents from a very young age. Those who don't value education are, IMO, beneath contempt.

[kctim]

25. Really depends who is defining

'ignorance' and 'educated,' doesn't it? The far-left claims "serfs to economic royalists" and the far-right claims "slaves to government tyranny." Why? Because both sides use their personal opinions of what they believe others should believe, as their starting point.

Differing views, values and beliefs are not dictated by a formal education as laid out by one side. They are deeply personal and the sooner people respect that, the sooner we can all work together.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Very pretty, but 1 out of 6 Americans living in poverty, is not a state of mind or an opinion. nt

[newspeak]

65. you mean the "far left"

that actually believe in the democratic platform-that's the old democratic platform. Or the "far left" that idealistically believes in the rule of law?

The right has a very different view of freedom. It seems that their "fear" can get them to believe in anything, including the patriot act and any other policy that takes that freedom away. Of course, as long as their masters allow them to hold their guns, they must think they are safe.

During the presidential election, I got a call from the other side. The woman was southern and she kept telling me that she was afraid if Obama got elected. I asked her why would she be afraid of him getting elected? She just knew he was not a "good man." I asked her was it because he was black. Oh, no, no, it's not because he's black, but he shouldn't be trusted. Fear is what they use. Fear of the unknown, fear of being harmed, fear of someone is getting something for free, fear of having to pay. And the repugs use the fear card all of the time. They know their constituency well. that's why they don't really have to lay out any plan to heal the economy, all they have to do is use fear against immigrants, against gays, against those who don't believe like they do, against people in other countries (potential enemies), against labor (those people are costing you a slave wage job) and against those who are in poverty or less fortunate.

and the others who are repugs and not fearful, are those who enjoy the fruits of deregulation, greed, and make big money on other peoples' fears.

And the right has had a mega sounding board for over thirty years. People like limpballs have been spouting the envy, fear bullshite for a long time.

[Wind Dancer]

77. +1

[Sarah Ibarruri]

116. Exactly! Nazi Germany backed Hitler because they believed the propaganda and fear

The people's priorities and their beliefs became that Jews, gays, gypsies, and the disabled had destroyed their country and needed to be done away with.

That's not that dissimilar to what Repukes do here in the U.S., distract the gullible and fear-filled into believing that abortion is *THE* important issue, that gay marriage is *THE* important issue, that being anti-Communist is *THE* real issue. That way they'll keep them from focusing on the REAL issue, which is that the 1% controlling this country and impoverishing the rest.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. I agree. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Please elaborate. nt

[kctim]

27. Are people who

place individual rights and freedoms ahead of statistics and numbers, "voting against their own best interests?"

Should we use government to force them to support our views OR should we respect their views and work with them in order to form 'a more perfect union?'

All the two sides are doing now is claiming the other is "voting against their own best interests" simply because they believe differently.
It's not working.

[hifiguy]

40. There is an actual human being

that is hungry, homeless, in need of medical care or otherwise hurting behind each and every one of those "statistics and numbers." Most here realize that fact.

Protecting the "liberty" of the haves and the have-mores to exploit, ignore, abuse and marginalize those very real human beings in the name of their "rights and freedoms" is rhetoric out of Ayn Rand's dystopian nightmares and not worthy of anyone who calls themselves progressive or liberal.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. Absolutely! You explained it much better than I ever could've. nt

[kctim]

86. So you are saying

that taking care of those 'statistics and numbers' the way YOU believe is right, trumps the individual rights and freedoms of all? You do realize that those who disagree with you are also "actual human beings," right?

Resorting to weak haves vs have not arguments is not working. Neither is screaming Ayn Rand anytime somebody mentions individual rights and freedoms. In fact, the vast majority of us Democrats are not Randians, progressives or liberals, we are moderates who believe in a balance between government and individual rights.
So, is the answer to keep going as we are and get nothing done OR is it to respect ALL views and work together?

[hifiguy]

91. I am more than willing to infringe on the "rights"

of some asshole like Mitt Romney or Lloyd Blankfein to have as much money as he can swindle out of the system in order to take care of those in need and those they have victimized.

That much you have correct.

No one has the "liberty" or a "right," in a decent society, to callously disregard the suffering of their fellow human beings while sitting atop a vast pile of cash, much of which is stashed offshore, and lighting their cigars with $100 bills while virtually pissing on the rest of the country. Call it what you will. I, and the Scandinavians and Germans, call it social democracy.

And you, with a straight face, call yourself a Democrat??

[kctim]

103. People with wealth

are NOT who we are talking about here. We are talking about the rank and file who hold different beliefs on some issues. THEY are the ones who we have to work with.
They are not sitting atop vast piles of cash and they are not uneducated morons simply because they hold different values and beliefs than you or because they have different solutions.

I hate to break it to you, but you are NOT in a social democracy, you are in a representative republic that was founded on the belief that individual rights are what defines a "decent society."

And yes, I am a Democrat, a moderate Democrat just like the vast majority of the Party.

[hifiguy]

104. See my post #93. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

115. If we are indeed in a representative republic, there's no representation if the 1%

have the lion's share of control over politicians, and the laws that are passed benefit primarily the 1%.

So where's that representative republic you are referring to?

[kctim]

127. There is not 'if' about it, we are indeed a representative republic

and there is a pretty cool document that explains us as being one.

Where is it at? It starts at the ballot box and the ONLY way to fix it is by for us The People. A divided vote of 50 or 60 million does nothing but keep the status quo, a united vote of 100+ million votes and change will come. That is why I believe we have to work together.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

128. That document is quite lovely, but if the 1% is ruling (which it is) something has to CHANGE

So spare me your lovely document stories. The 1% is in charge here and that has got to stop.

[kctim]

130. I respect your opinion

And please, by all means please keep trying to convince the thousands of OWS types who support your opinion and join in your fight.
As for me, I will keep trying to unite the millions and millions who want to work together and make the country better for ALL.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

131. Fine, but expect me to stand against symbols being used to protect the 1%,

and steal from the rest.

I'll push forward to expose reality.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. Placing the rich and corporations before citizens is NOT protecting rights and freedoms

It takes freedoms away from citizens, and fully gives that power to the mega-rich and corporations.

I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to unless you get more specific than that.

[kctim]

87. The people you are condemning in your post

believe placing the government before citizens is NOT protecting rights and freedoms. It takes freedoms away from citizens and fully gives that power to the government.
Government is the ONLY entity with the power to do this.

Do we continue making over generalizations and fighting against each other because of our differing beliefs and values? OR do we work towards respecting the simple fact that we ALL have the right to our own beliefs and values?
If your answer is the former and you believe in lockstep thinking, then good OP.

[hifiguy]

93. One slight difference you willfully overlook:

In a democratic republic such as the US, the people should have control over the goverment. It is, or was, before the 1% essentially bought the government, accountable to the populace. Private power is accountable to no one. The only countervailing power to vast accumulations of private wealth and privilege is a government which genuinely represents all the people, not merely the wealthiest.

"“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt

[kctim]

106. Interesting that you put 'all' in bold

How do you propose to "genuinely represent ALL the people' if you call them uneducated morons and do not respect their values and beliefs? How are we representing ALL by mandating what they believe, whom they should care about and how they should live?
We can't, which is why, IMO, we should be working together against whomever is abusing the power, government or corporations.

You seem stuck on this 99% vs the 1% nonsense and that the wealthy are all that stands in your way. You are wrong, and you will continue to be wrong as long as half the country keeps believing that it is government who is overreaching.

[hifiguy]

107. Not at all. A couple of personal friends are in the 1%

and they are decent people who started and built their own businesses honestly, making excellent products and selling them for a fair price. The real heavy hitters - the health industry, pharma, telecom, insurance and financial tycoons - are in the top .01% or even higher. By and large those people, such as Romney and Blankfein, make their money by what amounts to fraud or swindle, whether it is legally defined as such or not. Not all, but most. The MIC makes its money by bribery, stirring fears of the other through controlled reichwing politicians and thus raiding the public treasury.

Your silence in the face of FDR's quote about fascism being government owned by private interests is telling.

People who do not use logic reason are fools, if not actual idiots. Unless someone is capable of being persuaded by objective and extrinsic evidence, there is no point in engaging in discussion with them. As Thomas Paine memorably said, arguing with one who has abandoned reason is like administering medicine to the dead. And a significant percentage of the US populace wouldn't know logic if it bit them in the ass. Fundamentalist religion and thirty-years of dumbing down via the corporate media are the primary culprits, IMO. As I said earlier, ignorance can be cured, but stupid is forever.

[newspeak]

69. you mean individual freedom like pro-choice?

It seems they think individual freedom only means the right to bear arms. I didn't see them in the streets when the patriot act was enacted. Or when we found out about illegal wire tapping.

[kctim]

90. Yes, like REAL pro-choice though

Not this faux pro-choice crap that both sides have that picks and chooses what we deserve to have a choice on.

Even if what you say was true, is the answer to ignore their beliefs and call them uneducated and dumb? I do not believe it is, which is why I actually speak with them so that I can understand where they are coming from and work from there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

117. Bullshit beliefs such as that abortion is the primary issue is bullshit

meant to keep people busy hating that, and not focusing on the real issue - the theft of our country by the 1%.

Same shit happened in Nazi Germany. The people were focusing on non-issues that were turned into an issue by the conservatives there. For example, that Jews had stolen their country.

[kctim]

120. I was referring to actually being pro-choice, not being pro-abortion

Re: abortion though, you could make it illegal and half the country still wouldn't agree with you that the "real" issue is the 1% and not government infringement. And to many of them, what another person legally earns is a non-issue that has been turned into an issue for political purposes.

[newspeak]

122. hitler outlawed abortion

In my environmental science class in the late eighties, we read writings at the time from people like liddy, bailey, buchanan. And the writings at the time was the argument for banning abortion, not for the sanctity of potential life, not for the well being of the woman; no, it was for the argument that the whites in the future were going to be the minority. And, I remember my professor stating that if they outlaw abortion, they will go after birth control.

Sure enough, we've got some of these cretins discussing banning birth control.

So, tell me how a person can spout BS about "freedom" when they apparently enjoy that authoritarian persona?

It seems that the present goal of the repugs is to finally kill any social program that helps the people and sell us outright to any and all corporations, including foreign ones. And when they're done doing that, just see how much more power those corporations will have over the people, how much more we will have to pay for shitty services, and how much more corruption there will be. It has taken the right over thirty years to get a segment of the population to believe that government is evil. We are the government; unless we give that right away, especially to monied interests.

[kctim]

126. He also did away with private ownership of weapons

So, how can a person spout BS about "freedom" when they apparently enjoy that authoritarian persona? The same way another person can do it concerning the 2nd Amendment, smoking, social programs etc... By using their personal beliefs to pick and choose freedoms to defend instead of defending all freedoms.

In both cases, individual freedoms are trumped by authority (government) in order to force others to support things against their will. Whether it is govt that is evil or corps that are evil, is moot. We have to work together as The People or nothing is going to change. In fact, it is only going to get worse.

[cthulu2016]

5. Against what you THINK their self-interests are

It is hard to put a dollar value on the psychological identification with state authority, the psychological identification with the rich, the preservation of feelings of persecution for being white or christian, the reinforcement of feelings of superiority for being white or christian...

These things have value to these dumbass voters.

That they value these thing more highly than their material well-being seems odd to you and me, but I cannot say they are miscalculating.

Only they can say what being the canon-fodder of reaction is worth to them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. Yes, but in all honesty, they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. A sign of stupidity.

Psychological identification by someone, that will cause that same person's lifestyle (and that of his/her family to suffer), particularly when it's psychological identification with entities that seek to do harm to the suffering, is just frikkin' stupid.

[WI_DEM]

8. unfortunately a lot of them vote against their own interests because they buy the GOP line about

illegals and minorities stealing their jobs.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

23. That's part of what they adore: having an enemy. nt

[stillwaiting]

9. Tree of knowledge is bad. Bad, I say!

The serpent tricked Eve, and Eve tricked Adam. Woman bad too!

Eve NEVER should have sought to know anything. It wasn't her place.

The elite of old knew how to craft a myth to assault the masses with that's for sure, and it's worked marvelously (for them).

Their aversion to knowledge and learning is deep, instinctual, and unwavering. It was purposefully inculcated in them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. It is an aversion, but NOT all countries feel or think this way. That's why I'm amazed at these

people.

[MicaelS]

12. Go read "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life"

And you'll get your questions answered vis-a-vis education.

BUT, there's also the question of social values vs. economic values. One conservative friend has told me:

"There's a lot of people in this country who are economic liberal but socially conservative.

They're economically liberal because they believe in helping the poor. They oppose rapacious big business, and Neocons who advocate eternal war.

BUT...they're socially conservative because of strong religious faith. They will NEVER accept Atheism, Homosexuality and Abortion as being socially or morally acceptable, PERIOD.

As long as the Democratic Party continues to champion these three issues the Democratic Party will NEVER be accepted by social conservatives. If the Democratic Party would jettison these three issues, and well as advocating Gun Control, the Democratic Party would win every election.

They are not going to sell out their deeply held religious faith which is centerpiece of their lives for economics."

That is pretty much word for word.

[opihimoimoi]

15. Why...What are the reasons? who noes these daze;...me thinks its laziness coupled with

congentital traits....

There has to be reasons for this anamoly

[BeHereNow]

17. Pitiful really... and scary in the implications for the future.

The ignorance and "proud of it" swell
has me deeply concerned.
It has for years and I hate to see where it
will lead us.
BHN

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Yup. What concerns me too is that this anti-education philosophy seems to run deep nt

[BeHereNow]

38. Pol Pot killed off people who wore glasses because they were educated.

Pol Pot perceived educated people as a threat...
I see the same anti-intellectualism rising here in America.
http://www.yale.edu/cgp/

I take the signs very seriously.
The bat shit crazy school district that just
banned "The Tempest" in Arizona?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ethnic-studies-book-ban-arizona-include-shakespeare-tempest-article-1.1007105
I mean WTF is going on in this country?
BHN

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. Yes, same anti-intellectualism. The glorification of ignorance by the right wing is astounding.

And you're right, this is directly related to the destruction by right wingers of the public school system, a project they've undertaken since before I was in high school.

Right wingers bash everything related to education: schools, teachers, books, colleges, universities, ideas, higher processing, everything. There's nothing right wingers will leave alone. If it has to do with education, by golly, they'll trash it.

This trend is sick. And I don't know another country where this goes on, except perhaps third world nations.

[Mr Dixon]

18. simple

they think one day they will be in the 1% club, news flash they will not unless they a serving the rich, shining shoes or washing dishes

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. The American Dream? Amazing. More like The American Nightmare is what they believe in. nt

[NNN0LHI]

26. Bad news. Those weren't all Republicans who voted for Reagan twice

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. Maybe so, but the bulk of those who vote Republican, ARE Republican. nt

[libinnyandia]

28. Google: Is Something Really Wrong With Kansas?

The article provides an interesting take on the issue. In many ways I'm more concerned that so many low income people don't vote, which the GOP promotes.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. This is true. That's why Repukes block the black vote, because these are far more aware of reality

than white Republican poor and white Republican middle class.

[taught_me_patience]

29. How about old people that vote republican?

It was the old people who swung the election for the teabaggers in 2010.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/07/weekinreview/20101107-detailed-exitpolls.html?ref=weekinreview

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. True. I never blame old people, though, because old people have a miserably scary life in the U.S.

They live in fear. I certainly don't blame older people whose mental faculties are less than they should be. Younger people, though, I don't hold to the same standard. They should know better.

[taught_me_patience]

123. Maybe middle class and poor live in fear too.

Scared the world is passing them by and envious of others that are able to adapt and flourish.

[newspeak]

124. well, just viewing my in laws

in a way, they still believe some of the BS the media puts out. I think many seniors still trust the media not to lie. Also, some older people, there's more prejudice. It was at one time an accepted belief, and some, still cling to the white supremacy BS.

I think some still have the perception of the "old" repug party. Just like some of us, me included, still embrace the old democratic platform, even though the parties are changing (I won't say evolving, more like devolving).

Also, there are many seniors who are more vulnerable, and can be persuaded by that vulnerability with fear-death panels, ending SS (of course not going to tell you they want their corrupt friends to have that too).

[The2ndWheel]

31. They're either self interests or they're not

They may be voting against your interpretation of what their self interests should be based on criteria that you defined, but then that's just them voting against your self interests.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. Not really. They vote in favor of corporate interests and those of the wealthy, neither of which

they are, neither of which helps them.

[ZombieHorde]

36. Most American voters vote against their self interest.

I know I do.

[just1voice]

41. There's no big mystery, it IS simply because they are stupid asses

I know you're asking why they are stupid asses but the answers to that are as varied as the stupid asses are. Some are fearful of learning, some are racists, some are abused, some are brainwashed by propaganda, some are pathological liars, etc... The one common trait is that repukes do not learn from actual information regardless of the reasons why.

It's a hard idea to comprehend, that people who appear to be mentally functional are not but that is indeed the case. I think sometime in the near future our corrupted, for-profit mental health care system will start diagnosing people incapable of learning with appropriately named illnesses and then finally there will be some help for them. Until then, repukes will remain the sick tools of their manipulators.

Alan Grayson said it a while back "The Right Wing Consists of the Liars and the Gullibles".

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. That's how I see it, but the mega-wealthy push this idea of anti-intellectualism until the

feeble-minded Republicans really see it as a positive thing, and uphold ignorance above all things.

[DeathToTheOil]

42. Great article

Do you have a link?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. No article, really. It's just my observations of Republicans, based on my observations of them

Wish there were an article about this though.

[postatomic]

43. Republicans vote with their "Black Heart" and not their Brain

Intelligence isn't even in the mix here. It's all about single issues. Religion, Anti-Gay, Abortion, Guns, and Rocky Road Ice Cream.

They'll sell their soul to protect (insert issue here).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. They vote without using their brain. nt

[spanone]

49. i marvel at how they see the right wing politicians as the good guys....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. I know. It's like thinking up is down, and bad is good. All screwed up. nt

[ErikJ]

51. A working American voting Republicon is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

56. It is. Voting against one's own self interests is just plain stupid. nt

[ErikJ]

52. Large family-the math dummies are now Republicon

8 kids, 3 very good GPA's and 5 bad/average. We 3 are now Liberals and the other 5 are all RW extremists.

I think they were hooked by the Pro-life/evangelical connection. The rest RW propaganda has been slowly brainwashed into them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. The 5 with bad grades are right wing extremists?

That's an interesting topic for discussion!!

I also wonder who becomes an obsessed evangelical and who does not.

[young_at_heart]

53. The book, "What's the Matter with Kansas"? explains this craziness

By focusing attention on cultural issues, the Conservatives not only distract their followers from economic concerns, they remove capitalism itself as an issue. The key to this problem is that many of these voters have been convinced that social issues are more important than economic ones.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. You're right. Which is why Occupy is so important - it brings capitalism into discussion

Conservatives work overtime to hide the real reasons this country is doing so badly.

[Honeycombe8]

57. No, they don't.

You're thinking is that their ONLY interest is economical. Since the Republicans are offering social reforms and other things, no doubt those things are in the Republican middle class interest, as well. Then there's freedom from the federal government...regulations, requirements, etc. That is appealing to their sense of independence. Their thinking is that they'd rather be poor and free than a little richer and enslaved by the government.

It's the same thing with wealthy liberals. All those liberal movie stars....they're very wealthy, yet they, and some mega--wealthy people, like Buffet, vote against their financial interests when they vote for Democrats. So clearly they have OTHER interests that they care as much about if not more. Freedom from wacko religious nuts who want to constrain their creativity, cut off funding for the arts and PBS, denying gays full rights, maybe anti-semitism, etc.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

58. "Freedom from federal government" is a propaganda tactic, and not based on reality

It's right wing propaganda meant to keep the right wing poor and middle class happy thinking that theirs is the best of all possible worlds, and that the govt is their enemy, and NOT corporations.

It's all more right wing propaganda bullshit.

Which again, leads us to poor and middle class Republicans voting stupidly against their self-interests, a good lifestyle, and FOR corporations. They swallow the right wing Kool-Aid like it's a delicious concoction and they aren't educated enough to know the difference between bs propaganda and reality.

[Honeycombe8]

59. That's what YOU think. That's not what THEY think.

You keep talking about voting against their self-interest. I'm just telling you that in their way of thinking, they are clear on some of the issues, as clear as you are, but they view it differently. You may view gays getting married as civil rights. THEY view it as the federal government forcing them to accept an unnatural thing that affects the moral fiber of the society.

I would view a particular EPA reg as necessary to preserve the air and quality of life. They might view that same reg as costing their employer money, which means the company will hire fewer employees.

Some things are propaganda. But on some things, they are clear on the specifics, but view it differently.

I'd say the propaganda parts are the "we wanna make taxes simpler and fairer for everyone." They tend to believe their leaders when they say that. I know better. You know better.

Some members of my family are far right wackos (altho I don't call them that to their faces). They tend to view all politicians with skepticism, and know they all lie. But they are clear on their wacko beliefs, which is how I described them above.

They are generally filled with hatred - yes, hatred - for liberal things and ideas. It's an automatic thing with them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

60. I will never forget a PBS documentary I saw once which dealt with the homeless and their problems

in an attempt to bring to the fore the difficulties encountered by the homeless, and the need to address the problems rather than sweep them under the table. The folks that did the documentary actually went out on the streets and spoke to the homeless they found.

One particular man was emaciated, his hair looked like it was falling out from either illness or malnutrition, he was very dirty, and he had almost no teeth left. He looked like he was not long for this world.

When he was asked if he received any help, he responded something to the effect that he would never want welfare, and that he didn't respect anyone who accepted welfare. Typical Repuke party line spewing.

This is precisely the sort of right wing thinking corporations and the mega-rich want the poor to have: welfare and benefits for the rich and corporations, and nothing for the rest. Just a lifetime of lowly paid work, illness and a miserable life leading to an early death.

This form of thinking is nefarious at best, and a detriment to those who believe this propaganda. Some might call it a form of mental illness.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

61. And by the way, the Ayn Randish form of thinking is bullshit propaganda, beloved by corporations

and the mega-rich. I wanted to make that point, because you might well be one of the legions of Rand fans.

[KamaAina]

63. Back in college, we called them "Randroids"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. Randroids is an ideal name for them. Randroids worship at the Church of Ayn Rand,

a woman who made no sense, whose books were poorly written, whose ideas are nefarious, and whose personal life made her the poster child of amorality. Aside from that, she was cool! :-P

I would like to know how she became well-known. Must've been her nefarious ideology of the winner takes all. That must appeal to sociopaths.

[newspeak]

79. it seems that little boots

increased federal government where it counts, when it comes to their freedoms. Y'all know freedom isn't free Isn't that what the the grand shyster basically told his followers?

[NuttyFluffers]

64. in the land of snap judgments: emotions trump thought, style over substance.

in a land with little time, you then have to rely on snap judgments.

now... how do you get a society of wage earners to feel pressed for time?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Pressed for time? nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

72. I think what the other poster is referring to

is keeping people so busy they don't have time to follow the news, think too much about politics, etc. It helps the Republicans too that keeping people really busy also helps them on Election Day too, which, amazingly, isn't a mandatory holiday for everybody yet.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

74. That's true. Americans are so much busier and work so much harder than in Europe,

plus they don't have much social contact, as in other countries, so their information comes from the mass media, which represents corporate interests and not those of the people. Not good.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

70. The Republicans have redefined "elitism"

as anybody whom is (or is perceived to be) smarter than they are and those "pointy-headed intellectuals" sitting in their ivory towers of academia are the ones whom have become the scapegoats for any and all of society's social ills, which is a political "gold mine" for Republicans because it helps take the focus off of their elitism and that of their contributors (i.e. Wall Street). Plus, the more ignorant people are, the less likely they'll understand what the Republicans are doing and are more likely to fall for their BS.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

84. Exactly! Repukes have perfected the propaganda that ignorance is something to strive for. nt

[hunter]

71. Racism seems to have a lot to do with it.

When a white racist taxpayer sees that most of the kids in public schools are brown, they suddenly become unwilling to support public education, even to the detriment of their own children's schools.

From the racist perspective it's not the lack of support that's killing their public schools, it's all those brown kids. The covert messages of the white republican candidate, to cut taxes because they are mostly going to support those "others," appeals greatly to this sort of voter.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

83. You make a very good point, and the biggest ideals of the GOP are based on racism,

sexism, a multitude of other ugly isms, and gay bashing.

You're right that the moment these people see dark-skinned kids, they see them as 'others.'

[LynneSin]

73. Simple - it's the 3-Gs

Gods, Gays and Guns

Alot of these people come from rural parts of the state where it's ingrained into them that if you vote for liberals you'll vote against God, you'll vote to allow Gays to take over the country and you'll vote to have your guns taken away from you.

Thing is this, it's a lie - it's all a lie to scare these voters. Now these voters will put the 3Gs ahead of things that should be more important to them like finding a good job, paying for their healthcare and making sure their kids get a good education. It's pretty sad to think that the 3Gs are way more important than having a good standard of life.

Because honestly when you think about it - most democrats are also christians, which means they believe in God too. Gays are just like the rest of us and aren't trying to convert the country, just have equal rights. And you'd be hardpress to find a democrat who wants to take guns away from law-abiding citizens.

The republicans have the fear message wrapped up with the 3-Gs and they've been doing it now for generations because trust me, growing up in rural Pennsylvania I remember hearing that message 30 years ago.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. How did you avoid having that message ingrained in your mind?

It must not be easy when one is surrounded by people who hold such tunnel-vision and will make stupid-ass decisions that will have deleterious effects on their lives and those of their families, all because they are in love with some bullshit propaganda.

[mstinamotorcity]

75. Well you should not be surprised

why showing any form of intellegence is not the Repug way. I mean they just can't have Smart people running for the Presidency. Then they will never have a chance!!!!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

76. This is true. :) nt

[booley]

78. I think it has more to do with values

Conservatives have different priorities about what values are important.

It's not that cons are necessarily against education but education has to fall in line with their values.

Hence why there are so many conservative private schools and colleges like oral roberts and Liberty and why cons love private schools.

Yes one can say that Liberal institutions are more open to opposing ideas BUT that's because Liberals hold open mindedness itself as an important value (at least in theory)

Republicans as a party know how to feed and reinforce these values. OF course adding fear to the mix can help this. People will respond when they feel their cherished values and institutions are under threat (and lets be honest Liberals are no different in this regard. Otherwise how to explain Wisconsin and Walker's recall?)

While what you say has some merit in a case by case basis, I think it misses the over all picture.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

81. Everyone has priorities. Doesn't mean they're good priorities. Even pedophiles have priorities.

Conservatives have different priorities from liberals, yes, and consistently these "priorities" end up hurting the most needy, the poorest, the most helpless, the elderly, the ill, the disabled, etc.

Conservatives' priorities lead them to vote for the most heinous, selfish bastards on the planet, who end up damaging our country, enriching the richest, and impoverishing the rest.

They have no sense, don't base these on education or facts, and are infantile in their view of life.

This idea that everyone's priorities must be considered good and respected, is misguided and foolish.

[booley]

110. It's not priorities

It's not even about facts or education. Even when both liberals and cons acknowledge the same facts they often come up with very different interpretations. (and Liberals are no less capable of being misinformed then anyone else) While going to college can make someone more Liberal, there are many highly educated Conservatives. (Indeed that's the point of conservative colleges.. to ensure that students remain conservative)

This is about values. I mention "priorities" because we share these values but we place different importances and interpretations on them.

For instance the idea that morality is rewarded. So doing good should see one prosper and being bad should consequently be punished. We all believe this to some extent. Post a story about how someone was punished for doing the right thing or did wrong but got away with it, and there would be responses filled with moral outrage. And this occurs on both sides.

But conservatives place such a high regard for this value that they believe that this means the rich, who are clearly prosperous, must also be moral. And the poor, who are clearly struggling, must be immoral. While individual exceptions may occur, in the conservative mind the over all truth of this remains.

Haven't you heard the term punishing the successful" when it comes to taxes for instance? I am sure you have. This isn't just propaganda. It's a meme to reinforce this interpretation that morality means material success. You talk about the selfish hurting the poor and helpless. But to a conservative, it's the morally just not being taken advantage of by the greedy and lazy who seek to enrich themselves on another's work.

Yes you disagree that is what is actually happening. As do I. But we don't share the conservative world view. And no I don't think "everyone's priorities must be considered good and respected". But then I never claimed that in my argument so lets put that straw man aside.

My point here is that stereotyping cons as "dumb" or "anti-intellectual" may sound good and may even be right to an extent, it does nothing to explain WHY they think like they do, much less how to counter it. Indeed, it feeds into and strengthens their resolve to believe what they do.

While Liberals have been making fun of Conservatives, Conservatives have been working for decades to make people see things their way. If we want to change that, we need to first understand what's going on.

[newspeak]

125. yeah, well in my philosophy class

we studied various belief systems. When it came to polytheism, the "christian" students folded their arms and told the teacher they didn't want to participate in the discussion. He stated that he wasn't asking them to believe in it, we were just studying it as a form of belief. Nope, they walked out of the class. Now, just how close minded do you have to be? There was no proselytizing like some christians like to do, it was just a class discussing belief systems.

And, I've seen it more than once, instead of discussing something, they walk away, sometimes giving one last shot. Like the woman who shrugged and told me "well that's war", when we were bombing Iraq and killing civilians. As long as it's not her family, apparently, who cares.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. The Dems no longer know how to appeal to working-class people

They've become yuppified. When we get people on a Democratic message board (or Democratic politicians) slamming unions or buying into the Republicanites' worldview that government is bad and tax cuts are good and corporate globalization is good, so that Americans will just have to accept a lower standard of living, who is really speaking for the working class?

No one.

I would be willing to bet that more working class and poor people don't vote at all than vote Republican.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

95. You think so? I wish I could believe that. :( nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

108. It would be interesting to find out exactly who the 50% who don't vote are

But I bet that a lot of them are people who think they're screwed no matter who's in charge.

[Populist_Prole]

121. That's what kept me changing my party for affiliation so long

I agree about the yuppification thing. Really accellerated during the 3rd-way 90'.

Now the GOP has become so bat-shit crazy over the past several years, I just HAD to leave.

[ClassWarrior]

96. It's not a mystery. "Values" trump "interests" for many voters now.

A few books that may help enlighten...

"Don't Think of an Elephant" and/or "Thinking Points" by George Lakoff

"Conservatives Without Conscience" by John Dean

NGU.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

102. Thanks! I hadn't heard of Don't Think of an Elephant, but I just read a review on it, and it seems

an excellent book. Will order it.

I had heard of Thinking Points but will now order it too. Thanks!

[booley]

111. Moral Politics is also good

also by George Lakoff

In psychology, fulfilling an emotional need can be just as important and sometimes more so then fulfilling a physical tangible need.

[ClassWarrior]

112. Oooh... that's the big one. I have started "Metaphors We Live By"...

...which is fascinating. But it's very complex, so it's a challenging read.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

113. Glad to help, Sarah. "Elephant" is a pretty easy read. It's essentially...

...10 articles by Lakoff that have been collected into a book. But it makes a great primer on Lakoffian political framing.

Peace!

NGU.

[MNBrewer]

97. Opiate

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

100. For the most part.

I don't consider all religions to be identical. For example, the Quakers and the Buddhists are a far cry from the Bible-banging, envangelical perverts of the GOP.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

98. By the way, I seem to have a fan base of Repigs. If you do a search on the Internet for

any sentence in this original post, you will find them discussing it. The poor little rats are angry that I call them what they are.

It's such a pleasure to know they're not allowed on DU, at least not for long. If they join DU, they have to remain silent. The moment they subscribe and spew their venom, they get punted back to their hellhole where they can fester their little black hearts out.

[Zorra]

105. Yes. It is truly unbelievable. nt

[graywarrior]

109. You mean.....?

[arely staircase]

114. corporate media hegemony

the mass media reflects the values of the ruling class - many of which are adopted as normal by a large number of the working class. see gramsci

[bluestate10]

118. I have given up any desire to compromise with republicans.

They are fucking traitors, even the so called moderate and liberals ones. I just want to fight them, with the winner taking all.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

119. Absolutely they're traitors. They're the opposite of anything they claim to be

They bang their chest about being patriots, while hating Americans. They feel patriotism consist of wearing a lapel flag pin, and hanging a flag out on the 4th of July, but F**k Americans, the American homeless, the American working poor without jobs, the American elderly who have to choose between a needed medication and paying rent.

For them, patriotism is objects they purchase at the local Dollar General (lapel flag pins), and offering to lick the behind of every 1%er in the U.S., in the hopes that whatever they lick out will somehow convert into money.

[SpartanDem]

129. That because poor and middle class repubs have different interest.

It's really about maintaining the old male, white, dominated social order. Look at the crowds at GOP rallies and think about the enviroment they were raised, it was no doubt overwhelming white, English speaking and Protestant. For the few young people there then they have been taught that is the desired social order. For them it's about trying return to that era and the words used by GOP field reflect. It's not hard to notice how all speak about taking back the country, going back doing what made America great or someother similar theme.