An assault rifle definition that would really work

[jmowreader]

Without preamble:

Janes Information Services publishes extremely expensive books on warfare systems. There are twenty-seven of them. If there's a piece of military equipment out there whose existence has been admitted to the public, you'll find it in one of these books.

The tome I will discuss today is "Janes Weapons: Infantry," which originally was titled "Jane's Infantry Weapons." It's full of information about rifles, pistols, machine guns, shotguns, grenade launchers and just about anything else an infantry soldier can use to defeat his enemies in battle. Some of these weapons have been recreated in semiauto-only form, and those are the ones we lovingly call "assault rifles."

My proposal is that an "assault rifle" be defined as "a firearm based on a rifle listed in Jane's Infantry Weapons or Janes Weapons: Infantry, with exception that a weapon designed so that the operator must cycle the action by hand for each shot shall never be an assault rifle."

[Fullduplexxx]

1. here's an easy one. AR stands for you shouldnt own one

[paleotn]

2. Or AK for that matter..

Avtomat Kalashnikova, i.e. automatic Kalashnikov or AK.

[jmowreader]

3. This is true, but define what an "AR" is.

There are also a lot of assault rifles that are not ARs. Consider the HK93. The only thing from an AR that will fit on that rifle is the ammunition. However, it's DEFINITELY an assault rifle - it's based on the G3 rifle that half the armies in the world used.

[Fullduplexxx]

10. that is it's definition, im thinking hk and g3 are defined the same way the ar

[jmowreader]

18. They do the same thing but they're completely different from an AR

There are quite a few assault rifles out there. They vary in complexity.

But the G3? Oh man…that thing is like…

“Wolfgang! Get in here! This rifle you designed, it is very complex. You do realize this is a fine German company with a very valuable reputation in the world to uphold. Are you trying to bring shame on this firm, our founders and the German people?”

“So…you’d like me to make it even more complex?”

“Yes please, and hurry. Also, do keep in mind the design philosophy of this firm: whatever it is that you design, twenty more parts will always fit.”

[Zeitghost]

4. What is the legal definition

of "based on"? All semi-auto firearms are based on a few basic actions.



We need to stop obsessing with "Assault Weapons". There is nothing functionally different about military pattern or "tactical" semi-automatic rifles when compared to any traditionally styled semi-automatic rifle. They all shoot a single bullet with a single pull of the trigger and none are particularly more deadly than the rest.

Semi-automatic is the only real dividing line that can be made as a definable characteristic that actually has at least a small effect on the firearms ability to cause death and destruction and can't be easily defeated by small largely cosmetic design changes.

[jmowreader]

8. Definition of "based on"

Consider the AR-15. All the ARs I've seen in ads or in gun stores are based on the Army's M16A4 rifle. And most of those rifles, you can take an M16A4, set it next to an AR-15, pull all the operator-removable parts off one rifle and put them on the other, and the reassembled rifle will work.

[Zeitghost]

13. That is definitely an easy one

The problem occurs when you're looking at something like a Kel-Tec SU-16. It takes AR magazines, but after that it's completely different parts wise. It's definitely what many people would consider an "Assault Weapon" but there is a version being sold in CA that complies with our AWB.

Even the AR-15 could be redesigned to function identically but no longer be compatible with any mil-spec parts. It would piss off millions of gun owners and the industry would have to adapt to differentiate between pre-ban and post-ban parts and accessories. But it wouldn't do anything to prevent a shooting or make that shooting any less deadly.

[Caliman73]

14. Wrong way around.

The Military's M16 Rifle was built from Eugene Stoner's Armalite Rifle 15 (AR-15). Stoner developed the rifle as a light rifle for hunting small "varmints" like coyotes, etc... but when the military was looking to replace the M-14 platform which was heavy, fairly inaccurate, and not particularly useful in the jungles of Vietnam, they chose the Armalite to replace it.

When the Assault Weapons ban of the 90's was signed into law, a bunch of manufacturers started to change out the lower receivers and the bolts basically changing enough of the firearm, that it no longer fit into the "AR" category.

Any new legislation is going to have to be a lot broader than banning ARs or Assault Rifles (which typically, legally are defined as selective fire rifles).

Unfortunately, someone would likely have to propose a ban on all autoloading rifles and handguns.

[Straw Man]

24. Yup.

What is the legal definition

of "based on"?

Exactly. That should make for interesting Supreme Court arguments.

Semi-automatic is the only real dividing line that can be made as a definable characteristic that actually has at least a small effect on the firearms ability to cause death and destruction and can't be easily defeated by small largely cosmetic design changes.

Yes, and if you think the battles over assault-weapons bans are heated, wait until you see what happens with any attempt to ban all semi-auto firearms.

A compromise solution would be licensure of same -- just as many states do with CCW for handguns -- with background checks, character references, etc. To make it even more palatable, I would suggest exempting .22 rimfire.

[Kaleva]

5. Basically every semiautomatic made.

[Disaffected]

6. Easy (in principle) solution:

Ban all semi-auto guns, rifle or hand. Who actually needs one anyhow?

[paleotn]

7. Works for me. I remember them well.

from my time in the Navy. Janes Fighting Ships yearbooks.

[NutmegYankee]

9. I'd make it even simpler.

Any weapon that can propel a bullet to a velocity greater than 1800 feet per second must be manually reloaded (lever, bolt, pump, etc) between shots.

[WarGamer]

20. Won't work...

Lots of gun mfg are making AR style rifles in calibers that are lower velocity and hit much harder than a 5.56 (standard AR cartridge)

Like the 300BLK that is used by Special Ops teams... around 1400fps

[NutmegYankee]

26. The velocity is the difference between an AR gunshot and a pistol gunshot.

One is survivable in many instances, the other is not. Kinetic Energy is 1/2MV^2 - a 1400 ft/sec round will do a lot less damage than an AR-15 round at 3000 ft/sec.

[WarGamer]

34. No, let me help you.

What you wrote is only correct if bullet weights are consistent.

The 5.56 bullet in NATO trim weighs 55-62 grains.

The 300BLK bullet weighs 110-120 grains

With equal barrel length the 300BLK generates more muzzle energy.





Now if you were writing something that was unrelated to what I wrote...

Of course velocity increases muzzle energy and assuming equal projectile weight the higher velocity will always generate more muzzle velocity.

hth...

[Amishman]

38. They go bigger than that too

BiL has a 50 caliber something or other AR-15. (one of the countless guns in his immense collection).

bullet is heavier than a 12 gauge slug.

[NutmegYankee]

43. Velocity is squared versus mass. It matters more.

And the wound cavity (shockwave cavity) in flesh gets bigger as a cubic function (^3). This is why a mere 55 grain 5.56 can cause such significant injuries where a similar weight bullet from a handgun doesn’t.

[Fla_Democrat]

69. 50 Beowulf?

.458 SOCOM?


Ask him where he got his upper...

[Amishman]

70. maybe, i remember it was 50 something or other

He used it as an example as why magazine capacity is hard to legislate because it uses the exact same magazine as another gun that uses a smaller bullet but holds more when using the little ones.

As to where, no idea, but knowing him it's whoever the best / most expensive.

[Fla_Democrat]

78. That would be an AR

And a good point. I recall reading a few years back that the standard capacity AR mag only holds 10 of the .458.

Well, I'll have to keep looking, but not too hard. Be nice to get an upper just add to the collection.

[NutmegYankee]

41. Wound cavity size is a cubic function of velocity.

Do the math. The .223 is basically a .22 in size, but it caused major trauma because of the velocity. Most other high power calibers are not in such light weight semi-auto forms.

[WarGamer]

42. Of course, but that wasn't part of our original discussion.

[NutmegYankee]

44. It was part of my original point.

I didn’t go into details, but chose my velocity to be above those reached by Magnum caliber double action revolvers. It was chosen to increase the chances of survival and recovery. No gun shot is ever acceptable, but we should try to at least reduce the harm.

[WarGamer]

45. Slightly OT...

the 5.56 is particularly well suited to killing humans and other small game.

There's a reason why it's an extremely poor choice for Elk hunting. That high velocity does nothing for smashing through bone, cartilage and muscle. That's because the bullet carries so little mass.

Great grand-daddy old .30-30 rifle, hits harder than a 5.56

WW1 M1917 Enfield and it's .30-06 cartridge hits WAY harder than the 5.56

And like you said... it all comes down to high capacity, lightweight and easily accessible. This is why the AR is such a problem on the streets. If there were no AR... we'd be talking about AK's.

[NutmegYankee]

48. Yeah, at range, .30 caliber is best for hunting.

And most of those calibers were made for “battle rifles” designed to engage enemies at a distance with substantial knock down power. Typically bolt action or lever like a Remington 94, they aren’t chosen for mass shooting because of slower reloading and discomfort from the recoil. The AR-15 in close in shooting has the velocity to make up for the small mass and causes devastating wounds to humans. And the definitive feature is the bolt kicking through the center of mass into a stock spring, reducing recoil and making it easier to carry out mass shootings.

[Straw Man]

23. Simpler?

Any weapon that can propel a bullet to a velocity greater than 1800 feet per second must be manually reloaded (lever, bolt, pump, etc) between shots.

Thompson submachine guns fired .45 ACP rounds at around 800 to 900 feet per second. You'd be OK with those?

[NutmegYankee]

27. Techncially the Thompson is regulated under the NFA act of 1934.

It being a fully automatic gun. The reason I listed velocity is the true carnage of assault rifles is the high velocity of the projectile. Most hunting rounds need similar velocities, but those can be in platforms that are slower to shoot, reducing the mass shooting potential.

Handguns are also a problem, but so ubiquitous as to be impossible to fix at this point. The one saving grace is the low velocity of handguns cause far more survivable wounds compared to a rifle round.

[Straw Man]

55. Well, there are semi-auto versions of the Thompson, not regulated under NFA.

I don't agree that "the true carnage of assault rifles is the high velocity of the projectile." Rate of fire is equally if not more significant. A semi-auto Thompson with a 100-round drum magazine full of .45 ACP hollow-points would be a formidable weapon, capable of great carnage at close range, which is the range at which most of these shootings occur.

[NutmegYankee]

58. The carnage of a bullet at 3000 fps is far greater than 900 fps.

Ask any emergency room doctor.

[Straw Man]

59. At close range, we're talking about degrees of dead.

It's a meaningless distinction.

[NutmegYankee]

60. Many handgun rounds are survivable.

If a major artery is hit, or an organ like the heart, it's game over. But outside of that, the bullet usually travels in a straight path and leave a small shock cavity of damage. Rifle rounds create huge cavities and rupture far more blood vessels. Rounds like the .223 that fragment on impact often rip off chunks of flesh like the one dude in the Rittenhouse shooting who had his entire bicep blown away or tear entire organs to shreds.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

61. Bullet to bullet, rifles are more lethal on paper

In practice though, apparently mass shootings with handguns are deadlier than ones with rifles.
[link:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-gunshots/handguns-more-lethal-than-rifles-in-mass-shootings-idUSKCN1OU11G|]

In public mass shootings in the U.S., victims shot with a handgun were more likely to die than in the events associated with a rifle, according to a new study in the Journal of the American College of Surgeons.

The research team found that events with a handgun were associated with a higher percentage of people killed, whereas events involving a rifle were associated with more people shot. About 26 percent of those shot with a handgun had more than one fatal wound, versus two percent of people shot with a rifle. Handguns were also more likely to be associated with brain and heart injuries.

“All of us were shocked. We came to the table with our bias that an assault weapon would be worse,” Sarani said. “This should inform the medical community about what to expect at trauma centers and lawmakers about reasonable gun laws.”

The differences in firearm lethality could be due to several factors, Sarani explained. Close-range handguns and longer-range rifles change the distance between the shooter and victim, as well as the accuracy and velocity of the bullet. Although the higher muzzle velocity of a rifle is typically associated with more accuracy, public mass shootings with handguns tend to lead to more gunshot wounds per victim and a higher likelihood of injuries to vital organs.

Haven't read the study they are referencing, but based on anecdotal evidence from cops I know who have responded to shootings, handgun shooting are usually done at close range with a very high likelihood of head shots or multiple shots to the torso. This could explain why attacks with handguns results in more deaths(shooter is closer and aiming for head) versus rifles, where the shooter is further away and "spraying" into the crowd.

[NutmegYankee]

62. It varies by scenario.

By physics alone, rifles inflict far worse injuries. However, a shooter in a room is going to probably go for head shots or finish wounded people off like the Virginia Tech shooter. Outside of that, the usual street carnage in a city like Chicago has a high number of shot and a far lower number of killed. It's all about where you get shot - even a .22 LR to the head is probably going to be fatal.

[Straw Man]

64. Granted.

But modern "hot" loads in a longer barrel (like a Thompson) as opposed to a handgun can approach 1500 fps. See the second chart for "real world" results.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

Consider that these loadings are usually hollow-points, which will have a devastating impact on the human body.

[NutmegYankee]

65. My proposal was just a stab at the issue.

I chose that number to be well above the muzzle velocity of 'Magnum' double action revolver rounds. If you feel that there could be an epidemic of Gangsters with Tommie guns, we can lower that threshold and force ammo manufacturers to reduce the powder grains in a load to meet it.

[Torchlight]

11. If nothing else, it'll stop the herd of sealions if but only for a moment.

Last edited Mon Apr 3, 2023, 08:42 PM - Edit history (1)

And a day without that forever balking and incessant droning is always a better day than it would otherwise be.

OE: or not.

[W_HAMILTON]

12. It's already well defined in proposed legislation.

The whole "well, we can't even define an assault rifle, so how can we ban it?" it just a poor talking point.

From a recent attempt at an updated version of that old assault weapons ban:

SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.

(a) In General.—Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

“(38) The term ‘semiautomatic pistol’ means any repeating pistol that—

“(A) utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round; and

“(B) requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.

“(39) The term ‘semiautomatic shotgun’ means any repeating shotgun that—

“(A) utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing shell to extract the fired shell casing and chamber the next round; and

“(B) requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each shell.

“(40) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means any of the following, regardless of country of manufacture or caliber of ammunition accepted:

“(A) A semiautomatic rifle that—

“(i) has the capacity to accept a detachable ammunition feeding device; and

“(ii) has any 1 of the following:

“(I) A pistol grip.

“(II) A forward grip.

“(III) A folding, telescoping, or detachable stock, or a stock that is otherwise foldable or adjustable in a manner that operates to reduce the length, size, or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the concealability, of the weapon.

“(IV) A grenade launcher.

“(V) A barrel shroud.

“(VI) A threaded barrel.

“(B) A semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 15 rounds, except for an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

“(C) Any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm but not convert the semiautomatic firearm into a machinegun.

“(D) A semiautomatic pistol that—

“(i) has an ammunition feeding device that is not a fixed ammunition feeding device; and

“(ii) has any 1 of the following:

“(I) A threaded barrel.

“(II) A second pistol grip.

“(III) A barrel shroud.

“(IV) The capacity to accept a detachable ammunition feeding device at some location outside of the pistol grip.

“(V) A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.

“(VI) A manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when unloaded.

“(VII) A buffer tube, stabilizing brace or similar component that protrudes horizontally behind the pistol grip, and is designed or redesigned to allow or facilitate a firearm to be fired from the shoulder.

“(E) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed ammunition feeding device that has the capacity to accept more than 15 rounds.

“(F) A semiautomatic shotgun that—

“(i) has the capacity to accept a detachable ammunition feeding device or a fixed ammunition feeding device that has the capacity to accept more than 5 rounds; and

“(ii) has any 1 of the following:

“(I) A folding, telescoping, or detachable stock.

“(II) A pistol grip or bird's head grip.

“(III) A forward grip.

“(IV) A grenade launcher.

“(G) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

“(H) All of the following rifles, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof:

“(i) All AK types, including the following:

“(I) AK, AK47, AK47S, AK–74, AKM, AKS, ARM, MAK90, MISR, NHM90, NHM91, Rock River Arms LAR–47, SA85, SA93, Vector Arms AK–47, VEPR, WASR–10, and WUM.

“(II) IZHMASH Saiga AK.

“(III) MAADI AK47 and ARM.

“(IV) Norinco 56S, 56S2, 84S, and 86S.

“(V) Poly Technologies AK47 and AKS.

“(VI) SKS with a detachable ammunition feeding device.

“(ii) All AR types, including the following:

“(I) AR–10.

“(II) AR–15.

“(III) Alexander Arms Overmatch Plus 16.

“(IV) Armalite M15 22LR Carbine.

“(V) Armalite M15–T.

“(VI) Barrett REC7.

“(VII) Beretta AR–70.

“(VIII) Black Rain Ordnance Recon Scout.

“(IX) Bushmaster ACR.

“(X) Bushmaster Carbon 15.

“(XI) Bushmaster MOE series.

“(XII) Bushmaster XM15.

“(XIII) Chiappa Firearms MFour rifles.

“(XIV) Colt Match Target rifles.

“(XV) CORE Rifle Systems CORE15 rifles.

“(XVI) Daniel Defense M4A1 rifles.

“(XVII) Devil Dog Arms 15 Series rifles.

“(XVIII) Diamondback DB15 rifles.

“(XIX) DoubleStar AR rifles.

“(XX) DPMS Tactical rifles.

“(XXI) DSA Inc. ZM–4 Carbine.

“(XXII) Heckler & Koch MR556.

“(XXIII) High Standard HSA–15 rifles.

“(XXIV) Jesse James Nomad AR–15 rifle.

“(XXV) Knight’s Armament SR–15.

“(XXVI) Lancer L15 rifles.

“(XXVII) MGI Hydra Series rifles.

“(XXVIII) Mossberg MMR Tactical rifles.

“(XXIX) Noreen Firearms BN 36 rifle.

“(XXX) Olympic Arms.

“(XXXI) POF USA P415.

“(XXXII) Precision Firearms AR rifles.

“(XXXIII) Remington R–15 rifles.

“(XXXIV) Rhino Arms AR rifles.

“(XXXV) Rock River Arms LAR–15.

“(XXXVI) Sig Sauer SIG516 rifles and MCX rifles.

“(XXXVII) Smith & Wesson M&P15 rifles.

“(XXXVIII) Stag Arms AR rifles.

“(XXXIX) Sturm, Ruger & Co. SR556 and AR–556 rifles.

“(XL) Uselton Arms Air-Lite M–4 rifles.

“(XLI) Windham Weaponry AR rifles.

“(XLII) WMD Guns Big Beast.

“(XLIII) Yankee Hill Machine Company, Inc. YHM–15 rifles.

“(iii) Barrett M107A1.

“(iv) Barrett M82A1.

“(v) Beretta CX4 Storm.

“(vi) Calico Liberty Series.

“(vii) CETME Sporter.

“(viii) Daewoo K–1, K–2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR 110C.

“(ix) Fabrique Nationale/FN Herstal FAL, LAR, 22 FNC, 308 Match, L1A1 Sporter, PS90, SCAR, and FS2000.

“(x) Feather Industries AT–9.

“(xi) Galil Model AR and Model ARM.

“(xii) Hi-Point Carbine.

“(xiii) HK–91, HK–93, HK–94, HK–PSG–1, and HK USC.

“(xiv) IWI TAVOR, Galil ACE rifle.

“(xv) Kel-Tec Sub-2000, SU–16, and RFB.

“(xvi) SIG AMT, SIG PE–57, Sig Sauer SG 550, Sig Sauer SG 551, and SIG MCX.

“(xvii) Springfield Armory SAR–48.

“(xviii) Steyr AUG.

“(xix) Sturm, Ruger & Co. Mini-14 Tactical Rifle M–14/20CF.

“(xx) All Thompson rifles, including the following:

“(I) Thompson M1SB.

“(II) Thompson T1100D.

“(III) Thompson T150D.

“(IV) Thompson T1B.

“(V) Thompson T1B100D.

“(VI) Thompson T1B50D.

“(VII) Thompson T1BSB.

“(VIII) Thompson T1–C.

“(IX) Thompson T1D.

“(X) Thompson T1SB.

“(XI) Thompson T5.

“(XII) Thompson T5100D.

“(XIII) Thompson TM1.

“(XIV) Thompson TM1C.

“(xxi) UMAREX UZI rifle.

“(xxii) UZI Mini Carbine, UZI Model A Carbine, and UZI Model B Carbine.

“(xxiii) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78.

“(xxiv) Vector Arms UZI Type.

“(xxv) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.

“(xxvi) Wilkinson Arms Linda Carbine.

“(I) All of the following pistols, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof:

“(i) All AK types, including the following:

“(I) Centurion 39 AK pistol.

“(II) CZ Scorpion pistol.

“(III) Draco AK–47 pistol.

“(IV) HCR AK–47 pistol.

“(V) IO Inc. Hellpup AK–47 pistol.

“(VI) Krinkov pistol.

“(VII) Mini Draco AK–47 pistol.

“(VIII) PAP M92 pistol.

“(IX) Yugo Krebs Krink pistol.

“(ii) All AR types, including the following:

“(I) American Spirit AR–15 pistol.

“(II) Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol.

“(III) Chiappa Firearms M4 Pistol GEN II.

“(IV) CORE Rifle Systems CORE15 Roscoe pistol.

“(V) Daniel Defense MK18 pistol.

“(VI) DoubleStar Corporation AR pistol.

“(VII) DPMS AR–15 pistol.

“(VIII) Jesse James Nomad AR–15 pistol.

“(IX) Olympic Arms AR–15 pistol.

“(X) Osprey Armament MK–18 pistol.

“(XI) POF USA AR pistols.

“(XII) Rock River Arms LAR 15 pistol.

“(XIII) Uselton Arms Air-Lite M–4 pistol.

“(iii) Calico pistols.

“(iv) DSA SA58 PKP FAL pistol.

“(v) Encom MP–9 and MP–45.

“(vi) Heckler & Koch model SP–89 pistol.

“(vii) Intratec AB–10, TEC–22 Scorpion, TEC–9, and TEC–DC9.

“(viii) IWI Galil Ace pistol, UZI PRO pistol.

“(ix) Kel-Tec PLR 16 pistol.

“(x) All MAC types, including the following:

“(I) MAC–10.

“(II) MAC–11.

“(III) Masterpiece Arms MPA A930 Mini Pistol, MPA460 Pistol, MPA Tactical Pistol, and MPA Mini Tactical Pistol.

“(IV) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M–11.

“(V) Velocity Arms VMAC.

“(xi) Sig Sauer P556 pistol.

“(xii) Sites Spectre.

“(xiii) All Thompson types, including the following:

“(I) Thompson TA510D.

“(II) Thompson TA5.

“(xiv) All UZI types, including Micro-UZI.

“(J) All of the following shotguns, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof:

“(i) DERYA Anakon MC–1980, Anakon SD12.

“(ii) Doruk Lethal shotguns.

“(iii) Franchi LAW–12 and SPAS 12.

“(iv) All IZHMASH Saiga 12 types, including the following:

“(I) IZHMASH Saiga 12.

“(II) IZHMASH Saiga 12S.

“(III) IZHMASH Saiga 12S EXP–01.

“(IV) IZHMASH Saiga 12K.

“(V) IZHMASH Saiga 12K–030.

“(VI) IZHMASH Saiga 12K–040 Taktika.

“(v) Streetsweeper.

“(vi) Striker 12.

“(K) All belt-fed semiautomatic firearms, including TNW M2HB and FN M2495.

“(L) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraphs (A) through (K) can be assembled.

“(M) The frame or receiver of a rifle or shotgun described in subparagraph (G), (H), (J), or (K).

Taken from: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1808/text

[Zeitghost]

15. And those deffinitions

And other similar sets have loopholes the size of a big rig that gun manufacturers have been utilizing for decades to sell AR-15 and similar style rifles in every state with an AWB.

They ban cosmetic and ergonomic features that have no affect on the function of the rifle.

[fescuerescue]

30. It's while assault weapon sales SURGED during the assault weapon ban of 1994

They did little things.

Like rename the rifle. Removed the threads from the barrel etc.

[W_HAMILTON]

37. That sounds like more right-wing talking points.

Basically throwing your hands up in the air and claiming nothing can be done. Something can be done. Lots can be done. And this proposed legislation is a very good start.

And if your assertion is that gun manufacturers will try to skirt the law and sell what they want, yes, that goes without saying, which is why COMPREHENSIVE proposed legislation like this should be immediately passed and updated in the future as necessary as gun manufacturers attempt to get around the law by selling weapons of war to everyday citizens.

[Zeitghost]

40. Far from it

For one, it's literally what is happening.

For two, I am not saying give up. I'm saying focus on what actually matters and what will actually work. Banning pistol grips and flash hiders just does not work when it comes to actually reducing deaths and violence.

[W_HAMILTON]

47. And that is not nearly all that this proposed legislation does.

[Zeitghost]

49. There are no functional differences

Between a standard AR-15 and those that comply with the various bans in different states or the 94 federal ban. The manufactures have engineered work arounds to any meaningful regulations and the everything else was cosmetic.

You can look at large retailers online and see what is for sale right now in California.

[W_HAMILTON]

51. I was not referring to any of those bans.

This proposed legislation I referred to is newly proposed and has been updated to account for many, if not all, of those criticisms you have about older federal bans or existing state bans.

[Zeitghost]

53. The proposed deffinitions you posted

Does not have any meaningful changes.

[W_HAMILTON]

66. It does.

But tell me why you think our Democratic legislators would propose a new weapons ban that had no """meaningful changes?"""

Do you think they want the killings to continue?

Do you think they are incompetent?

Do you think they are beholden to the NRA? (LOL)

Really, flesh out your conspiracy theory for us.

[Zeitghost]

72. You seem to have read entirely too much into my posts

Conspiracy theory? Uh, no....


They are well intentioned attempts to solve a problem by people who don't seem to understand the issue or know that any meaningful change is politically impossible at this moment so they want to nibble around the edge of the problem until more effective legislation is politically feasible.

Perhaps you would like to point out the part I missed that makes a significant impact on the type of firearm that can be sold under these new definitions that won't be easily defeated by a small design change.

[W_HAMILTON]

74. The legislators that are proposing this aren't the types to "nibble around the edge of the problem."

And I did point out where this particular bill also bans similar guns that manufacturers make with a "small design change" for the purpose of getting around the ban. I don't know whether it was in direct response to you or one of the other posters who are taking up this "nothing can be done" charge, but once again, feel free to read the actual legislation because that's where it's from.

And it is a conspiracy theory when you are claiming that these legislators don't understand the issue -- once again, they may not, but they utilize experts in the field that certainly know more than you or I on the subject -- and that they only "nibbled around the edge of the problem" because this was a bill that was passed in the Democratic-controlled House and it being whittled down would take place in the Senate where these sorts of bills often get watered down to ensure the 60 votes needed for passage.

This bill is the strongest piece of anti-gun legislation that has been passed by either chamber in quite some time -- period, full stop.

[Zeitghost]

75. It may be the strongest in some time

But that is not a high hurdle to clear...


They are not nibbling around the edges of this issue because they want to, they are doing so because they are extremely limited by current case law and the political environment.

The facts are, most murders are not committed with "assault weapons" and the proposed bans on adjustable stocks, pistol grips, barrel shrouds, etc. do absolutely nothing to limit a firearms ability to cause harm. The vast majority of gun crime involves semi-auto handguns and nobody has seriously proposed anything that addresses that issue, because, as I stated above the case law and political environment simply do not allow for it.

[SYFROYH]

19. The Sandy Hook shooter used an AWB compliant AR

Are you sure it’s easy to define them?

[W_HAMILTON]

35. That is wrong.

The Sandy Hook shooter used a .223-caliber Bushmaster XM15-E2S rifle for 154 of the ~156 shots that were accounted for.

This particular rifle is one of the ones specifically banned ( (XII) Bushmaster XM15 ) in the proposed legislation I previously cited.

If you insist otherwise, feel free to provide reputable evidence supporting your claim.

[SYFROYH]

39. Not wrong that the Sandy Hook rifle was compliant with the CT AWB

which was modeled line by line after the defunct Federal AWB.

Plenty of progressive politicians, including many in New York and New Jersey, have proposed bans on assault rifles. But the ban would apply only to new sales of these guns. There is no provision to confiscate older models — many of them legally owned by law-abiding people.

And that's just the problem. Adam Lanza was not a legal gun owner. His mother was, however. She legally purchased the AR-15. Adam merely took the gun from her, killing her first then attacking the school.
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/2022/02/18/sandy-hook-victims-lawsuit-remington-settlement-mike-kelly-nj/6834378001/

The AWB you cited is an updated AWB as you stated, but the Sandy Hook rifle would have been compliant with a different grip (nonpistol). California with its AWB sells a lot of these. I'll let you google. Oh and change the name to Bushy Bushymaster.

Pistol grips are more ergonomic, but they don't reduce lethality very much if at all.

[W_HAMILTON]

46. The legislation I posted was the newly proposed federal legislation.

Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2023, 02:14 PM - Edit history (1)

It is more updated than either of the pieces of legislation you proposed, and, yes, contrary to your claim, most certainly would have covered the weapon that fired almost all of the shots in Sandy Hook.

And, once again, no, it would not have been compliant as the proposed legislation also covers expected loopholes such as the one you mentioned ( e.g., its banning "all of the following rifles, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof" ). Simply changing it to a different grip would have not gotten around this new proposed legislation.

[SYFROYH]

50. I disgree that the section you quoted achieves what you think it does

When you change the grip to a non-pistol grip you are changing the rifle's capability as a whole and no longer a duplicate.

Minor modifications have been used to get around the Federal and state AWBs with similar language in the past.

[W_HAMILTON]

52. So you think our Democratic legislators are incapable of recognizing what went wrong...

...with similar legislation in the past and updating it so that those same problems do not occur in this proposed legislation, hmm?

So, once again, you (and the others that have a problem with this proposed legislation) are falling back into the, yes, right-wing talking point of nothing can be done, so let's do nothing. If that is not your position, feel free to state so. And then realize that whatever you believe can be done but is apparently not being done, our legislators are even more aware than you of making sure proposed legislation addresses those concerns.

[SYFROYH]

56. Absolutely. And no, I'm not saying nothing can be done

Lots can be done to reduce gun violence.

The problem with most AWB legislation is that they still allow the ONE feature that actually increases rate of fire - detachable magazines.

Our legislators like to dick around arguing about pistol grips, flash suppressors, folding stocks, and even, and this is hilarious, bayonet lugs.

And yes, ever since a famous AWB US Rep called a barrel shroud “as the thing that goes up” I’ve not been impressed with our legislator’s understanding of firearms.

[W_HAMILTON]

67. You think they are coming up with this all on their own rather than consulting experts in the field?

Like I said, if you think the proposed legislation is lacking, feel free to contact your congressional representatives and give them your advice on how it could be improved upon.

[SYFROYH]

68. I think AWBs are fundamentally flawed.

It would be better to go down a NFA style registry with no tax and avoid bans all together.

[Straw Man]

22. Not well-defined at all.

First of all, the listing of specific models leaves the door wide open for new designs, with new names, that do the same thing, rendering the section completely useless.

Secondly, the only meaningful elements in the descriptive definition are semi-automatic and detachable magazine. The rest is simply cosmetic or ergonomic, and has nothing to do with lethality. If you propose to ban all semi-auto firearms, you are talking about banning something that has been in the public sphere for over 100 years. Essentially, you would be limiting civilian gun owners to 19th-century technology. And that's going to be a very hard sell.

[W_HAMILTON]

36. You clearly didn't read the legislation thoroughly.

It not only refers to specific models but also, among other attempts to close such loopholes, "all of the following rifles, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof."

[Straw Man]

54. Yes, I did, and it wasn't the first time.

"all of the following rifles, copies, duplicates, variants, or altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof."

The part in bold is not only vague, both legally and technologically, but it also renders the model list superfluous. The capabilities are the only relevant factor; the law could have stopped there.

[NickB79]

16. A lot of pump-action AR-15's will be sold instead

Yes, there are pump action AR's.

Yes, they look almost identical to a regular AR-15, fire the same rounds, use the same magazines.

[sl8]

25. Good point.There's a reason why Australia included them in their ban.

And it won't be just AR-15s, either. Many, probably most, current semi-auto rifles could be modified into a slide (pump) action pretty easily.

And they're nearly as fast for aimed fire as a semi-auto. If the round fired has any appreciable recoil, they can just be as fast, as the slide can be operated while recovering from the recoil.

[NickB79]

28. Then you run into the issue of accidentally banning hunting guns

And a LOT of Democrats own pump and lever actions for hunting.

I say just ban high capacity magazines. Cap it at 10 rd like the old AWB and be done with it. 10 is plenty for self defense and hunting.

[Straw Man]

57. Bingo.

I say just ban high capacity magazines. Cap it at 10 rd like the old AWB and be done with it. 10 is plenty for self defense and hunting.

That's simple, clear, and effective. Of course there would still be millions of 20 and 30-round magazines out there. The doom-preppers and insurrectionists could bury theirs in the yard and feel like they're getting away with something, but the impulse spree-killers wouldn't be able to pick up a few at the gun store along with their rifle purchase, so that part of the problem would be solved.

[Red Mountain]

17. 'assault rifle'

isn't really a category that matters.

Fully automatic is illegal.....except with an expensive permit and background check.

Semi-automatic is legal.

Single shot is legal.....with certain restrictions. Barrel length, etc.

Semi auto is what has to be regulated. You can start with magazine size or the bump stock obscenity but the ability to fire multiple rounds quickly without reloading is what facilitates the mass murders we experience frequently.

Semi auto weapons are EVERYWHERE and there is absolutely no stomach for dealing with them except around the edges in ways that won't matter in terms of people getting killed.

They aren't going away and we don't have a path to controlling them in a meaningful way......because the American people want them.

Insurance? Repukes argue: "Criminals don't care"

Long mandatory jail terms for gun violence? Life? Better decriminalize drugs first or plan on building a LOT more prisons.

Anything else?



We have a cultural problem. Guns are popular.

It's killing our kids.

[pansypoo53219]

21. i think only 1776 era weapons would be legal. and fucking use the 2nd part of the 2nd amendment.

[fescuerescue]

29. "based on"

is a weasel word that an NRA lawyer would drive a truck through.

[edisdead]

31. To me,

an assault rifle is any rifle that can be used when assaulting someone.

In other words every single one ever produced.

[albacore]

32. I get tired of the nomenclature arguments about assault weapons...

Ammosexuals lovingly describing the unique features that give them little stubby erections.
We know what an assault weapon is.
If Saint Ronny Ray-gun knew what an assault rifle is, ANYbody can figure it out.

[albacore]

33. And while we're considering St. Ronny...

Suck on that... Ron Deathsantis

[fescuerescue]

63. Yea.

Yea, but substituting Internet memes for jury instructions is going to result in a lot of reversals on appeals.

[Act_of_Reparation]

71. I get tired of people thinking the world's problems can be fixed with a soundbyte.

But here we both are.

[albacore]

73. I got your soundbyte right here....

[Act_of_Reparation]

76. Cool, man.

When lawmakers sit down to draft an assault weapons ban they can just link to that video. Guess no one will have an excuse for not reading the bill, eh?

[albacore]

77. My Gunnery Sergeant would have disemboweled me ....

...for burning up barrels like that on my M-60.
When they cooled, you could probably shoot around corners with them.
Also amazed they didn't have stoppages. Probably didn't show the ones where parts came off the weapon, or the cook-offs after they let up on the trigger.