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Cyrano

(15,159 posts)
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 02:51 PM Feb 2023

If we want to stop the massacres, the guns must go

The Republican Party, the NRA, and gun people (including many Democrats), won't give up their guns "... until you pry it out of my cold, dead hands." Given the number of children and adults who have died in schools, houses of worship, and so many other venues, you'd think there'd be an outcry that the guns have to go. But it ain't happened. And it's very unlikely that it will.

New York City should be a model for the entire country. If you want to buy or carry a gun in NYC, you need a damn good reason. Most often, permits are issued to people who carry a lot of cash as part of their jobs, jewelers, and various types of business and store owners (often on the condition that the gun must be kept in the business/store and not carried.)

You can buy a hunting rifle in New York. (I don't know if you can buy military style rifles, but I'm pretty sure you can't buy extended ammo magazines.)

If you got in a car accident in NYC, the last thing you'd think of is that the other person has a gun.

If you got into a car accident in Florida, where I live, the first thing you'd think of is that the other person has a gun.

Right now, our message to the world is: "If you want a good chance of getting shot in a public place, visit America, the land of the free and the home of tens of thousands of people who won't leave their house without a gun."

And I'm tired of "The shooter had mental health issues." Fuck that excuse. Anyone, at any time can "lose it." But if there's no gun at hand, there's a good chance that no one else will lose their life.

Our cowboy mentality has to go. Or sure as hell, thousands more people will die from America's love affair with guns.

I mean, really. What the fuck is wrong with us?

(And please don't hand me the 2nd Amendment crap that was written when people owned single-shot muskets.)

46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
If we want to stop the massacres, the guns must go (Original Post) Cyrano Feb 2023 OP
Interesting- - stat dept tells us citizens to get out of Russia. 3Hotdogs Feb 2023 #1
Some Have Issued Warnings nt SoCalDavidS Feb 2023 #10
States United to Prevent Gun Violence - Ed old as dirt Feb 2023 #2
That's a good one! nt Phoenix61 Feb 2023 #6
Exactly. This should be run every day on TV as a public service announcement. Cyrano Feb 2023 #7
Damn right! chowder66 Feb 2023 #43
I wish I would have seen this run on TV. chowder66 Feb 2023 #44
that is the crux of this issue mike_c Feb 2023 #3
Making it so only the wealthy will be able to have guns will be a losing proposition MichMan Feb 2023 #21
the problem is the number of guns and ease of access mike_c Feb 2023 #24
How would you plan to seize them from otherwise law abiding citizens ? MichMan Feb 2023 #28
people can learn to "plan their vacations" around other things, or... mike_c Feb 2023 #33
Putting financial roadblocks into place that effectively DetroitLegalBeagle Feb 2023 #29
so we do nothing?-- enjoy today's mass shooting, and tomorrow's, and the next.... mike_c Feb 2023 #34
I didn't say there was nothing that can be done. DetroitLegalBeagle Feb 2023 #37
Insurance would be incredibly cheap Zeitghost Feb 2023 #46
I couldn't agree more. I've been out of the country for Phoenix61 Feb 2023 #4
It's about time... and lives Jrose Feb 2023 #5
Americans have to look deep in their hearts and souls and make a decision. Irish_Dem Feb 2023 #8
I can think of only one thing that may make a difference. But it will never happen. Cyrano Feb 2023 #31
Yes. Eisenhower made the German people walk through the concentration camps for good reason. Irish_Dem Feb 2023 #35
Making Germans walk through the concentration camps Cyrano Feb 2023 #40
++1 Irish_Dem Feb 2023 #41
It's simple malaise Feb 2023 #9
+ infinity pandr32 Feb 2023 #13
Banning guns is as big of a losing issue as banning abortion. nt LexVegas Feb 2023 #11
which calls for effectiv national leadership to educate people and frame the issue to appeal to them mike_c Feb 2023 #18
I agree with a lot of what you say, and I am a gun owner. LexVegas Feb 2023 #20
Banning some guns is a winning issue. It happened in the past AndyS Feb 2023 #22
People On These Boards Only Want To Hear Optimism SoCalDavidS Feb 2023 #12
I go back and forth with my predictions Tumbulu Feb 2023 #16
The gun culture has been working on this project for longer than you've been alive. AndyS Feb 2023 #23
Surely there must be dozens of candidates that will make that the centerpiece of their campaign MichMan Feb 2023 #14
NYC's laws changed DetroitLegalBeagle Feb 2023 #15
Didn't know that. Thanks for the update DLB, (and the bad news). Cyrano Feb 2023 #25
That "2nd Amendment crap" is exactly that. pandr32 Feb 2023 #17
And Supreme Court Justices who are willfully blind to the deaths they are letting happen. Cyrano Feb 2023 #27
Those Justices are paid to be adept at reinterpreting laws and traditions pandr32 Feb 2023 #38
What good are gun control laws when prosecutors rufuse to prosecute? Jose Garcia Feb 2023 #19
I do hope you are not expecting sarisataka Feb 2023 #32
For this thread LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2023 #26
Kick MN2theMax Feb 2023 #30
The guns are going nowhere. We are a sick nation willing to allow our children to die. Autumn Feb 2023 #36
We don't even use the myriad gun laws we have now NickB79 Feb 2023 #39
If we were serious about dealing with guns ripcord Feb 2023 #42
Further, every gun used illegally must be destroyed! sanatanadharma Feb 2023 #45

3Hotdogs

(12,782 posts)
1. Interesting- - stat dept tells us citizens to get out of Russia.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 02:55 PM
Feb 2023

I’m surprised foreign nations don’t advise their peeps to stay out of U.S.

 

old as dirt

(1,972 posts)
2. States United to Prevent Gun Violence - Ed
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 02:57 PM
Feb 2023
(And please don't hand me the 2nd Amendment crap that was written when people owned single-shot muskets.)


mike_c

(36,281 posts)
3. that is the crux of this issue
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:01 PM
Feb 2023

For all the rationalization and blame pointing elsewhere, at the end of the day the single most important contributor to gun violence is access to guns themselves. We will not solve the epidemic of gun violence in this country until we face the simple truth that curtailing access to guns is the one best way to reduce the carnage. Nothing else is as effective. Whatever measures we're taking today are worthless and should not even be part of the conversation-- they have proven to not work, over and over and over.

Requiring every gun owner in the U.S. to carry a license and shooter's liability insurance would go a long way toward reducing the epidemic of gun violence. It should be prohibitively expensive for most to legally possess firearms in America, with harsh penalties for infractions. Hitting gun lovers in their wallets might do more to limit gun violence than all the appeals to decency from all the politicians everywhere, which again, clearly do not work. Decency seems to be in ever shorter supply.

MichMan

(12,232 posts)
21. Making it so only the wealthy will be able to have guns will be a losing proposition
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:43 PM
Feb 2023

You are severely underestimating the number of lower and middle income law abiding people that enjoy hunting activities. Any candidate proposing such requirements in Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin would get decimated at the polls. It would be the greatest gift the Republicans ever got.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
24. the problem is the number of guns and ease of access
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:52 PM
Feb 2023

So yeah, if only 0.1% of the population could afford guns, that would be a HUGE step forward. Again though, this is just a matter of effective political leadership. Let's get to the point where only millionaires can afford to legally own guns and then deal with that issue when it becomes a problem, if it actually becomes a problem, which I seriously doubt. I mean, yeah, maybe only the wealthy can afford to keep guns, but draconian penalties for misusing them would hit them as well as the poorest pauper who commits gun violence. Ensuring that is likewise a matter of effective political leadership.

Hunting is routinely addressed by all of the other world democracies with effective gun control laws. A bolt action carbine and a shotgun would meet that need, and both could be allowed if licensed and liability insured. But I'm all out of fucks to give for people who stonewall progress on gun control because they want to hump their guns, regardless of their reasons. Make them pay for it, and make it a serious legal and financial responsibility.

MichMan

(12,232 posts)
28. How would you plan to seize them from otherwise law abiding citizens ?
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:00 PM
Feb 2023
"It should be prohibitively expensive for most to legally possess firearms in America, with harsh penalties for infractions."

Arrent, fine and jail everyone with a hunting rifle or shotgun?

Deer hunting is a way of life in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota along with many other states. People plan their whole vacations around it. Do you think those gun owners would ever vote for someone advocating that their favorite pastime be taken away from them?

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
33. people can learn to "plan their vacations" around other things, or...
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:23 PM
Feb 2023

...they can decide to invest in gun ownership and the financial and legal ramifications thereof. Like I say, I'm all out of fucks for people who deliberately stand in the way of progress on this issue. People are slaughtered by gun violence EVERYDAY in America and nothing we're currently doing has been the least bit effective in preventing it. Coddling gun humpers' needs to hunt, or shoot clay birds, or feel bad ass, or whatever has gotten us to where we are today. Do you consider this a tenable situation? Is this what we should accept from our political leadership? Daily slaughter of innocents by people who, without access to guns, would mostly just become grumpy old men instead?

I'm fed up. I personally support a complete ban on gun ownership for most Americans for about a generation or so, to start. I know that's unlikely to ever happen, so I support next best measures that might be more politically palatable, like strong licensing, education, and insurance requirements for gun owners. But all of this is in the context of what is happening on the ground (carnage) and what we can aspire to if we are honest about the need to discard the status quo. I don't think it will be easy, but where we are now is not acceptable.

You've framed your discussion in conservative terms, seizing guns from "otherwise law abiding citizens." All criminals are "otherwise law abiding citizens" if we discount their crimes as merely "otherwise." Under my proposal, gun owners who refuse to follow legal gun restrictions are no longer law abiding citizens, are they?

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,014 posts)
29. Putting financial roadblocks into place that effectively
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:03 PM
Feb 2023

blocks lower income people from exercising a fundamental right would get tossed out of even the most liberal of courts. Like it or not, gun ownership is a fundamental right. The only thing that will change that now is repealing the 2nd amendment or getting a new majority in the Supreme Court to reinterpret it.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
34. so we do nothing?-- enjoy today's mass shooting, and tomorrow's, and the next....
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:33 PM
Feb 2023

Can we at least agree on the need to change the status quo? How would you suggest fixing it if not by strictly reducing access to guns? Nothing we are doing now is preventing our nationwide epidemic of gun violence. What would you suggest we do instead, or do you accept our daily slaughter of innocents? Are you saying there is NOTHING we can do about it? What about the experiences of most other major democracies who have succeeded in limiting gun violence by desaturating themselves with privately owned guns? Are we so inferior to those example democracies that we can never find solutions for gun violence as they have, especially solutions that entail any degree of sacrifice for the greater good?

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,014 posts)
37. I didn't say there was nothing that can be done.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:52 PM
Feb 2023

I gave 2 solutions, repeal the 2nd or get a majority on SCOTUS to reinterpret it and overturn their previous rulings. Thomas screwed the gun control movement with Bruen. Hard. That ruling is going to be used to knock down laws for years. California's assault weapons ban is likely next on deck. The current Federal Judge who is hearing the case challenging it has already ruled to overturn it previously in 2021. Currently, it's obvious he is going to do the same again, but this time he is trying to make it as difficult as possible for the 9th Circuit to overrule his coming decision. Outside of the the legal fight, really the only way to change things is to make gun ownership as socially unacceptable as smoking cigarettes. And that is something that would take years to do. I'm not saying it's not worth it, but expecting a quick fix, like a passing a few laws, isn't realistic.

Zeitghost

(4,051 posts)
46. Insurance would be incredibly cheap
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 07:17 PM
Feb 2023

Insurance will not cover an intentional illegal act. Meaning a policy would only cover damages from accidental shootings which are a small minority of incidents, most of which do not involve bystanders.

Phoenix61

(17,159 posts)
4. I couldn't agree more. I've been out of the country for
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:01 PM
Feb 2023

a month and have lost count of how many mass shootings there have been. I feel much safer knowing the odds of anyone, other then LEOs having a gun here are practically zero.

Amazing how many know about DeSantis. I always say, “ You mean DeSatan” and we laugh and have a good time. I’ve only met one right-wing nut job.

Jrose

(1,005 posts)
5. It's about time... and lives
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:02 PM
Feb 2023

Until and unless the entire human population of the U. S. becomes immune to mental illness, violent behaviour, racism, misogyny, greed, narcissism and substance abuse...
Guns, especially military rifles, must be legally banned from general use.

Irish_Dem

(52,082 posts)
8. Americans have to look deep in their hearts and souls and make a decision.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:04 PM
Feb 2023

What kind of country do they want to be?

Cyrano

(15,159 posts)
31. I can think of only one thing that may make a difference. But it will never happen.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:15 PM
Feb 2023

The murders at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, CT. Twenty six died there. Most were very young children.

I know this will never happen but publishing, and displaying on TV, photos of the children butchered there could not help but cause a national cry of outrage and a widespread demand that this can never again be allowed to happen and that the guns have to go.

But as I said, it will never happen. It's impossible to imagine what the parents of these children would go through by seeing those pictures. Not to mention that every decent person on this planet would have to turn away from those images to save their own sanity.

Law enforcement officers that have seen them can never burn those images from their minds. And some who were actually on the scene may spend the rest of their lives in therapy.

Were this to actually happen, Republicans would call it a "political stunt." And I hope that everyone else would see it as a call to get rid of the guns once and for all.

Irish_Dem

(52,082 posts)
35. Yes. Eisenhower made the German people walk through the concentration camps for good reason.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:45 PM
Feb 2023

The American people should be made to look at first graders shot to ribbons in their classrooms.

Sadly Americans are protected from their own cruelty, apathy and ignorance.

A society which could care less about the safety of their young children is a failed society.

Cyrano

(15,159 posts)
40. Making Germans walk through the concentration camps
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 05:40 PM
Feb 2023

was a stroke of brilliance. Eisenhower made them face what their country/government had done, and I'm virtually certain his reason was to help make sure that it could never happen again.

The unthinkable photos from Sandy Hook might just change the minds of countless Americans. And, "The American people should be made to look at first graders shot to ribbons in their classrooms," might wake up many to the utter insanity and inhumanity of our gun culture.

But we know that those images will never be made public. I guess all we can do is mourn, and hope for evolution to speed up a bit.




malaise

(271,705 posts)
9. It's simple
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:05 PM
Feb 2023

Markey over society - the gun manufacturers are enriching themselves
No one is safe and no one who is making or benefitting from the money gives a shit, including all the owned politicians and religious leaders.. Their thoughts and prayers slogan never had any meaning just like the rest of their religious BS.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
18. which calls for effectiv national leadership to educate people and frame the issue to appeal to them
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:34 PM
Feb 2023

Last edited Wed Feb 15, 2023, 05:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Honestly, if we start with small but effective measures to curtail gun violence (nothing we're doing today seems effective at all) and let the risk market sort out most gun owners who will ultimately choose for themselves to limit legal gun ownership due to expense.

We need harsh penalties for uninsured gun ownership, e.g. a lifetime ban from gun ownership, financial penalties that will set you back a decade or two, and assured incarceration for a couple of years *for each infraction*. Let gun lovers themselves decide whether owning something that most will never use is worth the expense, hassle, and risk. Combine that with generous government buy-back for existing weapons and hopefully most Americans will decide to abide by the laws for themselves by surrendering their guns or seriously securing them.

We don't have to ban guns to reduce gun violence, although that would be my preferred solution, as it's the one that will actually remove guns from the population quickly (as Australia demonstrated). But simply making legal gun ownership a prohibitively expensive hassle for most folks would sort things out eventually. It's got to be better than doing nothing!

LexVegas

(6,167 posts)
20. I agree with a lot of what you say, and I am a gun owner.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:41 PM
Feb 2023

I was specifically addressing the "ban guns" crowd. That is a non-starter for a lot people, including many Democrats and progressives.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
22. Banning some guns is a winning issue. It happened in the past
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:45 PM
Feb 2023

and will happen again, this time with no sunset.

SoCalDavidS

(9,999 posts)
12. People On These Boards Only Want To Hear Optimism
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:15 PM
Feb 2023

But guess what? America's gun violence is NEVER going away. There is NOTHING that will be done. We've already set the standard with all of the school and places of worship mass shootings. If those didn't move the needle, nothing will.

I'm 56, and I fully expect things to continue, and probably get worse, the rest of my lifetime.

Sorry that's a downer, and that I need to shut up because I'm discouraging people. But I see reality, and it tells me that those who can change things, are not having any of it. I feel that's just what America is, and always shall be. Guns are more important the lives.

Tumbulu

(6,367 posts)
16. I go back and forth with my predictions
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:25 PM
Feb 2023

Some days my conclusion is the same as yours.

But other days I believe that the youth will actually vote and that the sea change will occur.

The effect of Rush Limbaugh on the society ( resulting in Trump and all the rising RWNJ’s) will take at least a decade more to recover from. If the youth can finally get out and vote, regularly, the situation will change.

But it will take a long long time.

Way longer than it should have.

The problem, in my view, is ignoring the impact that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk had on the culture.

And the Russian interference and funding of the NRA and those supporting division for political and personal gain.

We shall see.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
23. The gun culture has been working on this project for longer than you've been alive.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:48 PM
Feb 2023

It will take that long to make real meaningful change. It isn't for the weak willed or for the short sighted.

Surrender if you choose, just recognize that's what you're doing.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,014 posts)
15. NYC's laws changed
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:22 PM
Feb 2023
New York City should be a model for the entire country. If you want to buy or carry a gun in NYC, you need a damn good reason. Most often, permits are issued to people who carry a lot of cash as part of their jobs, jewelers, and various types of business and store owners (often on the condition that the gun must be kept in the business/store and not carried.)

This is no longer true. The Bruen decision last year threw out NYC's and all other "may issue" permit schemes(CA, MD, NJ, etc). Now, throughout the entire US, no reason is needed for a carry permit. If you meet the legal requirements, then you must be issued one. NY still has some of the more strict laws as far as that goes, but they are currently be challenged in court and there is a good likelihood that the laws will eventually be partially overturned.

pandr32

(11,817 posts)
17. That "2nd Amendment crap" is exactly that.
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 03:29 PM
Feb 2023

The U.S. Constitution, Article 1: Section 8 makes it clear what a militia is, how it is organized, armed, disciplined, and funded, and the 2nd Amendment relates to it.

There is a very readable book titled, 'The Second Amendment; A Biography' by Michael Waldman. It covers the history, interpretations, changing attitudes, and so on from the roots.

The entire issue has been perverted--one corruption at a time.

pandr32

(11,817 posts)
38. Those Justices are paid to be adept at reinterpreting laws and traditions
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 04:54 PM
Feb 2023

...by certain special interest groups. They have sold themselves out.
I don't know how we can get back to before the modern invention of "the right to carry". We have deviated so far off the track.

NickB79

(19,374 posts)
39. We don't even use the myriad gun laws we have now
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 05:12 PM
Feb 2023

It's infuriating that so many of the shooters, like the most recent one in Michigan, had previous run-ins with law enforcement that could have brought felony charges, but were never imprisoned.

We could, and should, add significant new gun laws. At the very least, universal background checks and red flag laws nationwide would, in theory, help significantly to reduce straw purchases that feed guns to the streets, and keep guns in the hands of domestic violence abusers. And this could be done without even banning or confiscating law-abiding citizen's firearms. Again though, you have to assume they'll be enforced, which is becoming more dubious daily, it seems.

Here's a crazy thought: we legalize marijuana use nationally and release all the poor saps serving time for that non-violent crime. Now that we have thousands of open beds in our prison system, stop plea-dealing the violent criminals who use guns in crimes and put them away for 10 years, no probation, as the laws already allow. And while we're at it, give the ATF billions to hire new agents, much like we're doing with the IRS, because they've been understaffed for decades.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
42. If we were serious about dealing with guns
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 05:49 PM
Feb 2023

We would crack down hard on people using guns in crimes. This is something we could do right now but we wont because it would require jailing large numbers of people. Penalties for possession will be less than using them in a crime so we are looking at a slap on the wrist for illegal possession of a firearm. Banning guns is going to be a long process and we would probably get more traction if we went after the trash that are committing crimes with guns.

sanatanadharma

(3,851 posts)
45. Further, every gun used illegally must be destroyed!
Wed Feb 15, 2023, 07:06 PM
Feb 2023

Hell, I'd destroy every gun simply for being left on a toilet or counter. "Your gun was stolen? Obviously you can't handle guns! We are going to confiscate and destroy the rest of yours."

Make wanting/ owning guns a sign of immorality or stupidity.

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