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In It to Win It

(8,305 posts)
Thu Oct 13, 2022, 07:37 PM Oct 2022

Following Supreme Court's Lead, Judge Finds Right to Remove Serial Numbers From Guns

Slate

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For decades, federal law has forbidden gun owners from scratching out the serial numbers that manufacturers are legally required to place on firearms. The reason is obvious: These serial numbers help state and federal law enforcement trace guns that are used in crimes and identify suspected shooters. Indeed, the only apparent reason anyone would remove a serial number is to avoid becoming a suspect after their gun is used illegally. On Wednesday, however, a federal judge ruled that the law prohibiting alteration of serial numbers violates the Second Amendment. Why? Because serial numbers were virtually nonexistent when the amendment was ratified in 1791, so the government has no power to mandate them today.

This decision in United States v. Price by U.S. District Judge Joseph R. Goodwin, a Bill Clinton appointee, may sound shocking. But it is a perfectly plausible application of the Supreme Court’s June ruling in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen. In that case, Justice Clarence Thomas declared all gun restrictions presumptively unconstitutional if they infringe on “the individual right to armed self-defense.” (The Constitution says nothing about “self-defense,” but Thomas gleaned this right from its penumbra.) A gun restriction may only survive legal scrutiny, the justice declared, if it had an “analogue” in 1791, when the Second Amendment was ratified, or 1868, when it was imposed on the states. The burden falls on the government to prove the existence of a historical analogue.

Thomas’ test has already wreaked havoc in the lower courts. One judge has struck down a Texas law that prohibits 18 to 20-year-olds from carrying a handgun outside the home. People under 21 are significantly more likely to commit gun homicides—but in Bruen, Thomas announced that courts may never consider the real-world, life-saving impact of gun safety laws when gauging their constitutionality. A different Texas judge invalidated a federal law barring individuals from purchasing a handgun while they’re under indictment, even for a violent felony offense. Just last week, another judge struck down New York’s ban on concealed carry in airports, train stations, domestic violence shelters, summer camps, the subway, and other “sensitive locations.” Now Goodwin, who sits in West Virginia, has joined the chorus of lower court judges who feel that Bruen obliges them to strike down longstanding, widely accepted firearm laws.

Goodwin’s conclusion might sound bizarre, but his analysis closely follows Thomas’ test.
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Following Supreme Court's Lead, Judge Finds Right to Remove Serial Numbers From Guns (Original Post) In It to Win It Oct 2022 OP
Things are so fucked up it's inconceivable NewHendoLib Oct 2022 #1
+1000 Rhiannon12866 Oct 2022 #10
Unbelievable... Happy, law enforcement? These jackasses you helped elect appointed these moron hlthe2b Oct 2022 #2
A pro-criminal judge. OAITW r.2.0 Oct 2022 #3
He isn't. He's applying the Supreme Court's decision in Bruen In It to Win It Oct 2022 #7
Obvious? Straw Man Oct 2022 #4
Decent argument, but this ... Hugh_Lebowski Oct 2022 #5
So ... Straw Man Oct 2022 #8
Your first paragraph ... Yes :) Hugh_Lebowski Oct 2022 #9
Or what the NRA might call: Turbineguy Oct 2022 #6
I saw the 1791 argument earlier. DFW Oct 2022 #11
The proper response to Uncle Clarence is to ban all weapons produced since 1868. Hermit-The-Prog Oct 2022 #12

Straw Man

(6,626 posts)
4. Obvious?
Thu Oct 13, 2022, 07:57 PM
Oct 2022
The reason is obvious: These serial numbers help state and federal law enforcement trace guns that are used in crimes and identify suspected shooters.

Uh ... no, they don't. The only way that would work is if you (a) committed a crime in a state that has mandatory gun registration (many don't), (b) used your own registered gun, and (c) left the gun at the scene of the crime or somewhere else where it could be easily discovered. It's a pretty implausible scenario all around.

Indeed, the only apparent reason anyone would remove a serial number is to avoid becoming a suspect after their gun is used illegally.

The real reason people remove serial numbers is so that a gun that they have stolen can't be matched to the police hot-sheet of stolen guns. Chances are good that said individuals are facing other more serious charges than defacing a serial number, and in any case it would be difficult to prove who actually did the scratching-out. I suppose making possession of a gun without a serial number could be made an offense, but enforcement would be tricky due to the fact that many pre-1968 firearms have no serial numbers to begin with.

That said, it's a stupid ruling, but certainly not a very consequential one in the big picture.
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
5. Decent argument, but this ...
Thu Oct 13, 2022, 08:04 PM
Oct 2022

"I suppose making possession of a gun without a serial number could be made an offense, but enforcement would be tricky due to the fact that many pre-1968 firearms have no serial numbers to begin with."

That's what the law was that was just struck down. And it specifically applied to the case where the gun should have one due to its provenance, but it's been defaced/removed.

Straw Man

(6,626 posts)
8. So ...
Fri Oct 14, 2022, 01:09 AM
Oct 2022

... the issue isn't so much the right to remove a serial number as it is the right to possess a gun from which the serial number has been removed. The headline and excerpt, then, are misleading. I must admit that I hadn't read the linked article. Actually, in that context the judge's decision makes more sense. How is a pre-1968 gun with no serial number more of a danger to society than a post-1968 gun from which the serial number has been removed?

For the sake of argument, how about a federal law requiring all guns to have serial numbers, with the option of getting a federally licensed gun dealer to inscribe one on any firearms that are legally possessed but have no number?

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
9. Your first paragraph ... Yes :)
Fri Oct 14, 2022, 01:19 AM
Oct 2022

Second one ... your hypothetical argument seems to still have the problems you outlined in your earlier post.

W/O formal registration (and one might argue record of ballistic data to pair with the serial number when registering), just having a number stamped on a gun isn't really of that much practical use.

Other than returning a stolen gun to its original owner, which I guess has some value, actually.

DFW

(54,501 posts)
11. I saw the 1791 argument earlier.
Fri Oct 14, 2022, 02:01 AM
Oct 2022

“If we didn’t need it in 1791, we certainly don’t need it now.

My answer was that in 1791, we didn’t need an FAA to require regular inspections of jet engines. Does that mean we don’t need them now, either?

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