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H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:52 PM Aug 2022

Remember

" No no remember, remember
The fifth of November."
-- John Lennon, Remember


I was talking to a friend who is impatient for the DOJ to indict Donald Trump. "It is clear that they have enough evidence to prove the crimes listed in the affidavit," said he. "So what is taking so long?"

Some times, I said, the answer is so obvious that we don't recognize it as being on the surface. The DOJ has noted that their investigation is in an early stage. Thus, as they already have enough evidence to convict Trump on those crimes -- beyond any reasonable doubt -- it can only mean that they are investigating other, related crimes. And that has to do with who Trump shared the intelligence documents with.

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Remember (Original Post) H2O Man Aug 2022 OP
I assume they already have a lot of information that we know nothing about kentuck Aug 2022 #1
Right. H2O Man Aug 2022 #4
Bingo. They've already got tfg squarely in the wrong. crickets Aug 2022 #17
Exactly! H2O Man Aug 2022 #20
An interesting side trip to consider is that all the people who were shown the documents, who wiggs Aug 2022 #34
Great point! H2O Man Aug 2022 #38
While "reasonable doubt" is usually the standard for conviction MissMillie Aug 2022 #2
Definitely. H2O Man Aug 2022 #6
And Remember That malaise Aug 2022 #3
Yes. H2O Man Aug 2022 #7
Many of his cult will be jumping ship shortly malaise Aug 2022 #11
Hope so! Saoirse9 Aug 2022 #12
That is the nature H2O Man Aug 2022 #23
Other, related crimes? Maybe. Other people involved with the crimes. Almost certainly...nt Wounded Bear Aug 2022 #5
Exactly! H2O Man Aug 2022 #8
Most investigations are "bottom up." This one might develop a "top down" element... Wounded Bear Aug 2022 #9
Trump is the very H2O Man Aug 2022 #13
I agree with this Saoirse9 Aug 2022 #10
Sociopathy. H2O Man Aug 2022 #14
Are sociopaths delusional? Saoirse9 Aug 2022 #16
Under pressure, H2O Man Aug 2022 #18
Diagnostic of Sociopathy? Saoirse9 Aug 2022 #36
Oh, for sure! H2O Man Aug 2022 #39
We the public got to see the giddiness. Reports from people inside show the episodes of psychosis. Hekate Aug 2022 #60
I've mentioned Michael Stone, H2O Man Aug 2022 #70
You know WaterMan when you get right down to it malaise Aug 2022 #64
Oh, exactly. Exactly! H2O Man Aug 2022 #71
You know WaterMan when you get right down to it malaise Aug 2022 #65
K&R spanone Aug 2022 #15
Thank you! H2O Man Aug 2022 #19
When you strike at the king, you must kill him. Ray Bruns Aug 2022 #21
Yep! H2O Man Aug 2022 #24
And they will because they must. Our democracy depends on it Joinfortmill Aug 2022 #28
I agree. H2O Man Aug 2022 #78
Yup. Tick Tock. Joinfortmill Aug 2022 #22
"Tick Tock"!!! H2O Man Aug 2022 #26
I'm still thinking they have backend evidence from... IrishAfricanAmerican Aug 2022 #25
I agree. H2O Man Aug 2022 #27
The only criticism I can think of for AG Garland... Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2022 #29
Interesting! H2O Man Aug 2022 #31
Before he became a Judge BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #45
Right. H2O Man Aug 2022 #50
At some point the question has to be, "Have you ever known or talked with TFG?" PurgedVoter Aug 2022 #30
Right. H2O Man Aug 2022 #32
Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. OMGWTF Aug 2022 #33
True fact! H2O Man Aug 2022 #40
Does arresting, charging and trying Trump for crimes having a 99.9% probable conviction........ jaxexpat Aug 2022 #35
It is an H2O Man Aug 2022 #41
I get it. Cattle are predictably unpredictable. Like juries, I expect. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #44
I like and respect H2O Man Aug 2022 #48
The " I guess you're saying" was not meant to place words in your mouth or condescending to you. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #55
Okay. H2O Man Aug 2022 #69
Guineas eat ticks Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2022 #76
My father got H2O Man Aug 2022 #77
"Is there some legal gimmickry beyond the understanding of mere mortals at play here? " BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #46
The chicken or the egg. Who's first when neither can exist without the other. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #51
Since grand jury proceedings are secret BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #54
I plead Guilty: of fictionalized concepts for how justice works. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #56
"it takes 20 months and a televised congressional investigation" BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #57
I rounded the time the wrong way and should have used 19 months instead of 20. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #58
Again, unless you are working for DOJ BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #59
Thank you for your time. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #61
I am glad to be retired! BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #62
I just can't agree more. jaxexpat Aug 2022 #63
Well perhaps fortunately BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #66
Thank you for the wealth of information you've laid out in this thread! Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2022 #79
You are welcome BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #80
Got a match? Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2022 #37
Oh dear! H2O Man Aug 2022 #42
I don't know the origin Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2022 #43
Damn that's good malaise Aug 2022 #52
I'm waiting for RICO charges Nictuku Aug 2022 #47
That is certainly H2O Man Aug 2022 #49
We already know he broke his oath of office and only a traitor Emile Aug 2022 #53
That's true. H2O Man Aug 2022 #72
Only problem is, new crimes are being committed almost daily ecstatic Aug 2022 #67
But as we know BumRushDaShow Aug 2022 #68
Interesting. H2O Man Aug 2022 #74
They also need to make certain that the evidence Ilsa Aug 2022 #73
Right. H2O Man Aug 2022 #75
I wish I could do that. Ilsa Aug 2022 #81

kentuck

(111,252 posts)
1. I assume they already have a lot of information that we know nothing about
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:57 PM
Aug 2022

They are nowhere near finished with this investigation. The more the public knows, the more difficult it will be for the Republicans to sweep under the rug and forget about.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
4. Right.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:06 PM
Aug 2022

We've ony seen the tip od the ice cube, as the old saying goes. I suspect the FBI knows the people around him that he provided access to. People who have no business seeing them. People who have connections with foreign countries. And Trump or a family member may have shared classified information with foreign interests.

crickets

(26,057 posts)
17. Bingo. They've already got tfg squarely in the wrong.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:39 PM
Aug 2022

I think they're going after everyone else involved as well. GOOD.

wiggs

(7,861 posts)
34. An interesting side trip to consider is that all the people who were shown the documents, who
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:52 PM
Aug 2022

bought the documents, or who merely know about them...OWN TRUMP lock, stock, and barrel. They can choose to talk or choose to gain from that knowledge. Or both.

Mobsters and traitors all own each other. I imagine that IC may be talking with some of them, or surveilling them. We don't know for sure that anyone saw them (IC might know) but we also know that he's capable of any kind of treachery, grift, or self-indulgence.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
38. Great point!
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 04:59 PM
Aug 2022

That is the nature of the game Trump plays. Very important point, and I really appreciate you mentioning it!

MissMillie

(38,687 posts)
2. While "reasonable doubt" is usually the standard for conviction
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:04 PM
Aug 2022

This time the DOJ has to have it beyond any tiny shadow of a doubt.

To get ANYTHING wrong on this one would be catastrophic.

And add that to the fact that DOJ has multiple investigations going on... due diligence can be time-consuming.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
6. Definitely.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:08 PM
Aug 2022

In most cases, a DOJ prosecutor sets the bar at a 95% chance for conviction before indicting. In this one, it has to be 99.99%.

malaise

(270,709 posts)
3. And Remember That
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:05 PM
Aug 2022

the J6 Committee will be following the money when they resume hearings next month.
All his crimes will have fleshy evidence.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
7. Yes.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:11 PM
Aug 2022

As much as I'm enjoying August, I can't wait for the J6 Committee to do another presentation. The previous hearings attracted a large audience. But the future ones will attract a much wider audience!

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
23. That is the nature
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:48 PM
Aug 2022

of a cult. The leader is viewed as all-powerful. Consequences, such as arrest, reinforce that view -- "they are persecuting the holy one" -- as cult members cannot process incoming information in a rational, sane manner.

Still, I can say that malaise is correct. The outer levels of the cult will fall away.

Wounded Bear

(59,056 posts)
9. Most investigations are "bottom up." This one might develop a "top down" element...
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:14 PM
Aug 2022

corner trump and he'll sing like a bird, I don't doubt. He is, at his core, a coward.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
13. Trump is the very
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:23 PM
Aug 2022

definition of a coward. A cowardly bully. He follows a very limited range when confronted. Blame other. Go on the offense when possible. And blame any- and every one else when caught.

Considering that the FBI knew he had documents in his bedroom, it is possible that someone close to him was talking with investigators. I hope it was a family member. But, exactly as you noted, Trump will sacrifice anyone to try to save himself.

Saoirse9

(3,703 posts)
10. I agree with this
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:15 PM
Aug 2022

It isn’t enough to charge him with theft of government documents. If he’s conspiring with our enemies we need that buttoned up really tight.

Espionage might be harder to prove.

Theft of documents is a piece of cake.

That part of the crime is already proved beyond any shadow of doubt.

I do have a question for you though. If you use you psychologist skills what do you think motivated him to steal documents? To sell, to feel relevant after losing the election, to take revenge for the election loss, or all 3?

I have always noticed that he thinks of the presidency and anything he comes in contact with while president as his personal property and right to OWN it.

What specific psychological disorder or disease are we witnessing right now?

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
14. Sociopathy.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:05 PM
Aug 2022

Everything Trump does fits snuggly into his being a sociopath. Nothing about him falls outside of that. Nothing.

It has been reported that Trump took documents from before he was president. As I've said, these are related to the Russian-2016 campaign investigation. Keep in mind that Kash Patel had threatened to publish them on the internet shortly before the FBI executed the warrant. Trump wanted these documents to prove that the "Deep State" conspires against him.

This fits snuggly with his thinking that everything belongs to him. He had no idea of what a president could or could not do. He assumed that he had unlimited power, as his behavior showed. And he believes that as an ex-president -- who still denies that Joe Biden kicked his ass -- that he retains that level of power.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
18. Under pressure,
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:43 PM
Aug 2022

sociopaths can have brief episodes of psychosis. But most of the time, they simply do not believe that rules and laws apply to them. Breaking those makes them giddy.

In this case, for example, Trump didn't care that it was against the law for him to have the classified documents. There are reports that he has said, "These are mine." That is diagnostic.

Saoirse9

(3,703 posts)
36. Diagnostic of Sociopathy?
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 04:14 PM
Aug 2022

Or delusion?

I’m going to post something from my favorite Twitter follow. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Lord of the Rings and Gollum. If you are this is hilarious.


?s=21&t=R3gIXo0nXyXHvx2Yd8oDTA


?s=21&t=R3gIXo0nXyXHvx2Yd8oDTA

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
39. Oh, for sure!
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 05:04 PM
Aug 2022

Dr. Bandy Lee recognized that the "duty to warn" didn't equal the duty to diagnose. I respect that. And I know she enjoyed my crossing that line in our interviews. Trump is a true sociopath. Mary Trump has said the same thing: sociopath.

Hekate

(91,672 posts)
60. We the public got to see the giddiness. Reports from people inside show the episodes of psychosis.
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 12:44 AM
Aug 2022

Your diagnostic skills far surpass mine, but everything I’ve seen and heard long ago led me to believe that TFG is one scary dude.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
70. I've mentioned Michael Stone,
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 12:33 PM
Aug 2022

a professor of psychiatry at Columbia, a numbe4r of times on this forum over the years. He has authored books such as "Personality Disorders: Treatable and Untreatable," that are essential reading in my opinion. But my favorite is "The Anatomy of Evil" (Prometheus; 2009). In that context, "evil" is not a religious term, but rather one that is extremely offensive to the general public.

There is a scale of how offensive an individual is, based upon things such as cruelty. Some sociopaths delight in the suffering of their victims. Others simply never think in those terms -- they lack the ability to even consider the wants and needs of others, including victims and non-victims. Trump ranks very high. In some cases, he wants to torture his "enemies." But most of the time, he does not recognize others as distinct human beings. No where is this more obvious than with the crowds that used to gather to hear him speak. It was "his" crowd's size, not a collection of people. It was pulling the wool over their eyes, not actually caring about them. No interest in the quality of his supporters' day to day lives. That is diagnostic. And dangerous.

malaise

(270,709 posts)
64. You know WaterMan when you get right down to it
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 07:34 AM
Aug 2022

the Slobfather never thought the words You're Fired would apply to him.
He has gotten away with murder literally and figuratively for way too long. Time's Up!

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
71. Oh, exactly. Exactly!
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 12:44 PM
Aug 2022

Dr. Lee was absolutely right when she said impeachment without conviction would be processed differently by Donald Trump than by any normal human being. We find that same inability in others of his ilk, from Manson getting away with things that should have put him back in prison circa-1967-'68, to Hitler before WW2. They get away with stuff, and either don't get called on it, or get off when they are. It emboldens them to take another step up in the game they play.

After his pre-politics experiences -- the bankrupt billion-air head -- and living in luxury while engaging in crimes, we know the list of offenses he engaged in, and has gotten away with. That is exactly why he believed he could pull off January 6. It is why he stole those documents.

But as many of us know, that moral arc of the universe eventually catches up. That makes me happy.

malaise

(270,709 posts)
65. You know WaterMan when you get right down to it
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 07:34 AM
Aug 2022

the Slobfather never thought the words You're Fired would apply to him.
He has gotten away with murder literally and figuratively for way too long. Time's Up!

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
26. "Tick Tock"!!!
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:51 PM
Aug 2022

As Steve Miller sang, "Time keeps on slipping into the future."

Call it speculation on my part, but I bet Trump is difficult to be around as that clock ticks.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
27. I agree.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:53 PM
Aug 2022

He had more than FBI documents there. Definitely some from the CIA, at very least. Thus, the current investigation involved more than the FBI, per damage assessment. I think it is far worse than we know.

Hermit-The-Prog

(34,131 posts)
29. The only criticism I can think of for AG Garland...
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:03 PM
Aug 2022

AG Garland is used to the bench -- slow, meticulous, methodical. I would expect any case he brings to be sufficiently air-tight to withstand his own review as if he were the judge in the case. I suspect he will want the whole picture before moving on it, rather than taking pieces at a time.

My feeling -- granted, from ignorance -- is of some urgency to get some of the bad actors off the stage quickly. I hope there is a lot going on that we don't see and the vast experience and information at Garland's disposal allows him to get it right -- in law and time. I also hope there are not enough trumpers within the DOJ to significantly hinder the investigations.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
31. Interesting!
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:29 PM
Aug 2022

My favorite Attorney General was Robert Kennedy. I admit that I am not entirely objective. However, I love how he recognized organized crime as a threat to the country. And his aggressively going after them.

Garland is, as you accurately described, a very different type of man, and thus Attorney General. I had questions about how aggressively he would allow the DOJ/FBI to investigate Trump. I view Trump as being the same as a mob boss. But I have been pleased with how he is allowing this investigation to unfold.

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
45. Before he became a Judge
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 06:28 PM
Aug 2022

he spent 9 years in DOJ in various positions under Carter and Clinton (with some private practice in between). So he knows "both sides". And as people have noted previously, he was involved in both the Unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) and Oklahoma City bombing (Timothy McVeigh) prosecutions while in DOJ (not on the bench).

PurgedVoter

(2,239 posts)
30. At some point the question has to be, "Have you ever known or talked with TFG?"
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:05 PM
Aug 2022

Except, since the rule of fecal transformation applies to everything connected to TFG, there is no point in asking if a person had a connection to TFG since anyone connected to TFG cannot tell what the color of the sky is while looking up at it and if they could they wouldn't tell the truth.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
32. Right.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:37 PM
Aug 2022

As we've seen from the J6 Committee hearings, a number of people from Trump's administration have been willing to tell about his misdeeds in detail. The FBI investigation on the classified documents included at least one source who told them that he had some of those documents in his bedroom. Hopefully, only a limited number of individuals were close enough to Trump's bedroom to know this.

It appears that Trump was unaware that any of the people around him were talking with the FBI. Hence, in the days after the warrant was executed, the reports that he was asking, "Who is wearing the wire?" On one hand, he knew that unsealing the affidavit would cause real problems for him. But on the other hand, he hoped for enough to be included to allow him to figure it out.

There aren't a lot of people willing to go to jail for him within his inner circle these days. He can't pardon them, as he did Manafort, Bannon, and Stone.

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
35. Does arresting, charging and trying Trump for crimes having a 99.9% probable conviction........
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 04:08 PM
Aug 2022

preclude his indictment for additional crimes he committed when evidence of them also becomes "airtight"? Would the FBI be forced to close their investigations? Would it somehow prevent the indictment of other players? Would it damage the state's case against other players crimes, evidence of which was discovered simultaneously and in the course of prosecuting Trump for the current "sure thing"? I wouldn't think so.

Where is there the logic behind your statement? Is there some legal gimmickry beyond the understanding of mere mortals at play here?
Does the DOJ think he'll skate on what may turn out to be interpreted as flimsy evidence? If that's the case then either they're ALL incompetent/corrupt or the law is meaningless when it comes to prosecuting high roller politicos, fascism is here already, too bad.

My logic runs like this:
When you have a herd of 100 cattle break out of their pasture, scattering all over creation, you don't wait until you have all of them in hand before you start re-pasturing them. You mend the fence and go after them, penning them up as you find them, simultaneously.
No rancher with any sense would ever take the position (your position as I understand it):
I can't put these 10 cows I have found back into the pasture until I find all the other 90 cows and put them all back at once.

So, what is it? Corrupt legal/court system? Incompetence in high places? It's just impossible for some reason nobody will admit to? Or is it simply a fact that the DOJ can't raise cattle?

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
41. It is an
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 05:32 PM
Aug 2022

imperfect justice system that we have. (Or "they" have.) And that's from the local level up. I've worked on court cases on the local, state, and federal levels, and recognize some of the problem is found in the people involved, and some is the nature of the system. I've seen justice denied, delayed, and/or delivered.

I disagree with Bill Barr's decision to rule that the DOJ not charge a sitting president. In part, because of Barr's political agenda to promote an "imperial presidency" beyond what Schlesinger warned of in his 1973. And part was a system that had gone by this concept well before Barr.

Likewise, I don't think the DOJ should delay an indictment, because of the November elections. Trump's not running. Trump is more of a national security threat than, say, the Unabomber was. It didn't matter that his arrest might upset militia-minded voters.

I might prefer it go faster, but I can appreciate that an investigation with that many witnesses, potential targets, and those who are clearly guilty as sin -- along with on-going threat assessments -- might take longer. Will it result in justice? Delayed? Denied. We will have to wait and see.

As far as cattle getting out, I should note that no one on DU has had more experience -- good and bad -- in that field. Imagine skipping school in 6th grade, watching Captain Kangaroo, and having your father's herd looking in the window? The question becomes do you try to put them in and fix the fence? Or risk a neighbor calling your father at work, and him hurrying home? Or working on John & Yoko's farm, and spending unlimited hours getting heifers back out of the woods? Having a bull run over you when you try to get him back? To have "beefalo" from a neighbors' farm constantly destroying your pastures, because the grass looked greener? Or finally, being arrested by state police for cattle rustling, being held for two hours in a detention room -- including having two investigators stick their heads in, and one say, "We have ways of making 'tough guys' talk!" Only to resolve it within two minutes when actual interrogation began, and all charges dropped? Being left to walk the 23 miles home, as you were "no longer in custody"? Ha!

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
44. I get it. Cattle are predictably unpredictable. Like juries, I expect.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 06:17 PM
Aug 2022

But, to the point, I guess you're saying that, for some unseeable reason, the DOJ doesn't think it has a 99.9% case against Trump at this time. I understand it but I don't accept it. I've stood before a magistrate for judgement in a divorce settlement knowing for a fact that the guy judging me had regular notorious orgies with hookers and local movers and shakers in my own little western Kentucky town. The depth of the insufferability is heartbreaking. The hypocrisy, soul-killing. And still, I have the vision of a city on a hill.
I don't have the personal makeup that would exercise self-control or make the effort to forget.

12 hours on a tractor and come home to a yard filled with cattle milling around, eating and trampling the wife's flowers. At least there were no traffic incidents as most of my neighbors didn't want to damage their automobiles with cattle. My grandfather had told that moron, "wire on the inside of the fence, not the roadside side, cattle will push steeples out first day the post dries out". The moron didn't listen, stupid moron. It was way past supper time before I got a shower.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
48. I like and respect
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 07:12 PM
Aug 2022

you and your opinions. But I will point out that the "toy think ...." or "you're saying...." is the quickest route to dailure in ann 8th grade debate. I'm good with you expressing your opinion, and my expressing mine, without going there.

Now, picture if you will, living on the dead end of a seasonal dirt road in the wilderness. The one where my brother-in-law and his cousin were caught red-handed butchering one of the neighbor's beefalo. The one time a trooper took that road that year. A $20,000 fine. But forget that, I'm talking pigs now. Imagine trying to return an 800-lb boar -- smarter than most people, 9ncluding Trump's circle -- through the forest on a rocky mountain-top. Call it speculation, but I doubt that any other DUer had that experience. And in frustration and bruises, had to call my father-in-law, nasty bastard that he was. And I have witnesses about how extra mean and vicious he could be. But that day, he drove up a farm road, through the fields, and met me at the forest's edge. Then showed me the easiest way to return an 800-lb boar to its pen. I think Ringo's "It Don't Come Easy" applies to0 that.

Now, back to telling people what they are saying ..... I'm confident that a simple reading of my posts here, in this very conversation, included mention that the DOJ does have a policy of not indicting before an important election. I noted that Trump isn't running, but they may well be considering his involvement and influence to be a reason to wait until the 5th of November, per the Lennon qute art the top of the OP.

There are many possibilities. I believe that you have expressed your opinion that the DOJ won't do anything, as well as the idea that anything pther than an immediate indictment is somehow unjust. I fully agree that the first option may be correct. I do not think so, but definitely recognize that. But it isn't the only possibility.

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
55. The " I guess you're saying" was not meant to place words in your mouth or condescending to you.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 07:57 PM
Aug 2022

It was my opening approach to the thought I was trying to convey with these infernal "words". I'm not sure what the "toy think" is alluding to but it was not meant as anything other than an exchange of ideas. I was terrible at debate because I found so many of my opponents ridiculously smug. But I had to wait until high school before I appreciated passive aggression as an essential go-to for certain personalities of intelligent and argumentative people. Present company excepted.
I'm still wanting someone to seriously reply to the question of the DOJ's delay, with logic which explains away my assertions. You may not be inclined for that and that's fine, really.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
69. Okay.
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 12:08 PM
Aug 2022

Before we get to the possible "delay," I'm confident that you are on the edge of your seat, wondering about how I do chasing chickens. You may not be aware that I raise Guinea fowl as well. I am aware that there is a scene in the movie "Rocky" of him chasing chickens to improve his footwork. I will go on record, however, as someone who hasbeen associated with the great sport for 60+ years, as someone who has never watched a "Rocky" movie.

More, my adult sons think it is a giggle how their old man -- despite his physical limitations -- can catch chickens and/or Guinea fowl. Now, you might well be thinking I'm being an obnoxious jackass. I often am. But the reason I have spoken of cows, pigs, chickens, and Guinea fowl is because one must use very different tactics for catching each one. If a bull is outside the fence, you use a very different approach than you would to catch a chicken.

Decades ago, one of my uncles was consider by many to be the best detective in the country. He was a legend for his ability to investigate organized crime. He taught classes for both the FBI and CIA in things such as crime scene analysis. You can imagine how hard it was for my brothers and I to but pot as teenagers. But that's another story. As an adult and social worker who frequently was involved in forensic cases, I would talk to my uncle about all types of things. That included my frequent frustrations with courts and prosecutors.

It is from that foundation that I will say that there may be a "delay" and there may not be one. It is only speculation for you or I to say if there is or is not a delay. At very best, we can only say that we think there may -- or may not -- be a delay. However, what I have said is that the DOJ does have a policy of not doing high-profile indictments close to election time. Hence, no matter if you or I agree with that policy in general or specific to this case, I think you several times asked question has indeed been answered. That is one possibility.

The other possibility -- regarding the federal grand jury -- has been mentioned below, in detail. Again, none of us know for sure. We can only speculate. It is only speculation to say there is or is not a delay. Catching organized crime is even more difficult than cows, pigs, or chickens. I'd even put it above catching Guinea fowl.

Hermit-The-Prog

(34,131 posts)
76. Guineas eat ticks
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 01:56 PM
Aug 2022

I thought Guineas were too noisy until I had 19 peacocks in a tree right beside the house. It was an amazing audio experience when they all fired up at once. Years later, I'm down to 2 ducks and 2 dogs, now.

You can't push a hog. Well, you can, but steering while pushing is just frustrating.

Your threads often seem to turn into tapestries with surprising warps and wefts.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
77. My father got
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 02:08 PM
Aug 2022

me raising chickens when I was seven. He always said that Guinea howl made some of the best watch-dogs!

The postcard that Jon included with the "Imagine" album -- though a hilarious reasponse to a picture on Paul's earlier solo album -- did not illustrate the propr way to move a pig. I had a DU-lurker e-mail me, to ask how it is done? With a pail of corn over it's head, and a nail to poke its hindquarters with if it stops.

My father-in-law raised peacocks on his farm. I've raised ducks, geese, and turkeys over the decades. And been attacked by a swan. Not so bad as being run over and stomped into prickerbushes by a bull, though.

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
46. "Is there some legal gimmickry beyond the understanding of mere mortals at play here? "
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 06:50 PM
Aug 2022

Yeah, the "legal gimmickry" is that neither the AG nor DOJ "indicts". A federal grand jury does. There could be anywhere up to 20+ people impaneled on it and they meet certain times of a month for maybe a week or two to hear the evidence and question witnesses. It is a "one sided" prosecutor's show, where they have to convince the jury that charges should be brought and why.

They are not like criminal or civil juries that meet every day and are treated to a prosecution and defense back and forth, and then deliberating towards a verdict, with a judge shepherding the process. They might be kept in service for a year or more depending on what they were tasked with.

One of my co-workers was on one here in Philly a number of years ago and he had explained the odd process and frequency of meeting for the one he was part of. His service was on and off for a year.

Here's a brief blip about them - https://www.npr.org/2005/10/26/4975837/how-federal-grand-juries-work

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
51. The chicken or the egg. Who's first when neither can exist without the other.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 07:34 PM
Aug 2022

Much like the grand jury indictment. It would not exist without the presentation provided by the DOJ.
The question remains clear. Why hasn't the DOJ given the merits of its case over to the grand jury so they can determine if a trial may be warranted?

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
54. Since grand jury proceedings are secret
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 07:47 PM
Aug 2022

how do you know they haven't presented stuff already?

If, as the affidavit and search warrants were indicating, there were 3 categories of criminal code that may have been violated, then within those, there may be a potential for a long list of individual charges.

So that stuff may be rolling into the jur(y)(ies) as we type.

As part of that evidence, they subpoena witnesses and you only hear from the boastful ones who run to the media to let people know but others comply with the subpoena, show up when told (or schedule however they need to) and testify/answer questions. This doesn't happen all on one day or even in one week.

IMHO there is too much fictional TV "crime show" watching going on with DU.

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
56. I plead Guilty: of fictionalized concepts for how justice works.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 08:32 PM
Aug 2022

The key is, its what opened mine eyes, it's secret, right? This Grand Jury and its relationship to indictments. Until it actually happens we won't know what's happening. I get it. It's liberating, this clarity. I mean it won't even intimate its existence until it bursts forth as a fully grown indictment or fizzle away in the dark as a refusal to indict.
Fact is they could have already heard and rejected the DOJ's argument since sometime in early 2021. Except it probably didn't happen like that because of Garlands reputation for thoroughness. His tendency to delay until he's certain to convince the grand jury with the evidence of his case. How'm I doing so far?

And here I am wondering, haunted maybe, like most people I expect, if it would not be better for the mid terms if there was more openness about just what they're using as evidence that it takes 20 months and a televised congressional investigation to jumpstart the thing. Is Alfred Hitchcock directing this?

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
57. "it takes 20 months and a televised congressional investigation"
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 09:07 PM
Aug 2022

Sarcasm noted but you proved my point about "fictionalized'.

"20 months ago was when"?

December 2020.

A time when the Senate was still under GOP control until 2 special elections in early January 2021 in GA with 2 new (D) Senators, resulted in a month of wrangling with Turtle in order get control of the Chair positions. And since the Senate does confirmations, they had to wait until the ridiculous "agreement" was put into place regarding who was "in charge".

Garland wasn't confirmed until March 10, 2021.

There are 94 U.S. Attorneys who are under DOJ - most of whom were 45-apppointees "20 months ago", and every single one had to be given their walking papers and new ones appointed AND CONFIRMED, and that process is still going on.

The U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, who would be the primary one handling the J6 cases, was finally confirmed at the end of October 2021 - 10 months ago. There are still a pile who haven't been confirmed and/or are awaiting a nomination.

The J6 Committee didn't even exist until June 30, 2021. They held their first, largely-forgotten hearing a month later on July 27, 2021, and their 2nd hearing (first in prime time) came almost a year later on June 9, 2022, just 2 months ago.

So instead of the exaggeration, there is a need to really go back and do some research regarding what went on from January 20, 2021 12:01 pm when Joe Biden took over the office of the President and had the power to appoint, and where we are now. There was quite a lot that happened, not the least of which was a 2nd impeachment a week after the January 6th 2021 insurrection (before the inauguration), with a trial that happened in February 2021.

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
58. I rounded the time the wrong way and should have used 19 months instead of 20.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 10:21 PM
Aug 2022

But my point is not about what did happen but about what didn't. Why the excessive duration? It did require a televised congressional investigation to light the fire under the electorate since there were no court proceedings to focus the public's attentions.

You outlined the order of events accurately, I'm sure, but where was the effort to perform the actions necessary in such fashion as to respect the emergency which it was/ is? If there were procedural delays were they due to partisanship or the process itself? All I'm asking is that you devine the motives of those people who could have expedited things but didn't. Reading into the minds and exposing the inner workings of a person's emotional and intellectual chemistry isn't all that difficult surely. That, Bum, was sarcasm.

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
59. Again, unless you are working for DOJ
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 11:11 PM
Aug 2022

which has over 100,000 employees, you have no idea what they have or have not been doing. It's idiotic to get out in the press for the benefit of DU and lay out a criminal case to be discussed by the teevee pundits so that the other side knows how to defend themselves.

This current issue is dealing with a civilian (regulatory) agency - NARA - who has attempted for the past almost 2 years, to get their documents back. Every agency and Department (including the WH) has a "Records Control Schedule" of what is and is not a "record", and how long it is to be held before destruction (or whether it would be held "permanently" ). We had to have annual training on that law. There are NARA warehouses located all around the country where documents that are archived, per their schedules, are stored, and everything is tracked.

The Schedules are listed here - https://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/rcs/schedules/index.html

Someone had to go through that schedule for the Office of the President to see what is and is not covered and then do an inventory, cross-checking with the curators. And once NARA got some stuff back, they had to sort through it and determine which agency/Department "owned" the document(s) and then look at their records schedules, as well as work with them to come up with next steps for dealing with their document inventories.

NARA cannot independently criminally prosecute a damn thing. They go to DOJ once they have exhausted their own internal escalation procedures, no different from the agency that I retired from, which was also "regulatory" civilian and would also go through steps with our own internal Office of Chief Counsel to attempt to get regulated industry to comply with our requests. When that didn't work, we would finally go to DOJ and the U.S. Marshall's Office, to "take it to the max", with injunctions, searches, seizures, criminal prosecutions (e.g. prosecuting CEOs of companies), and what have you. It's a MAJOR production to do this.

I think a lot of it is understandably a lack of understanding of how the civilian/regulatory agencies differ from and deal with the law-enforcement ones, and how interdependent they are.

DOJ is not going to "reach in and grab workload". An agency that would need them would be providing them with evidence that they will use to build the civil and/or criminal cases. They can only work as fast as the regulatory agency provides them evidence and can then supplement that, from the law-enforcement side (through searches and seizures once a warrant is obtained). Then they put it all together to present to a grand jury if they feel they have enough to go for it.

I know in my agency, having worked in a government lab, both my worksheets and diary were subject to (and were used for) evidentiary purposes for cases that DOJ locally here in Philly, were putting together for firms in this area. In most cases, these companies would settle out of court and we would often negotiate Consent Decrees (which itself is a lot of work to put together), but in other cases, some of my colleagues (thankfully not me) actually testified in the trials of the arrogant asses.

So it's not like what is "on TV". It's messier than that. Hell... DOJ had (and I expect still has) it's own Word Perfect "template" that we had to use to fill in our applicable CFR citations, etc.

So unless you have "been there done that", you can't know what is going on "behind the scenes" in cases like this and it doesn't happen "overnight".

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
62. I am glad to be retired!
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 06:29 AM
Aug 2022


And thank you for engaging because like most people, I am frustrated as well. This is an ever-increasing nightmare situation that keeps getting worse and worse as they peel back the layers of the malfeasance that many of us feared might happen after that 2016 debacle of an election, but then hoped it wouldn't. Yet it really did happen... and worse than was speculated about.

However I know about some of the types of grunt work that has to happen in support of the routine enforcement actions, so when it comes to something like this, which has escalated to the level of a huge political conspiracy while you continue to have "me-tos" in Congress and embedded in various federal agencies, jumping into the fray to circle the wagons, it's mind-boggling what DOJ has had to deal with, including where to even begin, and what to prioritize.

We have seen that with the J6 Committee's series of hearings as they ended up expanding beyond their initial scope and plans. They anticipated doing 7 hearings and then "The End". Yet they would start with one subject, uncover more stuff while working on that, and then end up shifting to another more pressing subject, would find more, then shift again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Now they are talking about continuing into September.

We have gone from "election interference" to an attempt at a "violent overthrow of the government as part of seditious conspiracy", and now we are uncovering possible treason, with the theft and mishandling of our nation's top secrets. It is thoroughly unprecedented.

This literally has become the complete exposure of the "Vast Right-conspiracy" writ large.

jaxexpat

(7,058 posts)
63. I just can't agree more.
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 07:25 AM
Aug 2022

The bilge rats caught taking over the ship must be, at least, removed from the helm. The uncertainty that mere facts, evidence of treason even, will be enough to convince those undecided and lackadaisically complacent folks, caught flatfooted by events, to go to the polls and make the Herculean effort required to vote in this midterm election, both excites and fills with dread. It would be such a shame if it comes to pass that all is lost because the system, wherein every detail of every process has (or once had at least) a necessary function, prevented the governed from repairing their wounded government through the exercise of a democratic election performed by informed voters, without violence.

Have a donut on me.

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
66. Well perhaps fortunately
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 07:44 AM
Aug 2022

the U.S. doesn't operate, at least legally, as a vigilante-justice system. Certainly a whole segment of our population have experienced and/or have had their ancestors subject to, that type of system, with instant "results" and no need for a "process" as laid out in the obviously unnecessarily cumbersome 6th Amendment.



It took over a century to make a specific form of "vigilante justice", a federal crime, but hey, it is what it is. Right?

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
80. You are welcome
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 02:24 PM
Aug 2022

Hopefully what looks like a bottomless pit of treachery, does have a bottom and we can get it resolved (although it will probably take years to get them all).

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
42. Oh dear!
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 05:33 PM
Aug 2022

That spoiled my apetite!

I was going to cook a couple steaks. Maybe I'll wait until tomorrow!

Whoever created this is a true artist! There needs to be a lot more like this!

Hermit-The-Prog

(34,131 posts)
43. I don't know the origin
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 05:50 PM
Aug 2022

I should've made it a clickable link. It came from a site that sheshe2 showed me back during the reign of evil. Laughter helps.

http://all-hat-no-cattle.blogspot.com/2022_08_03_archive.html

ecstatic

(32,931 posts)
67. Only problem is, new crimes are being committed almost daily
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 07:53 AM
Aug 2022

TFG is the king of crime and chaos. I don't disagree with the patient friend, but hopefully the doj will know when enough is enough and to just go with what they have, which is already enough to put him away for life.

BumRushDaShow

(131,815 posts)
68. But as we know
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 08:45 AM
Aug 2022

it's not just one " (figurehead) person" committing crimes. There is a huge cabal of people, touching every aspect of both the government (including some members of state governments and Congress) and the private/corporate world.

So locking the figurehead up isn't going to suddenly stop the crimes from being committed because that figurehead surrounded himself with opportunists, and thus he could easily assert "plausible deniability" because "others" actually did the deeds (and this is where RICO comes into play to get at the top).

As they uncover more and more, the broad scope of the criminality is slowly being revealed, and plans for compartmentalizing this to make it easier and quicker to handle, is most likely underway.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
74. Interesting.
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 01:09 PM
Aug 2022

You raise an important point.

I think Trump is hyper-paranoid right now. Yet he is equally capable of commiting crimes now, than in his "normal" state. I think that this obviously involves his encouraging others to commit crimes with/for him. As what can correctly be called a "mob boss," being arrested, even incarcerated, does not stop that ability. It reduces it, of course, and in time can result to new leadership. But Roy Cohn taught Trump how to operate as a mob boss.

The DOJ, if they do prosecute him, will go with the crimes that are most likely to get convictions. It's a shame that he has gotten away with so much over the years. I think that any of the charges against him would put an end to him. But not to the fake image his cult worships.

Ilsa

(61,734 posts)
73. They also need to make certain that the evidence
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 12:48 PM
Aug 2022

can be viewed by a jury. His worst offenses may involve secrets too important to reveal with a jury.

H2O Man

(73,997 posts)
75. Right.
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 01:53 PM
Aug 2022

I'll add that before indicting in a case like this, prosecutors consider every potential response from the other side. How they will attempt to deflect and delay, among many other things that follow.

Ilsa

(61,734 posts)
81. I wish I could do that.
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 10:59 AM
Aug 2022

I've never been good at anticipating gambits, ploys, manuevers, machinations, etc. By nature, I am not competitive. Playing chess was one of the last things in the world I'd choose to do for fun or relaxation. I doubt I could be a really good prosecutor or defense attorney. But I certainly appreciate those people who can do this.

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