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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTwo prominent men died on the Titanic. Were they secretly a couple?
Two prominent men died on the Titanic. Were they secretly a couple?
By Gillian Brockell
August 7, 2022 at 6:00 a.m. EDT
Presidential aide Archibald Butt in 1909, left, and artist Francis Davis Millet in 1910. (Library of Congress/Archives of American Art/Smithsonian Institution)
Lets be clear up front: No one knows for sure whether Archibald Butt and Francis Davis Millet were in a romantic relationship. In the times and society in which they lived, for such a thing to become known would have meant ruin.
Heres what we do know. Butt never married. Millet was estranged from his wife and had a previous relationship with a man. Butt and Millet lived together in a mansion in Washingtons tony Georgetown neighborhood, where they threw parties for the citys elite including Butts boss, President William Howard Taft. ... And in the weeks before they died on the Titanic, they were vacationing together in Europe.
The enduring partnership of Butt and Millet was an early case of Dont ask, dont tell, " historian Richard Davenport-Hines wrote in 2012, referring to the policy that once required gay members of the military to keep their sexuality secret. A National Park Service page for the White House memorial fountain in their honor says they were widely believed to have been romantically involved with one another.
{snip}
Newsboys hold copies of The Washington Post with headlines about the Titanic and the disappearance of Maj. Archibald Butt and another prominent Washingtonian. (Lewis Hine/National Archives and Records Administration)
The Washington Times quoted a friend who said the two men had a sympathy of mind which was most unusual. The Post said they were the closest of friends, comparing them to ancient Greek figures Damon and Pythias, who were willing to die for one another. Historian James Gifford, writing for OutHistory, suggested this comparison may have been an oblique way of signaling they were gay.
{snip}
Gift Article
https://wapo.st/3QvcDkt
By Gillian Brockell
Gillian Brockell is a staff writer for The Washington Post's history blog, Retropolis. She has been at The Post since 2013 and previously worked as a video editor. Twitter https://twitter.com/gbrockell
Funtatlaguy
(10,879 posts)mahatmakanejeeves
(57,504 posts)Funtatlaguy
(10,879 posts)Stop, just stop.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Especially when the last name is one to make a 12 year old boy giggle.
moose65
(3,167 posts)Cant you just hear his 10-year-old classmates?
Here comes Archie Bald Butt 😆😆
Funtatlaguy
(10,879 posts)Karadeniz
(22,537 posts)PJMcK
(22,037 posts)Who cares?
mopinko
(70,135 posts)to know that it was hidden but there?
PJMcK
(22,037 posts)I hope they found some solace in one anothers company before they perished.
Their personal relationship is none of my business.
JI7
(89,252 posts)made into other people's business and that would be true today also with people wanting to take away rights from them.
And there is nothing wrong with mentioning people as being couples.
Your whole thing makes it seem like it's something to be ashamed of.
PJMcK
(22,037 posts)Those people died in a tragedy.
I really dont n Ed to dig into their private lives.
Why would anyone?
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)This place sometimes.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Have a nice day.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Thtwudbeme
(7,737 posts)died around 2008 at age 95. His met his partner in the military in the 50's. The whole family knew- we all knew. He and his partner were so loved.... I used to call them on the phone every Christmas; they were in California, we were in NC.
Imagine two little girls screaming to call "Uncle Richard" at effing 6:00AM eastern time and trying to understand that they would NOT be awake at 3:00AM.
But, they had to remain in that damned closet outside of the family and maybe their friends out there in California. I don't know- I was a child.
So, yes...it may not matter to YOU, but it matters very very much to so many people. Try not to be flippant.
bucolic_frolic
(43,191 posts)Conspiracy theories have abounded for decades.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-titanic-conspiracy/corrected-fact-check-j-p-morgan-did-not-sink-the-titanic-to-push-forward-plans-for-the-u-s-federal-reserve-idUSL1N2LF18G
https://www.businessinsider.com/conspiracy-theory-that-the-rothschilds-and-federal-reserve-proponents-sank-the-titanic-2015-10
Chainfire
(17,553 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)No success so far.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Thtwudbeme
(7,737 posts)Perhaps it should be slamming your sympathy/empathy buttons pretty hard?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)See, though, I don't mind if they were, in any way. I don't care if they were.
And yet, here's a longish article discussing whether they were or not. How is that of any real value to anyone today?
The thing is that same sex relationships were considered to be a horrible thing at that time. Now it's not. We know it was thought to be wrong and even evil back then by people back then. Today, most people don't really care, although some still want to eliminate such relationships.
My point is that I don't see how the state of those two men's relationships has any relevance today. They are long dead. Apparently, they were not prevented from traveling together on the Titanic. So, maybe nobody cared about that then, either. They were successful people, with important positions. No doubt some thought they had some sort of romantic relationship, but they were not punished for it, nor kept from important positions.
So, a wash, really. And yet, we are discussing that ancient history now, in 2022.
Like I said, I can't see that that should matter to me.
Sympthsical
(9,076 posts)Maybe not you, but others.
But thanks (?) for letting everyone know how little you care about the topic. I'm glad it was important for you to get that belittling out there. Gay youth are appreciative. I know I am.
Bet that bumper sticker is in the mail, though.
Thtwudbeme
(7,737 posts)any more eloquently?
That was such a lovely explanation of your lack of feelings on such an important topic. You truly have a way with words.
ZZenith
(4,124 posts)Kind, firm, and right on target.
Thanks for elevating the tone.
GenThePerservering
(1,824 posts)YOU do not determine the importance of history, particularly the history of so many people (read not white males) which has been basically erased, forgotten, discounted, etc. Trying to put the pieces of a puzzle together when it comes to one's forebears because there just isn't much that wasn't simply kicked aside and suppressed. That which the GOP is trying to do right here and now, sanitizing US history so only the shiny white bits show. SMDH.
FreeState
(10,572 posts)Thanks for letting us know. It's always refreshing when CIS/Het people tell us what's important to them.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)IronLionZion
(45,460 posts)since being themselves could be a capital offense. GOP would love to take us back to those days
musclecar6
(1,690 posts)Back to the good old days. Where blacks, gay people and women all knew their place and kept their mouths shut. Where equal rights,Social Security, Medicare, unions and collective bargaining, were all dirty words never to be uttered in public. Where marijuana was the evil gateway drug, not a very helpful medicine for people with all kinds of medical issues associated with cancer and other debilitating ailments as well as a MUCH better recreational drug than alcohol, with its dangerous side effects and alcoholism.
Yep, the good old days. Make America Great Again ( code for Make America White Again).
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)And yet it was a "secret?"
Tragic for them, but yet another example of the rules don't apply to the rich and connected
Farmer-Rick
(10,190 posts)They seemed to have pretty good lives. Except for the sudden tragedy at the end. They were with who they loved and were on a vacation. There are worse ways to die.
No matter their sexual inclinations, they got to be with their true love. Something a lot of poor and middle class people weren't allowed. In a capitalist society, wealth always brings great privileges. Yeah, they probably had to be a bit quiet about their love, but no one seemed to have attacked them for it.
But the middle or poor class guy who happened to slip up and express a gay tendency, he would be ostracized, beaten, murdered, lose his job, or be chased out of town.
stopdiggin
(11,317 posts)Would add - better protected, but not completely inured. While hardly 'equivalent', lives could be ruined at all levels of society - and there were also plenty of examples of a 'blind eye', also in varying levels of society. (old maid lifelong companions, bachelors sharing living quarters) Mostly - people just weren't overly anxious to take up the issue (or make a case) - unless there was some kind of motivating factor.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Education for you.
Farmer-Rick
(10,190 posts)In all the ages, in all society. At other times it was only royalty, or connections or luck that could protect you.
But even Wide knew how important wealth was:- to succeed one must have wealth. At all costs one must have wealth.
But we are very close today to where wealth will protect you from most laws, just or unjust. Two separate justice systems?
stopdiggin
(11,317 posts)and still can't make a case for why (today) it could possibly matter? Neither of these figures having any particular historical (or social) significance.
(outside of some kind of illustration of the early application of "don't ask don't tell' - but, if so, the true takeaway would be how capricious and inconsistent any such standard was in application, or the protection incurred - regardless the case of these two individual men.)
Marthe48
(16,975 posts)Oscar Wilde was arrested and served 2 years of hard labor as punishment for his relationships with other men. That was 1895, probably in recent memory when the victims of the Titanic were alive. The story is speculative, but maybe heartening to people living today who are struggling along in their, to some, unacceptable gender idendity. If the men had a physical relationship, they lived in a time where there was no place for their homosexuality. And they both had a lot to lose. If they had a relationship, I imagine they were both courageous, forward looking men who found it difficult to live and love secretly. On the other hand, at the time these men lived, we know there were literary and real life same sex relationships that over time we've accepted as men batching it, or women sharing expenses. (Sherlock Holmes and James Watson, Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas) Butt and Millet died unexpectedly, and there is probably not going to be any memoirs or diaries showing proof positive they were gay.
The story, as written, might be the only way we'll have insight about these personal lives. Is it any business of mine? No. Will comparing then and now help me? Oh yes. I have many friends who are out and married. As their friend, I want to be sincere in my acceptance of who they are. I read about other famous people of that era, conventional people. After growing up with people who did not accept anything except their own ways, it is helpful to think about how people lived, loved and succeeded against great odds.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)mahatmakanejeeves
(57,504 posts)It might be tony now, but it wasn't always. It used to have a large black population, and it was considered industrial.
BY ROBERT DEVANEY FEBRUARY 20, 2019
Georgetown young men at home on 32nd Street on a Sunday afternoon, about 1916. Courtesy Cynthia Jackson.
{snip}
At the turn of the 20th century, black Georgetowners lived mostly in Herring Hill (named for the fish in Rock Creek) near Rose Park, along Volta Place Pomander Walk was known as Bedlam Lane and south of M Street in Cherry Hill Lane. Framed wooden houses are reminders of what once was.
Blacks and whites lived and played side by side in many blocks, although with segregation they did not attend the same schools or churches. The Phillips and Wormley schools (for blacks only) are now condos. The Jackson School (for whites) is an arts studio cooperative. Hyde-Addison School (once for whites only) is Georgetowns only public elementary school. Francis Junior High on N Street in the West End was for blacks only.
By the early 20th century, Georgetown had lost its luster and seemed lost in time. With the C&O Canal slowly hauling barges of coal, its port long silted up and its waterfront with a rendering plant and a power plant, the town was classified as industrial.
Nevertheless, in the face of segregation and racism, black Georgetowners established a community that included a variety of clubs, sports teams and black-owned businesses. At 28th and P Streets, Stachowskis used to be Pride Pharmacy; the Washington Fine Properties office, Burkes Tailor Shop. Almost every corner near Rose Park boasted a business.
{snip}
Kingofalldems
(38,459 posts)About 1890 or so until about 1918. The neighborhood was Irish, African American, and German. The Irish (my g-grandfather) and the African Americans worked at the Gas Co. and the Germans worked at the local breweries there. I think upper Georgetown was wealthy though.
Behind the Aegis
(53,961 posts)A term for everyone: "gay erasure".