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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe God Gap Helps Explain a 'Seismic Shift' in American Politics
Overall, people of color are more likely than whites to be Christians and pretty devout Christians at that. Some 83 percent of all black Americans are absolutely certain that God exists. No other group comes close to this figure. Black Christians are far more likely than white Christians (84 percent to 64 percent) to describe religion as very important in their lives. Of all ethnic groups, black Christians are the most likely to attend services, pray frequently and read the Bible regularly. They are also heres the kicker most likely to believe that their faith is the place to look for answers to questions about right and wrong. And they are, by large margins, the most likely to believe that the Bible is the literally inerrant word of God. In short, if you find Christian traditionalism creepy, its black people youre talking about.
Hispanic Americans also tend to possess strong religious values. In October 2020 the New York Timess Jennifer Medina published a prescient report highlighting Trump-supporting Hispanic Evangelicals. Called Latino, Evangelical, and Politically Homeless, it featured this insightful sentence: Hispanic evangelicals identify as religious first and foremost.
Yes. Absolutely. Thats exactly why a politics focused on mobilizing by race/ethnicity will not reach them, especially when identity politics is paired with hard-left cultural positions and hostility for traditional religion. Hispanic voters will find a religious connection with many, many white Republicans, and that religious connection can prove far more culturally and politically consequential than any effort to create a politics based on ethnic or racial identity.
https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/the-most-important-religious-divide
Voltaire2
(13,289 posts)because god.
Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)snark directed at Christians is a very bad idea politically.
Voltaire2
(13,289 posts)Perhaps I was referring to Zeus?
Are pagans not religious enough for you?
Anyway that wasnt my point. Because god was not intended to insult your precious religion or the religion of black christians in Cleveland (wtf?). It was an expression of dismay at yet another suggestion that the Democratic Party give up on reproductive rights, lgbtq rights, etc in order to pander to the religiously motivated voters.
Just fuck that bigoted noise. Id rather go down fighting fascism than finding common ground with it.
But you be you. Have a blessed day.
marmar
(77,129 posts).... the "Christian traditionalism" gets left outside. We understand what voting for these self-proclaimed Christian fundamentalists means. That fact is conveniently left out of this piece.
brooklynite
(95,060 posts)LAS14
(13,792 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Lochloosa
(16,086 posts)Sky Jewels
(7,203 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)but a good example would be not mocking people for their religious beliefs.
It is entirely possible to vehemently disagree with someone's beliefs (religious or otherwise) without mocking them for having those beliefs.
aocommunalpunch
(4,252 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)It is interesting that you would use the word criticized...that's kind of my point, we can disagree with someone's religious beliefs without criticizing them for holding those beliefs.
Here are two examples:
"I don't believe/share your religious beliefs"
"Too bad you feel beholden to some unseen sky daddy who you think rules your life - I thought you were smarter/more enlightened than that"
Both are disagreement, but only one is mocking...
As always, YMMV.
Silent3
(15,454 posts)"I don't believe/share your religious beliefs"
What if the person you say this to then asks "why?", or tells you that you're going to hell because you don't share those beliefs?
More often than not, the supposed "solution" for this is for atheists to be the ones who shut up and keep their opinions to themselves, while the religious people are supposed to be coddled and told soothing things like "I'm so happy you have that comfort in your life!"
shrike3
(3,893 posts)That said, I get along with the non-believing people I know because I mind my own business and they mind theirs. I have a good friend who is agnostic. We had the one conversation and that was it. He explained his POV and I explained mine. What he does on Sundays is no concern to me, and what I do on Sundays is of no concern to him.
Probably it's just my experience, but I have met more than a few atheists who've gone out of their way to tell me my beliefs are nonsense. But then, I've never lived in a bible belt area, and there the shoe's probably on the other foot for atheists.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)There's this persistent myth that theocratic jackassery is geographic, that there's a portion of this country to which religious zeal is confined and that everywhere else is welcoming to religious minorities and people of no faith.
I should remind you a Rhode Island Democrat called Jessica Ahlquist, then a teenager, an "evil little thing" when she complained about a "school prayer" openly displayed at her public high school. She received so many threats she needed a police escort to move between classes.
shrike3
(3,893 posts)Okay.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Or do you mean that atheists often attempt to correct your misperceptions of what it is like to be an atheist in this country?
shrike3
(3,893 posts)I get along with the nonbelievers I know. I have met a few militant atheists, but they've been far and few between. I brought up the bible belt because I've never lived there. I thought my experiences might be different if I had. You seem to indicate it's the same all over, so I must assume my experience is typical.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Just wasn't sure what you were trying to say there. I get it now. No problem.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)lapucelle
(18,417 posts)There have been posts that referenced "Frankie Pope Photo Op".
Sky Jewels
(7,203 posts)There he is, sitting on untold billions and running an institution that has caused misery and oppression and death for untold numbers of women and gay people for centuries, and someone was mean to him on a U.S. political discussion board. The horror!
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)The discussion concerned mockery versus criticism, and the demeaning nickname is an example of actual religion-based offensive mockery that's been used here.
As for examples of religious hatred and and bigoted invective....well, I'll leave that to others.
treestar
(82,383 posts)on DU frequently.
Sky Daddy references, for example. That's likely not a good idea. Politics makes strange bedfellows. The Democrats need the votes of some believers.
There is a difference between extremists and the ordinary just as there is a difference between communists and American liberals.
shrike3
(3,893 posts)I am religious, but believe that since we live in a polygot society the wall between church and state should be firm.
Mockery on DU does get a little annoying, but I've learned to let it roll off my back.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)The phrasing here is just strange to me.
The Democrats need the votes of some believers? The overwhelming majority of Democrats are believers. The overwhelming majority of Democratic politicians at least identify as believing. The President is Catholic, and out of the entire 117th Congress, only two claim to be unaffiliated... and both deny being atheists.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We don't need to have the Sky Daddy type references at all. It would alienate Democrats. Not just evangelical Republicans (who it is likely aimed at).
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Themselves??? Just... think about what you're saying for a second.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I thought you were saying Democrats do have many believers in their ranks.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Most Democrats are believers. Every Democrat holding a national office of note is a believer. No one in their right mind would take a look at the Democratic party and think they're a bunch of atheist anti-theists waging a war against Christianity.
No one is being alienated from a party in which they are the clear and overwhelming majority because a handful of web forum warriors said something mean about religion. The OP article isn't even alleging that. Though he never comes out and says it directly, it should be clear David French is suggesting Democrats are alienating "traditional and orthodox Christians" with their positions on LGBTQ+ rights and abortion. And as depressing as that is, it seems far, far likelier that a Christian would jump ship to the GOP because of concrete policy issues like these than because somebody like me called God "Sky daddy".
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)The "hard-left" (whatever that is supposed to mean) isn't overly concerned with "traditional and orthodox" religious beliefs and practices beyond matters of sex and gender.
Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)have been permitted. I trashed it and put some of the more offensive posters on ignore. I am absolutely against mixing religion and state. However, I do have the right to believe as I choose.
Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Democrats are intolerant of traditional and orthodox Christian beliefs? Which ones are we talking about here?
LAS14
(13,792 posts)Mariana
(14,863 posts)Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)them. Let's just say some were very offensive.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I asked you what traditional, orthodox Christian beliefs are not tolerated by Democrats.
I can't search for something if I don't know what it is.
Mariana
(14,863 posts)to pretend that any discussion or question about religious beliefs equals an attack on religious people. Even in a context like this, they flatly refuse to address your question about specific beliefs, and answer as if you asked about people.
ck4829
(35,097 posts)Even if they don't personally believe, I find it hard to believe that every progressive out there can say their only influences were atheists.
If people look, they might be surprised at what they might find.
Religious belief does not have to mean mean the opposite of progressive, at all.
I would suggest checking out the Groundswell Movement, asking that since we're supposedly a Christian nation then does that mean we get a debt jubilee, and a scholar who said things that stopped me from going down a very dark path at one point: Najeeba Syeed.
Walleye
(31,161 posts)Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)on Christian beliefs...I ignore it as a Christian but it is unwise political I believe in separation of church and state and I am a Christian. Both things can be true.
Walleye
(31,161 posts)If only Christians would follow their own teachings
Bettie
(16,151 posts)enthusiasm because, "religion"?
Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)away because of their religious beliefs who from what I have seen most recently believe in the separation of church and state is foolish... and a form of bigotry.
Bettie
(16,151 posts)if religion works for you (general you), that's fine, I don't care, until it infringes upon my civil rights.
So, how does that "drive away allies"? I don't see it.
Personally, I think religion is the most toxic invention of humans; it divides far more than it brings people together.
So, why should I respect people who believe that my country should have the same laws as their church? If they believe that their religious beliefs should be law, then they aren't allies.
Mariana
(14,863 posts)Exactly right.
Bettie
(16,151 posts)I truly don't.
Or the statement: My country is not your church.
Follow your beliefs, I'll follow mine and we'll get along just fine. (General your, of course)
Mariana
(14,863 posts)It's much more offensive that so many religious people in the US want to enforce their beliefs on everyone than anything the writer of the piece in the OP is squawking about.
Response to brooklynite (Original post)
Deminpenn This message was self-deleted by its author.
Novara
(5,876 posts)At least none I know. They don't WANT white xtian sharia law. I also think there's a difference between black xtians and Hispanic xtians. I think Hispanic xtians identify with white xtians far more than black xtians do.
Plus, it isn't that Dems are anti-religion; we strongly believe it has no place in politics.
Maybe the authors of this trash should make these distinctions. There's a lot of weird-ass opinions in that article.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)Neither of them believe that religion should permeate politics.
Pelosi has actually been denied communion and Biden has been threatened with that denial by arch conservatives who represent an extreme political ideology rather the leader of the Church, the majority of practitioners, or the religion itself.
"Frankie Pope Photo Op" has clapped back the extremists, not with words, but with actions. He's given communion to both Biden and Pelosi, and he received the vaccine that extremists argue *may* have been developed using cell lines of an apocryphal aborted fetus.
It's horrible when bigots "define" Moslems based on the actions of political extremists who have distorted the religion to suit their violent ideology. It's equally horrible when it's done to Christians.
shrike3
(3,893 posts)over her pro choice views and got passed over for a promotion for his trouble. He did declare she would be denied communion but only back in her home parish. I don't know if she's been back to church there since. Joe actually was denied communion, and I believed it was South Carolina, during the primaries. In certain parts of the country Catholics compete with Evangelicals, if you know what I mean.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)to try to publicly embarrass her with a physical denial. However, the "ban" extends to every church in the dioceses of San Fransisco, not just her home parish.
As for the archbishop being passed over for a promotion, it's more than that. Only cardinals are allowed to vote for the next pope. Francis is elevating clergy to the College of Cardinals who are most likely to vote for a pope who will maintain, continue, and expand his reforms. There are no longer pro forma "promotions", so Francis is cutting the conservatives off at the knees.
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-pope-francis-religion-san-diego-455583360c31fe2b90fe558a8815c5c8
shrike3
(3,893 posts)She's too smart a pol to give whatsisname a chance at that. I am well aware of what's going on with the church, cardinal and francis, follow it all closely.
Joe, however, was. I thought he handled it well. The priest in question mouthed off. Joe said nothing, if my memory serves me, and the story died quickly.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)and the Pope said "yes". Moreover, no bishop actually issued any directive (formal or informal) to deny President Biden communion, and his D.C. parish announced that it would not deny Biden communion.
All combined, that probably helped a story that was in the news for years to "die down".
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/11/03/joe-biden-catholic-mass-holy-communion-refused-column/4123123002/
With Speaker Pelosi, there were formal instructions to all the parishes in the archdioceses.
https://sfarch.org/letter-to-priests-of-the-archdiocese-on-the-notification-sent-to-speaker-nancy-pelosi/
And since we are both "well aware of what's going on in the Church", let's agree to call it an "elevation" rather than a "promotion". In this instance it's a distinction with a difference. A cardinal serves as an advisor to the pope.
shrike3
(3,893 posts)lapucelle
(18,417 posts)N.B.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)There are some Christians who find it deeply offensive. It is noted in mainstream dictionaries that the term is "informal" or "offensive".
The Urban Dictionary denotes its hipster connotations:
- people who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, but have a pattern of behavior that is contradictory to the teachings of Christ.
- a christian in name only.
- a religious person who lacks empathy.
- a religious person who is not to be trusted.
Yes, yes we've all heard that "xtian" was a term used by some Christians themselves as recently as 1634.
It's rather like someone insisting that there's nothing wrong with using the offensive term "negro": "It's been used for hundreds of years! Martin Luther King himself used the word!"
Novara
(5,876 posts)lapucelle
(18,417 posts)Bettie
(16,151 posts)should be the law? Just no.
msfiddlestix
(7,289 posts)Emphasize Separation of Church and State.
if only Preachers, Pastors, Ministers, etc etc would just SING the old Gospels but shut the eff up with their interpretations of their Bible
Old gospel songs don't demonize people or politicize people But that's what churches do.
I'm not feeling their pain, and I'm not supporting ignorance.
Demsrule86
(68,867 posts)This was the response from my church about the overthrowing of Roe
'Today the Supreme Court released its decision in the case of Dobbs vs. Jackson Womens Health Organization. The court has overturned the constitutional right to abortion that was recognized in the seminal 1973 case Roe v. Wade. While I, like many, anticipated this decision, I am deeply grieved by it. I have been ordained for more than 40 years, and I have served as a pastor in poor communities; I have witnessed firsthand the negative impact this decision will have. The Episcopal Church maintains that access to equitable health care, including reproductive health care and reproductive procedures, is an integral part of a womans struggle to assert her dignity and worth as a human being (2018-D032).
The church holds that reproductive health procedures should be treated as all other medical procedures, and not singled out or omitted by or because of gender (2018-D032). The Episcopal Church sustains its unequivocal opposition to any legislation on the part of the national or state governments which would abridge or deny the right of individuals to reach informed decisions [about the termination of pregnancy] and to act upon them (2018-D032). As stated in the 1994 Act of Convention, the church also opposes any executive or judicial action to abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision
or that would limit the access of a woman to safe means of acting on her decision (1994-A054).'
dsc
(52,174 posts)Blacks and Hispanics shouldn't be able to use the bathroom or play sports, literally no one would be saying we should respect those beliefs. I fail to see why switching the placement of LGBT and Blacks and Hispanics make that any less repugnant.
LeftinOH
(5,360 posts)*Trump's White House Faith Advisor (or whatever her title was) Paula White, in the days following the election, speaking in tongues and summoning an army of angels from around the world to sway the vote count in Trump's favor.
*At many voting locations right after the election, Evangelical fanatics kneeling and waiving their hands in the air to summon angels and cast away demons -- for the purposes of swaying the vote count in Trumps favor.
*Kandiss Taylor - a GOP candidate for the GA governor primary, who made the destruction of the silly, but harmless Georgia Guidestones monument the key plank in her platform ..because it was "satanic."
*Jacky Eubanks - Michigan GOP State Rep candidate, who believes all forms of birth control should be abolished, because God..or something.
and so on, and so on, and so on. People who push primitive superstitious malarkey that often passes for "religion" nowadays deserve every bit of scorn an derision they get -- and public discourse should not be lowered to their level.
andym
(5,447 posts)Religion goes hand in hand with Traditionalism, which is what the culture wars promote.
Walleye
(31,161 posts)andym
(5,447 posts)which is why the culture wars work for the GOP-- there is an ism for almost everyone drawn to traditionalism. One might even say that the diversity of isms is fertile ground for a regressive, backwards looking political party: sexism, racism, etc. As I earlier stated religion typically promotes traditionalism.
Mariana
(14,863 posts)Even racism is supported by the Bible, according to some interpretations. But here we're being told:
intheflow
(28,521 posts)I know many, many evangelical Black church members and not one of them would ever vote for Republicans, and they ALL vote. Their interpretation of the Bible is grounded in Liberation Theology, not in the controlling, fear-mongering misinterpretations of the Hebrew Bible that is what the white evangelicals tend to focus on. This is because they had been controlled by humanity and see Jesus as the liberator, whereas white evangelicals consider him the punisher (or at least, the arbiter of good and bad) - and they are happy to work punishing those they believe are less deserving of Jesus.
Meanwhile, many, many Latinos can pass as white, which allows for them to more closely identify with white supremacists. I have to say, this is an ill-thought-out hypothesis that sounds like it was written by a "good liberal" who puts their own assumptions on Black people, instead of actually listening to Black people.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)I've never heard that before.
Coventina
(27,227 posts)lapucelle
(18,417 posts)Coventina
(27,227 posts)There are a lot more.
I worked with one. His last name was Riojas. He was extremely white nationalist, even though he acknowledged that he was Latino.
My brother-in-law's mother is another one. She is Mexican (her parents crossed the border illegally back in the 30s) and is also white nationalist.
My dad was the pastor of a Presbyterian church on the US border, and the most vociferous voices for a border wall and "arresting the illegals" came from the Latinx members of his church.
I can't explain it, I just know that such a group exists.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)I'm not sure what the argument here is supposed to be. I think someone would need better evidence to support the claim that more people of a particular ethnic demographic are voting with Republicans because they're secret white supremacists rather than religiously conservative.
Coventina
(27,227 posts)I just wanted to make clear that such people exist.
I live in Arizona, so I know a lot of Latinx people. The vast majority of the ones I know are NOT white supremacist. However, I am aware that some of them are.
ETA: You seemed to express that you were unaware of any, so I provided some examples.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)in iterations that I haven't personally seen.
I was just wondering whether "secret white supremacist" was a more plausible explanation than "religiously conservative" of Democrats leaking support from a demographic that was once such a solid part of our coalition.
Coventina
(27,227 posts)No matter the cause, loss of Latinx votes is troubling.
dpibel
(2,896 posts)Are you quite sure he's focused on giving the very best advice to Democrats?
For that matter, isn't The Dispatch what might be referred to as a right-wing source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_French_(political_commentator)
French has served as a senior counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice and the Alliance Defending Freedom...[Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF, formerly Alliance Defense Fund) is an American conservative Christian legal advocacy group focused on blocking rights and protections for LGBTQ people;[5] expanding Christian practices within public schools and in government;[6][7] and preventing access to abortion and contraception...]
In August 2017, French was one of several co-authors of the so-called Nashville Statement, which affirmed "that it is sinful to approve of homosexual immorality or transgenderism and that such approval constitutes an essential departure from Christian faithfulness and witness."
Voltaire2
(13,289 posts)But we need to find common ground.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)dpibel
(2,896 posts)Honestly don't know what I'm supposed to take from this. It's often useful, if you have a point to make, to give some clue as to what it might be.
The guy's a never-Trumper. That doesn't make him an ally of Democrats.
He called out the alt-right for white nationalism and got harassed on the Twitter. Does that change his anti-LGBTQ stance?
He's a right-wing lewnie. The place where he posts is a right-wing lewnie site.
It's great to see infighting amongst right-wing lewnies, if that's your intention in posting this link.
If it's intended to say he's an OK guy to whom we should pay attention, I think I'll treat that as a clean miss.
lapucelle
(18,417 posts)and got one.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Whatever you say.
LymphocyteLover
(5,666 posts)and yeah, fuck David French
Rob H.
(5,359 posts)Hard pass on any advice he might have.
Link to tweet
?s=20&t=THrxL4B14WBacrI2U_GNsQ
From the article in the tweet:
(...)
As a lawyer I represented pro-life groups for decades. I helped raise tens of millions of dollars for pro-life legal advocacy (I lost count at about $40 million)....
(...)
Moreover there was always something particularly morally noxious about Roes reasoning. The Supreme Court removed abortion questions almost entirely from the democratic process, created one of the most extreme abortion rights regimes in the world, and deprived an entire class of peopleunborn childrenof any meaningful legal status. It did all those things through the 14th Amendment, one of the Civil War amendments.
The Civil War amendments were intended to correct deep flaws in the original Constitution that permitted states to systematically deprive individuals of their most basic human rights. At long last the Supreme Court could and would begin the process of extending the blessings of liberty to every American.
Well, to everyone but the unborn. For those precious people, the court declared that one of the key Civil War amendments was the instrument of their doom. The ruling wasnt just constitutionally unsound, it was morally perverse. It utterly contradicted not just the letter of the 14th Amendment, but its animating moral essence as well.
Now Roe is gone. Good. We should rejoice at its demise. (emphasis added)
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)We all know what he's talking about.
This isn't about a couple of people on the internet cracking wise about the Sky Daddy or Pope Francis' mealy-mouthed PR campaigns. He's talking about Democratic politicians supporting LGBTQ+ and women's rights.
I'm all for a strategic approach to our elections, but I am not -- and I mean NOT -- throwing people under the bus to score points with bigots.
blue neen
(12,336 posts).
vercetti2021
(10,156 posts)These are the same people that want to make sure I have no fucking rights I don't give a fuck about trying to suck their dick just for their votes. fuck them
Samrob
(4,298 posts)It also gave them strength to try to break the shackles and fight for their freedom. A double edge sword for sure. But much more harm than good for many.
I am very "spiritual" but in much much different way than these so called "Evangelical Christians"
My religion calls me to do good, forgive often, seek justice, be kind, welcome the stranger, feed the hungry and clothe the naked and provide shelter for those in need. As much as I am able (and it doesn't take money) I try. Actually most in my family try. My family is mixing bowl of 5 different religions, quite a few atheists, 5 ethnic groups including Asians, white, black, Hispanic, and Native American.
Over the years we meet up once annually until 2020 when the pandemic struck. We lost about 13 of the meetup group. Hope to meetup again in 2023 but who knows?
Voltaire2
(13,289 posts)In summary the author is suggesting we toss the gays back under the bus like 2012 never happened and also never mind about Dobbs. Because god.
No thanks.
Baggies
(503 posts)Now if only people would listen