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brooklynite

(95,060 posts)
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 08:47 AM Jul 2022

The God Gap Helps Explain a 'Seismic Shift' in American Politics

Yet in scorning traditional or orthodox religious beliefs, secular progressives are often scorning indispensable members of their own coalition. Writing in response to flare-ups over Chick-fil-A, Yale law professor Stephen Carter sounded the alarm more than four years ago:

Overall, people of color are more likely than whites to be Christians — and pretty devout Christians at that. Some 83 percent of all black Americans are absolutely certain that God exists. No other group comes close to this figure. Black Christians are far more likely than white Christians (84 percent to 64 percent) to describe religion as very important in their lives. Of all ethnic groups, black Christians are the most likely to attend services, pray frequently and read the Bible regularly. They are also — here’s the kicker — most likely to believe that their faith is the place to look for answers to questions about right and wrong. And they are, by large margins, the most likely to believe that the Bible is the literally inerrant word of God. In short, if you find Christian traditionalism creepy, it’s black people you’re talking about.

Hispanic Americans also tend to possess strong religious values. In October 2020 the New York Times’s Jennifer Medina published a prescient report highlighting Trump-supporting Hispanic Evangelicals. Called “Latino, Evangelical, and Politically Homeless,” it featured this insightful sentence: “Hispanic evangelicals identify as religious first and foremost.”

Yes. Absolutely. That’s exactly why a politics focused on mobilizing by race/ethnicity will not reach them, especially when identity politics is paired with hard-left cultural positions and hostility for traditional religion. Hispanic voters will find a religious connection with many, many white Republicans, and that religious connection can prove far more culturally and politically consequential than any effort to create a politics based on ethnic or racial identity.


https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/the-most-important-religious-divide
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The God Gap Helps Explain a 'Seismic Shift' in American Politics (Original Post) brooklynite Jul 2022 OP
Oh great let's just surrender on the culture war front Voltaire2 Jul 2022 #1
Look in Cleveland Black voters and workers are mostly Christian...they are awesome and the Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #18
Why do you assume 'god' implies 'christian'? Voltaire2 Jul 2022 #50
A lot of B.S. in this piece. Christian or not, when black people go to the voting booth.... marmar Jul 2022 #2
The choice is not "secular" vs "christian fundamentalist" brooklynite Jul 2022 #7
Thanks. There's a lot of ignorance about American religion here at DU. nt LAS14 Jul 2022 #31
What in the galloping fuck does this even mean: Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #3
When they return the favor. Lochloosa Jul 2022 #4
Yep. Won't hold my breath for any recipocity. Sky Jewels Jul 2022 #39
Not aiming this at ANYONE here SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2022 #8
Disagreement becomes mockery in the ears of the criticized. n/t aocommunalpunch Jul 2022 #13
In some cases, yes SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2022 #14
Whether criticism (diplomatic or insulting) comes up depends on how far a conversation goes Silent3 Jul 2022 #29
This Sky Jewels Jul 2022 #40
I have met atheists who will make the sky daddy speech unbidden. shrike3 Jul 2022 #52
"The Bible belt" Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #90
Then I guess my experience with atheists is normal? shrike3 Jul 2022 #91
Did I give you the "sky daddy speech unbidden"? Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #93
Lighten up, dude. shrike3 Jul 2022 #94
I'm light. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #95
Nailed it. nt BlackSkimmer Jul 2022 #45
Except when it's actual, offensive mockery. lapucelle Jul 2022 #15
Oh, the poor pope. Sky Jewels Jul 2022 #41
What are you even talking about? lapucelle Jul 2022 #44
I've seen outright mockery treestar Jul 2022 #26
I agree with this, yes. shrike3 Jul 2022 #53
"The Democrats need the votes of some believers." Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #77
There you have it then treestar Jul 2022 #79
Alienate them from who? Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #82
the Democrats? treestar Jul 2022 #87
Alright, let's unpack this. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #89
I think the OP article is fairly clear in its meaning. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #16
Thank you...there was a recent thread that had it been about anyone but Christians would not Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #22
That is exactly correct. Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #19
Please elaborate. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #24
Joe Biden? Bill Clinton? Hillary Clinton? Elizabeth Warren? nt LAS14 Jul 2022 #32
The poster asked about beliefs, not people. Mariana Jul 2022 #57
I will not attack Duer's here...even ones I disagree with...but if you use the search...you will see Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #42
I didn't ask you to attack anyone. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #55
Wow, it really has become a reflex for religious people Mariana Jul 2022 #60
There can be a respect for religious beliefs ck4829 Jul 2022 #5
So because we believe in separation of church and state we are hostile to religion? Walleye Jul 2022 #6
What I have seen here and other places is not the separation thing...it is an all out attack Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #20
Of course both can be true that's the point. The resentment comes when it's forced on us Walleye Jul 2022 #36
So, we should accept the coming theocracy with Bettie Jul 2022 #9
That is not what was said...it merely pointed out that driving allies that agree with us Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #21
Religion doesn't belong in politics Bettie Jul 2022 #28
If they believe that their religious beliefs should be law, then they aren't allies. Mariana Jul 2022 #61
I do not see why that is a controversial statement Bettie Jul 2022 #62
It shouldn't be controversial or offensive. Mariana Jul 2022 #65
This message was self-deleted by its author Deminpenn Jul 2022 #10
The difference is, black xtians don't think religion should permeate politics Novara Jul 2022 #11
This. marmar Jul 2022 #12
President Joe Biden and Speaker Pelosi are both white Catholics. lapucelle Jul 2022 #17
I don't think Pelosi's been physically denied communion. The archbishop of her diocese threw a hissy shrike3 Jul 2022 #54
I don't think Speaker Pelosi has given the grandstanding archbishop the actual oppotunity lapucelle Jul 2022 #56
My point was, she has not been physically denied communion. shrike3 Jul 2022 #58
Actually, President Biden asked the Pope if he were allowed to take communion, lapucelle Jul 2022 #63
This was before he was president. shrike3 Jul 2022 #80
Yes I know. lapucelle Jul 2022 #84
And about that term "xtians"... lapucelle Jul 2022 #27
I find the whole religion deeply offensive. Novara Jul 2022 #47
You are entitled to be on the record as "finding [a] whole religion deeply offensive". lapucelle Jul 2022 #59
Yes, if they think that their religion Bettie Jul 2022 #30
I'm old as dirt, and I STILL say eff Religious Zeolots from our Culture. msfiddlestix Jul 2022 #23
I am an Episcopalean. We believe in Gay marriage and our clergy marry everyone... Demsrule86 Jul 2022 #25
If LGBT people ran around saying because of God dsc Jul 2022 #33
There's Religion - and then there's superstitious crap, such as LeftinOH Jul 2022 #34
The God Gap is partially why the GOP led culture wars works for them andym Jul 2022 #35
Unfortunately religion goes also hand-in-hand with sexism Walleye Jul 2022 #38
Sexism as well as other isms are part and parcel of traditionalism andym Jul 2022 #43
Sexism, homophobia, transphobia, hatred of unbelievers, etc. etc. etc. Mariana Jul 2022 #66
White male writer says what now? intheflow Jul 2022 #37
Many Latinos can "pass as white which allows them to more closely identify with white supremacists"? lapucelle Jul 2022 #46
Google Nick Fuentes. n/t Coventina Jul 2022 #48
Why? Does he in any way represent Latinos? N/T lapucelle Jul 2022 #64
No, he is a Latino who is a white nationalist. See also Ted Cruz. Coventina Jul 2022 #67
Four is "many"? lapucelle Jul 2022 #69
I never tried to say how many is "many". I apologize for any lack of clarity. Coventina Jul 2022 #71
There are all sorts of horrible people, and I have no doubt they exist lapucelle Jul 2022 #74
On that, I couldn't tell you. Coventina Jul 2022 #75
This David French? The bigot one? dpibel Jul 2022 #49
Yeah that theocratic fascist. Voltaire2 Jul 2022 #51
This guy? lapucelle Jul 2022 #68
Meaning what? dpibel Jul 2022 #70
Meaning simply that I went to the wki link you provided for a more complete picture, lapucelle Jul 2022 #72
Sure. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #78
the framing of the quoted lines suggested it was not a mainstream or left-leaning writer LymphocyteLover Jul 2022 #73
Anti-choice, too Rob H. Jul 2022 #76
When David French says "traditional, orthodox Christian values" Act_of_Reparation Jul 2022 #81
Oh, okay an article by a self-described conservative theologian. blue neen Jul 2022 #83
Fuck religion vercetti2021 Jul 2022 #85
Isn't that how black slaves were indoctrinated? How they were kept in line with the "fear of God?" Samrob Jul 2022 #86
'Hard left cultural positions' where is my dog? Voltaire2 Jul 2022 #88
Very Informative Baggies Jul 2022 #92

Demsrule86

(68,867 posts)
18. Look in Cleveland Black voters and workers are mostly Christian...they are awesome and the
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:29 AM
Jul 2022

snark directed at Christians is a very bad idea politically.

Voltaire2

(13,289 posts)
50. Why do you assume 'god' implies 'christian'?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:36 PM
Jul 2022

Perhaps I was referring to Zeus?
Are pagans not religious enough for you?

Anyway that wasn’t my point. ‘Because god’ was not intended to insult your precious religion or the religion of black christians in Cleveland (wtf?). It was an expression of dismay at yet another suggestion that the Democratic Party give up on reproductive rights, lgbtq rights, etc in order to pander to the religiously motivated voters.

Just fuck that bigoted noise. I’d rather go down fighting fascism than finding common ground with it.

But you be you. Have a blessed day.

marmar

(77,129 posts)
2. A lot of B.S. in this piece. Christian or not, when black people go to the voting booth....
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 09:14 AM
Jul 2022

.... the "Christian traditionalism" gets left outside. We understand what voting for these self-proclaimed Christian fundamentalists means. That fact is conveniently left out of this piece.






Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
3. What in the galloping fuck does this even mean:
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 09:15 AM
Jul 2022
At the very least secular Americans should demonstrate respect and real tolerance for traditional religious beliefs.


SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
8. Not aiming this at ANYONE here
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 09:35 AM
Jul 2022

but a good example would be not mocking people for their religious beliefs.

It is entirely possible to vehemently disagree with someone's beliefs (religious or otherwise) without mocking them for having those beliefs.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
14. In some cases, yes
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 09:45 AM
Jul 2022

It is interesting that you would use the word criticized...that's kind of my point, we can disagree with someone's religious beliefs without criticizing them for holding those beliefs.

Here are two examples:

"I don't believe/share your religious beliefs"

"Too bad you feel beholden to some unseen sky daddy who you think rules your life - I thought you were smarter/more enlightened than that"

Both are disagreement, but only one is mocking...

As always, YMMV.

Silent3

(15,454 posts)
29. Whether criticism (diplomatic or insulting) comes up depends on how far a conversation goes
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:57 AM
Jul 2022

"I don't believe/share your religious beliefs"

What if the person you say this to then asks "why?", or tells you that you're going to hell because you don't share those beliefs?

More often than not, the supposed "solution" for this is for atheists to be the ones who shut up and keep their opinions to themselves, while the religious people are supposed to be coddled and told soothing things like "I'm so happy you have that comfort in your life!"

shrike3

(3,893 posts)
52. I have met atheists who will make the sky daddy speech unbidden.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:39 PM
Jul 2022

That said, I get along with the non-believing people I know because I mind my own business and they mind theirs. I have a good friend who is agnostic. We had the one conversation and that was it. He explained his POV and I explained mine. What he does on Sundays is no concern to me, and what I do on Sundays is of no concern to him.

Probably it's just my experience, but I have met more than a few atheists who've gone out of their way to tell me my beliefs are nonsense. But then, I've never lived in a bible belt area, and there the shoe's probably on the other foot for atheists.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
90. "The Bible belt"
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:22 AM
Jul 2022

There's this persistent myth that theocratic jackassery is geographic, that there's a portion of this country to which religious zeal is confined and that everywhere else is welcoming to religious minorities and people of no faith.

I should remind you a Rhode Island Democrat called Jessica Ahlquist, then a teenager, an "evil little thing" when she complained about a "school prayer" openly displayed at her public high school. She received so many threats she needed a police escort to move between classes.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
93. Did I give you the "sky daddy speech unbidden"?
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:22 PM
Jul 2022

Or do you mean that atheists often attempt to correct your misperceptions of what it is like to be an atheist in this country?

shrike3

(3,893 posts)
94. Lighten up, dude.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 09:24 PM
Jul 2022

I get along with the nonbelievers I know. I have met a few militant atheists, but they've been far and few between. I brought up the bible belt because I've never lived there. I thought my experiences might be different if I had. You seem to indicate it's the same all over, so I must assume my experience is typical.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
15. Except when it's actual, offensive mockery.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:00 AM
Jul 2022

There have been posts that referenced "Frankie Pope Photo Op".

Sky Jewels

(7,203 posts)
41. Oh, the poor pope.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:29 AM
Jul 2022

There he is, sitting on untold billions and running an institution that has caused misery and oppression and death for untold numbers of women and gay people for centuries, and someone was mean to him on a U.S. political discussion board. The horror!

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
44. What are you even talking about?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:44 AM
Jul 2022

The discussion concerned mockery versus criticism, and the demeaning nickname is an example of actual religion-based offensive mockery that's been used here.

As for examples of religious hatred and and bigoted invective....well, I'll leave that to others.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
26. I've seen outright mockery
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:55 AM
Jul 2022

on DU frequently.

Sky Daddy references, for example. That's likely not a good idea. Politics makes strange bedfellows. The Democrats need the votes of some believers.

There is a difference between extremists and the ordinary just as there is a difference between communists and American liberals.

shrike3

(3,893 posts)
53. I agree with this, yes.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:42 PM
Jul 2022


I am religious, but believe that since we live in a polygot society the wall between church and state should be firm.

Mockery on DU does get a little annoying, but I've learned to let it roll off my back.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
77. "The Democrats need the votes of some believers."
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 04:57 PM
Jul 2022

The phrasing here is just strange to me.

The Democrats need the votes of some believers? The overwhelming majority of Democrats are believers. The overwhelming majority of Democratic politicians at least identify as believing. The President is Catholic, and out of the entire 117th Congress, only two claim to be unaffiliated... and both deny being atheists.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
79. There you have it then
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 05:12 PM
Jul 2022

We don't need to have the Sky Daddy type references at all. It would alienate Democrats. Not just evangelical Republicans (who it is likely aimed at).

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
89. Alright, let's unpack this.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 09:17 AM
Jul 2022

Most Democrats are believers. Every Democrat holding a national office of note is a believer. No one in their right mind would take a look at the Democratic party and think they're a bunch of atheist anti-theists waging a war against Christianity.

No one is being alienated from a party in which they are the clear and overwhelming majority because a handful of web forum warriors said something mean about religion. The OP article isn't even alleging that. Though he never comes out and says it directly, it should be clear David French is suggesting Democrats are alienating "traditional and orthodox Christians" with their positions on LGBTQ+ rights and abortion. And as depressing as that is, it seems far, far likelier that a Christian would jump ship to the GOP because of concrete policy issues like these than because somebody like me called God "Sky daddy".

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
16. I think the OP article is fairly clear in its meaning.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:16 AM
Jul 2022
Indeed, there is a long history of Christian leftist political engagement in the United States. America would be a less just place without their Christian witness, and many politically progressive Christians are traditional and orthodox, including on matters of sex and gender.


The "hard-left" (whatever that is supposed to mean) isn't overly concerned with "traditional and orthodox" religious beliefs and practices beyond matters of sex and gender.

Demsrule86

(68,867 posts)
22. Thank you...there was a recent thread that had it been about anyone but Christians would not
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:37 AM
Jul 2022

have been permitted. I trashed it and put some of the more offensive posters on ignore. I am absolutely against mixing religion and state. However, I do have the right to believe as I choose.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
24. Please elaborate.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:50 AM
Jul 2022

Democrats are intolerant of traditional and orthodox Christian beliefs? Which ones are we talking about here?

Mariana

(14,863 posts)
57. The poster asked about beliefs, not people.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 01:40 PM
Jul 2022
Democrats are intolerant of traditional and orthodox Christian beliefs? Which ones are we talking about here?

Demsrule86

(68,867 posts)
42. I will not attack Duer's here...even ones I disagree with...but if you use the search...you will see
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:31 AM
Jul 2022

them. Let's just say some were very offensive.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
55. I didn't ask you to attack anyone.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:50 PM
Jul 2022

I asked you what traditional, orthodox Christian beliefs are not tolerated by Democrats.

I can't search for something if I don't know what it is.

Mariana

(14,863 posts)
60. Wow, it really has become a reflex for religious people
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 01:51 PM
Jul 2022

to pretend that any discussion or question about religious beliefs equals an attack on religious people. Even in a context like this, they flatly refuse to address your question about specific beliefs, and answer as if you asked about people.

ck4829

(35,097 posts)
5. There can be a respect for religious beliefs
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 09:25 AM
Jul 2022

Even if they don't personally believe, I find it hard to believe that every progressive out there can say their only influences were atheists.

If people look, they might be surprised at what they might find.

Religious belief does not have to mean mean the opposite of progressive, at all.

I would suggest checking out the Groundswell Movement, asking that since we're supposedly a Christian nation then does that mean we get a debt jubilee, and a scholar who said things that stopped me from going down a very dark path at one point: Najeeba Syeed.

Demsrule86

(68,867 posts)
20. What I have seen here and other places is not the separation thing...it is an all out attack
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:32 AM
Jul 2022

on Christian beliefs...I ignore it as a Christian but it is unwise political I believe in separation of church and state and I am a Christian. Both things can be true.

Walleye

(31,161 posts)
36. Of course both can be true that's the point. The resentment comes when it's forced on us
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:20 AM
Jul 2022

If only Christians would follow their own teachings

Demsrule86

(68,867 posts)
21. That is not what was said...it merely pointed out that driving allies that agree with us
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:34 AM
Jul 2022

away because of their religious beliefs who from what I have seen most recently believe in the separation of church and state is foolish... and a form of bigotry.

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
28. Religion doesn't belong in politics
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:57 AM
Jul 2022

if religion works for you (general you), that's fine, I don't care, until it infringes upon my civil rights.

So, how does that "drive away allies"? I don't see it.

Personally, I think religion is the most toxic invention of humans; it divides far more than it brings people together.

So, why should I respect people who believe that my country should have the same laws as their church? If they believe that their religious beliefs should be law, then they aren't allies.

Mariana

(14,863 posts)
61. If they believe that their religious beliefs should be law, then they aren't allies.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 01:59 PM
Jul 2022

Exactly right.

Bettie

(16,151 posts)
62. I do not see why that is a controversial statement
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:01 PM
Jul 2022

I truly don't.

Or the statement: My country is not your church.

Follow your beliefs, I'll follow mine and we'll get along just fine. (General your, of course)

Mariana

(14,863 posts)
65. It shouldn't be controversial or offensive.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:08 PM
Jul 2022

It's much more offensive that so many religious people in the US want to enforce their beliefs on everyone than anything the writer of the piece in the OP is squawking about.

Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Novara

(5,876 posts)
11. The difference is, black xtians don't think religion should permeate politics
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 09:38 AM
Jul 2022

At least none I know. They don't WANT white xtian sharia law. I also think there's a difference between black xtians and Hispanic xtians. I think Hispanic xtians identify with white xtians far more than black xtians do.

Plus, it isn't that Dems are anti-religion; we strongly believe it has no place in politics.

Maybe the authors of this trash should make these distinctions. There's a lot of weird-ass opinions in that article.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
17. President Joe Biden and Speaker Pelosi are both white Catholics.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:28 AM
Jul 2022

Neither of them believe that religion should permeate politics.

Pelosi has actually been denied communion and Biden has been threatened with that denial by arch conservatives who represent an extreme political ideology rather the leader of the Church, the majority of practitioners, or the religion itself.

"Frankie Pope Photo Op" has clapped back the extremists, not with words, but with actions. He's given communion to both Biden and Pelosi, and he received the vaccine that extremists argue *may* have been developed using cell lines of an apocryphal aborted fetus.

It's horrible when bigots "define" Moslems based on the actions of political extremists who have distorted the religion to suit their violent ideology. It's equally horrible when it's done to Christians.

shrike3

(3,893 posts)
54. I don't think Pelosi's been physically denied communion. The archbishop of her diocese threw a hissy
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:46 PM
Jul 2022

over her pro choice views and got passed over for a promotion for his trouble. He did declare she would be denied communion but only back in her home parish. I don't know if she's been back to church there since. Joe actually was denied communion, and I believed it was South Carolina, during the primaries. In certain parts of the country Catholics compete with Evangelicals, if you know what I mean.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
56. I don't think Speaker Pelosi has given the grandstanding archbishop the actual oppotunity
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 01:31 PM
Jul 2022

to try to publicly embarrass her with a physical denial. However, the "ban" extends to every church in the dioceses of San Fransisco, not just her home parish.

As for the archbishop being passed over for a promotion, it's more than that. Only cardinals are allowed to vote for the next pope. Francis is elevating clergy to the College of Cardinals who are most likely to vote for a pope who will maintain, continue, and expand his reforms. There are no longer pro forma "promotions", so Francis is cutting the conservatives off at the knees.

https://apnews.com/article/abortion-pope-francis-religion-san-diego-455583360c31fe2b90fe558a8815c5c8

shrike3

(3,893 posts)
58. My point was, she has not been physically denied communion.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 01:42 PM
Jul 2022

She's too smart a pol to give whatsisname a chance at that. I am well aware of what's going on with the church, cardinal and francis, follow it all closely.

Joe, however, was. I thought he handled it well. The priest in question mouthed off. Joe said nothing, if my memory serves me, and the story died quickly.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
63. Actually, President Biden asked the Pope if he were allowed to take communion,
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:05 PM
Jul 2022

and the Pope said "yes". Moreover, no bishop actually issued any directive (formal or informal) to deny President Biden communion, and his D.C. parish announced that it would not deny Biden communion.

All combined, that probably helped a story that was in the news for years to "die down".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/11/03/joe-biden-catholic-mass-holy-communion-refused-column/4123123002/

With Speaker Pelosi, there were formal instructions to all the parishes in the archdioceses.

https://sfarch.org/letter-to-priests-of-the-archdiocese-on-the-notification-sent-to-speaker-nancy-pelosi/

And since we are both "well aware of what's going on in the Church", let's agree to call it an "elevation" rather than a "promotion". In this instance it's a distinction with a difference. A cardinal serves as an advisor to the pope.




lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
27. And about that term "xtians"...
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:56 AM
Jul 2022

There are some Christians who find it deeply offensive. It is noted in mainstream dictionaries that the term is "informal" or "offensive".

The Urban Dictionary denotes its hipster connotations:

xtian

- people who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, but have a pattern of behavior that is contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

- a christian in name only.

- a religious person who lacks empathy.

- a religious person who is not to be trusted.

Yes, yes we've all heard that "xtian" was a term used by some Christians themselves as recently as 1634.

It's rather like someone insisting that there's nothing wrong with using the offensive term "negro": "It's been used for hundreds of years! Martin Luther King himself used the word!"

msfiddlestix

(7,289 posts)
23. I'm old as dirt, and I STILL say eff Religious Zeolots from our Culture.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:45 AM
Jul 2022

Emphasize Separation of Church and State.

if only Preachers, Pastors, Ministers, etc etc would just SING the old Gospels but shut the eff up with their interpretations of their Bible

Old gospel songs don't demonize people or politicize people But that's what churches do.

I'm not feeling their pain, and I'm not supporting ignorance.









Demsrule86

(68,867 posts)
25. I am an Episcopalean. We believe in Gay marriage and our clergy marry everyone...
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 10:53 AM
Jul 2022

This was the response from my church about the overthrowing of Roe

'Today the Supreme Court released its decision in the case of Dobbs vs. Jackson Women’s Health Organization. The court has overturned the constitutional right to abortion that was recognized in the seminal 1973 case Roe v. Wade. While I, like many, anticipated this decision, I am deeply grieved by it. I have been ordained for more than 40 years, and I have served as a pastor in poor communities; I have witnessed firsthand the negative impact this decision will have. The Episcopal Church maintains that access to equitable health care, including reproductive health care and reproductive procedures, is “an integral part of a woman’s struggle to assert her dignity and worth as a human being” (2018-D032).

The church holds that “reproductive health procedures should be treated as all other medical procedures, and not singled out or omitted by or because of gender” (2018-D032). The Episcopal Church sustains its “unequivocal opposition to any legislation on the part of the national or state governments which would abridge or deny the right of individuals to reach informed decisions [about the termination of pregnancy] and to act upon them” (2018-D032). As stated in the 1994 Act of Convention, the church also opposes any “executive or judicial action to abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision…or that would limit the access of a woman to safe means of acting on her decision” (1994-A054).'

dsc

(52,174 posts)
33. If LGBT people ran around saying because of God
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:02 AM
Jul 2022

Blacks and Hispanics shouldn't be able to use the bathroom or play sports, literally no one would be saying we should respect those beliefs. I fail to see why switching the placement of LGBT and Blacks and Hispanics make that any less repugnant.

LeftinOH

(5,360 posts)
34. There's Religion - and then there's superstitious crap, such as
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:15 AM
Jul 2022

*Trump's White House Faith Advisor (or whatever her title was) Paula White, in the days following the election, speaking in tongues and summoning an army of angels from around the world to sway the vote count in Trump's favor.

*At many voting locations right after the election, Evangelical fanatics kneeling and waiving their hands in the air to summon angels and cast away demons -- for the purposes of swaying the vote count in Trumps favor.

*Kandiss Taylor - a GOP candidate for the GA governor primary, who made the destruction of the silly, but harmless Georgia Guidestones monument the key plank in her platform ..because it was "satanic."

*Jacky Eubanks - Michigan GOP State Rep candidate, who believes all forms of birth control should be abolished, because God..or something.

and so on, and so on, and so on. People who push primitive superstitious malarkey that often passes for "religion" nowadays deserve every bit of scorn an derision they get -- and public discourse should not be lowered to their level.

andym

(5,447 posts)
35. The God Gap is partially why the GOP led culture wars works for them
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:20 AM
Jul 2022

Religion goes hand in hand with Traditionalism, which is what the culture wars promote.

andym

(5,447 posts)
43. Sexism as well as other isms are part and parcel of traditionalism
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:40 AM
Jul 2022

which is why the culture wars work for the GOP-- there is an ism for almost everyone drawn to traditionalism. One might even say that the diversity of isms is fertile ground for a regressive, backwards looking political party: sexism, racism, etc. As I earlier stated religion typically promotes traditionalism.

Mariana

(14,863 posts)
66. Sexism, homophobia, transphobia, hatred of unbelievers, etc. etc. etc.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:15 PM
Jul 2022

Even racism is supported by the Bible, according to some interpretations. But here we're being told:

At the very least secular Americans should demonstrate respect and real tolerance for traditional religious beliefs.

intheflow

(28,521 posts)
37. White male writer says what now?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 11:20 AM
Jul 2022

I know many, many evangelical Black church members and not one of them would ever vote for Republicans, and they ALL vote. Their interpretation of the Bible is grounded in Liberation Theology, not in the controlling, fear-mongering misinterpretations of the Hebrew Bible that is what the white evangelicals tend to focus on. This is because they had been controlled by humanity and see Jesus as the liberator, whereas white evangelicals consider him the punisher (or at least, the arbiter of good and bad) - and they are happy to work punishing those they believe are less deserving of Jesus.

Meanwhile, many, many Latinos can pass as white, which allows for them to more closely identify with white supremacists. I have to say, this is an ill-thought-out hypothesis that sounds like it was written by a "good liberal" who puts their own assumptions on Black people, instead of actually listening to Black people.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
46. Many Latinos can "pass as white which allows them to more closely identify with white supremacists"?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:03 PM
Jul 2022

I've never heard that before.

Coventina

(27,227 posts)
67. No, he is a Latino who is a white nationalist. See also Ted Cruz.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:16 PM
Jul 2022

There are a lot more.

I worked with one. His last name was Riojas. He was extremely white nationalist, even though he acknowledged that he was Latino.

My brother-in-law's mother is another one. She is Mexican (her parents crossed the border illegally back in the 30s) and is also white nationalist.

My dad was the pastor of a Presbyterian church on the US border, and the most vociferous voices for a border wall and "arresting the illegals" came from the Latinx members of his church.

I can't explain it, I just know that such a group exists.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
69. Four is "many"?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:27 PM
Jul 2022

I'm not sure what the argument here is supposed to be. I think someone would need better evidence to support the claim that more people of a particular ethnic demographic are voting with Republicans because they're secret white supremacists rather than religiously conservative.

Coventina

(27,227 posts)
71. I never tried to say how many is "many". I apologize for any lack of clarity.
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:49 PM
Jul 2022

I just wanted to make clear that such people exist.

I live in Arizona, so I know a lot of Latinx people. The vast majority of the ones I know are NOT white supremacist. However, I am aware that some of them are.

ETA: You seemed to express that you were unaware of any, so I provided some examples.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
74. There are all sorts of horrible people, and I have no doubt they exist
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 03:07 PM
Jul 2022

in iterations that I haven't personally seen.

I was just wondering whether "secret white supremacist" was a more plausible explanation than "religiously conservative" of Democrats leaking support from a demographic that was once such a solid part of our coalition.

dpibel

(2,896 posts)
49. This David French? The bigot one?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 12:23 PM
Jul 2022

Are you quite sure he's focused on giving the very best advice to Democrats?

For that matter, isn't The Dispatch what might be referred to as a right-wing source?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_French_(political_commentator)

French has served as a senior counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice and the Alliance Defending Freedom...

[Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF, formerly Alliance Defense Fund) is an American conservative Christian legal advocacy group focused on blocking rights and protections for LGBTQ people;[5] expanding Christian practices within public schools and in government;[6][7] and preventing access to abortion and contraception...]

In August 2017, French was one of several co-authors of the so-called Nashville Statement, which affirmed "that it is sinful to approve of homosexual immorality or transgenderism and that such approval constitutes an essential departure from Christian faithfulness and witness."

dpibel

(2,896 posts)
70. Meaning what?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:46 PM
Jul 2022

Honestly don't know what I'm supposed to take from this. It's often useful, if you have a point to make, to give some clue as to what it might be.

The guy's a never-Trumper. That doesn't make him an ally of Democrats.

He called out the alt-right for white nationalism and got harassed on the Twitter. Does that change his anti-LGBTQ stance?

He's a right-wing lewnie. The place where he posts is a right-wing lewnie site.

It's great to see infighting amongst right-wing lewnies, if that's your intention in posting this link.

If it's intended to say he's an OK guy to whom we should pay attention, I think I'll treat that as a clean miss.

lapucelle

(18,417 posts)
72. Meaning simply that I went to the wki link you provided for a more complete picture,
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 02:51 PM
Jul 2022

and got one.


LymphocyteLover

(5,666 posts)
73. the framing of the quoted lines suggested it was not a mainstream or left-leaning writer
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 03:04 PM
Jul 2022

and yeah, fuck David French

Rob H.

(5,359 posts)
76. Anti-choice, too
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 03:50 PM
Jul 2022

Hard pass on any advice he might have.


?s=20&t=THrxL4B14WBacrI2U_GNsQ

From the article in the tweet:

(...)

As a lawyer I represented pro-life groups for decades. I helped raise tens of millions of dollars for pro-life legal advocacy (I lost count at about $40 million)....

(...)

Moreover there was always something particularly morally noxious about Roe’s reasoning. The Supreme Court removed abortion questions almost entirely from the democratic process, created one of the most extreme abortion rights regimes in the world, and deprived an entire class of people—unborn children—of any meaningful legal status. It did all those things through the 14th Amendment, one of the Civil War amendments.

The Civil War amendments were intended to correct deep flaws in the original Constitution that permitted states to systematically deprive individuals of their most basic human rights. At long last the Supreme Court could and would begin the process of extending the blessings of liberty to every American.

Well, to everyone but the unborn. For those precious people, the court declared that one of the key Civil War amendments was the instrument of their doom. The ruling wasn’t just constitutionally unsound, it was morally perverse. It utterly contradicted not just the letter of the 14th Amendment, but its animating moral essence as well.

Now Roe is gone. Good. We should rejoice at its demise. (emphasis added)

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
81. When David French says "traditional, orthodox Christian values"
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 05:13 PM
Jul 2022

We all know what he's talking about.

This isn't about a couple of people on the internet cracking wise about the Sky Daddy or Pope Francis' mealy-mouthed PR campaigns. He's talking about Democratic politicians supporting LGBTQ+ and women's rights.

I'm all for a strategic approach to our elections, but I am not -- and I mean NOT -- throwing people under the bus to score points with bigots.

vercetti2021

(10,156 posts)
85. Fuck religion
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 06:12 PM
Jul 2022

These are the same people that want to make sure I have no fucking rights I don't give a fuck about trying to suck their dick just for their votes. fuck them

Samrob

(4,298 posts)
86. Isn't that how black slaves were indoctrinated? How they were kept in line with the "fear of God?"
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 06:35 PM
Jul 2022

It also gave them strength to try to break the shackles and fight for their freedom. A double edge sword for sure. But much more harm than good for many.

I am very "spiritual" but in much much different way than these so called "Evangelical Christians"

My religion calls me to do good, forgive often, seek justice, be kind, welcome the stranger, feed the hungry and clothe the naked and provide shelter for those in need. As much as I am able (and it doesn't take money) I try. Actually most in my family try. My family is mixing bowl of 5 different religions, quite a few atheists, 5 ethnic groups including Asians, white, black, Hispanic, and Native American.
Over the years we meet up once annually until 2020 when the pandemic struck. We lost about 13 of the meetup group. Hope to meetup again in 2023 but who knows?

Voltaire2

(13,289 posts)
88. 'Hard left cultural positions' where is my dog?
Mon Jul 18, 2022, 07:40 PM
Jul 2022

In summary the author is suggesting we toss the gays back under the bus like 2012 never happened and also never mind about Dobbs. Because god.

No thanks.

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