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Tue May 31, 2022, 10:15 PM

NYT OpEd: Should We Be Forced to See Exactly What an AR-15 Does to a 10-Year-Old?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/opinion/uvalde-shooting-photos.html?referringSource=articleShare

Should We Be Forced to See Exactly What an AR-15 Does to a 10-Year-Old?

I know that stoning people to death is barbaric. But I never understood just what it entails — the slow, cruel process by which a defenseless human being is degraded and destroyed — until I saw a series of photographs taken by Somali photojournalist Farah Abdi Warsameh, which depict the stoning execution of a man accused of adultery by the insurgent group Hizbul Islam. While some charge that viewing such pictures is voyeuristic, these images made me face the terror, the blood and the sheer cruelty of this practice — one that, astonishingly, has not yet been tossed into the dustbin of history.

Photographic images can bring us close to the experience of suffering — and, in particular, to the physical torment that violence creates — in ways that words do not. What does the destruction of a human being, of a human body — frail and vulnerable (all human bodies are frail and vulnerable) — look like? What can we know of another’s suffering? Is such knowledge forbidden — or, alternately, necessary? And if we obtain it, what then?

These are questions that are being raised in the wake of last week’s mass shooting of 19 children and two adults in Uvalde, Texas, which has plunged much of the country into an abyss of sorrow, rage and despair. On social media and in the press, some, including the former homeland security chief Jeh Johnson, have suggested that photographs of the slaughtered children, whose faces and bodies were apparently mutilated beyond recognition, be released to the public in hopes of garnering support for gun control legislation.


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Reply NYT OpEd: Should We Be Forced to See Exactly What an AR-15 Does to a 10-Year-Old? (Original post)
SoonerPride May 2022 OP
MarineCombatEngineer May 2022 #1
ratchiweenie Jun 2022 #47
global1 May 2022 #2
C_U_L8R May 2022 #4
applegrove May 2022 #9
llmart Jun 2022 #34
2naSalit May 2022 #13
rickford66 May 2022 #3
Chin music May 2022 #11
LeftInTX Jun 2022 #24
rickford66 Jun 2022 #31
LeftInTX Jun 2022 #52
rickford66 Jun 2022 #55
relayerbob May 2022 #5
grumpyduck May 2022 #7
grumpyduck May 2022 #6
Whiskeytide Jun 2022 #46
Journeyman May 2022 #8
The Magistrate May 2022 #10
Chin music May 2022 #12
MomInTheCrowd May 2022 #15
KS Toronado Jun 2022 #22
Paladin Jun 2022 #39
Ilsa Jun 2022 #40
DiamondShark Jun 2022 #57
JI7 May 2022 #14
dickthegrouch May 2022 #16
Cheezoholic May 2022 #17
ShazzieB Jun 2022 #18
Grumpy Old Guy Jun 2022 #20
LeftInTX Jun 2022 #25
llmart Jun 2022 #35
Hotler Jun 2022 #43
turbinetree Jun 2022 #19
Grumpy Old Guy Jun 2022 #21
dchill Jun 2022 #23
LeftInTX Jun 2022 #26
Cuthbert Allgood Jun 2022 #49
MissMillie Jun 2022 #27
callous taoboy Jun 2022 #29
MissMillie Jun 2022 #30
llmart Jun 2022 #36
MissMillie Jun 2022 #37
llmart Jun 2022 #38
MissMillie Jun 2022 #41
DiamondShark Jun 2022 #59
callous taoboy Jun 2022 #28
WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2022 #32
SKKY Jun 2022 #33
Cuthbert Allgood Jun 2022 #50
SKKY Jun 2022 #51
Novara Jun 2022 #42
Hotler Jun 2022 #44
LeftInTX Jun 2022 #53
Kaleva Jun 2022 #45
Demsrule86 Jun 2022 #48
Buckeyeblue Jun 2022 #54
DiamondShark Jun 2022 #56
Thtwudbeme Jun 2022 #58
demtenjeep Jun 2022 #60
AngryOldDem Jun 2022 #61

Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:17 PM

1. If the parents want to give permission to release the photos, then no problem

with it from me, that being said, I don't need to see what a .223/5.56 round does to the face of a human being, already seen it, and much more.

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:36 AM

47. I believe that if the parents approve, the pictures of those children should be released on every

major news outlet in the country. That is what it is going to take to make people realize what these military weapons do and why they should not be owned by ordinary citizens. Since when are Americans so weak we can't look at what we have created? What we have allowed to happen to our children.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:21 PM

2. For Cars They Use Sophisticated Crash Test Dummies To Determine Effects Of A Car Crash On Humans....

Have they ever applied that technique to determine the effects of various guns and bullets on a human body?

I've heard how unrecognizable a body is after being hit by shots from certain guns and types of bullets.

I've seen posts here on DU where people have suggested that they publish the pics of these kids that have been killed in these school shootings in convincing people that certain guns and bullets would be banned once people see their results.

I don't think that it's appropriate to show those types of pics and I don't think I'd want to see them anyway.

BUT

I do think it would be appropriate if the 'crash test dummy' type of technique was applied to the effects of what guns and bullets do to a human being and then show us those results.

Does anyone know if such testing exists?

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Response to global1 (Reply #2)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:23 PM

4. That would be an impactful ad campaign

Just like crash test dummies did for safety belts.

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Response to global1 (Reply #2)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:35 PM

9. 60 Minutes did a story on this. They had a tech gel brick that was the same density

as a human body and shot through it with a simple gun shot (that went right through) and another gel brick that they shot at with an AR-15. In the second one there is tumbling and shock waves and it destroys a good portion of the brick. The first one was just a narrow straight line through the gel. I say "just" as if any gunshot wound is nothing. I don't know what pictures to publish. I don't know what the right thing to do is. At least 60 Minutes was on the case this past Sunday. I bet a lot of people saw that story.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:18 AM

34. I saw the story.

I couldn't see much of a similarity to a human body. Quite frankly, I thought it wasn't a very good analogy. The visuals need to be closer to the truth. You and I might be able to envision what it's like just from the written description, but most Americans need to see a more realistic picture of what happens. If they can make movies that use extremely realistic representations of death and destruction, then get those Hollywood people to put something together who can help to put ad campaigns together and show those ads every single day until Congress does something to stop the sale of automatic weapons.

I'm tired of this pussy footing around the issue of gun control.

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Response to global1 (Reply #2)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:44 PM

13. Seems to me that...

At least a couple times in the past there was an effort to have CDC conduct such studies, actually a broad spectrum on affects of gun violence but the usual suspects/NRA made sure the government couldn't request or fund anything of the sort and NRA made sure academia didn't either.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:22 PM

3. Aren't fetus photos paraded around by "pro-lifers" to influence opinion ?

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Response to rickford66 (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 03:30 AM

24. Fetuses also medical waste..hence...

There aren't any consequences...

Parents could sue...

Who is gonna sue over medical waste pictures?

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:31 AM

31. Emmitt Till's mother chose to let the World see her dead son's body.

One of the murdered children's parents may decide to do the same thing. The MAGA's have to know what the results of their fetish is. At the least, a photo of the classroom after the bodies were removed would make an impact. None of this could be done without the full permission of all the parents.

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Response to rickford66 (Reply #31)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:39 PM

52. Yes, if they want to. It's their choice.

But I haven't heard of one parent in recent history who wants to do this.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #52)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 05:15 PM

55. That's all I meant. It would be the parent's decision.

It may come to that for the general public to be motivated or shocked into action.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:30 PM

5. Yes, and those morons at the presser

Abbott, Cruz and their ilk, should be *required* to visit the morgues and view bodies before making public statements

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Response to relayerbob (Reply #5)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:32 PM

7. Yeah, like the Germans who had to

view the extermination camps.

Of course, our government would never allow that. We're too civilized.

In a fucking pig's eye.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:30 PM

6. I think the problem is,

the people who really need to see them never would.

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Response to grumpyduck (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:41 AM

46. Or worse, wouldn't be emotionally impacted by them. n/t

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:33 PM

8. If not the children, then show pictures of the empty classroom before it's cleaned . . .

The blood and body parts splattered and pooled all about will be more than sufficient.

The only effective weapon against the Second Amendment is unfettered use of the First.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:36 PM

10. Well Said, Sir




The only effective weapon against the Second Amendment is unfettered use of the First.



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Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)


Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Tue May 31, 2022, 11:00 PM

15. Agreed

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:45 AM

22. Excellent idea!

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:24 AM

39. Agreed. In vivid color. (nt)

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:41 AM

40. And perhaps a specific itemization of what has been removed,

that is, a child's jaw, a foot, multiple brain matter in six areas, etc.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:50 PM

57. They. Don't. Care.

Simple as that. The people you are trying to convince guns are bad have flipped the empathy switch to off regarding the Second Amendment.

I won't stop you from protesting in front of any and all politicians with those graphic photos. Those are the people you need to convince.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 10:47 PM

14. I wouldn't be against it if the parents wanted to do it but I don't think it would change any minds

Those who continue to oppose gun control are shitty types . They aren't casual voters who aren't that informed and just misled . They are hateful types and the opposition to it is mostly about racism .

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 11:22 PM

16. America is ALREADY on board

The photos only need to be shown to the republicans who vote no on all sensible legislation, the supreme (Ptah) court, and ALL owners and purchasers of any gun.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Tue May 31, 2022, 11:39 PM

17. Anybody as old as me remember those crash films they showed you in drivers ed.?

(do they even have drivers ed. anymore?) That shit woke my 15 year old juvenile ass up. You couldn't show that on TV even today.

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Response to Cheezoholic (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:23 AM

18. I've heard about them, but never saw one.

For whatever reason, my school did not use those.

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Response to Cheezoholic (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:42 AM

20. I remember them well.

They scared the crap out of us.

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Response to Cheezoholic (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 03:32 AM

25. Yes

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Response to Cheezoholic (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:22 AM

35. I remember them.

I do disagree that they couldn't be shown on TV today. Have you seen the kinds of blood and guts movies and video games that kids see these days?

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Response to Cheezoholic (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:01 AM

43. Remember the balck & white films in shop class? People losing fingers, hands and

one guy got speared by a piece of wood from a table saw. Anyone have wood shop with a teacher that had "all" their fingers?

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:41 AM

19. During the Vietnam war every night we got to see the aftermath of someone getting killed......

and then when Whiteman was blasting away in Texas Tower we got live shots of people getting taken down...and what did we get....we even got film shots of B-17 getting the shit beat out of them on full frontal shots blowing the shit out the planes....and what did that get us...and the all time was my president getting his brains blown out and his wife trying to protect her husband .....while he is grabbing for his throat trying to breath.....and then the second shot slamming the back of his head back.....and the second bullet slamming into his head .....

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:44 AM

21. Emmet Till's mother insisted on an open casket.

It made a difference.

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Response to Grumpy Old Guy (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:53 AM

23. +1.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 03:42 AM

26. I was looking at deer killed from AR-15's

I really don't think this would work.

There isn't much gore. It's just a typical deer that's been killed...

I think what Ramos did was overkill at point blank range.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:50 AM

49. They had to use DNA to identify some of the remains.

I think it was that bad. Sure it's overkill, but it's still the reality of what happened.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 04:29 AM

27. Well, this description of the slaughtered kids is enough for me...

Hell, the word "slaughtered" is enough for me.

And while I'm sure graphic photographs may make a difference with some people, quite frankly it doesn't matter to me what the victims bodies LOOK like. They're victims--some dead and some that will live with physical and emotional injuries that will stay with them forever.

They're victims, and they shouldn't have become victims.

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Response to MissMillie (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 05:36 AM

29. Just hearing that gun in the background of a video a parent was filming

has haunted me.

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Response to callous taoboy (Reply #29)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 05:51 AM

30. I've avoided it.

Like most of the details about all of the shootings these days.

I don't think my heart can take the unbearable sadness and anger.

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Response to MissMillie (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:27 AM

36. That may be how you feel...

but there's obviously a good portion of our fellow citizens (aka Trump and his cultists) who don't have the ability to envision the scene just from descriptions. But as has been said, a picture is worth a thousand words and if we reach only a portion of those who actually need to have this shoved in their face, then I'm OK with it.

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Response to llmart (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:41 AM

37. I was indeed speaking for myself

However, the vision of A Clockwork Orange comes into my head when people start talking about "forcing" people to see the carnage.

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Response to MissMillie (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:12 AM

38. I think the author used the word "force" in a nuanced definition.

Of course you can't "force" a person to watch something in a TV ad because people can turn their TV's off or change the channel or even shut their eyes or look away. I think the author meant we should put it out there and maybe reach more people that way.

The mamby pamby ads that were put out in the 80's with Reagan's anti-drug use agenda ("This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs" showing an egg frying in a pan weren't very effective because people didn't see the real results of drug use from seeing a frying egg in a pan.

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Response to llmart (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:48 AM

41. Well, I think that the people who need to see this stuff

are the same ones that laugh it off.

The good news is that a vast majority of people already favor stricter gun regulation. The others are probably the people we will never convince.

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Response to llmart (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:54 PM

59. Bad idea.

Think of all the therapy you will need to provide to the innocent people that you expose to those scenes.

Not to mention, all the psychopaths that worship gore and dream of the day they can cause that kind of carnage.

No thank you, I do not want to live in that world.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 05:35 AM

28. My brother described graphic car crash photos shown during driver ed.

This was in the early 70's, and these photos were gone when I came through in the late 70's. Our mom did drive us to the scene of a fatal car crash when I was around 7 or 8 years old. Turned out to be one of my brother's middle school friends who was killed instantly. His grandfather had been driving him home and attempted to cross a busy highway and they were T-boned. It was a gruesome scene that has stuck with me.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:09 AM

32. No. It would change nothing.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:15 AM

33. While I admire greatly what Emmett Till's mother did...

...I think seeing a slaughtered 10-year-old is a bit much. Now, a blood-splattered classroom with toppled desks and bullet holes in the walls? Yes, absolutely. In fact, everyone who works at the gunmaker that made that AR-15, and definitely everyone at the NRA should be required to have that as their desktop background for a year. I know a little something about Windows Group Policy Objects, so I could make it happen for them.

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Response to SKKY (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:50 AM

50. It's up to the parents, but if the release it

why not make the Republicans defend those pictures.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 11:11 AM

51. For sure, and if they do decide to have open caskets, I support them 100%....

....but I think we can show pictures of the classroom aftermath and have pretty much the same effect. And I hope someone will.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:52 AM

42. No. WE don't need to see such carnage, but ...

... all republicans do. All republicans who voted against any gun restriction need to see such carnage.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:15 AM

44. Sadly, things might not change until a family member of a sitting repug (fascist)

senator or congressmen is a victim of a mass shooting. Only if it happens to them will it change. If it happens to a sitting Democrat they'll sit back and do nothing.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:42 PM

53. Scalise was and look at him

It did nothing. It only made him double down.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:29 AM

45. It'd be the same as seeing pics of people shot by any gun

How does one tell the difference between a person shot by an AR-15 12 guage shotgun and someone shot by a pump action 12 guage shotgun?

Or the difference between a person shot by a Ruger Mini chambered for the .223 Remington or an AR 15 style chambered to fire the same round?

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:48 AM

48. Again, no one should be forced to look at anything...this is a Republic not a dictatorship.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:50 PM

54. I don't think it would matter

Republicans have made their base on the gun issue. Abortion is second.

If they turn on either issue, they lose the base.

Besides, any pictures would be declared fake by the nut-wings.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:43 PM

56. Yeah, you dont want to see that.

If you are really interested, head over to liveleak. I'm sure they have the video you are looking for.

If you want to see it in person, well that's pretty sick. There are reasons gore is not shown during the evening news.

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:52 PM

58. Many people on DU couldn't handle reading a late night post by a DUer that had to see the remains

 

of a child hit by a car.

The guy was traumatized and was accused by a poster or two of "gore porn" or something like that.

I read what he wrote- I was a paramedic when I was young; he described it accurately. I felt terrible for him.

What in the hell makes anyone think DUers could handle a photo?

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:56 PM

60. yes- Playboy was called gross or something like that so they printed Vietnam photos

 

helped turn the tide

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Response to SoonerPride (Original post)

Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:56 PM

61. The way this country is, there would be unintended consequences

Like conspiracy theories, claims of “staged” photos, etc., more pain for the families.

Not me saying that. That’s some of the reasons why Nicole Hockley of Sandy Hook Promise is against it for those reasons.

People will believe and see what only fits their narrative, until it directly affects them. Even then, I have my doubts.


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