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SoonerPride

(12,286 posts)
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:15 PM May 2022

NYT OpEd: Should We Be Forced to See Exactly What an AR-15 Does to a 10-Year-Old?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/31/opinion/uvalde-shooting-photos.html?referringSource=articleShare

Should We Be Forced to See Exactly What an AR-15 Does to a 10-Year-Old?

I know that stoning people to death is barbaric. But I never understood just what it entails — the slow, cruel process by which a defenseless human being is degraded and destroyed — until I saw a series of photographs taken by Somali photojournalist Farah Abdi Warsameh, which depict the stoning execution of a man accused of adultery by the insurgent group Hizbul Islam. While some charge that viewing such pictures is voyeuristic, these images made me face the terror, the blood and the sheer cruelty of this practice — one that, astonishingly, has not yet been tossed into the dustbin of history.

Photographic images can bring us close to the experience of suffering — and, in particular, to the physical torment that violence creates — in ways that words do not. What does the destruction of a human being, of a human body — frail and vulnerable (all human bodies are frail and vulnerable) — look like? What can we know of another’s suffering? Is such knowledge forbidden — or, alternately, necessary? And if we obtain it, what then?

These are questions that are being raised in the wake of last week’s mass shooting of 19 children and two adults in Uvalde, Texas, which has plunged much of the country into an abyss of sorrow, rage and despair. On social media and in the press, some, including the former homeland security chief Jeh Johnson, have suggested that photographs of the slaughtered children, whose faces and bodies were apparently mutilated beyond recognition, be released to the public in hopes of garnering support for gun control legislation.


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NYT OpEd: Should We Be Forced to See Exactly What an AR-15 Does to a 10-Year-Old? (Original Post) SoonerPride May 2022 OP
If the parents want to give permission to release the photos, then no problem MarineCombatEngineer May 2022 #1
I believe that if the parents approve, the pictures of those children should be released on every ratchiweenie Jun 2022 #47
For Cars They Use Sophisticated Crash Test Dummies To Determine Effects Of A Car Crash On Humans.... global1 May 2022 #2
That would be an impactful ad campaign C_U_L8R May 2022 #4
60 Minutes did a story on this. They had a tech gel brick that was the same density applegrove May 2022 #9
I saw the story. llmart Jun 2022 #34
Seems to me that... 2naSalit May 2022 #13
Aren't fetus photos paraded around by "pro-lifers" to influence opinion ? rickford66 May 2022 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music May 2022 #11
Fetuses also medical waste..hence... LeftInTX Jun 2022 #24
Emmitt Till's mother chose to let the World see her dead son's body. rickford66 Jun 2022 #31
Yes, if they want to. It's their choice. LeftInTX Jun 2022 #52
That's all I meant. It would be the parent's decision. rickford66 Jun 2022 #55
Yes, and those morons at the presser relayerbob May 2022 #5
Yeah, like the Germans who had to grumpyduck May 2022 #7
I think the problem is, grumpyduck May 2022 #6
Or worse, wouldn't be emotionally impacted by them. n/t Whiskeytide Jun 2022 #46
If not the children, then show pictures of the empty classroom before it's cleaned . . . Journeyman May 2022 #8
Well Said, Sir The Magistrate May 2022 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music May 2022 #12
Agreed MomInTheCrowd Jun 2022 #15
Excellent idea! KS Toronado Jun 2022 #22
Agreed. In vivid color. (nt) Paladin Jun 2022 #39
And perhaps a specific itemization of what has been removed, Ilsa Jun 2022 #40
They. Don't. Care. DiamondShark Jun 2022 #57
I wouldn't be against it if the parents wanted to do it but I don't think it would change any minds JI7 May 2022 #14
America is ALREADY on board dickthegrouch Jun 2022 #16
Anybody as old as me remember those crash films they showed you in drivers ed.? Cheezoholic Jun 2022 #17
I've heard about them, but never saw one. ShazzieB Jun 2022 #18
I remember them well. Grumpy Old Guy Jun 2022 #20
Yes LeftInTX Jun 2022 #25
I remember them. llmart Jun 2022 #35
Remember the balck & white films in shop class? People losing fingers, hands and Hotler Jun 2022 #43
During the Vietnam war every night we got to see the aftermath of someone getting killed...... turbinetree Jun 2022 #19
Emmet Till's mother insisted on an open casket. Grumpy Old Guy Jun 2022 #21
+1. dchill Jun 2022 #23
I was looking at deer killed from AR-15's LeftInTX Jun 2022 #26
They had to use DNA to identify some of the remains. Cuthbert Allgood Jun 2022 #49
Well, this description of the slaughtered kids is enough for me... MissMillie Jun 2022 #27
Just hearing that gun in the background of a video a parent was filming callous taoboy Jun 2022 #29
I've avoided it. MissMillie Jun 2022 #30
That may be how you feel... llmart Jun 2022 #36
I was indeed speaking for myself MissMillie Jun 2022 #37
I think the author used the word "force" in a nuanced definition. llmart Jun 2022 #38
Well, I think that the people who need to see this stuff MissMillie Jun 2022 #41
Bad idea. DiamondShark Jun 2022 #59
My brother described graphic car crash photos shown during driver ed. callous taoboy Jun 2022 #28
No. It would change nothing. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2022 #32
While I admire greatly what Emmett Till's mother did... SKKY Jun 2022 #33
It's up to the parents, but if the release it Cuthbert Allgood Jun 2022 #50
For sure, and if they do decide to have open caskets, I support them 100%.... SKKY Jun 2022 #51
No. WE don't need to see such carnage, but ... Novara Jun 2022 #42
Sadly, things might not change until a family member of a sitting repug (fascist) Hotler Jun 2022 #44
Scalise was and look at him LeftInTX Jun 2022 #53
It'd be the same as seeing pics of people shot by any gun Kaleva Jun 2022 #45
Again, no one should be forced to look at anything...this is a Republic not a dictatorship. Demsrule86 Jun 2022 #48
I don't think it would matter Buckeyeblue Jun 2022 #54
Yeah, you dont want to see that. DiamondShark Jun 2022 #56
Many people on DU couldn't handle reading a late night post by a DUer that had to see the remains Thtwudbeme Jun 2022 #58
yes- Playboy was called gross or something like that so they printed Vietnam photos demtenjeep Jun 2022 #60
The way this country is, there would be unintended consequences AngryOldDem Jun 2022 #61

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,249 posts)
1. If the parents want to give permission to release the photos, then no problem
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:17 PM
May 2022

with it from me, that being said, I don't need to see what a .223/5.56 round does to the face of a human being, already seen it, and much more.

ratchiweenie

(7,754 posts)
47. I believe that if the parents approve, the pictures of those children should be released on every
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 11:36 AM
Jun 2022

major news outlet in the country. That is what it is going to take to make people realize what these military weapons do and why they should not be owned by ordinary citizens. Since when are Americans so weak we can't look at what we have created? What we have allowed to happen to our children.

global1

(25,224 posts)
2. For Cars They Use Sophisticated Crash Test Dummies To Determine Effects Of A Car Crash On Humans....
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:21 PM
May 2022

Have they ever applied that technique to determine the effects of various guns and bullets on a human body?

I've heard how unrecognizable a body is after being hit by shots from certain guns and types of bullets.

I've seen posts here on DU where people have suggested that they publish the pics of these kids that have been killed in these school shootings in convincing people that certain guns and bullets would be banned once people see their results.

I don't think that it's appropriate to show those types of pics and I don't think I'd want to see them anyway.

BUT

I do think it would be appropriate if the 'crash test dummy' type of technique was applied to the effects of what guns and bullets do to a human being and then show us those results.

Does anyone know if such testing exists?

applegrove

(118,486 posts)
9. 60 Minutes did a story on this. They had a tech gel brick that was the same density
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:35 PM
May 2022

as a human body and shot through it with a simple gun shot (that went right through) and another gel brick that they shot at with an AR-15. In the second one there is tumbling and shock waves and it destroys a good portion of the brick. The first one was just a narrow straight line through the gel. I say "just" as if any gunshot wound is nothing. I don't know what pictures to publish. I don't know what the right thing to do is. At least 60 Minutes was on the case this past Sunday. I bet a lot of people saw that story.

llmart

(15,532 posts)
34. I saw the story.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:18 AM
Jun 2022

I couldn't see much of a similarity to a human body. Quite frankly, I thought it wasn't a very good analogy. The visuals need to be closer to the truth. You and I might be able to envision what it's like just from the written description, but most Americans need to see a more realistic picture of what happens. If they can make movies that use extremely realistic representations of death and destruction, then get those Hollywood people to put something together who can help to put ad campaigns together and show those ads every single day until Congress does something to stop the sale of automatic weapons.

I'm tired of this pussy footing around the issue of gun control.

2naSalit

(86,323 posts)
13. Seems to me that...
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:44 PM
May 2022

At least a couple times in the past there was an effort to have CDC conduct such studies, actually a broad spectrum on affects of gun violence but the usual suspects/NRA made sure the government couldn't request or fund anything of the sort and NRA made sure academia didn't either.

Response to rickford66 (Reply #3)

LeftInTX

(25,122 posts)
24. Fetuses also medical waste..hence...
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 04:30 AM
Jun 2022

There aren't any consequences...

Parents could sue...

Who is gonna sue over medical waste pictures?

rickford66

(5,521 posts)
31. Emmitt Till's mother chose to let the World see her dead son's body.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:31 AM
Jun 2022

One of the murdered children's parents may decide to do the same thing. The MAGA's have to know what the results of their fetish is. At the least, a photo of the classroom after the bodies were removed would make an impact. None of this could be done without the full permission of all the parents.

LeftInTX

(25,122 posts)
52. Yes, if they want to. It's their choice.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 01:39 PM
Jun 2022

But I haven't heard of one parent in recent history who wants to do this.

rickford66

(5,521 posts)
55. That's all I meant. It would be the parent's decision.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:15 PM
Jun 2022

It may come to that for the general public to be motivated or shocked into action.

relayerbob

(6,537 posts)
5. Yes, and those morons at the presser
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:30 PM
May 2022

Abbott, Cruz and their ilk, should be *required* to visit the morgues and view bodies before making public statements

grumpyduck

(6,222 posts)
7. Yeah, like the Germans who had to
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:32 PM
May 2022

view the extermination camps.

Of course, our government would never allow that. We're too civilized.

In a fucking pig's eye.

Journeyman

(15,024 posts)
8. If not the children, then show pictures of the empty classroom before it's cleaned . . .
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:33 PM
May 2022

The blood and body parts splattered and pooled all about will be more than sufficient.

The only effective weapon against the Second Amendment is unfettered use of the First.

Response to Journeyman (Reply #8)

Ilsa

(61,690 posts)
40. And perhaps a specific itemization of what has been removed,
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:41 AM
Jun 2022

that is, a child's jaw, a foot, multiple brain matter in six areas, etc.

DiamondShark

(787 posts)
57. They. Don't. Care.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:50 PM
Jun 2022

Simple as that. The people you are trying to convince guns are bad have flipped the empathy switch to off regarding the Second Amendment.

I won't stop you from protesting in front of any and all politicians with those graphic photos. Those are the people you need to convince.

JI7

(89,239 posts)
14. I wouldn't be against it if the parents wanted to do it but I don't think it would change any minds
Tue May 31, 2022, 11:47 PM
May 2022

Those who continue to oppose gun control are shitty types . They aren't casual voters who aren't that informed and just misled . They are hateful types and the opposition to it is mostly about racism .

dickthegrouch

(3,169 posts)
16. America is ALREADY on board
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:22 AM
Jun 2022

The photos only need to be shown to the republicans who vote no on all sensible legislation, the supreme (Ptah) court, and ALL owners and purchasers of any gun.

Cheezoholic

(2,004 posts)
17. Anybody as old as me remember those crash films they showed you in drivers ed.?
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:39 AM
Jun 2022

(do they even have drivers ed. anymore?) That shit woke my 15 year old juvenile ass up. You couldn't show that on TV even today.

llmart

(15,532 posts)
35. I remember them.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:22 AM
Jun 2022

I do disagree that they couldn't be shown on TV today. Have you seen the kinds of blood and guts movies and video games that kids see these days?

Hotler

(11,394 posts)
43. Remember the balck & white films in shop class? People losing fingers, hands and
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:01 AM
Jun 2022

one guy got speared by a piece of wood from a table saw. Anyone have wood shop with a teacher that had "all" their fingers?

turbinetree

(24,683 posts)
19. During the Vietnam war every night we got to see the aftermath of someone getting killed......
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 01:41 AM
Jun 2022

and then when Whiteman was blasting away in Texas Tower we got live shots of people getting taken down...and what did we get....we even got film shots of B-17 getting the shit beat out of them on full frontal shots blowing the shit out the planes....and what did that get us...and the all time was my president getting his brains blown out and his wife trying to protect her husband .....while he is grabbing for his throat trying to breath.....and then the second shot slamming the back of his head back.....and the second bullet slamming into his head .....

LeftInTX

(25,122 posts)
26. I was looking at deer killed from AR-15's
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 04:42 AM
Jun 2022

I really don't think this would work.

There isn't much gore. It's just a typical deer that's been killed...

I think what Ramos did was overkill at point blank range.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,905 posts)
49. They had to use DNA to identify some of the remains.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 11:50 AM
Jun 2022

I think it was that bad. Sure it's overkill, but it's still the reality of what happened.

MissMillie

(38,529 posts)
27. Well, this description of the slaughtered kids is enough for me...
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 05:29 AM
Jun 2022

Hell, the word "slaughtered" is enough for me.

And while I'm sure graphic photographs may make a difference with some people, quite frankly it doesn't matter to me what the victims bodies LOOK like. They're victims--some dead and some that will live with physical and emotional injuries that will stay with them forever.

They're victims, and they shouldn't have become victims.

MissMillie

(38,529 posts)
30. I've avoided it.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:51 AM
Jun 2022

Like most of the details about all of the shootings these days.

I don't think my heart can take the unbearable sadness and anger.

llmart

(15,532 posts)
36. That may be how you feel...
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:27 AM
Jun 2022

but there's obviously a good portion of our fellow citizens (aka Trump and his cultists) who don't have the ability to envision the scene just from descriptions. But as has been said, a picture is worth a thousand words and if we reach only a portion of those who actually need to have this shoved in their face, then I'm OK with it.

MissMillie

(38,529 posts)
37. I was indeed speaking for myself
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:41 AM
Jun 2022

However, the vision of A Clockwork Orange comes into my head when people start talking about "forcing" people to see the carnage.

llmart

(15,532 posts)
38. I think the author used the word "force" in a nuanced definition.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:12 AM
Jun 2022

Of course you can't "force" a person to watch something in a TV ad because people can turn their TV's off or change the channel or even shut their eyes or look away. I think the author meant we should put it out there and maybe reach more people that way.

The mamby pamby ads that were put out in the 80's with Reagan's anti-drug use agenda ("This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs&quot showing an egg frying in a pan weren't very effective because people didn't see the real results of drug use from seeing a frying egg in a pan.

MissMillie

(38,529 posts)
41. Well, I think that the people who need to see this stuff
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:48 AM
Jun 2022

are the same ones that laugh it off.

The good news is that a vast majority of people already favor stricter gun regulation. The others are probably the people we will never convince.

DiamondShark

(787 posts)
59. Bad idea.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:54 PM
Jun 2022

Think of all the therapy you will need to provide to the innocent people that you expose to those scenes.

Not to mention, all the psychopaths that worship gore and dream of the day they can cause that kind of carnage.

No thank you, I do not want to live in that world.

callous taoboy

(4,583 posts)
28. My brother described graphic car crash photos shown during driver ed.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 06:35 AM
Jun 2022

This was in the early 70's, and these photos were gone when I came through in the late 70's. Our mom did drive us to the scene of a fatal car crash when I was around 7 or 8 years old. Turned out to be one of my brother's middle school friends who was killed instantly. His grandfather had been driving him home and attempted to cross a busy highway and they were T-boned. It was a gruesome scene that has stuck with me.

SKKY

(11,792 posts)
33. While I admire greatly what Emmett Till's mother did...
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 08:15 AM
Jun 2022

...I think seeing a slaughtered 10-year-old is a bit much. Now, a blood-splattered classroom with toppled desks and bullet holes in the walls? Yes, absolutely. In fact, everyone who works at the gunmaker that made that AR-15, and definitely everyone at the NRA should be required to have that as their desktop background for a year. I know a little something about Windows Group Policy Objects, so I could make it happen for them.

SKKY

(11,792 posts)
51. For sure, and if they do decide to have open caskets, I support them 100%....
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 12:11 PM
Jun 2022

....but I think we can show pictures of the classroom aftermath and have pretty much the same effect. And I hope someone will.

Novara

(5,821 posts)
42. No. WE don't need to see such carnage, but ...
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 09:52 AM
Jun 2022

... all republicans do. All republicans who voted against any gun restriction need to see such carnage.

Hotler

(11,394 posts)
44. Sadly, things might not change until a family member of a sitting repug (fascist)
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:15 AM
Jun 2022

senator or congressmen is a victim of a mass shooting. Only if it happens to them will it change. If it happens to a sitting Democrat they'll sit back and do nothing.

Kaleva

(36,248 posts)
45. It'd be the same as seeing pics of people shot by any gun
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 10:29 AM
Jun 2022

How does one tell the difference between a person shot by an AR-15 12 guage shotgun and someone shot by a pump action 12 guage shotgun?

Or the difference between a person shot by a Ruger Mini chambered for the .223 Remington or an AR 15 style chambered to fire the same round?

Buckeyeblue

(5,499 posts)
54. I don't think it would matter
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 01:50 PM
Jun 2022

Republicans have made their base on the gun issue. Abortion is second.

If they turn on either issue, they lose the base.

Besides, any pictures would be declared fake by the nut-wings.

DiamondShark

(787 posts)
56. Yeah, you dont want to see that.
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:43 PM
Jun 2022

If you are really interested, head over to liveleak. I'm sure they have the video you are looking for.

If you want to see it in person, well that's pretty sick. There are reasons gore is not shown during the evening news.

 

Thtwudbeme

(7,737 posts)
58. Many people on DU couldn't handle reading a late night post by a DUer that had to see the remains
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:52 PM
Jun 2022

of a child hit by a car.

The guy was traumatized and was accused by a poster or two of "gore porn" or something like that.

I read what he wrote- I was a paramedic when I was young; he described it accurately. I felt terrible for him.

What in the hell makes anyone think DUers could handle a photo?

 

demtenjeep

(31,997 posts)
60. yes- Playboy was called gross or something like that so they printed Vietnam photos
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:56 PM
Jun 2022

helped turn the tide

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
61. The way this country is, there would be unintended consequences
Wed Jun 1, 2022, 07:56 PM
Jun 2022

Like conspiracy theories, claims of “staged” photos, etc., more pain for the families.

Not me saying that. That’s some of the reasons why Nicole Hockley of Sandy Hook Promise is against it for those reasons.

People will believe and see what only fits their narrative, until it directly affects them. Even then, I have my doubts.


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