Abortion-Travel Bans Are "Next Frontier" With Roe Set to Topple

[Bucky]

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health-law-and-business/abortion-travel-bans-emerge-as-next-frontier-after-roes-end

Nine states—Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Michigan, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Texas, West Virginia, and Wisconsin—have abortion bans on the books, albeit unenforceable now, that were enacted before Roe was decided in 1973, according to the Guttmacher Institute, a research group that supports abortion rights.

What’s not clear is whether states can enforce their laws beyond their own borders—in particular, by trying to stop their residents from traveling across state lines to terminate a pregnancy. Trying to impose their abortion policies upon other states is what one legal expert calls “the next frontier in anti-abortion legislation.”

“It’s going to be an invitation to states to innovate in restricting and banning abortion,” said David S. Cohen, a professor at Drexel University’s Thomas R. Kline School of Law in Philadelphia, who’s authored an upcoming article on cross-state legal issues that could arise in the context of abortion rights. “There are going to be a number of states who are not satisfied with just knowing that there’s no abortion happening in their own state. They’re going to want to do more than that.”

They'll want to control their citizens to keep them from getting abortions. Cause they won't admit it, but many conservatives see women as wards of the state -- babymaking vessels, incub-o-serfs.

[Walleye]

1. Exactly how do they think they're going to restrict people from traveling in US?I wonder

[pnwmom]

41. They can try to pass laws allowing their citizens to sue people for getting abortions elsewhere.

[Hortensis]

57. They'll criminalize having abortions performed out of state. The family values

people are counting on family and friends, other members of the community, to help identify "travelers" to be arrested and prosecuted. Also on personal internet and other data gathering to identify and make their cases.

[Thomas Hurt]

2. What is to stop them from passing legislation and The Theocratic Court of the United States...

from just whipping up a plausible "constitutional" theory to rubber stamp them.

[Mad_Machine76]

4. They could pass laws

and SCOTUS can approve them but there's still a practical question of how they enforce it, particularly if other pro-choice states won't cooperate?

[Thomas Hurt]

8. travel papers, checkpoints, party apparatchiks going door to door to check women's cycles...

At this point, do you think there are any lengths the christofascists won't go to? These people are fanatics.

[Mad_Machine76]

10. For sure

but will most people accept that?

[Thomas Hurt]

17. naw, people will sneak across the border. Some will get away with it, some won't.

The christofascists intend to make it as hard as possible. I not implying that they are going be able to succeed at banning abortions, no exceptions ever. Of course, the rich will be most likely to dodge the oppressive measures.

[Bucky]

22. In the long run, people won't accept it, but...

a whole lot of women's lives will be disrupted in the mean time. And the laws will persist in many areas for decades, against the popular will, as long as the SCOTUS maintains a working Handmaidens' majority.

And what people will accept is subject to manipulation over time. In 2017, Donald Trump could not have mustered a mob to attack the Capitol and disrupt the counting of the Electoral College results. But four years of manipulation and hysteria and chicanery was able to prepare that ground.

If this anti-abortion-rights regime is able to be sustained for a few years, then absolutely more Americans can be manipulated into supporting more extreme police state tactics to "protect pre-born children".

[kskiska]

27. They can do like China did to enforce their one child policy.

Each neighborhood would have an appointed "nanny" who would be familiar with each family and if any woman became pregnant with a second child, the pregnancy would be terminated. In the U.S. version the "nanny" would have to give permission for any woman to travel, after an administered pregnancy test.

[alphafemale]

42. That was horrifying too.

Most right wingers were fine with abortions up to birth in China.

It was still against the woman's choice. It was fine.

Administering travel restrictions on all women in childbirth years would be a near impossibility.

Airline travel, possibly. But not given the sheer volume of auto traffic and transport.

[mcar]

63. All of that will take lots of $$

that these "taker" states don't have.

[tblue37]

9. I remember cops staking out the Kansas-Missouri border in the 1970s

to catch people returning with alcohol because Kansas was a dry state.

I could see similar stakeouts in the other direction for antichoice states.

[SCantiGOP]

14. Kansas still does that

They routinely stop cars with East Coast license tags coming from Colorado to check for weed.

[tblue37]

16. I still live in Kansas, and that still bums me out.

[exboyfil]

18. Have their trusty probable cause on four legs beside them of course

Obviously in Georgia they are doing the same thing (see Delaware State woman's lacrosse team).

[Norbert]

32. Ohio used to do this not only for liquor but cigerettes as well.

Ohio you bought spirits at the local state liquor stores whereas Kentucky you could but it at grocery stores, convenience stores (7/11) and mom and pop liquor stores. Prices were much lower South of the Ohio River. Same with cigarettes which were much less taxed in Kentucky back in the day.

[exboyfil]

15. Probable cause to give a pregnancy test?

Go through your papers and phone for that doctor's appointment.

Identify individual and go through social media looking for any mention of pregnancy.

Maintaining lists required from IT companies of pregnancy kit purchases, HIPAA waivers to force providers to report pregnancies.

[PortTack]

44. And where is the money going to come from to fund these kinds of efforts? Seriously

You’re talking about a lot lot of money!

[jmowreader]

54. And that, my friend, is probably the only thing that will stop these efforts

To have even a slight chance of succeeding at stopping people from traveling to obtain abortions, they will have to spend about as much money on this effort as they do on everything else the state does. Unless the state wants to cut out all other spending...roads, bridges, schools, arresting drunk drivers, and on and on and on...they will simply HAVE to institute massive tax increases.

In the next election, the Democrats will have a guaranteed winning issue: "We are going to cut taxes by 50 percent by getting the government's nose out of women's vaginas."

The best part: The majority in this country DOES NOT SUPPORT abortion bans! They DO NOT WANT the government regulating people's personal lives to this extent! And they definitely don't want to pay to force every woman to have monthly pregnancy tests at government expense.

[PortTack]

69. Great analysis!!

[Demovictory9]

64. When abortion was illegal in ireland..anti choicers staked out ferries to England

And would harass ypung women on the ferries.. Maybe they will stake out train bus airports

[Retrograde]

21. If you think Alito's mental gymnastics so far were impressive

wait until he starts evoking the Fugitive Slave Law from 1850 to justify keeping women literally in their places. After all, the US Supreme Court never overturned it - and his leaked opinion comes pretty close IMHO to "a woman has no rights a [white] man is obligated to respect"

[Doc Sportello]

3. Will there be roadblocks with pregnancy tests?

I don't see how something like this would be enforced.

[Mad_Machine76]

7. Nothing short of a police state

would stop people traveling from one state to another and all of the busybody bounty hunters in the world won't be able to handle the traffic.

[Doc Sportello]

11. Maybe the opening stage of a police state is part of the plan

I don't know but I agree it would take a police state to enforce a ban like this. Would these fascists do it if they could? Yes. Can they implement this? Doubtful.

[Mad_Machine76]

12. Yeah

It's not the desire but the implementation I have doubts about.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

30. We are already seeing data brokers are selling information on who visits clinics/planned parenthood

People are snitching on themselves by carrying a phone around and/or posting personal information online.

[exboyfil]

38. I wonder if they will start using facial recognition software as well

[Mad_Machine76]

50. I guess this the new reality

we will all have to acquiesce to, then

[Bucky]

23. State police from Anti-Abortion states will stake out abortion clinics...

running license tags, taking photos to run through facial recognition data bases, require health clinics to report on all positive pregnancy tests. Fighting this will require a high-tech underground railroad -- enforcing these "do not travel" laws will become high tech too, and increasingly Big Brotherish

[roamer65]

53. I also expect anti-choice cultists to get jobs in these clinics.

They will probably leak records as well.

Clinics will need to run prospective employees through extensive background checks.

[alphafemale]

60. Maybe in smaller states on small highways

But at the rate an Interstate sees every ten minutes?

It would shut down all commerce and the idea is ludicrous.

[Doc Sportello]

62. Ludicrous ideas don't stop these aholes

But you're right, interstates may not even be possible to shut down. There is an interstate in Kansas I went through that had a toll booth, but I was told that was allowed only because that highway was there before the interstate. You just hope that these ludicrous ideas will backfire at some point, first of all in this year's mid-terms.

[alphafemale]

65. It is just dizzying even trying to get on a Interstate sometimes.

Especially in large cities where it is six lanes across.

But they are going to know where the clinics are unless are made to be cloaked.

And how safe would an abortion continue to be?


Back to unsterile kitchen tables?

[Doc Sportello]

66. The whole thing is disgusting on many levels

From people who yammer about freedom but are willing to create a gestapo to go after women to the fact that many of these repubs voting for these things don't give a shit about the unborn - they are just ginning up the rubes in order to gain money and power.

[alphafemale]

68. They care about the unborn. At least in theory.

But one that kid is south of the cervix it is on its own.

[ck4829]

5. "It'll never happen" - Is what we will hear just before it is legislated

[Bettie]

6. How can they prove that a woman had an abortion while she was out of state?

They don't have access to her medical records. I doubt that, for example, the state of Illinois will turn records over to another state, violating a woman's HIPPA rights.

Are they going to require pregnancy testing at the borders, before any woman can leave the state?

[exboyfil]

13. Probably seeking abortion services will be a one way trip

The women will be subjected to arrest once they return to their home state. Also they could potentially be arrested in a 3rd state that agrees to extradite a woman back to her home state for prosecution.

Kind of reminds you of the fugitive slave laws. I wonder why.

[Freddie]

20. I believe at least one of the states that will protect abortion

(CT?) has a provision in their law that they will not cooperate with other states seeking to prove that a woman had an abortion.
I don’t see how they can regulate interstate travel, but there’s no depth they won’t sink to. Women buying pregnancy tests should use cash only and not use any store card. Research options using a burner phone or in a public library.

[DFW]

19. I saw a minor prelude to this 40 years ago

When France elected Mitterand its president in 1981, to stem capital flight, its customs agents not only were harassing people leaving France, but they also crossed into Switzerland and started harassing French citizens on Swiss territory, a huge breach of international protocol, as well as against Swiss law. Switzerland got fed up and arrested a few of them. They let them go soon after, but the message was delivered. France went berserk, though, and practically sealed off the Swiss border for a week. However, they quickly acknowledged that they had crossed a line, and stopped the practice.

I could see something similar happening with the anti-life states sending their “agents” to harass women who travel to other states to get abortions. If that happens, I wouldn’t mind seeing some over-eager Arkansas woman-haters jailed for six months for assault, attempted kidnapping, or stalking (or consecutive sentences for all three). I’d give them copies of Lysistrata to read in jail instead of bibles, too.

[Bucky]

29. Texas Rangers staking out Colorado abortion clinics. Running facial recognition software.

[DFW]

31. I wish the CO state cops would have arrested them.

It would open a can of worms, but, then what were the TX cops doing there in the first place? Don’t set them free until the polygraph shows they have told the truth when answering that question, and then release a transcript to the media.

[Bucky]

35. Do you know how much private investigators can get away with these days?

Out-of-state state police will have at least that much leeway. Trust me, telling the Colorado Bureau of Investigation to arrest Texas Rangers for stalking will only escalate the tensions between the pro-life and pro-choice factions (as well a fast track the inevitable pro-snoop ruling from the Alito Five on the SCOTUS)

[DFW]

36. A PI has to be licensed to work, and can be arrested if he goes too far

I realize professional courtesy allows them a lot of leeway, and that cops from other states sill demand it, too. But when the purpose of the out-of-state work is purely to harass women fleeing draconian abortion prohibition, I would hope that some states would anticipate it and draw a line.

[LeftInTX]

58. I don't believe this has happened yet!

[DFW]

61. Roe hasn't yet been officially overturned, so it's just speculation

And obviously, France disregarding Switzerland's sovereignty is a far bigger deal that Texas disregarding Colorado's sovereignty. Switzerland is an independent country and not even an EU member.

Right around the time that Mitterand had been in office for about 2 years, someone wrote a tongue-in-cheek novel that was a cult hit in France. It was about a decision of tiny Switzerland to invade and occupy France. The French were so disinclined to take the invasion seriously that it succeeded (someone had obviously seen "The Mouse That Roared&quot . The population of France soon discovered that they liked life under Swiss rule much better than under French rule. Less than a quarter of Switzerland speaks French as their native language, but that is enough to provide some administrative leadership for the whole of France--at least in the novel. I never got a copy, don't even know the title, but just the concept was thought to be both funny and a great idea at the same time. My Swiss office is in Geneva, and my French-speaking colleague there knows some English, some Italian, considers standard German to be the language of warlike car-manufacturers, and Swiss German to be a leftover version of how cave men talked prior to the last Ice Age.

[Zeitghost]

24. You can not be arrested for legal actions taken in one state

By authorities in another. That's been well established and will not be challenged.

It would be like California arresting anyone who possessed a CA illegal firearm on a trip to Nevada. I know times are strange right now, but this isn't something that will change.

[Bucky]

28. You and I don't know what lengths they'll go to

And sure, it looks like it's unconstitutional for a state to impose its laws on its citizens when they're out of state. But once they to the point of classifying abortion as murder (and they're already going there in some states) then interstate enforcement of laws kicks into a different gear. They'll find ways to criminalize the organizations helping poor women travel out of state. They'll go after the companies that've pledged to help their employees travel out of state for abortions. They'll start looking for ways to find out when women get pregnant ("Hippa rules don't only apply to the mother, but also to the UNBORN ZYGOTE-AMERICAN SHE'S TRYING TO SLAY!!!" and sundry bullshit like that.) They'll weaponize medical licensing to ensure that doctors and nurses do nothing to inform or aid women in traveling out of state...

Deranged vision of invasion of personal privacy, you say? Sorry, but this is the wrong year and the wrong Supreme Court to say things like "well established and will not be challenged." One thing is clear from Alito's sweeping anti-abortion (not just anti-Roe) language in his decision draft is that he was laying the legal groundwork for protecting all fetuses from abortion.

[Zeitghost]

47. Roe was always vulnerable

Most saw it as well established law, but anyone paying attention knew that without an amendment, it was always 5 right wing votes away from being overturned. Many just assumed they would never get that many justices on the court.

The prohibitions from State A enforcing their laws on actions or people in State B are much more established and overturning them would cause chaos for everyone and on all fronts. It simply will not happen.

[Bucky]

49. So in your view, they'll stop encroaching on established rights with the Sudetenland?

I don't know if they'll get any further in using women's rights as a punching bag in order to corral poor whites into voting for their rightwing pro-plunder agenda, but I can guarantee you they won't stop trying to push further into established American civil rights to maintain their culture war hysteria. When they'll openly lie to get onto the Supreme Court, I just don't think there's any guaranteed boundaries they won't cross.

[Zeitghost]

55. There was a legal mechinism

To overturn Roe. It was left unprotected. It was never enshrined into federal law, it was never added to the Constitution, it was established through careful and clever legal arguments that relied on implied rights "emanating from the penumbra" of the Constitution. No matter where you fall on abortion or where you fall on originalism vs a living Constitution, you have to understand that isn't the strongest ground to stand on, with only the votes of 5 people needed to cast it aside.

That is a far cry from the legal principle that an action has to be tried as a crime in the jurisdiction in which it occurred.


We have unfortunately raised a few generations of people who mistakenly believed Roe was somehow as untouchable as our right to free speech or religious freedom or the right to a jury trial, etc. Your argument here, along with your claim that anyone lied when they acknowledged Roe as precedent during confirmation hearings leads me to believe you were in this group. We never should have rested on the victory of Roe and should have spent the last 50 years working to enshrine it into federal law. The right played the long game and won this battle.

[budkin]

25. Totally unconstitutional and will NEVER pass

You can't dictate where people travel.

[Marius25]

33. You really think this fascist Supreme Court cares?

[budkin]

40. Yeah you're right, I'm just in denial

Things are bad.

[exboyfil]

39. The Constitution is what the six GOP justices say it is

and we are no were close enough electorally to do anything about it.

[unblock]

26. Fugitive slave act redux

Yet more ingredients for another civil war....

[Marius25]

34. Connecticut passed a law that any women who go there for

an abortion can't be extradited to a Red state for it.

[Bucky]

52. I don't know if you noticed, but Alito's anti-Roe draft blew right past mention of states' rights

This wasn't an endgame for the anti-abortion agenda. This was a weigh-station. Alito's language was laying the groundwork for a nation-wide anti-abortion argument. It's an individual rights of the fetus not to be aborted argument he was making, even if he had to hail back to a 16th century witch hunter to find a decisis they could stare at.

I think we need to quit counting on the self restraint of the "small government" party. They're theocrats; not because God told them to think that way, but because that, ultimately, is the most efficient way to numb the skulls of their voters and keep them enthralled with the conservative economic hierarchy.

[PlanetBev]

37. Republicans will eventually destroy themselves with their zealotry

But not before they do a great deal of damage to the rest of us.

[Karma13612]

56. Truer words have never been spoken....nt

[LonePirate]

43. These bans are clearly unconstitutional but that likely won't matter to the corrupt SCOTUS.

We have some very dark days ahead of us.

[themaguffin]

45. If such a thing happened, their own "states rights" dogma would be erased.

[Bucky]

46. Oh no, how could Republicans ever recover from such open faced hypocricy?

[roamer65]

48. Michigan's pre-Roe ban is under injunction by the Michigan Court of Claims.

It cannot be enforced until there is a final ruling on the 1931 law.

We control the Michigan Supreme Court, 4-3.

It’s toast.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. Then won't it go to interstate commerce?

Technically - it's a purchase out of state. I'm concerned about this, as well as the States trying to impose their little rules on the United States Postal Service.

[LeftInTX]

59. Bonnie and Clyde were killed 88 yrs ago today by Texas Rangers in Louisiana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde

Just a bit of trivia.

Don't know the legalities or anything.

I'm pretty sure it was never challenged or anything...

[Initech]

67. Forced birthing is extremely cruel and inhumane!

Hey fundie fascists, you want these unborn babies in the world? You get to raise them, then!