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Thu May 19, 2022, 12:58 PM

Miss me with that replacement bullshit.

Last edited Thu May 19, 2022, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

"Orbán argued this week that the western world was “committing suicide” through immigration"

Orban and racist anti-immigrationists forget how this country was founded. Their racist sickness needs the medicinal historical reminder in every single generation.

1.
The word "sovereignty" was never in OUR founding documents. "Asylum" was.

The United States was founded as an asylum and refuge: a sanctuary.

This was a form of patriotism.

The word "nationalism" never existed either in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or in America's first dictionary by Webster. The word "asylum" didn't exist in that dictionary until the end of 18th Century, and the thing itself was not codified until the 19th Century.

-- Thomas Paine in "Common Sense" called America "an asylum for mankind."

-- The Declaration Of Independence cites as one of the abuses of the king, his having discouraged and even prevented people from coming to the colonies by "Obstructing Laws for Naturalization" and "refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither."

-- George Washington wrote in 1788: "I had always hoped that this land might become a safe & agreeable Asylum to the virtuous & persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong."

-- Thomas Jefferson in 1817 described the United States as offering "a sanctuary for those whom the misrule of Europe may compel to seek happiness in other climes."

Get it? From the Founders, themselves undocumented immigrants.

2.
For 283 years, America was literally a sanctuary for debtors, criminals, poor people and theocratic groups. Monarchs' corporate projects (Jamestown & Plymouth) brought people to America that European countries didn't want -- their "white trash."

Early Americans "excepted" themselves, never gave a though to being undocumented -- and made themselves "American."
The Founders recognized and applauded that self-naming exceptionalism, that your life isn't determined by your birth.

America, for those 283 years, promoted itself, built its culture, told and wrote "founding stories" about itself around this exceptionalism.

For 283 years, undocumented immigrants excepted themselves as a founding people.

Our "Legal" immigration system started in 1882. It has always been a cockblock set up by the "illegal" immigrants who got here first. That cockblock CONSTRUCT is based on money, racism, xenophobia and fear -- their old baggage from the home countries that were glad to get rid of THEM.

Reagan knew that "legal immigration" was a mere legal construct. That's why he ruled to give complete amnesty to MILLIONS of undocumented immigrants. By accepting them and not the construct, he used the first exceptionalism of the founders to except immigrants as Americans.

Even as autocratic leaders build walls against immigration, America absolutely does not have to give up on being the Founders country built on that First Exceptionalism.

3.
Whether our racist anti-immigrants like it or not, they need to remember this when they talk "Legality":

Unless their ancestors were here before 1492, your ancestors were immigrants, documented or not; that fact means that neither you nor anyone else have any "legal" business telling people to stay out.

Why? Because America was FOUNDED by the Founders on that second American Exceptionalism --

-- THE FREEDOM TO BE HERE.

Undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in state and local taxes every single year — in all 50 states.

That includes $7 billion in sales taxes and excise taxes, and about $1.1 billion in state income taxes and $3.6 billion in property taxes every single year — money that funds public schools, garbage collection, and other public services.


So Orban, CPAC, Tuckums & his bloody boss, Murdoch and all the rest of our domestic racist fascists shooting (literally) for minority fascist rule?? Go fuck yourselves.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu May 19, 2022, 12:59 PM

1. KnR

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu May 19, 2022, 01:10 PM

2. Nice gestures involved, but absolutely NOT a position the Democratic Party should take

Unless we want to lose every election.

Very, very few people in the USA want 'open borders', as this diatribe seems to be suggesting.

May be a legit founding principle, but then ... so was slavery. So was women as non-persons. So was only white property owners being allowed to vote.

Not every idea that was great in 1776 ... is still great in 2022.

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #2)

Thu May 19, 2022, 01:19 PM

3. This is not nice gestures, a diatribe, OR a suggestion that America wants open borders.

Yes, it was a legit founding principle, and absolutely no, the founders knew -- they knew -- that slavery was not a legit founding principle, because they knew that it was against natural law to even think that other humans could be 'named' property, no matter how much pen-to-paper tried to make it legit. Women and children were full persons under the headship principle that was a norm of patriarchal Europe.

Sure, the Constitution was imperfectly (and forcefully edited by the Calhoun-led states) constructed. But it offers its own structure for amending itself. And the Ninth Amendment is the 'explaining' amendment for the constituting of other human rights -- personhood, voting rights, privacy rights, even education.

Did I say every idea that was great in 1776 is still great in 2022? No I did not.

I say the Democratic Party owes it to the nation to tell the truth about immigration history as part of its effort to reform immigration law. Open borders, no. Reformed, humane immigration laws, yes.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #3)

Thu May 19, 2022, 04:50 PM

5. I appreciate your passion, and your compassion :)

Did I say YOU said "every idea that was great in 1776 is still great in 2022"

No I did not

I'm not arguing about the morality or overall 'rightness' of the position you're outlining, only the politics and the state of the general population's attitude.

And that attitude is, broadly-speaking ... we don't want more immigrants, and we don't care about what the Founders thought on the subject in the late 1700's, that was a way different world.

It's very hard to teach people history lessons that they don't really want to hear.

You know what might work? Convincing the populace they'll somehow have more money in their pockets if we allow more immigration. Their groceries will cost less, their cars will cost less, etc. That's about the only angle I can think of that MIGHT work to accomplish the noble goals you speak of.

It's sad but people don't care about the moral argument, or the historical argument. This country has lost our compassion in so many ways, but esp. on this issue, thanks in large part to endless demagoguery from the Cons.

And they've ENGRAINED on the population the idea that Democrats only support immigration cause the corporations that support our party want the cheap labor (never mind it's far more true of the other party), and the party itself wants the immigrant's votes.

Sad, but we can't magically undo this brainwashing the population has been subjected to for decades.

And personally I'd have little problem with Democrats promoting merit-based immigration. You know, like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and MANY other countries we like and approve of ... already do?

Yes it's not our heritage, so to speak, and we're 'supposed to be better' than that ... I get it. It's disappointing.

But we won't be able to undo the prevailing attitude ... with a grand display of our virtuousness and some history lessons that almost nobody actually wants to get.

With SO much on the line right now, we need to take political positions that are WINNERS.

The one you're talking about? Is not one of those. It will lose more votes than it will gain.

MHO, fwiw.

I apologize for my unbridled pragmatism, I wish I could adopt your more compassionate stance, I do appreciate it

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #5)

Thu May 19, 2022, 06:35 PM

8. I hear you. We do, however, agree on the pragmatic economic benefits of immigrants.

Last edited Thu May 19, 2022, 08:32 PM - Edit history (1)

As for your "unbridled pragmatism," I'm sensing there might be a touch of cynicism and voter distrust in it.

We Democrats have taken political positions that are "WINNERS."

The 2018 midterm wave that made up part of the 81 million record vote for Biden, did so in support of the whole Democratic Party policy package. Immigration was part of that package. The facts and arguments we made on immigration helped spread the realization that the country benefits economically from all the taxes and SS payments that immigrants contribute. The younger generation of voters is growing. This time it's not a stretch to think that the 81 million, can appreciate and argue for the already successful merit based immigration that our more civilized allies use.

I still think the Democratic Party package now has a sufficiently successful track record to keep up the last two waves. I also think we'll do okay because the moral lines of political construction and destruction are clearer than ever for non- and new voters. Our four years of help in service of "saving the soul of America" won't have been for nothing.

Please. Don't apologize, Hugh. I do very much appreciate your political view of the electorate here, and do feel humbled by your courtesy and respect.

Whether it's you, me, or anyone we spar with here in primary and general days, my political position is driven by the belief that Democrats on their worst day will always be better than Republicans on their best day.







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Response to ancianita (Reply #8)

Thu May 19, 2022, 06:40 PM

9. Thanks sister, back at ya. And yeah, we're WAY better people than them!

And yeah, I'm being cynical, you're right

Good talk

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #2)

Thu May 19, 2022, 01:33 PM

4. This is the position the Democratic Party should take:

The Democratic Party owes it to the nation to tell the truth about immigration history as part of its effort to reform immigration law.

From the Democratic Party: Open borders, no. Reformed, humane immigration laws, yes.

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #2)

Thu May 19, 2022, 05:20 PM

6. I searched for the phrase 'Open Borders'

Didn't find it in the OP.

The Republican party wants an exploitable working class. They want "undocumented" immigrants, but they call they migrant workers. It they were serious about curtailing "illegal/undocumented" immigration, they'd fine employers more than nuisance amounts.

I bet few of the Irish and Scots Irish and Southern & Eastern European Ellis Islanders who came here 100+ years ago had pre-approved permission from the US government. Our immigration policies have always been about keeping those people out.

You're* here w/o papers, why, it's almost like a slur against new immigrants, a way to distant the third or fourth generation from their immigrant roots, and make older immigrants feel superior. Does the immigrant work, obey the law, pay his bills on time, build a business and a family? Yeah, we don't wan that here.

It's not immigrants sacking the Capitol threatening to hang Mike Pence while smearing shit on the walls. It's not immigrants committing election fraud. It's not immigrants committing mass murder at grocery stores.

No one is suggesting open borders. Asylum isn't a crime. Our policies Central America create the very conditions many refugees are fleeing.

Of note: the further from the Mexican Border, the louder the cries.



*you plural, like all y'all

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Response to Claire Oh Nette (Reply #6)

Thu May 19, 2022, 05:46 PM

7. I understand all your points and they're good ones, esp. morally

And I didn't say 'open borders' is literally in the OP, rather, I said, specifically 'as this diatribe seems to be suggesting'.

There's also no mention of any actionable plan here, so ...

Anything that Democrats do right now, pre-mid-terms, that gives the Cons a chance to remotely-reasonably claim that our side wants to increase immigration ... is going to hurt us in November.

I get the moral arguments, I get the history, I understand asylum. I get it. I've made the arguments you're making ... at other times.

Politically, Dems trying to explain to the public how this country was founded on immigration per the Founders, and that's why we need to 'reform' immigration policies, 6 months from THESE midterms? VERY risky.

And what exactly are those 'reforms' going to be? Once they see them, how many people will WANT those reforms we're to outline ... unless we also convince them that more immigration will put MONEY in their own pockets, and food on their tables?

Seems to me like it's a fraught-with-peril, political loser for us, and we need to win come November.

Let's WIN, and then talk about this?

MHO, fwiw.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Thu May 19, 2022, 07:22 PM

10. K&R

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