Check in here if you're concerned about the ways our military has deteriorated since 1917

[struggle4progress]

I'm personally worried about why we've allowed ourselves to fall so far behind the cutting edge in our acoustic aircraft ranging technology today


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003682X99000213

But I'm also wondering what happened to all the trenches! We used to have a lot more trenches!

[ProudProgressiveNow]

1. K&R. Classic. nt

[The Magistrate]

2. The Lack Of Broadside Guns And Yardarms, Sir, Is Most Destressing

I suspect the fleet lacks a single Protected Cruiser nowadays....

[gateley]

6. Most distressing!

[struggle4progress]

16. Our abandonment of sailing sloop technology is simply criminal: how will we fight another world war

after we run out of coal and oil?

[The Magistrate]

22. I Doubt, Sir, If We Could Get a Single Ship Up Out Of Ordinary Into Full Rig Nowadays

Well, maybe one...



And to be fair, it does kind of bother me that they no longer teach celestial navigation, relying completely on G.P.S. signals....

[Retrograde]

42. I believe the USS Constitution and USS Constellation are still afloat

The British ship of equivalent age - HMS Victory - has been in dry dock for ages, so if we need to refight the War of 1812 we have an edge.

[JPZenger]

67. Anecdote about the Constellation

The USS Constitution in Boston is the same ship from 1800. However, the USS Constellation in Baltimore is not. For many years, there were some inferences that it was the 1800 ship, but now it is clearly identified as circa 1855. What happened was: Congress would not approve funding for building new ships, but they would approve funding for rehabilitating ships. So they put the old Constellation in a dock, scrapped her, built a new sloop at the same time, and pretended it was the old ship. It did look like the old ship, from the point of view of a layperson.

[CTyankee]

57. Now, waitaminut, buddy! My grandaughter's boarding school teaches a course in

celestial navigation! There's a bunch of kids who are devoted to sailing and crew and they take that course. Not my granddaughter, tho, cuz she thinks they are a bit, uh, strange, but still...

[oneshooter]

21. No there isn't. There is however a surviving Dreadnought BB left.

The USS Texas (BB35) launched 1914

[The Magistrate]

29. A Grand Old Example, Too, Sir

But I suspect further deterioration of our military might under President Obama is revealed by the terrific shortage of 14" shells and black powder charges necessary to fit her out for war duties against a resurgent Soviet Union --- excuse me, Russian Federation....

[oneshooter]

31. The powder used was cordite, not black.

[The Magistrate]

32. Not So Sure About That, Sir

"From the shell deck, the projectiles were lifted via the upper hoists to a position behind and inboard of the gun breeches. Where the 1st loaders tilted them to a horizontal position and they spilled them onto the transfer trays with their noses toward the breech.105 lb. Propellant charges were wrapped in silk fabric. Black powder within. Red quilted ignition pads were sewn on one end. These “Bags” were stored in metal cans, two to a can, in the powder magazines. In order to fire the guns, the bags were removed from the cans and passed through scuttles designed to prevent any fire etc. from passing from or into the powder magazines. (note picture above). Water tubs were kept handy to immerse broken bags or loose propellant grains. The powder bags were placed in hoists which brought them up in pairs to a position forward of the “trunnions” or gun supports. Men then passed the bags through a scuttle which emptied onto the tray in the “Gun Pit” beneath the breech of the 14” guns."

http://www.usstexasbb35.com/14_naval_gun.htm

(scroll down to bottom of the linked page for the quoted portion, but I expect you will find the whole item an interesting read)

[oneshooter]

33. Should read.

Black powder within the red quilted ignition pads were sewn on one end.

Black powder was a primer charge. The red end always pointed to the breech of the rifle.

[oneshooter]

36. By the way. I am a volunteer guide on the USS Texas.

I also spend a lot of time helping to restore/maintain her.

She's a Grand Old Lady!

[A HERETIC I AM]

43. Did'nt the Texas spring a leak a while back?

Seems to me I read a while back that she was taking on water and had settled further into the mud

[oneshooter]

48. The leak was found and plugged. She does not "sit in the mud"

but is floating. Due for a drydock stay, the last one was 22 years ago.





Working with 40,000 tons of steel above you. Sitting on wooden blocks!

[hunter]

52. As a native of earthquake country, I do not like that...

I've had things fall on me. Thankfully, small things.

[The Magistrate]

60. I Did Mis-Read That, Sir: You Are Correct

I was working off an imperfect memory of a history of naval artillery read a few years ago; they referred to the charges as 'powder', and I recalled it as black powder. Ships are not my much my subject, though I am not wholly ignorant concerning them.

Step out of line on Great War aeroplanes, though, and I will nail you to the wall....

A pleasure to make your acquaintance, Sir.

[oneshooter]

72. USS Texas 1919

First US battleship to launch a aeroplane.












More at http: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/35e.htm

[The Magistrate]

77. A Fellow I Know Has Done An Excellent Model Of The Texas Camel, Sir

I am presently working on a model of one of the Marine Aviation Fokker DVIIs at Quantico in 1922.

[JPZenger]

69. Yesterday, Ryan said we need more battleships (which were obsolete after Pearl Harbor)

Ryan yesterday actually said the the US needs more "battleships." There hasn't been a new battleship built in 67 years because they are obsolete. That didn't stop Ronnie Ray-gun from bringing 4 WWII battleships out of mothballs for 2 years, at the cost of billions of dollars. It may great video to see one of the battleships firing on the coast of Lebanon. What could possibly go wrong? However, that barrage killed many people and reportedly spurred the destruction of the US Marine Barracks in Lebanon, costing hundreds of American lives.

Then Ronnie Raygun spent hundreds of millions of dollars building a new navy base in Staten Island for one of those battleships, in the district of one of his favorite Congressmen. The new base was finished about the same time that the battleship was permanently decommissioned. I was watching a Congressional hearing where some members of Congress at the time were incredulous that the base was still under construction even though the battleship it was supposed to serve would no longer be in service.

Admiral Dewey's Flagship from the Spanish-American War is still available. The USS Olympia is on display in Philadelphia.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

38. +1

[JHB]

66. How will we ever stop the Kaiser's Kreigsmarine from shelling our seaboard?!

I mean, our aeroplanes only have one wing these days, dammit!

[KoKo]

74. Absolutely, "Sir"! Obama Govt. needs to get on this...ASAP! To FAIL means the EMPIRE is in DANGER.

or FALLS!

[gateley]

3. ....

Well done!

[jmowreader]

4. We might have to fight the Huns and Bolsheviks again...

So yeah, your concern is well founded.

We are also REAL short on observation balloons, bazookas and hand-cranked Gatling guns.

[struggle4progress]

11. And hardly any American pilots can properly toss a handheld bomb from a biplane

[jmowreader]

26. Now that you mention it

We are completely out of prop planes and tanks that run on gasoline.

[Flashmann]

5. We used to have a lot more trenches!

Yeah....And What the hell happened to all the war wagons...?..

[jmowreader]

27. Rufus T. Firefly was aware of that

"Mr. President, our troops are digging trenches."

"Digging trenches? There's no time for that. We'll buy them ready made. Get them this high and our soldiers won't need any pants. No, get them this high and we won't need any soldiers."

[Darth_ Deciduous]

7. Science

I think that PBO mentioned something about a boat that goes under the surface of water!

How can that be?!?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. Less flapper parties.

Don'tcha know, the boys gotta blow off some steam out there!

[Aristus]

9. You know what we really need to bring back?

The tin hat! Not enough of those in our military anymore. Ah, 1916; those were the days...

[struggle4progress]

12. You can only get tin foil hats nowadays

[msanthrope]

14. Remember--Shiny Side Out!! nt

[thucythucy]

10. And I doubt we have a single yard of that new-fangled

telegraph wire. Most distressing.

[thelordofhell]

13. Bring back the U.S. Camel Corps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Camel_Corps

[struggle4progress]

17. And there's only one Sopwith Camel left! Suppose we suddenly need a bunch of em?

[mmonk]

15. Well, if we had a military like 1917, we certainly wouldn't be involved in as many wars.

[Guitarzz]

18. This Question Might Have Been Pertinent - In 1918.

[Zorra]

19. I'm particularly concerned about the degradation of our air warfare capabilities.

[bluesbassman]

20. Well, when they got rid of spit-shined jump boots it all went to hell.

Too much free time now.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Bunkers! We've completely given up on defense lines of bunkers!

[sofa king]

24. We are more effective and less lethal.

The fact of the matter is that the battlefields of 1917/1918 were the most lethal battlefield environment ever created or endured. An infantryman on the front line of that year could at any time expect to be assaulted simultaneously by repeating rifle fire, automatic weapons, shrapnel, land mines and unexploded ordnance, barbed wire, grenades, dehydration, starvation, pestilence, and a variety of chemical weapons.

There were more troops in a mile of front than there are in entire regions of Afghanistan. There were more troops on either side of the Western Front in 1917 than there are people in the 68 square miles of Washington DC today.

The ground literally seethed with vermin while the air was filled with deadly projectiles, poison gas, and poisonous dirt--and there were no antibiotics, so the dirt itself was deadly. Lucky troops were able to stumble to their certain deaths under the influence of an accidental double-issue of rum, beer, wine or vodka. Most just stumbled to certain death.

One British veteran estimated that every night, several hundred people on the Western Front drowned in mud or by falling into latrines, which suggests that in 1917, more people drowned in shit every month than the total number of Americans killed in the entire Iraq war.

Into that lethal maw troops were massed in ways you would only see on a parade ground today, many of them with only weeks or months of training. The whole of the world's industrial output was devoted to keeping a soldier alive for five to fifteen minutes in battle, and it did a terrible job of that.

Human life was cheaper than the septic dirt over which they fought. That is the real difference between then and now: we have learned that one brigade of well-trained and well-protected volunteers is worth more than an entire army of poorly trained and equipped conscripts.

It's also more expensive for the side that takes our path, and almost free (except in tragedy) for those who oppose us, because they simply cannot afford fight us directly and are necessarily forced into guerrilla tactics.

I'm not even going to bother mentioning Romney's stupid naval theories--they're just rubbish and the President's mocking of them speaks to the subject more eloquently than I would. Suffice to say that one aircraft carrier group and one nuclear attack submarine could have wrecked the entire battle line of the German High Seas Fleet in an afternoon, and the Germans would never even see an opposing ship. That effectiveness comes at a massive price, one Mitt's non-existent budgeting simply cannot address.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

25. We've probably lost a few naval coaling stations around the globe

Others have been re-purposed, and, according to rumors, THERE IS NO COAL at these stations.

[The Magistrate]

30. Scandalous, Sir! No Coal....

[KoKo]

75. The die is cast....we need to do more for COAL..

It isn't enough to just lip sync some old lyrics of John Lennon....we need to DO MORE!

[central scrutinizer]

28. The trebuchet gap is scandalous!

[link:|

And what about our inability to keep with battering ram technology?

[Populist_Prole]

34. Great thread; reading it is cracking me up

The stinging satire.

[PD Turk]

35. where are the autogyros?

My god, I don't think we have a single autogyro left flying!! We're so screwed!!

[oneshooter]

40. I believe that there are a few left. The are camoflaged as civilian aircraft.

[PD Turk]

44. Oh thank heavens

for a minute there I thought all hope was lost

[Horse with no Name]

37. For some reason, I feel compelled to break out in song.....

[ProudProgressiveNow]

39. One of the best threads eva!!! nt

[pinboy3niner]

41. Whatever happened to soldiers foraging for chickens?

Our troops never forage for chickens any more!1!! Doesn't the President know that an army travels on its stomach???

[PD Turk]

45. BREAKING: Romney calls for repeal of the 3rd Amendment

Gotta have a place to keep the Army!

[L0oniX]

46. Let's bring back mustard gas! n/t

[oneshooter]

49. NO. Lets not.

[MineralMan]

47. Well, we should still be using the 1903 Springfield Rifle in combat,

I say.


Bolt action rules!

Incidentally, my deer rifle is a sporterized version of that rifle. However, I would not recommend it in an infantry battle. Truly.

[oneshooter]

51. How about the BAR?

[L0oniX]

53. You've been watching too much Combat.

[oneshooter]

73. The Browning BAR was accepted by the US Army in 1918.

Wiki: By July 1918, the BAR had begun to arrive in France, and the first unit to receive them was the U.S. Army's 79th Infantry Division, which took them into action for the first time on 13 September 1918.[7] The weapon was personally demonstrated against the enemy by 2nd Lieutenant Val Allen Browning, the inventor's son.[7] Despite being introduced very late in the war, the BAR made an impact disproportionate to its numbers; it was used extensively during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive and made a significant impression on the Allies (France alone requested 15,000 automatic rifles to replace their notoriously unreliable Chauchat machine rifle).[7]



John M. Browning's son Lt. Val Browning with the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle

[MineralMan]

54. Never fired one of those.

I've put a lot of rounds through my Springfield, though, at the range, and only a very few in the field. I was lucky. Mine is extremely accurate, and every deer has been taken with a single shot. My longest shot was 400 yds. in the California Sierras, near Lone Pine. Not a big buck, but very nice, all the same.

[oneshooter]

78. I have. As a E-5 range officer and instructor at Parris Island I had

many opportunities to visit the base armory. There were, in 1977 154 BAR's in inventory. Checked one out, along with 10 mags and 400rds of ammo and went to the range.
LOTS OF FUN!!!

The WW2 Marines had a lot of respect for the BAR and I found out why. At 20lbs it had a light recoil, I could squeeze off 1-2-3 shots with a little practice, and hit the targets at 4-500 yards.

[11 Bravo]

50. I understand that Obama has allowed our supply of mustard gas to dwindle!

[struggle4progress]

56. I heard he replaced all the mustard gas with mayonnaise gas: we're doomded!

[pinboy3niner]

59. "mayonnaise gas," ROFL!

Duzy!

[Hekate]

61. At that rate we'll never ketchup with the Bolsheviks!

You guys....

[struggle4progress]

64. !

[Rosa Luxemburg]

55. Gosh, I miss the bludgeons

[REP]

58. Not enough M1917 Enfields!

[FVZA_Colonel]

62. I, for one, really am concerned about the attempts by the Hohenzollern Reich to eclipse our allies

in Britain in terms of the tonnage of displacement of their battleships!

Willard Romney understands my concerns!

[TheBluestEye]

63. Those cutbacks in homing pigeon and messenger dog technology will haunt us....

for years to come. Mark my words.

[The Magistrate]

79. Vital Part Of Any Working War Machine, Sir

This one received the croix de guerre....

[Javaman]

65. I agree! Let's bring back carpet bombing, Dum Dum bullets and Gas!!!

[JHB]

68. We're left to cobble together our own tanks, rather than using state of the art standard...

...French-build Renault tanks.



Ok, that's 1918, but in 1917 the best we had were some armored cars.

[The Magistrate]

70. Grand-Daddy Of Them All, Sir

Not the first tanks, but the first ones with revolving turrets....

[warrprayer]

71. Don't Give Up the Ship!

or horses and bayonets in Erie Pa!

"We have met the enemy, and they are ours"! - Commodore Perry





We must be ready to repell the Canadians!

[KoKo]

76. AYE, SIR! But the drones and the 20 Somethings are Kicking our BUTTS!

What can we do? And, what about our "GOOGLE" ....SIR?

[warrprayer]

80. I've got something for their ass

from 1917, sir! Just the thing for when you wake up in the trench with a hangover...

What the F*ck do you think I'm shootin' at?

85. No Man’s Land

By James H. Knight-Adkin


NO Man’s Land is an eerie sight
At early dawn in the pale gray light.
Never a house and never a hedge
In No Man’s Land from edge to edge,
And never a living soul walks there 5
To taste the fresh of the morning air;—
Only some lumps of rotting clay,
That were friends or foemen yesterday.

What are the bounds of No Man’s Land?
You can see them clearly on either hand, 10
A mound of rag-bags gray in the sun,
Or a furrow of brown where the earthworks run
From the eastern hills to the western sea,
Through field or forest o’er river and lea;
No man may pass them, but aim you well 15
And Death rides across on the bullet or shell.

But No Man’s Land is a goblin sight
When patrols crawl over at dead o’ night;
Boche or British, Belgian or French,
You dice with death when you cross the trench. 20
When the “rapid,” like fireflies in the dark,
Flits down the parapet spark by spark,
And you drop for cover to keep your head
With your face on the breast of the four months’ dead.

The man who ranges in No Man’s Land 25
Is dogged by the shadows on either hand
When the star-shell’s flare, as it bursts o’erhead,
Scares the gray rats that feed on the dead,
And the bursting bomb or the bayonet-snatch
May answer the click of your safety-catch, 30
For the lone patrol, with his life in his hand,
Is hunting for blood in No Man’s Land.

[bluedigger]

81. Where are the flying Jeeps?

What the heck have we been spending all that money on, if we don't even have flying Jeeps yet?

[warrprayer]

82. But Sir!

Who needs flying Jeeps when you have winged cavalry!