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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA federal court has ruled that obstructing the electoral vote count is illegal. Trump should panic.
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This December 10 Friedrich opinion does indeed seem important to me, constitutional legal scholar Laurence Tribe tells me. Whether it is an obstruction charge or a charge of sedition or conspiracy to commit sedition (under either sections 2383 or 2384 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code) Tribe observes that the principal obstacle to prosecution has been the argument that the electoral count certification in the Joint Session of Congress is too ministerial to count as an official proceeding. However, Tribe concludes, This federal court opinion undercuts that line of argument.
Former acting solicitor general Neal Katyal has been voicing this exact argument for some time. Judge Friedrichs decision means the prosecutors dont have to show someone intended violence for it to be a crime, he explains. So long as the intent was to influence and disrupt the congressional function of counting the votes, that is sufficient so long as it was done corruptly. Katyal notes that the judge cited a prior ruling by a conservative superstar jurist, Judge Laurence Silberman, [who] defined corruptly to be to be doing something by unlawful means.
Katyal argues: So as long as the intent was to disrupt the count, it would suffice to be criminal, which of course makes a lot of sense given the grave stakes here. What is true of these two defendants, he adds, goes for others, including anyone in the White House who aided the disruption. He concludes that Judge Friedrichs decision, at bottom, is a how-to manual, demonstrating how government officials, including President Trump, can be criminally indicted."Text
Too many people have let themselves be sidetracked into looking for a connection between Trump and the violence of Jan. 6. But that evidence is unnecessary because the crime here is the end result the intended disruption of the House electoral vote-counting. And from every document, news report or tell-all book we have seen, that is precisely what Trump tried to do. Simply because he told the world about his corrupt intent does not make it any less illegal.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/14/federal-court-has-ruled-that-obstructing-electoral-vote-count-is-illegal-trump-should-panic/
Wounded Bear
(58,793 posts)Scrivener7
(51,090 posts)gab13by13
(21,512 posts)a big felony, like 20 years.
no_hypocrisy
(46,313 posts)intheflow
(28,521 posts)Karadeniz
(22,607 posts)PortTack
(32,823 posts)Will supplant legally appointed electors, count only the votes they want and other such nonsense. The electoral vote count act and other constitutional protections will knock these laws flat. It wont be a slam dunk, but much of those laws will fail.
wnylib
(21,798 posts)easily tossed out. The Constitution gives the states the right to establish their own election laws. So long as those laws don't violate civil rights, they are allowed.
The Constitution also gives states the right to choose their electors. It does not have to be by popular vote. In fact, it was distrust of the popular vote that caused the Constitution's authors to establish the electoral college and allow states to appoint electors.
I hope there is a way around those suppression laws, but I don't see one other than abolishing the EC with an amendment which is almost impossible to do.
CaptainTruth
(6,619 posts)...an official government proceeding.
Yea, throw it at the wall & see if it sticks.
I was glad to see the judge allow the charge a couple days ago because a lot of other insurrectionists face the same charge & this should set a precedent that applies to all those other cases so this point doesn't have to be debated in every case. It should speed things up a bit.
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)Stuart G
(38,458 posts)Lock him up
louis-t
(23,315 posts)Did I say that out loud?
quakerboy
(13,925 posts)They are already setting up the mechanisms to take control over the next few elections regardless of what voters do, and several Democratic senators are voting to make sure the way is clear for them to do so.
What do they have to fear? a few lawsuits that will get drug out as long as need be?
childfreebychoice
(476 posts)Replacing non t* supporting rethugs/Dem election officials with t* loyalists, endowed with the ability to overturn election results they don't like. Add to that, SCOTUS, gerrymandering, manchin, sinema, and the one unnamed Dem, Biden mentioned, times one, who is against getting rid of filibuster... one party rule, for yrs, on the horizon. Everyday so glad we made decidion to become expats, come next yr will become citizens of Panama
bucolic_frolic
(43,520 posts)having studied philosophy, human nature, history, ancient Rome, Cromwell, the Glorious Revolution of 1688 - that one of the purposes of all the ceremony, tradition, pagentry of the confirmation of the Electoral College Vote was to provide multiple opportunities for seditionists to be laid bare so that coups could fail. Closely examined, the entire process really is a thread-the-needle ritual that seems like no big deal when it runs smoothly, but try to mess with it and it doesn't cooperate very much.
wnylib
(21,798 posts)might just be due to limited technology of the time period.
No phones, computers, zoom conferences, etc. to know the outcomes without formally meeting together in person at each stage.
bucolic_frolic
(43,520 posts)Delegates were days away by horse or carriage. Modern communications makes it real time.
TeamProg
(6,363 posts)NOW !!
progressoid
(50,021 posts)Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)In particular the certification by the VP. Werent the Kraken Sedition Day legal memos laser focused on doing all things possible to stop Pence from doing anything, first and foremost?
Followed by a tortuous legal path to a coup?
So on the one hand the fascist defending lawyers argue in court that those charged with conspiracy to sedition and related felonies requiring intent to distrust an official proceeding cant be convicted cause certification of the electoral college vote is a mere formality, ministerial level in nature only. Insert gag here
.
On the other hand the Kraken legal memos and sedition day PowerPoint coup plan very clearly takes it all as a solemnofficial proceeding with many layers to peel back before democracy dies on tv in broad daylight.
Republicans and hypocrisy go very deep.
azureblue
(2,158 posts)Katyal argues: So as long as the intent was to disrupt the count, it would suffice to be criminal, which of course makes a lot of sense given the grave stakes here.
So is it too late to revisit that election, too?
Captain Zero
(6,868 posts)And here we are again.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,580 posts)even for a day. Every day after that might well be a day wrapped in lawlessness.
Maraya1969
(22,518 posts)motivation? There were no speakers at the capitol, no refreshments or bands. Why did he tell them to go to the capitol?
That is a question I would like to see him answer if he is brought in to testify.
maxsolomon
(33,473 posts)Therefore not clearly illegal. It's IMPLIED. It's part of the reason the DOJ is sitting on their thumbs - Conspiracy is nearly impossible to prove unless it is explicit.
He would never speak to his motive under oath; he'd just lie: "I meant go down there and protest loudly and peacefully".
wnylib
(21,798 posts)However, there is documentation of intent now, from internal plans and a blueprint for changing the outcome of the vote. Even without the violence at the Capitol, thst conspiracy was illegal.
maxsolomon
(33,473 posts)from your mouth to God's ears.
multigraincracker
(32,758 posts)of the 14th Amendment? Giving one group an advantage over another in voting, such as rural voters vs urban and gerrymandering, not following the rules for equal protection rules.
FakeNoose
(32,917 posts)Sogo
(5,021 posts)who will enforce the law in regards to Trump and his inner circle?
Still waiting....
Hekate
(91,047 posts)tblue37
(65,552 posts)uponit7771
(90,371 posts)... be violence or the enabling of it.
Yeah,
panfluteman
(2,075 posts)And put Trump's sorry fat white ass in jail, where it belongs. Pronto! Enough already! How much more do we need to know? How much more evidence do we need? Trump's as guilty as hell!
Hassler
(3,402 posts)monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)thesquanderer
(12,001 posts)The story of Trump. He does tons of crap in plain sight. As if to say doing it publicly is evidence that it is proper.
Roc2020
(1,619 posts)Trump's neck felt like it shot up some serious degrees from a week ago
TomSlick
(11,150 posts)The judge writes a brilliant exposition of statutory interpretation in eviscerating the attempt to dismiss the indictments. It's probably dry and confusing to nonlawyers but the decision is amazing.
If, as the judge has ruled, the insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol committed the crime of obstructing an official proceeding, so did the people who organized and financed the attack. TFG and his former minions should be concerned.
aggiesal
(8,963 posts)Response to tblue37 (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.