Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

tblue37

(65,552 posts)
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 11:31 AM Dec 2021

A federal court has ruled that obstructing the electoral vote count is illegal. Trump should panic.

A federal court has ruled that obstructing the electoral vote count is illegal. Trump should panic.

snip

“This December 10 Friedrich opinion does indeed seem important to me,” constitutional legal scholar Laurence Tribe tells me. Whether it is an obstruction charge — or a charge of sedition or conspiracy to commit sedition (under either sections 2383 or 2384 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code) — Tribe observes that the principal obstacle to prosecution has been “the argument that the electoral count certification in the Joint Session of Congress is too ministerial to count as an official proceeding.” However, Tribe concludes, “This federal court opinion undercuts that line of argument.”

Former acting solicitor general Neal Katyal has been voicing this exact argument for some time. “Judge Friedrich’s decision means the prosecutors don’t have to show someone intended violence for it to be a crime,” he explains. “So long as the intent was to influence and disrupt the congressional function of counting the votes, that is sufficient — so long as it was done ‘corruptly.’ ” Katyal notes that the judge cited “a prior ruling by a conservative superstar jurist, Judge Laurence Silberman, [who] defined ‘corruptly’ to be to be doing something by unlawful means.”

Katyal argues: “So as long as the intent was to disrupt the count, it would suffice to be criminal, which of course makes a lot of sense given the grave stakes here.” What is true of these two defendants, he adds, “goes for others, including anyone in the White House who aided the disruption.” He concludes that “Judge Friedrich’s decision, at bottom, is a how-to manual, demonstrating how government officials, including President Trump, can be criminally indicted."Text

Too many people have let themselves be sidetracked into looking for a connection between Trump and the violence of Jan. 6. But that evidence is unnecessary because the crime here is the end result — the intended disruption of the House electoral vote-counting. And from every document, news report or tell-all book we have seen, that is precisely what Trump tried to do. Simply because he told the world about his corrupt intent does not make it any less illegal.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/14/federal-court-has-ruled-that-obstructing-electoral-vote-count-is-illegal-trump-should-panic/
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
A federal court has ruled that obstructing the electoral vote count is illegal. Trump should panic. (Original Post) tblue37 Dec 2021 OP
K & R...worth keeping an eye on...nt Wounded Bear Dec 2021 #1
I'm surprised there was any question about it. Scrivener7 Dec 2021 #2
I thought it was already a crime, gab13by13 Dec 2021 #27
Almost feels like «Fitzmas» again. no_hypocrisy Dec 2021 #3
Yes, I've also been getting that vibe. intheflow Dec 2021 #42
No shit, Sherlock! Karadeniz Dec 2021 #4
There are LOTS of legal challenges to the state voter suppression laws where they think they PortTack Dec 2021 #5
Not so sure that those laws can be wnylib Dec 2021 #34
His attorneys apparently argued that certifying the vote was not... CaptainTruth Dec 2021 #6
Hell, it is the Pig's very nature to act corruptly. Thomas Hurt Dec 2021 #7
I really like THESE 3 Words, REPEAT: 'TRUMP SHOULD PANIC" ...K & R Stuart G Dec 2021 #8
THIS malaise Dec 2021 #13
He already shits his pants on a daily basis. louis-t Dec 2021 #28
Why would he need to panic? quakerboy Dec 2021 #9
Thank you. Banning drop boxes childfreebychoice Dec 2021 #14
I wonder if the Founding Fathers were so astute bucolic_frolic Dec 2021 #10
I think the complex processes wnylib Dec 2021 #35
You're probably right. Power was geographically dispersed at that time bucolic_frolic Dec 2021 #37
LOCK THEM ALL UP !! TeamProg Dec 2021 #11
Nothing will happen to T***p progressoid Dec 2021 #12
Ofc the certification is official proceeding as legally defined. Alexander Of Assyria Dec 2021 #15
Bush vs Gore in FL azureblue Dec 2021 #16
Obstruction of Justice. What got Nixon. Captain Zero Dec 2021 #17
100 riots wouldn't rise (or sink) to the level of subverting democracy, BobTheSubgenius Dec 2021 #18
When he told all those people to "march down to the Capital" what was his Maraya1969 Dec 2021 #19
Trump speaks like a Mob Boss. The direction is never explicit. maxsolomon Dec 2021 #26
Very true about mob speak. wnylib Dec 2021 #36
Fun dayn moyl zu Got's oyem, wnylib. maxsolomon Dec 2021 #39
Why isn't our current voting system not a violation multigraincracker Dec 2021 #20
Yes!!! FakeNoose Dec 2021 #21
Question remains, Sogo Dec 2021 #22
KnRnThanks. I'm always curious: who's the author behind the paywall? Hekate Dec 2021 #23
Jennifer Rubin. tblue37 Dec 2021 #25
K&R, AND ... AND there doesn't have to be a sucess just an ATTEMPT is illegal and doesn't have to uponit7771 Dec 2021 #24
LOCK HIM UP! panfluteman Dec 2021 #29
Frog march the orange combover now. Hassler Dec 2021 #30
well shit , enjoying watching mara-lard ass sweat & crap his pant's everyday !! monkeyman1 Dec 2021 #43
re: "Simply because he told the world about his corrupt intent does not make it any less illegal." thesquanderer Dec 2021 #31
Yeah. Suddenly the heat on the back of Roc2020 Dec 2021 #32
It may be something only a lawyer would love but this is a strong opinion. TomSlick Dec 2021 #33
Pendejo45 never gets tired of winning ... wait, I mean losing. Sorry! n/t aggiesal Dec 2021 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Dec 2021 #40
Yet misdemeanors for most insurrectionists n/t kirby Dec 2021 #41

PortTack

(32,823 posts)
5. There are LOTS of legal challenges to the state voter suppression laws where they think they
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:09 PM
Dec 2021

Will supplant legally appointed electors, count only the votes they want and other such nonsense. The electoral vote count act and other constitutional protections will knock these laws flat. It won’t be a slam dunk, but much of those laws will fail.

wnylib

(21,798 posts)
34. Not so sure that those laws can be
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 09:28 PM
Dec 2021

easily tossed out. The Constitution gives the states the right to establish their own election laws. So long as those laws don't violate civil rights, they are allowed.

The Constitution also gives states the right to choose their electors. It does not have to be by popular vote. In fact, it was distrust of the popular vote that caused the Constitution's authors to establish the electoral college and allow states to appoint electors.

I hope there is a way around those suppression laws, but I don't see one other than abolishing the EC with an amendment which is almost impossible to do.

CaptainTruth

(6,619 posts)
6. His attorneys apparently argued that certifying the vote was not...
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:09 PM
Dec 2021

...an official government proceeding.

Yea, throw it at the wall & see if it sticks.

I was glad to see the judge allow the charge a couple days ago because a lot of other insurrectionists face the same charge & this should set a precedent that applies to all those other cases so this point doesn't have to be debated in every case. It should speed things up a bit.

quakerboy

(13,925 posts)
9. Why would he need to panic?
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:17 PM
Dec 2021

They are already setting up the mechanisms to take control over the next few elections regardless of what voters do, and several Democratic senators are voting to make sure the way is clear for them to do so.

What do they have to fear? a few lawsuits that will get drug out as long as need be?

childfreebychoice

(476 posts)
14. Thank you. Banning drop boxes
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:27 PM
Dec 2021

Replacing non t* supporting rethugs/Dem election officials with t* loyalists, endowed with the ability to overturn election results they don't like. Add to that, SCOTUS, gerrymandering, manchin, sinema, and the one unnamed Dem, Biden mentioned, times one, who is against getting rid of filibuster... one party rule, for yrs, on the horizon. Everyday so glad we made decidion to become expats, come next yr will become citizens of Panama

bucolic_frolic

(43,520 posts)
10. I wonder if the Founding Fathers were so astute
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:19 PM
Dec 2021

having studied philosophy, human nature, history, ancient Rome, Cromwell, the Glorious Revolution of 1688 - that one of the purposes of all the ceremony, tradition, pagentry of the confirmation of the Electoral College Vote was to provide multiple opportunities for seditionists to be laid bare so that coups could fail. Closely examined, the entire process really is a thread-the-needle ritual that seems like no big deal when it runs smoothly, but try to mess with it and it doesn't cooperate very much.

wnylib

(21,798 posts)
35. I think the complex processes
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 09:38 PM
Dec 2021

might just be due to limited technology of the time period.

No phones, computers, zoom conferences, etc. to know the outcomes without formally meeting together in person at each stage.

bucolic_frolic

(43,520 posts)
37. You're probably right. Power was geographically dispersed at that time
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 10:04 PM
Dec 2021

Delegates were days away by horse or carriage. Modern communications makes it real time.

 

Alexander Of Assyria

(7,839 posts)
15. Ofc the certification is official proceeding as legally defined.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:28 PM
Dec 2021

In particular the certification by the VP. Weren’t the Kraken Sedition Day legal memos laser focused on doing all things possible to stop Pence from doing anything, first and foremost?
Followed by a tortuous legal path to a coup?

So on the one hand the fascist defending lawyers argue in court that those charged with conspiracy to sedition and related felonies requiring intent to distrust an official proceeding can’t be convicted cause certification of the electoral college vote is a mere formality, ministerial level in nature only. Insert gag here….

On the other hand the Kraken legal memos and sedition day PowerPoint coup plan very clearly takes it all as a solemnofficial proceeding with many layers to peel back before democracy dies on tv in broad daylight.

Republicans and hypocrisy go very deep.

azureblue

(2,158 posts)
16. Bush vs Gore in FL
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:44 PM
Dec 2021

Katyal argues: “So as long as the intent was to disrupt the count, it would suffice to be criminal, which of course makes a lot of sense given the grave stakes here.”

So is it too late to revisit that election, too?

BobTheSubgenius

(11,580 posts)
18. 100 riots wouldn't rise (or sink) to the level of subverting democracy,
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:47 PM
Dec 2021

even for a day. Every day after that might well be a day wrapped in lawlessness.

Maraya1969

(22,518 posts)
19. When he told all those people to "march down to the Capital" what was his
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 12:51 PM
Dec 2021

motivation? There were no speakers at the capitol, no refreshments or bands. Why did he tell them to go to the capitol?

That is a question I would like to see him answer if he is brought in to testify.

maxsolomon

(33,473 posts)
26. Trump speaks like a Mob Boss. The direction is never explicit.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 02:12 PM
Dec 2021

Therefore not clearly illegal. It's IMPLIED. It's part of the reason the DOJ is sitting on their thumbs - Conspiracy is nearly impossible to prove unless it is explicit.

He would never speak to his motive under oath; he'd just lie: "I meant go down there and protest loudly and peacefully".

wnylib

(21,798 posts)
36. Very true about mob speak.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 09:45 PM
Dec 2021

However, there is documentation of intent now, from internal plans and a blueprint for changing the outcome of the vote. Even without the violence at the Capitol, thst conspiracy was illegal.

multigraincracker

(32,758 posts)
20. Why isn't our current voting system not a violation
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 01:00 PM
Dec 2021

of the 14th Amendment? Giving one group an advantage over another in voting, such as rural voters vs urban and gerrymandering, not following the rules for equal protection rules.

FakeNoose

(32,917 posts)
21. Yes!!!
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 01:04 PM
Dec 2021
Too many people have let themselves be sidetracked into looking for a connection between Trump and the violence of Jan. 6. But that evidence is unnecessary because the crime here is the end result — the intended disruption of the House electoral vote-counting. And from every document, news report or tell-all book we have seen, that is precisely what Trump tried to do. Simply because he told the world about his corrupt intent does not make it any less illegal.


Sogo

(5,021 posts)
22. Question remains,
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 01:22 PM
Dec 2021

who will enforce the law in regards to Trump and his inner circle?

Still waiting....

uponit7771

(90,371 posts)
24. K&R, AND ... AND there doesn't have to be a sucess just an ATTEMPT is illegal and doesn't have to
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 01:34 PM
Dec 2021

... be violence or the enabling of it.

Yeah,

panfluteman

(2,075 posts)
29. LOCK HIM UP!
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 02:34 PM
Dec 2021

And put Trump's sorry fat white ass in jail, where it belongs. Pronto! Enough already! How much more do we need to know? How much more evidence do we need? Trump's as guilty as hell!

thesquanderer

(12,001 posts)
31. re: "Simply because he told the world about his corrupt intent does not make it any less illegal."
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 04:55 PM
Dec 2021

The story of Trump. He does tons of crap in plain sight. As if to say doing it publicly is evidence that it is proper.

Roc2020

(1,619 posts)
32. Yeah. Suddenly the heat on the back of
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 07:20 PM
Dec 2021

Trump's neck felt like it shot up some serious degrees from a week ago

TomSlick

(11,150 posts)
33. It may be something only a lawyer would love but this is a strong opinion.
Tue Dec 14, 2021, 08:33 PM
Dec 2021

The judge writes a brilliant exposition of statutory interpretation in eviscerating the attempt to dismiss the indictments. It's probably dry and confusing to nonlawyers but the decision is amazing.

If, as the judge has ruled, the insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol committed the crime of obstructing an official proceeding, so did the people who organized and financed the attack. TFG and his former minions should be concerned.

Response to tblue37 (Original post)

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»A federal court has ruled...