General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI sincerely hope that I will be eating a large portion of crow about this post in the coming months.
It may be that AG Garland's DOJ is very quietly and professionally investigating Trump's knowledge of and participation in the January 6th attempted coup. If that is the case, I will happily dine on that crow.
But, if there is no such investigation in progress as I type this, I believe it is time for the AG to opt to "spend more time with his family". There are any number of experienced Democrats who could "hit the ground running" if named to replace him.
The usual suspects can now respond with their "you don't understand how things work" posts. Maybe I do understand and simply find it unacceptable IF in fact NOTHING has been done to pursue the worst criminal traitor in our history.
gab13by13
(21,478 posts)I have listened to former DOJ people say on the TV that something would have leaked by now. I mean it has been 11 months.
The select committee can only dig up information, the DOJ has more resources to do investigations and it can charge people with crimes. Our hope to save our democracy rests with DOJ, and passing S1.
ForgedCrank
(1,786 posts)even if "evidence" that can stand the scrutiny of law and courts cannot be produced, we will at least see the information publicly since this is entire thing exists inside the realm of politics (so to speak).
In other words, even if they can't outright convict the former ass, at least the information will become publicly available for all to see.
May not be what we all hope for, but it's at least something.
NonPC
(308 posts)Don't be so sure that every high profile case gets leaked. There are many AUSA (Assistant US Attorneys) and their staff and Federal Grand Juries that handle these cases and NOTHING gets leaked. The only thing you read or hear about is when the indictments are handed down. Trust me on this -- my wife is a retired one.
Beachnutt
(7,356 posts)we won't know until action taken is revealed and if no action its probably too late...
Bettie
(16,139 posts)there needs to be something done before TFG is running again, because when he makes that announcement, he becomes untouchable again...but, he seems to be already. It is disheartening to say the least.
Bayard
(22,199 posts)I think Garland was a sympathy placement for what McConnell did to him. He probably would have been a good Supreme.
Demsrule86
(68,761 posts)and what I have seen thus far won't lead to a conviction...and consider the Rittenhouse trial. It is very likely we will never be able to get a jury ...all 12 members... to convict Trump. And if he was found not guilty, it would be worse than anything IMHO. Knowing and proving are two different things...especially in conspiracy cases.
Beachnutt
(7,356 posts)Claustrum
(4,846 posts)I, personally, definitely think Trump is responsible for Jan. 6th. He incited those people to do what they did that day. But unless you can find evidence that Trump specifically said "Go to the capital and hang Mike Pence" or if he gave orders directly to stop any police reinforcements to go to the capitol, you don't have sufficient evidence to convict him in a court. And clearly, we have heard nothing even close to that.
We all knew what Chris Christie did with the bridgegate crap but he escaped justice because there isn't sufficient evidence for his conviction. Only the low level people got charged.
I just don't believe there will be the hard evidence needed to link him to Jan. 6th. It's more a public opinion battle.
Diraven
(542 posts)Michael Cohen got time for carrying out crimes Trump ordered, but there's no evidence but his word against Trump's
calimary
(81,560 posts)But don't forget, that schmuck has been at it for years, wriggling his way off the hot seat, an expert in "plausible deniability" and never actually stating, flat out, what he wants.
He insinuates.
He suggests.
He gives subtle hints.
He weasel-words it.
He plants ideas without actually spelling them out.
He says JUST ENOUGH that YOU will fill in the blanks and get what he was pushing.
He really could hold how-to classes on this - how to get away with all kinds of shit while making sure nothing sticks to you, or directly traces back to you in whatever form will hold you legally accountable.
llmart
(15,564 posts)At this point, all we can hope for is the Grim Reaper to pay him a visit. I'd actually prefer that and have them go after the kids instead.
electric_blue68
(14,986 posts)it may take a miracle, or extremely good sluetheing to find something, if there is a cold hard connection.
Sigh.
Claustrum
(4,846 posts)The evidence needs to be "without any reasonable doubt." It's unfortunate and let savvy and slimy people like Trump to escape justice. But it is also to avoid injustice.
You can say similarly to any democratic representatives who supported and told people to go on a black lives matter march, some of these turned violent and end up in burning cars and property. Just because they told people to be there and the event turned violent doesn't necessarily mean they incited or wanted those violence.
Of course, most of the democratic representatives emphasized for a peaceful protest while Trump never did such things and cheered the break-in. But the point stands that you need more than just telling people to go to a protest to be sufficient evidence to prove one's guilt in a insurrection in a court. And I have not seen anything even close to Trump telling people to break-in the capitol or that he prevented the police reinforcements. He surely was happy hearing about their actions and he didn't condemn such a thing even after many people urging him to do it. But it still isn't sufficient evidence in a court of law unfortunately.
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)It would be hard to find a jury here that would be easy on Trump.
Silent3
(15,424 posts)...and in the name of "not interfering" would say they didn't want to interfere until the 1/6 committee's work is done.
Then, and only then, would they use the results of the congressional investigation as the basis of launching their own.
After all, it's not like there's any urgently needed action here.
Comfortably_Numb
(3,843 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)anytime soon.
It does seem that someone is dragging their feet as far as January 6.
Varaddem
(432 posts)He must be untouchable. Its not supposed to be like that. He did it in front of the whole world.
Haggard Celine
(16,864 posts)I was very skeptical about all of it, too, until the indictment of Bannon for Contempt of Congress came down. It was done a lot more swiftly than I anticipated and it looks like they're not going to let it be dragged out. Now they have subpoenas for Alex Jones and Roger Stone. Of course, they'll probably show up, but will plead the 5th.
I've seen Rep. Schiff, who I respect a great deal, interviewed about all of this and he has said that a lot of people have come forward to talk to the committee and have shared important information. People are spilling their guts and Trump and his allies are steadily stirring up rebellion.
I believe the committee has shared what they have with the DOJ, and there is enough testimony to indict and convict Trump for sedition. I have no evidence of this, but think it's possible that a grand jury has been convened for his indictment. Trump's actions lately, and the actions of his cohorts, have seemed more desperate to me. If the DOJ has convened a grand jury to indict Trump, they've probably informed Trump of this fact, which would be the source of all of the talk from his surrogates.
If they're going to do anything about Trump's actions on Jan. 6, they need to do it now. Any later and it will be too close to the elections. It would be close enough as it is. It took a long time to happen because everything takes a long time in Washington. Committees have to be convened, witnesses have to be heard, evidence has to be assembled, juries have to be convened.
It would have been a lot better if Pence had locked Trump up on Jan. 6. The process would have probably been expedited while Trump's support was at a low ebb. But it wasn't done that way. He was allowed to go home and remain free and plot a comeback. So this is where we are. I have to think they're doing something because something has to be done. The country won't survive it if they don't.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)allowed to turn himself in after the weekend; allowed to walk free (straight to a microphone where he continued his assault on America).
No DETERRENT EFFECT.
No GAG ORDER.
Haggard Celine
(16,864 posts)make all of the documents in the case public. The judge replied that there are less than 20 pages. A commentator said that he was probably trying to embarrass someone from the other side with some information. He's going to pull out everything he can to fight this, just as Trump will. I don't know what the DOJ's strategy is, but as long as he ends up talking or going to jail, I don't care. We'll see how they treat him when it's all over. If he walks away free and without testifying, we'll know any prosecution of Trump is unlikely.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)He's not stupid.
Evil, but not stupid.
NEOBuckeye
(2,781 posts)Its our handling of stupid thats fallen off the cliff.
Another time and place, and that bastard would be rotting in a prison cell.
Or hanging from the gallows for treason.
Hes not that bright. Weve just gotten complacent about how to deal with types like him.
dutch777
(3,050 posts)I am sure that is not something they advertise and other than maybe certain legislative committees, may be simply unknowable. I doubt they have resources to cover all the targets we find of value/interest plus the routine of more routine serious crimes that rise to the federal level. And the ones that look "too political" probably have a higher bar than average to get resources. Admittedly something that looks a lot like seeking to abridge the intent and strictures of the Constitution should rise to the top pretty quickly, one would think. But then I don't breathe DC air.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)My hunch has always been that unstated executive policy has been to slow walk adjudication of the MAGA crimes while stabilizing the economy and Covid response with enormous infusion of cash.
That is a high wire act, with no net below.
At risk is the republic itself. We don't yet know if it will survive. All this year, the traitors have been free to continue their treason and do their damage. Free as a bird, they simply refuse to cooperate with any inquiries. Free as a bird, they build on their Jan. 6 dress rehearsal. There's no evidence the law is coming for them, so they are free to plot and build.
Too many times over the last several decades, the strategy of "Look forward, not back" has come to bite us. So few Republicans have been made to feel pain for their crimes, in the one-sided effort to go along to get along.
Meanwhile, the American people (if not the people of the world) carry this burden of fear and stress every fricking day. Enemies of democracy are beating us down. It's constant. Intolerable, for many.
And yet there's no relief. Not even a pig of a traitor like Bannon is treated with what he deserves. Allowed to check in after the weekend! Allowed to walk free! There's no evident understanding of the value of DETERRENCE in seeking compliance from accused, when subpoenas are ignored and cooperation is nil. They are thumbing their nose at the law and we people.
The stress placed on the American people seems cruel. Can't do two things at the same time? Begin to adjudicate these crimes of sedition AND fix the economy? Can't do that at the same time?
Someone is gambling with the very existence of American democracy. And time is running out before the opportunity to save it is gone. Gone. The bad actors are not holding back while justice is withheld or delayed. They are more determined than ever and likely jubilant at this hesitancy to hold them accountable.
If we didn't KNOW, from recent history, that "Look forward, not back" is a strategy that enables the destruction of republic, we might be inclined to nod along and hope for the best.
But we DO KNOW that "Look forward, not back" is disastrous when dealing with a murderous, treasonous adversary. We DO KNOW THAT.
I'm still hopeful, but not optimistic. The proper arrest of just one high-profile participant, treated as a seditionist and not as a gentleman with a minor brush with the law, would bring more likely compliance from the others. An early-morning no-knock raid, televised with the perp walk, would start things on the right path. Is that so hard?
What are we teaching young people about justice and the law? Is no man above the law? Do we "do things right here"? Jury's out, on that, until justice is applied.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)erronis
(15,426 posts)They (young people) are where the hopes of this country, and democracy around the world, rest.
panader0
(25,816 posts)I'm as eager for action on 1/6 as anyone here, and it's frustrating to wait so long.
I remember though, that the Watergate burglary was on 9/3/71, and the indictment of
the "plumbers" wasn't until 3/4/74. That's 2 and a half years.
My main concern is that some indictments for 1/6 come before the midterms. I think Nancy
Pelosi knows this very well and will act accordingly. I hope so, crow doesn't really sound
appetizing.
blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)If anything happens I will enjoy the crow. I'm not holding my breath.
Sogo
(5,009 posts)It would be a different story, IMHO.....
Dan
(3,585 posts)America does not deserve to survive.
AverageOldGuy
(1,564 posts). . . . because:
Remember that DOJ policy -- or whatever it is -- that says DOJ will not do anything that could possibly influence an election within XX months of the election (unless the thing involves a Clinton and some emails)??? Remember that?
Well -- Nov 2022 is coming. The way DOJ works it would be early summer 2022 before they build a case against any Trumpster, then, the case must go before a grand jury . . . but by then it's Election Day 2022. Republicans will take back the House and the Jan 6 committee will disappear, to be replaced by a committee to impeach Biden and Harris.
I'm 77 and in good health. The USofA was good while it lasted. I'll live long enough to see the end of it.
Bev54
(10,087 posts)are doing nothing. I think somebody needs to get across to the Biden admin that perhaps that is one of the reasons his approval ratings are still low. People want the help and they want justice for the past 4 years of injustice. They want to see things are getting done on both sides, doing good and cleanup.
Response to Atticus (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
NJCher
(35,794 posts)New AG: Preet.
I listen to his podcast regularly and my admiration only grows. Not only does he have the experience, he is one of the most level-headed, common sense people I've ever heard.
He co-comments with Joyce Vance on his podcast. The two of them are so worth the time to listen.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,435 posts)and he does have good podcasts. I only get the free ones, and they're excellent.
But a while back, I mentioned that we already know he is able and willing to go after MF45, and someone pointed out to me that the fact that he already investigated things related to MF45 and was fired by him would probably cause him to recuse himself from anything related to tRump. Conflict of interest.
Response to FoxNewsSucks (Reply #43)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
George II
(67,782 posts)...I'm one of those "usual suspects" as you so divisively describe us.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Skittles
(153,258 posts)yes indeed
George II
(67,782 posts)FoxNewsSucks
(10,435 posts)"We Told You So" threads start.
I have my crow ready to eat also, and hope never to ever be able to make a told-you-so post.
But every day, there's something about a tRump, or tRump crony, flaunting the law, and nothing ever happens to them. It is impossible to continue to be patient.
And there's a lot of history (Fitzmas, Mueller Report, Look Forward Not Backward etc) of nothing ever happening.
Seems to me that people should be a lot more bothered by the apathy toward criminals that the public seems to have, than by those eager to see justice meted out.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)"divisively"
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)It's time to stop this continual attack. You show up every time to beat up on members whose opinion is just as valid as yours.
Enough.
George II
(67,782 posts)...for their opinions. So what do you do? Attack ME for MY opinion!
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)The schtick is tedious. Let the people speak about the matters facing the country.
George II
(67,782 posts)oldsoftie
(12,651 posts)One I dont share BTW, but jeeze its a simple criticism. So many people are so touchy. DU shouldnt be an echo chamber
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)But it is repeated over and over. The same people. World without end. Trying to stifle opinion of a certain kind.
oldsoftie
(12,651 posts)I imagine its a guy because others have messaged me "Oh, he's an asshole"!
NQAS
(10,749 posts)Ive been thinking this for awhile.
Ill look up crow recipes so that I can be ready. But I dont know
.
DENVERPOPS
(8,883 posts)The survival of Democracy and the U.S. doesn't need another milk toast Mueller type of investigation.
Mueller, being a life time staunch Republican, I think that Mueller felt if he did a thorough job of presenting the evidence it would take down the entire Republican Party and he couldn't bring himself to doing that.............
We are going for broke, and If Garland isn't up for the task, get someone else.........Period.
Your last line is exceptionally on target...............
TurboDem
(216 posts)I'll gladly gulp down the largest portion of crow, but I suspect I'm not going to have to.
AG Garland, in my opinion, is worthless!
He should resign or be terminated.
MineralMan
(146,345 posts)None? That's my bet. I suppose I am one of your "usual suspects," but that is because I understand that the DOJ traditionally does not discuss ongoing investigations in public. That was not the case during a previous administration, but nothing about that administration operated in a traditional way.
What evidence do I have that the DOJ IS investigating? Well, there are indictments and cases in courts. There is Bannon. There will, I am certain, be others that become breaking news when there is news to break.
As for "eating crow," nobody is going to ask you to do that. Your speculations about supposed inactivity on the DOJ's part is clearly just that - speculation. It has nothing to do with what is or is not going on in the DOJ. You have no idea, nor any information about that, so it's just random thinking on your part.
I don't have a lot more than that, except for charges and indictments that have already occurred. Those do indicate that there is stuff going on behind the DOJ's closed doors. They're closed to me, and they're closed to you. We are irrelevant in our thoughts on the matter, because we know next to nothing.
Time. That will answer all of our questions.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)usually well-considered.
I will note that I never said "DOJ is not investigating." I fear that it may not be, but I made it clear I do not know. That's why I said "IF".
Your response actually does not answer your own question: "What evidence do I have that the DOJ IS investigating?" I did not expect such evidence. No one should require "evidence" that DOJ is NOT investigating before they are allowed to express their doubts and fears.
George II
(67,782 posts)....no, you didn't say "DOJ is not investigating", but you did say "It may be that AG Garland's DOJ is very quietly and professionally investigating", "if that is the case" which basically says that you don't think they are and all but saying you don't think that's the case.
Pretty much says you don't think the DOJ is investigating.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)are pretty well-known. Unlike some who have responded in this thread, I think criticizing named DUers is---what's that word?---"unseemly".
2.) Your interpretation of my chosen words may support your criticism, but it does not accurately state my view.
Thank you for your civility.
Monohull
(52 posts)None of the big players will be charged.
Mark my words.
MineralMan
(146,345 posts)See, I don't recognize your screen name as a reliable source, due to lack of experience with your posts.
So, I'm afraid I'm not going to mark your words.
Monohull
(52 posts)snooping around my house about 6 weeks after I received an Anthrax letter. Even got him to admit he was in NC at the time. When he went on the Alex Jones show. I was the first caller.
NOw you know the real reason the Westgate Postal Facility tested positive for Anthrax.
Ottillie Lungren, Cathy Nguyen and I all responded to the same article on the MSNBC message board. (Remember the old days when they were called message boards?) That's where our addresses were obtained.
He was arrogant enough to wear his army jacket. Your army jacket has your last name printed on it. (Most likely why Barbara Hatch Rosenberg said he was cock sure he would get away with it. I have an email exchange with her at the time she was consulting with the FBI)
I gave his last name to agent Eric Davis at the Charlotte FBI in November of 2001. About 7 months before Hatfill's name was made public. Can you guess what the FBI did? If you guessed covered it up you're correct.
I have mountains of evidence. Including some of the Anthrax that was mailed to me. Still!
The DOJ refuses to give me anything from the Charlotte FBI office.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)marble falls
(57,422 posts)... or how well, how do you justify slamming him? What is the real source of your angst?
George II
(67,782 posts)marble falls
(57,422 posts)... if pigs fly. If only 45 had a brain. If.
gab13by13
(21,478 posts)To me the biggest threat to our democracy are Democratic leaders who don't realize that our democracy is hanging by a thread.
As far as several people on this thread asking Atticus to prove a negative, that is .. I won't say.
I have listened to former DOJ officials, to former prosecutors, to former judges, numerous people claim that if DOJ were doing a serious investigation into the attack on our democracy, it would have leaked by now. Not leaked by the investigators, not by DOJ, but leaked by people being investigated or by their attorneys. This idea that DOJ isn't doing enough isn't just coming from DU posters like me, it's coming from reputable people.
Dare I ask if there is any iota, any miniscule bit of evidence in these past 11 months that DOJ has opened an investigation into the ring leaders of the coup attempt? We actually have the coup blueprint in writing. Why hasn't Mr. Eastman been brought before a grand jury?
We have Trump's Chief of Staff use his government G-mail to try to get Georgia election officials to change the results of a certified election. In other words, he broke the law. Is there any evidence that Mr. Meadows has been hauled before a grand jury?
This argument about not knowing, about having patience is the most dangerous thing we can do.
I'm with you Atticus, I will eat crow with a side of possum.
George II
(67,782 posts)..."acting" that's not helpful.
There were countless OPs a few weeks ago that he wasn't acting with respect to Bannon. But Bannon was indicted only 22 days after Congress referred his case to the DOJ, and those 22 days included 3 weekends and a Federal holiday. Essentially it was 15 working days.
That is light speed in legal circles. And yet he was "dragging his feet".
Thankfully the hue and cry died down for a couple of weeks after that, but now it's starting up again.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)traitorsgalore
(1,396 posts)Project much?
erronis
(15,426 posts)Trueblue Texan
(2,451 posts)...participation and planning the Jan 6 insurrection will ever come fast enough. We have all waited so long for some, ANY, accountability from the former criminal administration, even this red hot minute is too slow. But I trust that Merrick Garland knows what he is doing, knows the tightness of the electoral calendar and is well-informed of the necessity to get some results ASAP. We were all sure Steve Bannon was going to escape justice because DOJ was running too slow for our anxieties. But then, we found out, there was actually some action going on behind the scenes. I think Garland is careful and gets his ducks in a row before revealing his vantage point.
jalan48
(13,907 posts)the states. I think he'll continue to pursue lesser officials and rioters involved and then move on.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,435 posts)but the same people here and elsewhere saying that also said that NY was just waiting for him to leave office, implying they had warrants and indictments ready to go the minute he stepped out of the WH.
Never happened.
jalan48
(13,907 posts)Monohull
(52 posts)I have personal experience with the FBI/DOJ.
This is what it looks like when they are running out the clock.
Nothing will happen.
And independent voters will not vote for Democrats in 22 and 24 b/c of it.
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)I've heard this bullshit my entire life. They are wrong, we can stomach the truth no matter what it is. JUST GIVE IT TO US! You can not protect this country without the TRUTH!
Scrivener7
(51,074 posts)join our party.
But we'd have seen SOMETHING if Garland was working on it.
I believe we are in Fitzmas season.
NBachers
(17,160 posts)Kablooie
(18,645 posts)Congress would know something and we would hear something. Schiff is saying he has heard nothing so Im sure Trump is not on the agenda. Garland probably considers it too political to get involved
I dont know why he doesnt see the threat to the future of the nation though. His inaction could well allow death of the country and start a new chaotic fascism that will, literally, rewrite the history of the world both future and past. Our descendants may never hear what happened and only know of the glory of the Trump, dictator dynasty.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)Is that what Garland wants on his epitaph?
He proved Benjamin Franklin prescient.
rownesheck
(2,343 posts)that orange fuckwad will die before we ever see any charges brought against him. As others have said, he's got a knack for weasling out of being held accountable. He's a pro at it. Unfortunately, being supposedly rich helps him immensely. I'm sure if he was Donald Trump the Walmart stocker, and he did what everyone knows he's done, his ass would be in prison already.
Every morning I wake up with the hope of hearing this news: Donald Trump found dead as a mother fucker. And no one cares why. We're all just glad he's dead. His body will be placed [name somewhere] for all the world to come piss on it before its thrown into a pit of hungry badgers.
BCLiberal
(7 posts)Even if Trump is somehow magically protected(by the mob), go after and prosecute those who did his wink-wink bidding.
As long as they continue to get away with it, there will be no shortage of them.
Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)myohmy2
(3,198 posts)...
traitorsgalore
(1,396 posts)CNN or MSNBC, I don't remember which.
Even if something does happen I fear no real accountability will happen.
lees1975
(3,908 posts)If you have a Democratic representative in the house, give them a call and ask them what is going on at the DOJ regarding Trump's role in the insurrection. The more calls, the more attention it gets. There'd better be one now. If not, that will prompt a visit to my representative's office to find out why.
KatK
(186 posts)Marcuse
(7,549 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Marcuse
(7,549 posts)Knowing that McConnell would block anyone, Obama picked a moderate who had garnered Republican support in the past. McConnell was again exposed to the world as a partisan hack posing as a statesman. Later he would further debase himself with regard to Amy Berman.
[link:https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/adam-chilton-merrick-garlands-ideology|]
https://www.vox.com/2016/3/16/11250100/merrick-garland-judicial-ideology
maxrandb
(15,378 posts)but if they, or their precious child were raped, or became pregnant because the High School QBs condom broke, have the means to travel to wherever they needed to for an abortion.
These are Retrumplican women. They either have the money to get an abortion at anytime, or they are they kind of moms that would happily send their preteen daughters to a Donnie Dipshit/Epstein hosted sleepover.
These are they women proudly wearing the "*rump can grab my pussy anytime" T-shirts
And those that aren't wearing those T-shirts? Well, they share the same sentiment, but are just embarrassed to advertise it in public.