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Kablooie

(18,515 posts)
Fri Nov 19, 2021, 10:38 PM Nov 2021

So killing in self defense is not about saving your own life anymore.

Feeling scared is plenty of justification to murder someone.

You used to have to prove that your life was unquestionably and imminently in jeopardy to escape punishment.
Now you just have to claim fear and you are free to go.

-- If you are white that is.
If you are black, self defense is not an option.
You kill someone, you are guilty of a crime. Period.

We are going to see a lot of Zimmerman/Rittenhouse murderers walking free I'll bet.
And watch how they become heros to the disgusting right wing Republicans.
I wish there was a mirror that would let them really see who they have become.

90 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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So killing in self defense is not about saving your own life anymore. (Original Post) Kablooie Nov 2021 OP
As the Judge stated after he interrupted the prosecutor, Bluethroughu Nov 2021 #1
and if you were afraid of the crowd itself Skittles Nov 2021 #3
These people don't just think they're innocent; they think they're heroes unblock Nov 2021 #2
Sage words my friend (nt) Hugh_Lebowski Nov 2021 #4
Reasonable fear of death or bodily injury Zeitghost Nov 2021 #5
Kyle R. is a person who claimed "fear" of possible harm to himself oasis Nov 2021 #9
So he asked for it? Zeitghost Nov 2021 #11
"assaulting him"?????. oasis Nov 2021 #12
After KR assaulted them by pointing his rifle at them? and WTF about rape man !? Rape victims don't uponit7771 Nov 2021 #31
If that happened Zeitghost Nov 2021 #36
KR didn't retreat shooting at unarmed people running away. That's not "retreating" by the law the uponit7771 Nov 2021 #37
Where are you getting your story from? Zeitghost Nov 2021 #38
Yes he did turn around **REPOINTED** his weapon at Rosenbaum while he was running away ! We uponit7771 Nov 2021 #42
Yes Zeitghost Nov 2021 #44
Yes, AFTER KR pointed his weapon at him!! OMFG, why are people leaving that fact out of the picture uponit7771 Nov 2021 #46
Because... Zeitghost Nov 2021 #54
He did NOT retreat, he turned around firing at those chasing him uponit7771 Nov 2021 #61
Yes Zeitghost Nov 2021 #66
"about to be caught" is where the prosecutor failed ... It's not where the uponit7771 Nov 2021 #69
Not true at all Zeitghost Nov 2021 #70
Firing a weapon while running away is not retreating, to say that's retreating would give uponit7771 Nov 2021 #71
You are under the impression Zeitghost Nov 2021 #74
Duty to retreat is established law in Wisconsin, KR had to after he brandished his weapon and was uponit7771 Nov 2021 #78
Your opinion Zeitghost Nov 2021 #79
Your Flawed Argument, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #40
It is entirely possible Zeitghost Nov 2021 #45
And At That Point, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #47
The position taken Zeitghost Nov 2021 #55
I Understand What the Law Is, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #56
And like those people Zeitghost Nov 2021 #59
Based On Comprehension Of The World Around Me, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #60
This is a political forum for Democrats and liberals, radius777 Nov 2021 #82
Last time I checked Zeitghost Nov 2021 #83
Liberals value justice, and radius777 Nov 2021 #88
Agree completely, the victims should've offed him in self defense, radius777 Nov 2021 #76
Reinoehl Zeitghost Nov 2021 #80
RW talking points. We don't know the facts (and full context) of the case radius777 Nov 2021 #81
A predictable end Zeitghost Nov 2021 #84
That's not what witnesses or the NYT report says. radius777 Nov 2021 #86
Well, according to the prosecution "everybody takes a beating sometimes." Steelrolled Nov 2021 #10
I love how some people like to imagine the 2nd and 3rd shootings happened first Tommy Carcetti Nov 2021 #13
RIGHT ! Even the M$M wants leave out the fact that KR pointed his weapon first and then the crowd uponit7771 Nov 2021 #32
What they see in the mirror keithbvadu2 Nov 2021 #6
It's been that way for a very long time. Going back to English Common Law I believe. Kaleva Nov 2021 #7
Traditionally, Elessar Zappa Nov 2021 #15
Yep. The old reasonable fear of imminent death Solomon Nov 2021 #17
Any skater will tell you their board is weapon when needed Devil Child Nov 2021 #20
Reasonable fear of death... Zeitghost Nov 2021 #27
Let's see. If i'm in a fight, would i want a skateboard Solomon Nov 2021 #29
I'm not sure what point you're making Zeitghost Nov 2021 #30
Zeitghost, you've done a pretty good job of explaining the situation. Lucid Dreamer Nov 2021 #73
The 'Castle Doctrine' morphed into 'Stand Your Ground' pfitz59 Nov 2021 #8
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2021 #14
Its not quite that simple Amishman Nov 2021 #16
That's an interesting take. Kablooie Nov 2021 #21
and it did, all three guilty as predicted Amishman Nov 2021 #25
Exactly. Dr. Strange Nov 2021 #26
Arbery didn't assault his killers first by pointing a weapon at them uponit7771 Nov 2021 #33
You are confusing brandishing with assault EX500rider Nov 2021 #67
Both crimes and threatening uponit7771 Nov 2021 #68
It all started with Clint Eastwood: "Go ahead. Make my day". Solomon Nov 2021 #18
The fundamentals of self defense law Zeitghost Nov 2021 #39
You mean Reagan the Governor. Cause Dirty Harry is from 1971. cinematicdiversions Nov 2021 #75
This message was self-deleted by its author Mad_Machine76 Nov 2021 #19
WI has no Stand Your Ground Law Zeitghost Nov 2021 #41
No, this is what the NRA has wrought on society. Initech Nov 2021 #22
Two of the three victims literally had their hand on the barrel of the rifle... WarGamer Nov 2021 #23
He pointed his weapon at them first, I love how so many people are leaving that out of narrative!!! uponit7771 Nov 2021 #34
Apparently the Jury, after reviewing the evidence... didn't find that to be accurate or relevant. WarGamer Nov 2021 #48
And It's A Shame That Blow Didn't Kill The Punk, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #43
The irony is... WarGamer Nov 2021 #49
I Agree, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #51
I like to think of my home state of California WarGamer Nov 2021 #52
Hear Hear, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2021 #53
You can open carry here in CA Zeitghost Nov 2021 #58
Letter of the Law?..IN THE CONSTITUTION...WHAT IS THAT?..WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Stuart G Nov 2021 #63
Most states do not require a duty to retreat hardluck Nov 2021 #72
It's been that way for quite awhile. English Common Law days. Kaleva Nov 2021 #24
This kid would have carried a pistol if he was truly just afraid fescuerescue Nov 2021 #28
But that'd be illegal... WarGamer Nov 2021 #50
Why? It was legal to carry a machine gun. fescuerescue Nov 2021 #77
No Zeitghost Nov 2021 #85
I thought that KH had an AR15 fescuerescue Nov 2021 #89
Correct. If you mean KR. yagotme Nov 2021 #90
K&R, Zimmerman and KR assaulted their victims FIRST !!! uponit7771 Nov 2021 #35
America's been breeding cowards for quite some time now. Iggo Nov 2021 #57
Maybe...but we also breed the ..."GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY"..do you know who Jonas Salk is? I do. Stuart G Nov 2021 #65
Always up to the jury....Always..!!!!!...Bill of Rights!! Entitled to .."Trial by Jury" Stuart G Nov 2021 #62
Does it say somewhere that the Constitution...Is the "Supreme Law of the Land" Stuart G Nov 2021 #64
gun humping cowards are always skeered Skittles Nov 2021 #87

Bluethroughu

(4,955 posts)
1. As the Judge stated after he interrupted the prosecutor,
Fri Nov 19, 2021, 10:47 PM
Nov 2021

The mere crowd itself could be threatening and could cause death...then a break...then rotten claiming he was threatened by the crowd coming toward him, but he acknowledged under oath he saw NO WEAPONS OF ANY KIND.

SO crowds are threatening and can scare people to shoot because they need to defend themselves.

The protestors were not on trial, a man who killed two unarmed people was.

unblock

(51,797 posts)
2. These people don't just think they're innocent; they think they're heroes
Fri Nov 19, 2021, 10:53 PM
Nov 2021

The whole gun fantasy of killing in self-defense is extraordinary dangerous.

I will a grant that in rare cases a gun might aid in self-defense. I will grant that in rare cases it might justify killing someone.

But those scenarios are rare and unfortunate and tragic. But popular gun mythology celebrates that situation. There's a lot of drama in it so Hollywood loves it as does the media.

And people being people, if it's such a compelling moment, some people will seek it out. So much of the drama and moral tension comes from the need for self-defense coming to you, not you to it.

But people being people....

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
5. Reasonable fear of death or bodily injury
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 01:50 AM
Nov 2021

It's been the standard for quite some time.

Anybody here want to let someone attack them with a skateboard and claim you're not in fear of being seriously injured? Anyone?

oasis

(49,045 posts)
9. Kyle R. is a person who claimed "fear" of possible harm to himself
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 05:09 AM
Nov 2021

yet traveled across state lines with the intention of putting his sorry ass into the middle of a shitstorm.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
11. So he asked for it?
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 10:01 AM
Nov 2021

That makes assaulting him legal? That negates his right to self defense? The law disagrees.

Your flawed argument is no different than telling a rape victim they should have stayed home and not went to that club with such a short skirt.

oasis

(49,045 posts)
12. "assaulting him"?????.
Sun Nov 21, 2021, 03:34 PM
Nov 2021

Are you trying to sell us that Kyle R. is the victim and not the goddam provocateur and murderious shooter?

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
31. After KR assaulted them by pointing his rifle at them? and WTF about rape man !? Rape victims don't
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:07 PM
Nov 2021

... go around assaulting their rapist first ?!

That's a fucked up analogy

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
36. If that happened
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:14 PM
Nov 2021

It would still not negate the self defense claim after KR began to retreat, which is clearly shown on video.


The analogy, in case it was not clear, is that putting yourself into a situation in which you may be assaulted does not mean you are culpable for your own assault. It's victim blaming.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
37. KR didn't retreat shooting at unarmed people running away. That's not "retreating" by the law the
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:17 PM
Nov 2021

... DAs REALLY screwed up in that trial leaving that point out

like in TM trial the DA's didn't call Zimmerman the aggressor.

ZMan didn't "retreat" from his threat either

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
38. Where are you getting your story from?
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:19 PM
Nov 2021

KR did not fire on people running away. All three men were advancing on him when shot. There is video, have you seen it?

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
42. Yes he did turn around **REPOINTED** his weapon at Rosenbaum while he was running away ! We
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:24 PM
Nov 2021

... watched the same video, I know we did ...

Rosenbaum was able to get near his barrel cause KR turned around and pointed it at him then fired the damn thing while running away.

If KR was NOT running away then AFTER KR pointed his weapon at RB then he wasn't retreating was he?!

Watch the video from the beginning ... NOT ... just Rosenbaum chasing KR which is what FAUX mostly shows.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
44. Yes
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:26 PM
Nov 2021

He turned and fired while fleeing from a man who threatened to kill him. That's legal self defense.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
46. Yes, AFTER KR pointed his weapon at him!! OMFG, why are people leaving that fact out of the picture
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:34 PM
Nov 2021

... that KR pointed his weapon first !!

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
54. Because...
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 06:00 PM
Nov 2021

If it happened, it didn't matter according to Wisconsin law as soon as KR retreated. At the moment he retreated and Rosenbaum gave chase he would have regained the right to claim self defense.

You might disagree with the law, but it's still the law that must be followed to get a conviction.



Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
66. Yes
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 11:41 PM
Nov 2021

After he retreated and was about to be caught, he turned and defended himself, legally. This is all on video tape.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
69. "about to be caught" is where the prosecutor failed ... It's not where the
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 12:08 AM
Nov 2021

... law says KR could use LETHAL FORCE after starting the altercation by brandishing his weapon.

KR would have to be clearly in danger of dying is what WI law says and "about to be caught" is not clearly about to die

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
70. Not true at all
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 12:13 AM
Nov 2021

I think you should take another look at WI law. He needed to be in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury. Even if he had brandished the weapon thus starting the altercation, WI law clearly gives him the right to self defense as soon as he stops and retreats. The moment he retreats and Rosenbaum advances on him (after threatening to kill him), Rosenbaum becomes the aggressor and Rittenhouse regains his right to defend himself with force. Despite what the prosecutor said, Rittenhouse was under no legal obligation to take his beating.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
71. Firing a weapon while running away is not retreating, to say that's retreating would give
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 12:23 AM
Nov 2021

... every active shooter in Wisconsin the legal way out even if they're not chased.

If Rosenberg caught up with him and grabbed him then I think one could argue a failed retreat, KR is literally using the Zimmerman defense of I was scared for my life while being armed with a firearm in the other person with their fist

Except KR head was never slammed through the ground as Zimmerman claims, KR's defense is weaker than Zimmerman's in this case even if he was caught.

but to turn around and start firing into a crowd of people that is not armed because KR thought he was "about to get caught" is not retreating.

Not even close, I think that's where the prosecutor failed miserably and the judge was a dumbass

Now one in Wisconsin can brandish a weapon run away turn around and start shooting at people thinking they were about to get caught and that would be a viable defense for the active shooter

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
74. You are under the impression
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 01:20 AM
Nov 2021

That he had to continue retreating. That is simply not true under WI law. He was under no legal obligation to allow Rosenbaum to strike or grab him before using force to protect himself.

If you are fleeing someone chasing you, who has threatened to kill you, you do not have to wait to be assaulted or injured, you must only be in reasonable fear of harm. This is the law in every state in the US.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
78. Duty to retreat is established law in Wisconsin, KR had to after he brandished his weapon and was
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 07:56 AM
Nov 2021

... still in the process of retreating when he brandished his weapon again.

There's no DTR cases where the defendant can say they reengaged to defend themselves cause they were "about to get caught."

They would've had to been caught first !!!

All the DA had to do is look at what cases that judge had decided on duty to retreat before KRs case... They didn't, they weren't into this cause.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
79. Your opinion
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 11:02 AM
Nov 2021

Is not based in law or the facts of the case. Again, you are under no legal obligation in any state in the US to allow the person chasing you to grab, strike, or assault you in any way before using self defense. The legal threshold is a reasonable fear of death or injury, full stop. Even in states that require retreat if possible allow for this. You're simply, demonstrably, wrong.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
40. Your Flawed Argument, Sir
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:23 PM
Nov 2021

Is that any onlooker would have seen a punk who gunned one man down fleeing his crime, and my hat is off to a man who, with no more than a skateboard to hand, attempts to apprehend a fleeing felon who brandishes a firearm. That is a sense of civic duty, and a degree of personal courage, I hope I could display in such a circumstance.

The belief the punk was a murderous felon was quite reasonable for any person in the crowd who heard the shots and saw a body on the ground.

It may well be that the relevant law in that state is so poorly constructed that it required a jury to acquit, but that does alter the fact, which is that a punk with dreams of killing a man journeyed to a place he hoped would provide him some excuse, and found what he was looking for.

The verdict was a hideous injustice, for all that it may be a lawful one.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
45. It is entirely possible
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:30 PM
Nov 2021

That Mr. Huber reasonably believed KR had committed a crime and was a danger to himself or others when he assaulted him with a skateboard. Even if that belief was based on false information. Notice that the man seen on tape kicking KR in the head at the same time Huber was swinging his skateboard has not been charged with assault.

That does not mean that Rittenhouse did not also have a reasonable fear for his safety when Huber attacked him.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
47. And At That Point, Sir
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:35 PM
Nov 2021

The thing dissolves into a mist, in which the position taken depends on whether one approves of protests against police excesses or approves of punks and thugs who arrogate to themselves the right to enforce the law. The punk had no reason to be there, and any threat he faced he sought out and contrived.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
55. The position taken
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 06:09 PM
Nov 2021

Should depend on the law and the evidence. The reason Kyle was down there does not legally matter. As soon as Rosenbaum threatened him and gave chase he had a legal right to self defense.

I personally think he's a moron who put himself in a bad situation. But so did the men he shot, especially Rosenbaum who wasn't even there for political/social reasons and was simply a violent criminal who stumbled upon a chance to get violent. The entire night was a series of bad choices by all involved. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is what the law on the books in the state of Wisconsin says.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
56. I Understand What the Law Is, Sir
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 06:29 PM
Nov 2021

And this instance is one where the law is an ass.

He did not need to shoot, he shot because it was his fantasy come true. It's a damned shame Mr. Huber didn't manage to brain him, and that Mr. Grosskreutz didn't pull the trigger the moment he had his piece out.

And we both know that in most instances, persons adopting the view the punk ought to walk do so because they are in agreement with gunning down black and leftist protesters, or so fanatic about their possession of firearms, and their liberty to brandish them, that they are blind to any consequences of their fetish.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
59. And like those people
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:04 PM
Nov 2021

Your opinion is based in hatred of the political "other" and not the law and facts. Which is sad.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
60. Based On Comprehension Of The World Around Me, Sir
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:09 PM
Nov 2021

I recommend it. Sometimes uncomfortable, but always bracing.

radius777

(3,616 posts)
82. This is a political forum for Democrats and liberals,
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 08:51 PM
Nov 2021

not a legal/law website.

Values and opinions are not informed by a literal reading of the law. The law once held that black people and women were property. Such a view (even when it was supported by law) was wrong then and wrong now. Rittenhouse is a terrorist despite what (one interpretation) of the law found. And judges and juries have often nullified the laws, and if required could've done so here - but were clearly on the racist cry baby's side from the beginning.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
83. Last time I checked
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 09:01 PM
Nov 2021

Liberals valued the rule of law and did not support convictions not based in the law.

Jury nullification means acquitting when the law says convict. It NEVER means convicting when the law says acquit, ever. To do so is a miscarriage of justice.

radius777

(3,616 posts)
88. Liberals value justice, and
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 09:48 PM
Nov 2021

the law throughout American history often was/is unjust.

Judges and juries have often simply done whatever they wanted, and could've done so here, which would've been to deliver actual justice. And it would've not really been nullification but simply a more just interpretation.

The authorities and the judge from the beginning showed favoritism and led the jury down that path.

radius777

(3,616 posts)
76. Agree completely, the victims should've offed him in self defense,
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 03:48 AM
Nov 2021

however I doubt the judge/jury would've viewed them favorably, being perceived (whether they were or not is inconsequential) as supporters of BLM.

Agree about Shittenhouse's thought process. He went down there to 'do battle with the left/antifa/BLM' and was an aggressor in the entire situation. The police/authorities were on his side from the beginning, as they are generally on the side of RW militia types, which Rittenhouse clearly is.

Recall that there was a similar situation in Portland, involving antifa activist Michael Reinoehl - who claimed he shot a far-right protester in self defense. Reinoehl then went on the run and was later gunned down in cold blood (IMO, based on what I've seen) by US Marshalls, who never gave him a chance to surrender and have due process. Law Enforcement in this country is fundamentally right wing and racist, and until we reform them, as well as the entire criminal justice system, there really will be no justice in America, as the forces of oppression will always resist reform.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
80. Reinoehl
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 11:06 AM
Nov 2021

Is on camera lying in wait for his victim. It was cold blooded murder. He claimed his victim tried to stab someone, despite not having a knife on him. The two cases have nothing in common. Try again...

radius777

(3,616 posts)
81. RW talking points. We don't know the facts (and full context) of the case
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 08:30 PM
Nov 2021

because Reineohl never got due process and was executed by US Marshalls (which Trump called 'retribution') as witnesses attest and as well as investigations by NYT/WaPo also found.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
84. A predictable end
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 09:05 PM
Nov 2021

For a violent murderer who choose to attempt and shoot it out with the police trying to apprehend him.

radius777

(3,616 posts)
86. That's not what witnesses or the NYT report says.
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 09:36 PM
Nov 2021

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl
A review by the New York Times found that the local investigators discounted key pieces of evidence that contradicted the notion that Reinoehl fired his weapon; for example, Reinoehl had a full magazine in the gun found on him.[14] Officer reports, released after the initial summary of the investigation, also reveal that none of the officers describe Reinoehl pointing or firing a weapon at officers before he was shot and killed. Several officers did report Reinoehl reaching for his waist before the police opened fire.[15] Witnesses stated that officers opened fire without warning.[16] President Donald Trump commended the U.S. Marshals for shooting Reinoehl[17] and described his death as "retribution"


Again, you appear to be attempting to further pro-police and right wing narratives about Reinoehl, Rittenhouse etc - which is against the terms of service of DU.
 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
10. Well, according to the prosecution "everybody takes a beating sometimes."
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 05:17 AM
Nov 2021

What a way to get the jurors on your side - was the prosecution secretly working for the defense?

Tommy Carcetti

(42,980 posts)
13. I love how some people like to imagine the 2nd and 3rd shootings happened first
Sun Nov 21, 2021, 03:40 PM
Nov 2021

And the first shooting was “something something plastic bag/reached for his gun something something.”

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
32. RIGHT ! Even the M$M wants leave out the fact that KR pointed his weapon first and then the crowd
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:08 PM
Nov 2021

... reacted.

He was literally not retreating running away from the shooting at unarmed people, that's all kinds of screwed up.

Kaleva

(36,025 posts)
7. It's been that way for a very long time. Going back to English Common Law I believe.
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 04:15 AM
Nov 2021

Stand your Ground is relatively new but that didn't apply in this case.

Elessar Zappa

(13,456 posts)
15. Traditionally,
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:20 AM
Nov 2021

if you killed someone and claimed self-defense, you had to actually show that you legitimately believed your life was in danger. Just saying so generally didn’t cut it. For instance if I’m 6’0 230 lbs and my 5’4, 120 lb wife was beating me and I shot her dead, the authorities would arrest me for murder even if I said I feared for my life.

Solomon

(12,287 posts)
17. Yep. The old reasonable fear of imminent death
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:04 AM
Nov 2021

has been watered down, way way down. Years ago i doubt a skateboard would have been justification. And in the Zimmerman case, it was Trayon "armed with a sidewalk."

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
27. Reasonable fear of death...
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 02:16 PM
Nov 2021

Or serious bodily injury has been the standard in most jurisdictions for some time. Sidewalks, skateboards and fists are all capable.

Solomon

(12,287 posts)
29. Let's see. If i'm in a fight, would i want a skateboard
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 02:40 PM
Nov 2021

or an Ar-15? Yes, I think I'd rather have a sidewalk than a pistol.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
30. I'm not sure what point you're making
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 02:43 PM
Nov 2021

A firearm is certainly a more effective weapon. So would a bat, a knife or any number of other items. None of which means a skateboard isn't easily capable of severely injuring someone or even killing them or that someone in possession of a firearm must not use it when his attacker has an inferior weapon.

Lucid Dreamer

(584 posts)
73. Zeitghost, you've done a pretty good job of explaining the situation.
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 12:56 AM
Nov 2021

It is hard to explain to people how the situation changes dynamically in many self-defense situations.

[In most states] you can't have the claim of innocence if you start a fight. But if you abandon the conflict and retreat, then you regain your innocence. If the target of your attack then pursues you and threatens you with death or great bodily harm your right to self defense is restored.

You write in your post #70:

WI law clearly gives him the right to self defense as soon as he stops and retreats. The moment he retreats and Rosenbaum advances on him (after threatening to kill him), Rosenbaum becomes the aggressor and Rittenhouse regains his right to defend himself with force


My state is very similar. I teach self-defense classes in a state a little farther south of WI, but the laws in both states have the same impact. The posters here that have prejudged the case are unlikely to change their minds ever. They make entertaining posts as uninformed social justice warriors. But they would make lousy jurors.

pfitz59

(10,029 posts)
8. The 'Castle Doctrine' morphed into 'Stand Your Ground'
Sat Nov 20, 2021, 04:38 AM
Nov 2021

into "I'm a whiny little pissant playing dress-up and just shit myself"

Response to Kablooie (Original post)

Amishman

(5,523 posts)
16. Its not quite that simple
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:58 AM
Nov 2021

The key to the Rittenhouse case is his being chased. The law skews hard in favor of the one trying to flee.

We will see this shortly in the Arbery case. The fact that the three dirtbags chased their victim is going to ensure a guilty verdict there.

Amishman

(5,523 posts)
25. and it did, all three guilty as predicted
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 01:50 PM
Nov 2021

If you read into the evidence and laws, a lot of high profile jury decisions make a lot more sense than the popular narrative would suggest. (That being said you still do get some shockers once in a while, Casey Anthony being a notable example)

Solomon

(12,287 posts)
18. It all started with Clint Eastwood: "Go ahead. Make my day".
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 08:10 AM
Nov 2021

I remember the ominous feeling that crept over me when that movie and philosophy came out during the Reagan era.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
39. The fundamentals of self defense law
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:22 PM
Nov 2021

Goes back much farther than Dirty Harry. Especially the ones at play in the most recent cases being discussed.

 

cinematicdiversions

(1,969 posts)
75. You mean Reagan the Governor. Cause Dirty Harry is from 1971.
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 02:53 AM
Nov 2021

We were not in Vietnam when Reagan was president.

Response to Kablooie (Original post)

Initech

(99,757 posts)
22. No, this is what the NRA has wrought on society.
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 12:50 PM
Nov 2021

They are a cancer. It's time to deliver a dose of some much needed chemo.

WarGamer

(11,667 posts)
23. Two of the three victims literally had their hand on the barrel of the rifle...
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 12:53 PM
Nov 2021

Last edited Wed Nov 24, 2021, 05:28 PM - Edit history (1)

And one struck KR with a skateboard to the head.

The Rittenhouse case isn't the best case to argue against self-defense laws as they're written today.

But I think everyone should support their State Legislature modifying State Laws regarding open carry, guns at protests and self defense laws itself.

For example, some States don't even require a "duty to retreat" for self defense.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
34. He pointed his weapon at them first, I love how so many people are leaving that out of narrative!!!
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:11 PM
Nov 2021

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
43. And It's A Shame That Blow Didn't Kill The Punk, Sir
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 03:26 PM
Nov 2021

The little shit went looking to kill and got his wish.

WarGamer

(11,667 posts)
49. The irony is...
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 05:27 PM
Nov 2021

If the skateboard blow HAD killed KR...

Huber would have ALSO had a legitimate right to "self-defense" and deserved acquittal.

The letter of the Law suggests that KR, Huber and Grosskreuz ALL had the right to self-defense.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
51. I Agree, Sir
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 05:51 PM
Nov 2021

Which makes Wisconsin law on the subject something of a circle-jerk.

Personally, I do not think the punk deserved a right to self-defense after shooting a man he did not have to shoot.

I've been in some tight scrapes, and would not be surprised if you have too, so I expect we both understand the difference between what a man can do and what he needs to do.

And it's best not to get me started on the idiocy of Mr. Grosskreuz --- if you take out a gun, be ready to pull the trigger. If you can get the thing out in the face of a man who's got one in his hands already, that is a sign of some deity's favor, and insults same if you do not take advantage to the fullest of such Heaven-sent opportunity.

WarGamer

(11,667 posts)
52. I like to think of my home state of California
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 05:53 PM
Nov 2021

Anyone with a gun in public is a 9-1-1 call waiting to happen.

We need to restrict public firearm carry NOT expand it...

State legislatures can do this.

How about a "no-carry" exception for all protests and demonstrations? No good can come from being armed in a charged environment.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
58. You can open carry here in CA
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 07:02 PM
Nov 2021

Anywhere it is legal to discharge that firearm or on private property with the consent of the owner. Which makes a lot of sense compared to Wisconsin's anywhere, anytime which in my opinion directly caused this mess.

hardluck

(623 posts)
72. Most states do not require a duty to retreat
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 12:55 AM
Nov 2021

Stand your ground, either by case law for statute, is the majority rule in the US.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
28. This kid would have carried a pistol if he was truly just afraid
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 02:35 PM
Nov 2021

and wanted a form a self-defense.

Like one one of his victims did.

Zeitghost

(3,664 posts)
85. No
Thu Nov 25, 2021, 09:07 PM
Nov 2021

It was legal to open carry a rifle. No machine guns were involved. Unlicensed concealed carry of a handgun would have also been illegal.

Stuart G

(38,229 posts)
65. Maybe...but we also breed the ..."GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY"..do you know who Jonas Salk is? I do.
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 09:35 PM
Nov 2021

Where does he fall in?...How about someone named George Washington? Do you know who he was?

A guy from Illinois who could really write..."Four Score and Seven Years Ago.." Do you know who wrote that?

Stuart G

(38,229 posts)
62. Always up to the jury....Always..!!!!!...Bill of Rights!! Entitled to .."Trial by Jury"
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 09:09 PM
Nov 2021

See the U.S. Constitution...something called...Bill of Rights...trial by jury?

Is that correct? Or am I making that up?

Stuart G

(38,229 posts)
64. Does it say somewhere that the Constitution...Is the "Supreme Law of the Land"
Wed Nov 24, 2021, 09:19 PM
Nov 2021

Who the hell made that up?....Some fool?..Stupid fool?

These fools that made up the Constitution couldn't have done anything right?...

Were they really that smart in creating a set of laws..that would last a while?

Really?....



for a small nation to become a great nation, you got to be kidding?...

And....did this nation admit people from other nations seeking freedom, justice and life.........................
.

..................LIKE MY GRANDPARENTS WHO CAME HERE IN 1910?...WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT TO GET IN?

....................TO BE ABLE TO READ A LANGUAGE..(ANY LANGUAGE)... (do you get the picture?)

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