Im sick of christians jamming their religion down peoples throats

[rdking647]

a senator in indiana has introduced a bill that allows schools to require the lords prayer
what a crock of shit. Im sick of christians trying to jam their beliefs down others throats..
enough

the senators that introduced this bill should be run out of office on a rail
http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2012/IN/IN0251.1.html

[rfranklin]

1. Typical election year bullshit...they like to get people to the polls with these issues...

I am sure that senator knows that such a thing is unConstitutional to the max. There is no gray area.

[rdking647]

11. since the the bill is

to recognize the importance of spiritual development in establishing good character im sure they wont have any problem with substituting this for the lords prayer

In the name of Allah, the most beneficent the most merciful.
All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
The most beneficent, the most merciful.
The lord of the day of Judgement.
Thee alone do we worship and thee alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the right path.
The path of those upon whom thou has bestowed favors, Not of those who thou has cursed once nor of those who have gone astray.

[JerseygirlCT]

57. Exactly nt

[BiggJawn]

61. You give the Senator too damn much credit.

This *IS* Indiana, after all, the state where any young person can achieve membership in the "House of Bubbas" purely on merit of being the richest farmer, grocer, or car dealer in their district.

They got a check pinned to a letter from some group that probably has "Family" in their name asking that the good Bubba introduce their bill.

We also had a bill introduced that would levee a $25 fine on anyone mangling the singing of the national anthem.

We also had another bill introduced that would outlaw the sale of alcoholic beverages in any "adult" business where you can see semi-naked people dance. Why? I dunno, maybe they figure without beer, nobody will wanna watch the boobies jiggle, and they'll go out of business.

Welcome to Indiana. Please set your watch back to 1951...

[patrice]

2. The funny part of it is that they'll breed weaker Christians for it.

[jberryhill]

4. They already have

This kind of thing is the result.

[patrice]

99. Too true! nt

[unblock]

3. hey, quit trying to impose your godless tolerance on others!

you're denying us our first amendment right to practice governmental-imposed bigotry the way our religion demands!

[BarbaRosa]

5. and then complaining about how oppressed they are.

[Gemini Cat]

8. Yeah, they're oppressed alright

A church on practically every corner and not a decent bar in sight. Damn.

[RBInMaine]

6. Then vote for Democrats and CAMPAIGN for them too.

[Gemini Cat]

7. Shouldn't Indiana worry about the lack of jobs instead?

[mindwalker_i]

90. Oh come on dude!

If you find the Lord and Jesus, then it doesn't matter if you don't have a job and starve to death, you get to go to heaven where food is free.

I'd like a thousand tacos, a chalupa, and a Mexican pizza. And a large, orange drink!

[Blacksheep214]

96. Prove it! nm

[jody]

10. Perhaps some Christians are sick of non-Christians jamming their religious, agnostic, and atheist

beliefs down people's throats.

How can any congress and president govern a society composed of groups that hate each other over divisive, polarizing political issues?

Humanist Manifesto III says "Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness" and :

[Nevernose]

13. To the best of my knowledge

There have been no American politicians who recently proposed a bill to force all children in the community to recite a pledge swearing there was no God. When there is, feel free to lump atheists and agnostics into the heading "intolerant."

This isn't stating one's personal beliefs, this is about how Christians in this country often expect everybody else to bend to their wills and follow the tenets of (their particular version of) Christianity, usually in public schools.

[jody]

17. Good point re pledge but some Christians oppose existing laws making them pay taxes that

are used to pay for abortions.

We could keep this up but I don't know how to find a compromise for groups that are divided over polarizing issues like the pledge and abortion ones you and I used.

[Tsiyu]

22. And I hate tax money being used for war

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2012, 08:38 PM - Edit history (1)

and to subsidize the profanely rich.

One would also think that if people don't want taxpayer funded abortion, they'd be more amenable to taxpayer-funded contraceptives.

Forcing the Lord's prayer in school is no way to address the things you cite nor is any reasonable cause for this waste of money and time - charged as always to the taxpayer.

[jody]

23. We both hate our taxes being used for war and corporate subsidies. That doesn't answer

a question that haunts me, "How can any congress or president govern a society that is bitterly divided over polarizing issues?"

[Tsiyu]

29. It's not up to government to adjudicate every squabble

Government's place - according to our Constitution - is to guarantee us the right to freedom of religion and to have no federal or state-sponsored "official" faith.

We've had the same polarizing issues for hundreds of years- and even worse ones like slavery, prohibition and women's suffrage - and still the republic stands.

I'm curious where you're going with your questions. Should we give into the fundies so there isn't any conflict?

[jody]

32. But it is "up to government to adjudicate every squabble" that is a divisive, polarizing political

issue.

[Tsiyu]

35. When a Christian oversteps the bounds

and demands THEIR religion be state-sponsored, the goverment's case is already made. The government merely enforces the existing standard.

There is much more to do to enforce the Constitution - for gay people and for contraceptive availability - but every issue that divides is not deemed fodder for a lawsuit.

[jody]

37. Do you object when someone oversteps the bounds and demands that THEIR support of a particular

extreme of a divisive, polarizing political issue become the law of the land and all compelled to pay for and openly embrace THEIR position?

Which divisive, polarizing political issues do you want government to enforce your narrow view?

[Tsiyu]

40. Give an example

I can't understand you, sorry. Please clarify what you're asking.

Maybe that will answer my question as well.

[jody]

43. Please read the OP and #10. If you don't understand that then I can't help you. nt

[Tsiyu]

44. I wasn't asking for any "help" from you

I was asking you to "help" yourself by rephrasing your question in a more intelligible form so that I could answer it for you, as YOU requested.

I believe in freedom of choice.

I also believe in the freedom to use a copout when we are losing an argument.....


Peace

[jody]

47. OK, I can't help you and I don't need help from anyone. Have a great evening and goodbye. nt

[MedicalAdmin]

89. I'm nit sure what you are askIng either

As such I would appreciate it if you would consider rephrasing your question or further clarifying your main theme.

[Hugabear]

106. So complaining about creation being taught in school is akin to forcing atheism on others?

I don't follow your logic here.

How is the OP an attempt to force atheism or agnosticism down anyone's throat?

[RainDog]

30. no one wants to force christians to get abortions

christians want to force others to participate in their religion.

there is no comparison between the two actions.

christians act to force their views on others - no one is telling christians they cannot believe this or that - they're just saying they are not allowed to proselytize to others via government institutions.

and that's what's offensive to them.

see? that's why people come to detest those who think their religion, like sharia, is supposed to apply to everyone in a nation.

[jody]

33. I said some who oppose abortions object to their taxes being used to pay for abortions.

Thomas Jefferson said "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."

Some take that to include using their taxes to pay for things they oppose such as war and abortions.

[RainDog]

36. but the reality is that people with all sorts of view have to do this all the time

christians aren't special in this regard.

and, in truth, Jefferson didn't say tax for actions - he said for opinions. so, that's really an argument against public radio and tv, I suppose...

[jody]

41. In #30 you said "no one wants to force christians to get abortions". I said

"some Christians oppose existing laws making them pay taxes that are used to pay for abortions."

Your issue is different from the two polarizing issues raised by Nevernose in #13 and I in #17.

[Blacksheep214]

97. Tax money does not pay for abortions

Show us where it does please.

[jody]

122. State abortion funding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Amendment

[markpkessinger]

118. Thomas Jefferson isn't the authority here - the Constitution (authored by Madison mostly) is

In a republic, no individual gets to pick and choose exactly how his/her tax dollars are spent. But so long as that person is duly and fully democratically enfranchised, a claim of "tyranny" is nonsense.

Don't get me wrong about Jefferson. He is an enormously important historical figure who had a huge impact during the formation of the country. But THANK GOD we also had the tempering influence of Madison!

[Puzzledtraveller]

105. Is that "some" or "all"?

"christians want to force others to participate in their religion. "

I don't for one.

Want to force anyone to do anything.

[RainDog]

123. some. generally of the right wing persuasion

pardon me for not being more specific. my frame of reference is generally those who are trying to put creationism into science classes or specific prayers into public schools.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Here's the compromise: LEAD PRAYERS IN CHURCH, NOT PUBLIC SCHOOL.

And if you don't like abortion, or gay marriage, don't have one.

[jody]

50. Brillant, obviously you have a great future in politics. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

58. I do. Because most Americans want government to focus on FIXING SHIT

not trying to shoehorn prayer back into schools like it's nineteen fifty fucking four.

[BiggJawn]

62. +1

[RainDog]

64. + a gamillion

[Union Scribe]

15. Cool poster. nt

[Tanelorn]

18. Love this graphic

Woud be great to use in comparative religious study, in a social studies class of course.

[jody]

20. I remain amazed that a single concept is in great religions and also the Humanist Manifesto. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

49. How? How indeed. If only there were some fundamental guiding principle in the Constitution

that could tell us how to handle these matters?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause

[HuckleB]

71. This is a crap argument in the United States.

I couldn't even consider running for office for one reason: I don't believe in God.

That's just plain crap.

[jody]

75. You say "I don't believe in God" but Gallup polls say 79% of US citizens list a religion

and 55% say God is very important in their life. See http://www.gallup.com/poll/1690/religion.aspx

[HuckleB]

82. And somehow you think there's a valid point in your post?

Really?

[jody]

83. Valid points are invalid if they fall upon deaf ears. Have a great evening. nt

[HuckleB]

87. Nice try.

You completely ignore the reality, and, in fact, try to use the reality as a justification for the unjustifiable.

That's just not ok.

Period.

[HuckleB]

91. PS: 5 Founding Fathers Whose Skepticism About Christianity Would Make Them Unelectable Today

http://www.alternet.org/belief/153727/5_founding_fathers_whose_skepticism_about_christianity_would_make_them_unelectable_today/

[Humanist_Activist]

76. Can you give an example, or are you just spouting BS? n/t

[jody]

77. Example of what? nt

[Humanist_Activist]

78. Of non-Christians jamming their beliefs down Christians' throats.

[jody]

80. See #17. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

84. First, that's anti-choice propoganda that has been demonstrated to be not true...

in addition, our tax dollars go into a common pool that funds all sorts of things all sorts of people oppose. Its not shoving beliefs down anyone's throat if its constitutional. Pacifists still fund the military, while militarists fund the Peace Corps.

Do you want to try again, or is it going to be more BS?

[jody]

85. Have a great evening. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

86. So, in other words, you got nothing.

What do you get out of contributing nothing to this thread?

[Marrah_G]

101. Really- do you find that often?

[Hatchling]

103. As usual, we pagans are left out.

Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
An' it harm none,
Do what ye will.
Blessed Be to thee.

[alterfurz]

116. can I get a witness?!

[jody]

120. Thanks for comment. I promise to always include it in the future.

[Puzzledtraveller]

104. cool

[Arugula Latte]

110. Oh please. What an unbalanced comparison.

Where are the militant atheists out knocking on doors, erecting atheist meeting halls on every corner and pushing atheist legislation?

[sarcasmo]

12. All churches should be taxed on there chraltan profits.

[Union Scribe]

14. So, fuck the Constitution right?

People amaze me with shit like this.

[Humanist_Activist]

25. Actually tax exemption for religious organizations puts the state...

in a position to determine what is or is not a "legitimate" religion. Which, to me, seems unconstitutional.

[jody]

54. Agree and I declare I am a religion and entitled to all the benefits of religious institutions. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

74. A christian religious group that wants tax exemption has a much easier time than, for example a...

Wiccan religious group in getting such exemption approved.

The fact that we put the state in this position in the first place is inexcusable.

[HuckleB]

73. Uh, church tax exemptions have been determined to be constitutional.

They are not, however, protected by the Constitution.

[HuckleB]

72. Yes, they should. -eom-

[Puzzledtraveller]

107. you wouldnt want that

[deacon_sephiroth]

111. agreed

tax the rich and tax the liars... er churches.

[dembotoz]

16. i think i would give my child written permission to modify the words in any way he saw fit

maybe we could write it together

creative writting anyone?????

[Tsiyu]

19. If fundy Christians would spend more time doing what Jesus said

instead of trying to prove their superiority and SuperKrischunness, they might get a few converts.

When you have to force a religion on others, you only get resentment and lawsuits. The money for this bill should be spent to feed the poor...

[jody]

21. OP attacked "christians" but you attacked a subset "fundy Christians". Do you support OP's attack

on all "christians" or only a portion of that group, your "fundy Christians"?

[Tsiyu]

26. WE've had this discussion here before on DU

Are Christians proposing these laws? Then they are open to criticism.

I now qualify fundy Christians, because, like REpublicans, they are against everything Democrats and most DUers hold dear. If they are on this board, oh well. Against the teaching of evolution. Against reproductive choice, against marriage equality.

Let me ask you: Do you support this legislation? Why do you seem to be defending this crappy, discriminatory, unConstitutional law?

And why do other faiths in America almost never try to force their religion on others?

If the shoe fits, is all I'm saying. I'm sick to death of some Christians claiming oppression. They have NO CLUE what oppression really means. They aren't in concentration camps or forced to worhip in secret in this country. They are mainstream and ubiquitous.

[jody]

31. I defend no one. If you were president, how would you use your position to find a

compromise for divisive, polarizing political issues?

Please pick one and explain how you would forge a compromise.

[Tsiyu]

38. I would point to the Constitution

which clearly states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

The issue in the OP is clearly already decided by the law of the land. If that is not enough rationale for militant Christians, I would suggest they move to Afghanistan. In other words, they are free to move to a place where they do not live under such a Constitution, which the president is SWORN TO UPHOLD.

They can form their own theocracies in places where theocracies are welcome and encouraged.

[RainDog]

39. +1 n/t

[jody]

42. Thanks for your opinion but what has SCOTUS said? Please cite case, link, and passage. nt

[Tsiyu]

51. Whatever your agenda is

I repectfully suggest you do your own research.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Let's see. How about McCollum v. Board of Education (1947)?

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1947/1947_90

the Court found that the Champaign system was "beyond question a utilization of the tax-established and tax-supported public school system to aid religious groups and to spread the faith."

Or Wallace v. Jaffree (1984)?

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1984/1984_83_812

The Court held that Alabama's passage of the prayer and meditation statute was not only a deviation from the state's duty to maintain absolute neutrality toward religion, but was an affirmative endorsement of religion. As such, the statute clearly lacked any secular purpose as it sought to establish religion in public schools, thereby violating the First Amendment's Establishment Clause.

How about Abington School District v. Shempp (1962)?

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1962/1962_142

The required activities encroached on both the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment since the readings and recitations were essentially religious ceremonies and were "intended by the State to be so."

[white_wolf]

88. The Court has establishd the Lemon test for such cases and this law would fail the test.

The Lemon Test has three parts and a law must pass all three parts to be considered constitutional. The three parts are:

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion

Now tell me what is the secular legislative purpose for this law? If you can provide that then feel free to answer the second part and the then third.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. Compromise? I won't come into your church and talk about evolution or quantum physics

so keep your fucking mandated expressions of faith out of my kids' public schools. There's your compromise.

Thanks.

[Hugabear]

108. +1 - well said!

I'm sure people would be up in arms if a state passed a law requiring evolution be taught in Sunday Schools

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Yeah, it's important that we remember who the true "victims" are here, huh?

Namely, the poor picked on Christian majority who only want -sniff!- nothing more than to have their religion 'respected'. In public schools. By people who don't believe it. And to be able to put Christmas Displays on courthouse lawns. Because the several million acres of (tax exempt!) church property in this country aren't enough.

Sniff!

[Quantess]

24. They should work on rounding up some JOBS for the people,

not wasting time with nonsense like this.

What the fuck do we pay them for anyway? No wonder congress' approval rating is under 10%

[Malikshah]

27. Many a poster/sign on this very subject is out there. Makes a great placard

Paraphrasing it:

Religion is like a penis.

Nice to have one.

Nice to be proud of it.

But don't whip it out and start waving it in everyone's face.

And, stop trying to shove down our children's throats.

[arthritisR_US]

28. Sounds like they are desperate to find a wedge issue. n/t

[BiggJawn]

63. Wedge issues is what the World's Worst Legislature is all about this year

From the biggie of "Right to Work&quot for less) to that damn national anthem distraction.

Politics has gotten so expensive that the only people who can afford to run for office are apparently the inbred idiotic idle rich.

[arthritisR_US]

95. I share your sentiments! I have to fight my cynicism. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. I'm a Christian who is against school prayer

In fact, most of the country never had school prayer.

It was rarely mentioned after the 1962 and 1963 Supreme Court decisions until the Reagan administration, when all of a sudden, every fundamentalist church was agitating for it.

All the fundamentalists who are so eager for school prayer should look at the example of Western Europe. In some countries, religious instruction is required in school. Look how that has turned out.

[jody]

46. "most of the country never had school prayer"! "most" covers lots of states and may have been true

after the 1950s but that was not true IMO before then.

I remember lots of prayers being said in school during WWII because many had family, relatives, or friends in that war.

Times change but when one's life or the lives of close ones are threatened, it's amazing how many offer a prayer both silent and public.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Ah, yes, the old "No Atheists in Foxholes" crock o' bigoted shit.

Tell it to Pat Tillman, jacko.

[Tsiyu]

56. And then we got some sense

And realized that forcing Jewish, Native American, Muslim, Wiccan and Atheist kids to recite prayers neither they - nor their parents -believed was Unconstitutional and discriminatory as it amounted to state-established religion.

Are you suggesting we go back there?

[RainDog]

66. we also had segregation in the 1950s

cause things were so much easier when "others" knew their places.

[jody]

68. Agree and that was immoral. Thank goodness that my childhood companions were able to survive

those times and I treasure the hours we spend together today, particularly since we have so few years left.

Still, it brings floods of memories back from a time when we played and worked together even though we attended separate schools.

The friendship that formed from the cradle has become enduring love for each other as can only happen when respect is exchanged and ages like wine after 76 years to much more than mere words can ever describe.

[RainDog]

69. the point being that just because America did something in the past

that does not make it a useful argument for the present.

[jody]

70. I never said it did. So you believe US history particularly SCOTUS decisions should be ignored

and start anew with each issue.

Novel idea but doesn't that demand that we reject the concept of inalienable/unalienable rights that preexist our Constitution as enumerated in the first eight Amendments and cited as unenumerated rights in the Ninth Amendment and that government is obligated to protect?

If you don't intend to throw out all history with your "just because America did something in the past" then explain where you draw the line?

[RainDog]

79. judicial precedent is not the same as cultural history

we do a lot of things in our culture differently because of (relatively) quick changes in our cultural views.

cultural tradition is not a body of law.

[jody]

81. Have a great evening. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

114. You've been schooled in this thread.

All your arguments have been shot down and riddled with holes.

Keep Church out of State. Amen.

[GoneOffShore]

119. That American Humanist symbol?

I don't get why you're using it as an avatar.

[Warren DeMontague]

100. What SCOTUS decisions are you talking about, buddy?

I linked to 3, upthread.

How about you produce the one you think makes official religious observances in public schools permissible? I'll wait.

[BiggJawn]

67. 22.5 million soldiers died in WWII

Them prayers sure worked good, didn't they?

Oh, I forgot... Sometimes GAWD's answer is "Hell. No."

[dawg]

112. Me too.

I support the right of students to pray at school if they want to, but I'm 100% opposed to organized prayers led by teachers or other adults.

Separation of Church and State used to be a key point of Southern Baptist dogma. They pretty much dropped it when it became inconvenient for them and the politicians that the grand poobahs of the denomination want to support.

[Puzzledtraveller]

115. Yes, much is misunderstood

same as the concept that all christians are right wing and against democratic ideals. There is no basis in fact in generalizations such as this. Democrats make up a sizable majority of those who identify as catholic for instance. A shift in the role of religion in public life also occured during the civil war era, with some suprising contradictions to what we are led to believe things were like back then. Methodists, Episcopalians, for exmaple are largely idealogically liberal, as are many others.

[Odin2005]

45. Indiana is Alabama with snow.

[Ineeda]

59. Exploding heads

If they proposed that schoolchildren offer a morning prayer or a reading from a sacred text from all different religions or spiritual philosophies, with a recitation on every alternate day that begins, "I do not believe in a god..." then I might not object, and it might even pass the Constitutionality test. Monday: Judaism, Tuesday: atheism, Wednesday: Christian, Thursday: atheism, Friday: Islam, Monday: atheism, Tuesday: Wicca, etc.

[BigDemVoter]

65. Good Point. . .

but I would expand it by stating that I'm sick of members of ANY religion trying to ram their religion down others' throats! Just my 2-cents worth!

[Logical]

92. The bible tells them to do that!

[HuckleB]

94. It also tells them not to do that.

[opihimoimoi]

93. Rel = Division = Hate = Fantasy = delusion = mutual destruction....

= STUUUPID.....

[DonCoquixote]

98. http://bible.cc/matthew/6-6.htm

6“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

7“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give us this day our daily bread.

12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

funny how the xtians forget the actual prayer

[LanternWaste]

102. I'm sick of people jamming their...

I'm sick of people jamming their politics/philosophy/musical tastes down people's throats.

[deacon_sephiroth]

109. we all are

The death throes of a dying breed

[Ganja Ninja]

113. Perhaps we need a law that says ...

When a law maker introduces a bill that is deliberately unconstitutional for the purposes of pandering it is grounds for expulsion.

[opihimoimoi]

117. Religion = hate = divide = weaken = loss = waste = fucked up

&feature=related

Come, we go HEAL>>>>

[Magleetis]

121. I'm sick of anyone who doesn't

know the difference between belief and fact.